Depression

steddyeddy

t0mm13b wrote: »

Thats your prerogative.... which is fine... but don't tell us by spouting about some evolutionary psychologist....

this is as real as it gets and has nothing to do with the "evolutionary" crackpot theory... it can happen to anyone as it happened to myself included... it will bite you hard in the arse... this thread is about sharing in order to get rid of the stigma and lay bare the difficulties of it... who needs to know "animals suffer with it"....

Some who have posted previously can feel suicidal and tbqh what you said does not help one bit at all...

im sorry man but thats not what i meant at all i suffered from depression and this helps me and i believe it. i never said depression wasnt tough. i started with depression is nothing to be ashamed of its natural and for some reason you think its ok to attack my opinion.

t0mm13b

steddyeddy wrote: »

im sorry man but thats not what i meant at all i suffered from depression and this helps me and i believe it. i never said depression wasnt tough. i started with depression is nothing to be ashamed of its natural and for some reason you think its ok to attack my opinion.

Don't twist this up and try put it back on me..... :mad: read your posting again and think how would a sufferer feel after reading it.... that was the point I'm making... some are not capable of actually digesting your posting.... am sorry if you think I'm attacking... fine but don't push it down on others into thinking that it's a "mechanism from threat" and quote b.s.... tell me this

It helped me to realize that its natural and evolved as a prtective mechanisim to help us.

- how does that help someone....?

anniehoo

WesternNight wrote: »

Eh. What? Are you a physician?

I could have trouble sleeping because of some pain or discomfort somewhere in my body. I could be regularly tearful because I'm a ****ty relationship, or in a job I hate. I could be tired on a regular basis because of an excessively busy schedule, or because of a bad diet. I could have all of that happening at the same time, for more than a month and I would not be clinically depressed. It's not as simple as that.

This is part of the problem here, folks.

+1 this "ticking the box" is where the grey zone comes into play and why its such a god damn confusing condition to diagnose and treat. I could tick a lot of the boxes depending on whats going on in my life. Im a night owl too. Im sh!t in the mornings,worry too much,sensitive and am quite "moody",but i personally think this is part of my nature and i know myself quite well i think to know when im "off".Im also funny,friendly,sarcastic,stubborn,loving etc blah blah. Its all of those things that make me...well, me. Its what brought me to the docs all those years ago and probably why i dont put myself into categories and self diagnose either (or try not to). Seeing someone with true depression is like watching someone disappear before your very eyes.Ive first hand experience of this debilitating condition take over someones life, being wrongly and continually medicated, passed from doctor to pyschiatrist to pyschologist and back again and NEVER getting an answer. Its a minefield! She had a hysterectomy in her late 30s and i dont think she coped very well,counselling rather than instant meds wouldve been my guess to very honest.

I know with any disease or disorder there has to be a significant list of symptoms present before diagnosis, but ticking boxes can be a dangerous thing. I dont have any answers,if i did my mother wouldnt be where she is now. My only regret is getting so frustrated with her lack of trying (at all) when she has been given endless expensive help over the years. She gave up totally.We dont speak at all now. Im disillusioned with so called professional healthcare people who medicated her instantly,gave her ECT (i disagreed with it at the time but i was too young to get a say) and passed her from billy to jack and chopped and changed meds continuously. Ive now realised that they tried what they were supposed to do but didnt see the person being destroyed in the process.

/this thread has been a big eye opener. Dont think ive ever written so much in AH ever lol

scientific1982

t0mm13b wrote: »

Thats your prerogative.... which is fine... but don't tell us by spouting about some evolutionary psychologist....

this is as real as it gets and has nothing to do with the "evolutionary" crackpot theory... it can happen to anyone as it happened to myself included... it will bite you hard in the arse... this thread is about sharing in order to get rid of the stigma and lay bare the difficulties of it... who needs to know "animals suffer with it"....

Some who have posted previously can feel suicidal and tbqh what you said does not help one bit at all... and your posting sounds condescending and belittling those who were open about it and shared on this thread.....

In fairness to the poster, I dont think he was trying to belittle those that suffer from depression. I've been clinically depressed on a number of occassions and I didnt find his post in the least bit condescending.

Princess Peach

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

For what its worth I decided to tell my mother today.

Apparently I may have:

Iron deficiency, take vitamin tablets!
Have been stuck in my room too much
Should read the secret
Should go back to mass
Too much time on the internet
Should try holistic medicine
Should burn lavender
Hormonal imbalance, also explains thinning hair

After I shot down all those things she finally suggested I should go to the doctor, who would do a blood test which would explain everything!

The best bit was when she said "What do you have to feel down about?" Which has made me feel pretty guilty. The worse thing is that she really means all those things and is trying to help.

The fact that I expected that reaction means it doesnt really bother me.

Dunno why Im posting about it here really, thought someone might be interested.

Read the secret :pac: Mammies make me laugh. Well done though! My parents know nothing. They do get a bit worried when I don't get out of bed somedays, but they don't really question much more.

I did mean to tell them, but I just kept putting it off and I just feel its a bit late now to tell them I've been on medication for over a year. Also at the beginning having to live with them was a big thing that was getting me down, and I didn't really want to make them feel bad. Don't think I'll ever tell them tbh, just don't see it happening. Think my brother has odd suspicions, his room is next to mine and he's heard me cry way to many times. Thank God for men's aversion to emotion, that would be an awkward situation!

You should be proud, thats such a brave thing

WesternNight

steddyeddy wrote: »

im sorry man but thats not what i meant at all i suffered from depression and this helps me and i believe it. i never said depression wasnt tough. i started with depression is nothing to be ashamed of its natural and for some reason you think its ok to attack my opinion.

When you say natural, what exactly do you mean? Can you link us to whatever source you have?

scientific1982

WesternNight wrote: »

When you say natural, what exactly do you mean? Can you link us to whatever source you have?

Heres an article on the subject

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary

flutered

mine comes in cycles, nothing i can do about it, a person i worked with, also we were thrown togeather for days at the time, would never talk with me about it, i often tried to talk with them about it, they just shut up and walked away, the other downer for me is some one who is close to me telling me to get off my arse, go off the medication, its only making you sleepy (i am on 300 mls of effexor each morning), this happens all the time.

t0mm13b

flutered wrote: »

mine comes in cycles, nothing i can do about it, a person i worked with, also we were thrown togeather for days at the time, would never talk with me about it, i often tried to talk with them about it, they just shut up and walked away, the other downer for me is some one who is close to me telling me to get off my arse, go off the medication, its only making you sleepy (i am on 300 mls of effexor each morning), this happens all the time.

Awww man... are you aware of the cycles and what triggers or causes the cycles? No one has a right to tell you to get off your arse... quite frankly, that can be a devastating blow when you're looking for support.... The effexor does make me a bit tired (constantly yawning....) but mine is low dosage - 75mg... have you spoken to your GP about that strength of your medication?

Wolfe Tone

Princess Peach wrote: »

Read the secret :pac: Mammies make me laugh. Well done though! My parents know nothing. They do get a bit worried when I don't get out of bed somedays, but they don't really question much more.

I did mean to tell them, but I just kept putting it off and I just feel its a bit late now to tell them I've been on medication for over a year. Also at the beginning having to live with them was a big thing that was getting me down, and I didn't really want to make them feel bad. Don't think I'll ever tell them tbh, just don't see it happening. Think my brother has odd suspicions, his room is next to mine and he's heard me cry way to many times. Thank God for men's aversion to emotion, that would be an awkward situation!

You should be proud, thats such a brave thing

I laughed when she suggested it! Im not sure how I feel after telling them, dunno yet if it was the right thing to do or not. I asked her not to tell the father, or anyone else.

Wibbs

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont think depression is anything to be ashamed off, a lot of animals get depression. A top antropologist said thats depression was our ancestors way of telling them to stay in the cave. It helped me to realize that its natural and evolved as a prtective mechanisim to help us. The same with anxiety, whenever i get anxious about something i tell myself that the anxiety is trying to help me but that doesnt mean im facing a threat, it just means theres a system in place to warn me in case theres a threat.

I wouldnt agree with that, or at least not take that end point from it. Point 1, animals don't suffer depression as we know it, or mental stress diseases, except in captivity. So it's not a "natural" state as such. Point 2, maybe the anthropologist should look at data that shows far less depression in human communities living close to the so called "natural" state. Plus then one considers the history of our species and how much of a risk taking bunch we are. If we had stayed in the cave we wouldnt be here. We're also told that one in four are predisposed genetically/biologically to depression, yet studies of hunter gatherers(who can have very stressful lives in many ways) show much lower levels of the condition. You'll notice the scientific american article cites no evidence in its links for depression symptoms in small tribal communities. Just states it exists.

I also really don't buy the widespread dosing of people with mild depression with very fcuking heavy duty chemicals, in particular the SSRI's and MAOI's. Its my firm(if unpopular belief) that these are being handed out with the same wild abandon as antibiotics were up to quite recently. I guarantee if this forum was around in the 70's and I suggested antibiotics should be more tightly controlled I'd have been laughed at. Now we know. It's my humble that we'll reap a similar bitter harvest from the SSRIs. Like antibiotics they're a very useful therapy for an intractable case, but like you shouldnt pump someone with penicillin for a pimple on the nose, dropping Prozac on someone moping over a breakup or a bad term in college etc is equally bloody daft. These drugs have side effects and lots of them too. They make long term changes to brain chemistry and best of all folks, in the cases of mild to medium cases of depression, they're as effective as placebo. Indeed placebo is better in the case of mild.

Personally, cards on the table? I've known quite a few people who suffered from this illness. Two bipolar types and I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.:( Others with severe clinical depression, 2 I buried after they died by their own hand. On the other hand I've also met quite a number who self described and were clinicallly described as depressives and it was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible. It is my firm opinion there are way more of the latter than the former and the over medicalisation of it does not help.

steddyeddy

t0mm13b wrote: »

Don't twist this up and try put it back on me..... :mad: read your posting again and think how would a sufferer feel after reading it.... that was the point I'm making... some are not capable of actually digesting your posting.... am sorry if you think I'm attacking... fine but don't push it down on others into thinking that it's a "mechanism from threat" and quote b.s.... tell me this

- how does that help someone....?

I said i get depressed and stated what helped me and you said what load of poppcock, stop lecturering me. you nicely finish off by telling me what helps me deal with depression is bs.

Wolfe Tone

t was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible.

Wibbs I gotta say Im pretty shocked.

steddyeddy

WesternNight wrote: »

When you say natural, what exactly do you mean? Can you link us to whatever source you have?

scientific kindly posted a link to what i mean, when i said depression is atural i mean it is a natural response to certain conditions that triggers changes in thinking. i dont think there is anything wrong with a person with depression and i certainly am not ashamed of it.

Princess Peach

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I laughed when she suggested it! Im not sure how I feel after telling them, dunno yet if it was the right thing to do or not. I asked her not to tell the father, or anyone else.

Yeah see my mother can't keep a secret. My dad and several others congratulated me on my first period, I think thats when I stopped talking to her about personal things! I'm not really that close to my parents. Like we get on but I wouldn't be giving them details about my personal life ever, just the main things that they would find out anyway. And we're not a family to discuss feelings, or hug or anything like that.

Well you've done it now, so I'm sure you feel a bit relieved. Guess your just in a kind of limbo now waiting to see what happens next!

WesternNight

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Wibbs I gotta say Im pretty shocked.

I'd have to agree with Wibbs about that. All the time you hear people say "I'm SO depressed today" and proceed to whinge and moan and sulk. That's not depression. The term is bandied about every day, almost always inaccurately. When someone is genuinely diagnosed with actual clinical depression and they tell someone about it, they hear it with the same ears as they hear the aforementioned "depressed" people. But it's not the same. At all. And people really need to realise that.

edit - that's really badly phrased but you get what I mean :P

Wolfe Tone

WesternNight wrote: »

I'd have to agree with Wibbs about that. All the time you hear people say "I'm SO depressed today" and proceed to whinge and moan and sulk. That's not depression. The term is bandied about every day, almost always inaccurately. When someone is genuinely diagnosed with actual clinical depression and they tell someone about it, they hear it with the same ears as they hear the aforementioned "depressed" people. But it's not the same. At all. And people really need to realise that.

edit - that's really badly phrased but you get what I mean :P

Did he not say they were clinically diagnosed?

Wolfe Tone

Princess Peach wrote: »

Yeah see my mother can't keep a secret. My dad and several others congratulated me on my first period, I think thats when I stopped talking to her about personal things! I'm not really that close to my parents. Like we get on but I wouldn't be giving them details about my personal life ever, just the main things that they would find out anyway. And we're not a family to discuss feelings, or hug or anything like that.

Well you've done it now, so I'm sure you feel a bit relieved. Guess your just in a kind of limbo now waiting to see what happens next!

Yeah thats it exactly!

scientific1982

Wibbs wrote: »

I wouldnt agree with that, or at least not take that end point from it. Point 1, animals don't suffer depression as we know it, or mental stress diseases, except in captivity. So it's not a "natural" state as such. Point 2, maybe the anthropologist should look at data that shows far less depression in human communities living close to the so called "natural" state. Plus then one considers the history of our species and how much of a risk taking bunch we are. If we had stayed in the cave we wouldnt be here. We're also told that one in four are predisposed genetically/biologically to depression, yet studies of hunter gatherers(who can have very stressful lives in many ways) show much lower levels of the condition. You'll notice the scientific american article cites no evidence in its links for depression symptoms in small tribal communities. Just states it exists.

On your first point, how do you know that animals dont suffer from a form of depression. There is a biological basis for depression i.e changes in brain chemistry, so it would be very unusual for this phenomena to be unique to humans. Also, this argument about whats "natural" and "unnatural" is pretty silly. We're part of the natural world, how could a condition that affects us or something we do be outside of that.

On your second point, what data are you referring to and what exactly is our "natural state". Yes humans are risk taking animals, but we're also pattern seeking animals with highly analytical minds. In relation to our hunter gatherer ancestors, what studies show that they had lower levels of depression and how was this quantified.

steddyeddy

I wouldnt agree with that, or at least not take that end point from it. Point 1, animals don't suffer depression as we know it, or mental stress diseases, except in captivity. So it's not a "natural" state as such. Point 2, maybe the anthropologist should look at data that shows far less depression in human communities living close to the so called "natural" state. Plus then one considers the history of our species and how much of a risk taking bunch we are. If we had stayed in the cave we wouldnt be here. We're also told that one in four are predisposed genetically/biologically to depression, yet studies of hunter gatherers(who can have very stressful lives in many ways) show much lower levels of the condition. You'll notice the scientific american article cites no evidence in its links for depression symptoms in small tribal communities. Just states it exists.

well i do think animals suffer from depression in certain circumstances, i dont however think they get it for no reason. I would say some animals get depressed after being deposed by a rival or losing a mate. The only case I have heard of tribal people becoming depressed is when they give up tribal life.

I also really don't buy the widespread dosing of people with mild depression with very fcuking heavy duty chemicals, in particular the SSRI's and MAOI's. Its my firm(if unpopular belief) that these are being handed out with the same wild abandon as antibiotics were up to quite recently. I guarantee if this forum was around in the 70's and I suggested antibiotics should be more tightly controlled I'd have been laughed at. Now we know. It's my humble that we'll reap a similar bitter harvest from the SSRIs. Like antibiotics they're a very useful therapy for an intractable case, but like you shouldnt pump someone with penicillin for a pimple on the nose, dropping Prozac on someone moping over a breakup or a bad term in college etc is equally bloody daft. These drugs have side effects and lots of them too. They make long term changes to brain chemistry and best of all folks, in the cases of mild to medium cases of depression, they're as effective as placebo. Indeed placebo is better in the case of mild.

I would agree with that altough i dont suffer from clincal depression, i just get depressed when things go bad and i find depression is my minds way of telling me that. When people are naturally going to be depressed eg after a break up or something, I dont think its healthy to mask their greiving process.

Personally, cards on the table? I've known quite a few people who suffered from this illness. Two bipolar types and I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.:( Others with severe clinical depression, 2 I buried after they died by their own hand. On the other hand I've also met quite a number who self described and were clinicallly described as depressives and it was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible. It is my firm opinion there are way more of the latter than the former and the over medicalisation of it does not help.

Sorry to hear that, i know one or two with bipolar but not closely but from what i see its a nasty illness and very painfull for friends and family of those who have it. it must be very frustrating watching someone who has it.

steddyeddy

Princess Peach wrote: »

Yeah see my mother can't keep a secret. My dad and several others congratulated me on my first period, I think thats when I stopped talking to her about personal things! I'm not really that close to my parents. Like we get on but I wouldn't be giving them details about my personal life ever, just the main things that they would find out anyway. And we're not a family to discuss feelings, or hug or anything like that.

Well you've done it now, so I'm sure you feel a bit relieved. Guess your just in a kind of limbo now waiting to see what happens next!

my parents were like that , my father even opened my letters. i felt it showed a complete lack of respect, so like you I eventually stopped telling them personal things.

sheesh

WesternNight wrote: »

Eh. What? Are you a physician?

I could have trouble sleeping because of some pain or discomfort somewhere in my body. I could be regularly tearful because I'm a ****ty relationship, or in a job I hate. I could be tired on a regular basis because of an excessively busy schedule, or because of a bad diet. I could have all of that happening at the same time, for more than a month and I would not be clinically depressed. It's not as simple as that.

This is part of the problem here, folks.

ok but do you not see you have not answered your own question there. 'assuming there is no other cause' would have been implied there - if some or all of these are present for that period of time Without obvious cause this is what i was told by a doctor when i asked about depression.

I'm not saying its fool proof but if there was no obvious reason for these symtoms. I think you might consider visiting a doctor and asking for advice.

for each of you complaints you had a reason so no that would not count.

Novella

Have to admit, I'm with Wibbs on this one. GP's hand out SSRI's and MAOI's like there's no tomorrow. It's just not on, imo. The amount of people I know who are on anti-depressants is ridiculous. There was actually a thread in tLL a while ago along the lines of, "Depression - the new trendy illness" and ya know, I don't think that's too far off.

I'm not belittling depression as an illness, I thoroughly understand how debilitating it can be, but as far as I'm concerned, a visit to your local doc should not ever be enough to diagnose it. People who are grieving being prescribed an anti-depressant, ffs. Grief! A natural process, a normal emotion. Sure, it can turn into depression, but it should not be possible to walk into your GP, say you're a bit sad and be handed a script for a month of Prozac or whatever.

Maybe that's even some of the problem in this country when it comes to mental illness. Prescriptions just flying out, the utter lack of follow-up. Depression isn't something to be taken as lightly as this. It's not good enough.

sheesh

Novella wrote: »

Have to admit, I'm with Wibbs on this one. GP's hand out SSRI's and MAOI's like there's no tomorrow. It's just not on, imo. The amount of people I know who are on anti-depressants is ridiculous. There was actually a thread in tLL a while ago along the lines of, "Depression - the new trendy illness" and ya know, I don't think that's too far off.

I'm not belittling depression as an illness, I thoroughly understand how debilitating it can be, but as far as I'm concerned, a visit to your local doc should not ever be enough to diagnose it. People who are grieving being prescribed an anti-depressant, ffs. Grief! A natural process, a normal emotion. Sure, it can turn into depression, but it should not be possible to walk into your GP, say you're a bit sad and be handed a script for a month of Prozac or whatever.

Maybe that's even some of the problem in this country when it comes to mental illness. Prescriptions just flying out, the utter lack of follow-up. Depression isn't something to be taken as lightly as this. It's not good enough.

doctors do hand it out way too much my own doctor encouraged me to keep it up for long periods too. The main message is that the doctor will provide the chemical treatment for the symptoms but you have to go out yourself to find someone to talk about it good councilors are hard to find and it does not seem to be well regulated.

WesternNight

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Did he not say they were clinically diagnosed?

Indeed. Unfortunately doctors aren't necessarily immune from jumping on the same bandwagon that lay people do.

strokemyclover

I'd like to go into more detail but I'll just say there are those who abuse the tag "Depressed". Out of respect of others I know in the same situation I'll just say the services available to those who are seriously depressed in this country are abused by attention vampires and they subsequently ruin the possible healing experience for others attending.

This is a well known personality type which goes by several different names - the one I am most familar with is the "Poor Me" personality from The Celestine Prophecy - see link below for others. People might recognise these types of personalities from the characters portrayed by Ed Norton and Helena Bonham-Carter in the film Fight Club.

All I'll say is the limited resources available in this country would produce better results if it wasn't for these people. After all, coming out of depression is about helping yourself over the longer term and not demanding others help you over a similar period of time - I have seen people attending group therapy over a period of years when one or two should be a maximum before suggesting alternative referrals to address their problems!

It's not only our health service which is a shambles in this country, that is all!

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Celestine+Prophecy.-a016399989

Mr Benevolent

t0mm13b wrote: »

Thats your prerogative.... which is fine... but don't tell us by spouting about some evolutionary psychologist....

....

Some who have posted previously can feel suicidal and tbqh what you said does not help one bit at all... and your posting sounds condescending and belittling those who were open about it and shared on this thread.....

I don't agree, his post made sense to me, and I don't see anything demeaning in it. You just flew off the handle in response to a valid comment. Odysseus has a bit of experience in this area, I'd be interested to hear his comments too.

All I'll say is the limited resources available in this country would produce better results if it wasn't for these people. After all, coming out of depression is about helping yourself over the longer term and not demanding others help you over a similar period of time - I have seen people attending group therapy over a period of years when one or two should be a maximum before suggesting alternative referrals to address their problems!

Group therapy is outdated and ineffective from what I've seen. One-to-one CBT is a good tool.

The one thing that fails utterly is talking about the past. I trained in hypnotherapy and psychoanalysis, and the key to it all was arsing around spitting Freud at the erstwhile client and suggesting madeup scenarios in the hope of getting somewhere. My trainee therapist even tried to suggest that I was abused as a kid, probably to get a rise out of me. Can't say I remember being abused. I'dve saved myself a lot of money if I listened that nagging voice telling me the whole concept was incredibly flawed bullshit.

Dionysus

t0mm13b wrote: »

Don't twist this up and try put it back on me..... :mad: read your posting again and think how would a sufferer feel after reading it.... that was the point I'm making... some are not capable of actually digesting your posting.... am sorry if you think I'm attacking... fine but don't push it down on others into thinking that it's a "mechanism from threat" and quote b.s.... tell me this

- how does that help someone....?

I think you should cut the man some slack here, t0mm. If it helps him to think about it like that, then that's what matters, what should be respected. Likewise, all of us have things which we believe help us, even if other people may not agree with them. Acceptance works in more than one way. 'This Is My truth Tell Me Yours', as the Manic Street Preachers album put it years back.

There's been a great sense of goodwill, respect and togetherness in this thread so far. That makes it very rare in Afterhours. Let's keep it that way, and articulate our dissensions in a more harmonious manner.


'Tread softly for you tread on my dreams'
- Aedh Wishes for the Cloths of Heaven (1899) W.B. Yeats

Mr Benevolent

Dionysus wrote: »

'Tread softly for you tread on my dreams'

Yates was actually moaning about Maud Gonne not putting out. Those poets were randy little bastards.

t0mm13b

Dionysus wrote: »

I think you should cut the man some slack here, t0mm. If it helps him to think about it like that, then that's what matters, what should be respected. Likewise, all of us have things which we believe help us, even if other people may not agree with them. Acceptance works in more than one way. 'This Is My truth Tell Me Yours', as the Manic Street Preachers album put it years back.

There's been a great sense of goodwill, respect and togetherness in this thread so far. That makes it very rare in Afterhours. Let's keep it that way, and articulate our dissensions in a more harmonious manner.


'Tread softly for you tread on my dreams'
- Aedh Wishes for the Cloths of Heaven (1899) W.B. Yeats

@SteadyEddy: Publicly I apologize for my outburst.... I sent you a pm offering my apologies....

Sorry for ruining the thread....

t0mm13b

t0mm13b wrote: »

@SteadyEddy: Publicly I apologize for my outburst.... I sent you a pm offering my apologies....

Sorry for ruining the thread....

You didn't ruin your thread, don't worry. It's still going to go on. Don't worry

strokemyclover

Confab wrote: »

Group therapy is outdated and ineffective from what I've seen. One-to-one CBT is a good tool.

The one thing that fails utterly is talking about the past. I trained in hypnotherapy and psychoanalysis, and the key to it all was arsing around spitting Freud at the erstwhile client and suggesting madeup scenarios in the hope of getting somewhere. My trainee therapist even tried to suggest that I was abused as a kid, probably to get a rise out of me. Can't say I remember being abused. I'dve saved myself a lot of money if I listened that nagging voice telling me the whole concept was incredibly flawed bullshit.

I'm not going to argue with you because everyone finds their own way of dealing with their problems. All I'm saying is that for my personal situation, group would have done me the world of good but I couldn't engage because of long term members taking liberties which shouldn't have been afforded to them in the first place.

I am continuing with one to one and have tried CBT but group seemed like the best way out. I just couldn't remain in such a negative environment due to these long term members "owning" the group and them owners being similar personalities to those which caused my problems in the first place!

Dionysus

Wibbs wrote: »

I also really don't buy the widespread dosing of people with mild depression with very fcuking heavy duty chemicals, in particular the SSRI's and MAOI's. Its my firm(if unpopular belief) that these are being handed out with the same wild abandon as antibiotics were up to quite recently.

As with other people on this thread who have said as much, I agree 100% with you. I wouldn't say that's an unpopular belief; quite the opposite in fact. It is fairly bizarre that the IMO has not come out with a position on this given the many objections to GPs offering Prozac and the like out with seemingly wild abandon/

Wibbs wrote: »

It's my humble that we'll reap a similar bitter harvest from the SSRIs.

Agree very much once again.

Wibbs wrote: »

Personally, cards on the table? I've known quite a few people who suffered from this illness. Two bipolar types and I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.:( Others with severe clinical depression, 2 I buried after they died by their own hand. On the other hand I've also met quite a number who self described and were clinicallly described as depressives and it was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible. It is my firm opinion there are way more of the latter than the former and the over medicalisation of it does not help.

As an opinion, this is one thing. As a statement of verifiable, scientifically-based fact, this is wrong on so many levels.

Joey the lips

I believe there is many people out there suffering from depression and have yet to realise it. Either because they are extremly busy in work or home or are simply in denial

C_Dawg

I'm not one for arguing this and that, I just know that my own depression (not self diagnosed) has had a huge impact on my life for the last 8 plus years.

It is great though to see this serious topic being discussed in After Hours.

Not great points to add to the thread at all but I felt the need to make my mark.

I think this thread has become something huge - nearly 500 people have voted. Keep going. Just voting is an acknowledgement of a problem that is there.

Dionysus

WesternNight wrote: »

I'd have to agree with Wibbs about that. All the time you hear people say "I'm SO depressed today" and proceed to whinge and moan and sulk. That's not depression. The term is bandied about every day, almost always inaccurately. When someone is genuinely diagnosed with actual clinical depression and they tell someone about it, they hear it with the same ears as they hear the aforementioned "depressed" people. But it's not the same. At all. And people really need to realise that.

edit - that's really badly phrased but you get what I mean :P

First, it's perfectly true and accurate for somebody to say they're "depressed" without being clinically depressed. Long before clinical depression was defined, people were claiming to be depressed. The meaning of 'depression' in English as being 'depressed mentally' is dated to as far back as c. 1600, according to Online Etymology Dictionary. A precursor of clinical depression was, however, commonly known by the name 'melancholy'. Second, I can't imagine many people on this thread are equating "shíte day" with clinical depression.

pheasant tail

Joey the lips wrote: »

I believe there is many people out there suffering from depression and have yet to realise it. Either because they are extremly busy in work or home or are simply in denial

Thats very very true,,i know i would never ever have been to see a pschyarist only my parents picked up on many signs and forced me into it,,i was like 'no im grand'...attitude! I dont think you realise how bad you are until you actually go into the process,was for me anyway,i hear it gets worse before it gets better

Geansai Rua

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

For what its worth I decided to tell my mother today.

Apparently I may have:

Iron deficiency, take vitamin tablets!
Have been stuck in my room too much
Should read the secret
Should go back to mass
Too much time on the internet
Should try holistic medicine
Should burn lavender
Hormonal imbalance, also explains thinning hair

After I shot down all those things she finally suggested I should go to the doctor, who would do a blood test which would explain everything!

The best bit was when she said "What do you have to feel down about?" Which has made me feel pretty guilty. The worse thing is that she really means all those things and is trying to help.

The fact that I expected that reaction means it doesnt really bother me.

Dunno why Im posting about it here really, thought someone might be interested.

I just wanted to say well done! Your a lot braver than I am.. U should be proud. Im around the same age as you so if ya need a chat anytime just do the PM thing!! I get what you mean about the feeling guilty because you have more than others.. Thats why I couldnt say anything to anyone.
Sounds like the exact reaction I would get from my family!
:rolleyes:

WesternNight

Dionysus wrote: »

First, it's perfectly true and accurate for somebody to say they're "depressed" without being clinically depressed. Long before clinical depression was defined, people were claiming to be depressed. The meaning of 'depression' as being 'depressed mentally' is dated to c. 1600, according to Online Etymology Dictionary. Second, I can't imagine many people on this thread are equating "shíte day" with clinical depression. A precursor of clinical depression was, however, commonly known by the name 'melancholy'.

What I mean is, if people throw around the word when they're just having a bad day they might not quite appreciate the seriousness of it if, for instance, someone they know tells them they've been diagnosed with depression. It's not taken as seriously as, perhaps, it should be. They might think that "snap out of it!" is good advice, or some herbal remedy or a good night's sleep will sort the problem.

The word "depression" means different things to different people and in different contexts, but as an actual clinical condition it fits a particular criteria and that's what we're talking about here.

Wibbs

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Wibbs I gotta say Im pretty shocked.

Why? Because I don't fall behind one side that says "oh it's all an illness you know". I don't fall behind the "cop yourself on" side either. Depression is a sacred cow on both sides I've found.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Did he not say they were clinically diagnosed?

Like WesternNight said, that's no indication. The medical profession is as much a business and a fashion as it is a science. Make no mistake about that. How many GP's you know have anything approaching pharmacist knowledge? Hell I've seen two cases where a qualified psychiatrist changed a script from a strong SSRI to a strong MAOI overnight with patients in their care(google mixing those two). One of these fcukwits is a well known and respected consultant, but both were/are utter morons to make such a simple and obvious mistake. It gets better when you add in that one of these patients had a bad heart.

scientific1982 wrote: »

On your first point, how do you know that animals dont suffer from a form of depression.

OK yea but that's whataboutry until you can show me evidence for it.

There is a biological basis for depression i.e changes in brain chemistry, so it would be very unusual for this phenomena to be unique to humans.

Maybe not. We have unique brains for a start, so it could be unique to us. Many things are. Show me another animal with an opposable thumb(If some cnut says a crab, you're going on my list:D).

Also, this argument about whats "natural" and "unnatural" is pretty silly. We're part of the natural world, how could a condition that affects us or something we do be outside of that.

Yes and no. We have created a supernatural world by virtue of our brains and culture and technology. It may have sprung from the natural but that doesnt make it so. You're typing this on the remants of dead sea creatures, sand and rock hewn from the "natural" ground, is your PC "natural"?

On your second point, what data are you referring to and what exactly is our "natural state". Yes humans are risk taking animals, but we're also pattern seeking animals with highly analytical minds.

So? What's your point? How does that relate to the clearly recent jump in people being flagged as depressed?

In relation to our hunter gatherer ancestors, what studies show that they had lower levels of depression and how was this quantified.

Not ancestors, current populations who live that lifestyle have far less depression. http://www.examiner.com/alternative-medicine-in-buffalo/the-hunter-gatherer-approach-to-preventing-and-treating-depression http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/article.html?article_id=100000044 Why? better diets, more exercise, more social contact, more spiritual, less insular.

pheasant tail

Thats true,the word depression is thrown about way too much totally out of meaning.
I live in the country and the words 'clinical depression' are unheard off. Ive told 2 people that im depressed and they immediately ask 'about what??' which is so frustrating but i dont blame them as if you havent experienced depression i think its impossibe to ever understand!!:(

steddyeddy

t0mm13b wrote: »

@SteadyEddy: Publicly I apologize for my outburst.... I sent you a pm offering my apologies....

Sorry for ruining the thread....

you didnt ruin the thread man dont worry your a good guy

Dionysus

Joey the lips wrote: »

I believe there is many people out there suffering from depression and have yet to realise it. Either because they are extremly busy in work or home or are simply in denial

There's absolutely no doubt about that. And there are many rational reasons why people would wish to avoid being 'labelled'.

The notion that depression is a 'trendy' illness is risible.

Sardonicat

Wibbs wrote: »

Like WesternNight said, that's no indication. The medical profession is as much a business and a fashion as it is a science. Make no mistake about that. How many GP's you know have anything approaching pharmacist knowledge? Hell I've seen two cases where a qualified psychiatrist changed a script from a strong SSRI to a strong MAOI overnight with patients in their care(google mixing those two). One of these fcukwits is a well known and respected consultant, but both were/are utter morons to make such a simple and obvious mistake. It gets better when you add in that one of these patients had a bad heart.


/QUOTE]

Jebus, H Christ! Can they not use a MIMS/BNF? Or do they think they are omniscient and no longer need to do a simple check? Fcuking infuriating.

I think this is more symptomatic of the low regard and general lack of respect "psych" patients evoke, even by some of the professionals treating them. I could share a few stories, but here is not the place.

Wibbs

Dionysus wrote: »

As an opinion, this is one thing. As a statement of verifiable, scientifically-based fact, this is wrong on so many levels.

Oh I agree, like I said it was an opinion, but one I firmly believe. IE that many so called depressed types are self centered and self indulgent people who are looking for an excuse or reason not to enter into life after adolescence, such as it may be for them. I think it starts off as an innocent enough teenage malaise, but builds on itself, because its not nipped in the bud early enough and spirals out of control. Add in a lazy GP who juices them up on goofballs meant for more deserving severe cases and you've got a chemically bipolar type convinced all their ills are down to their illness and you've got a longterm problem. This cutting lark is a perfect example. I'm old enough to remember a time when this was as rare as rocking horse shíte. Bear in mind I have practicing shrinks in the extended family and we've chatted about this very thing. 20/30 years ago? Seriously rare. Now? Every second emo with a penchant for black turtlenecks is having fun with the razor blades. Can you claim that's genetic/"natural"? Nope its a social meme and a fashion. It is or can be a release for some deeper malaise, but don't tell me it's not a "fashion" of sorts.

Wolfe Tone

Why? Because I don't fall behind one side that says "oh it's all an illness you know". I don't fall behind the "cop yourself on" side either. Depression is a sacred cow on both sides I've found.

Fair enough Wibbs, it just didnt seem the ideal time to bash people who had gone to get help and ha been diagnosed.

pampootie

Talking to someone isn't always as simple as it sounds though, is it? I'm speaking from my own personal experience here. I work as a pharmacist and see people every day suffering from depression, I've spoken to dozens about it and tried to help in any way I can, and I really hope I'm empathetic and help them in some small way.
But, several years ago, when I was in my teens, my best friend was diagnosed with bipolar depression. I was the only one she told, for a period of at least 4 years. I tried really hard to help her. I asked her to tell her family, she wouldn't. I asked her to go for counselling, offered to go with her-she wouldn't. I used to go stay at her house, she'd wake me up in the middle of the night and make me watch her binge eat, or pull her hair out with her hands, asking "am I scaring you?" I didn't know what to do.
The breaking point came after my mother died when I was 16, and I went through a bout of reactive depression afterward. I couldn't handle her during this period. A lot of it stemmed from the fact that the first words she said to me at my mothers funeral were "Oh, thank God this has happened you and not me, I'd never cope". I was sick to death of her selfishness. I know that's maybe not fair, but it's how I felt.
A few months later, when I had started coping with my mothers death a bit better, we got closer again and I tried once more to make her get help, make her understand that leaning on me wasn't an option because I couldn't support her. No joy. Then I moved away to college, she started smoking weed all the time and it got harder and harder to ever talk to her properly. We lost touch totally eventually. I try ringing and texting her the odd time since, no response ever. I see her sister every now and then, she always just says she's fine.
It tears me up with guilt whenever I think of it. We were friends for so so long, and I always feel I failed her. I think of her every single day at work when I talk to someone with a similar problem and I worry for her. I just wish I could have done something. I don't know what I hoped to achieve by writing all this either, just this thread made me think of her as soon as I opened it. I suppose what I mean is that by all means, you need to speak to friends or family members, but sometimes, some depressions need a greater help, from counselling or medications or whatever, and it's important to recognise when that is.

Mr Benevolent

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree, like I said it was an opinion, but one I firmly believe. IE that many so called depressed types are self centered and self indulgent people who are looking for an excuse or reason not to enter into life after adolescence, such as it may be for them. I think it starts off as an innocent enough teenage malaise, but builds on itself, because its not nipped in the bud early enough and spirals out of control. Add in a lazy GP who juices them up on goofballs meant for more deserving severe cases and you've got a chemically bipolar type convinced all their ills are down to their illness and you've got a longterm problem. This cutting lark is a perfect example. I'm old enough to remember a time when this was as rare as rocking horse shíte. Bear in mind I have practicing shrinks in the extended family and we've chatted about this very thing. 20/30 years ago? Seriously rare. Now? Every second emo with a penchant for black turtlenecks is having fun with the razor blades. Can you claim that's genetic/"natural"? Nope its a social meme and a fashion. It is or can be a release for some deeper malaise, but don't tell me it's not a "fashion" of sorts.

Wow. Generalise much? I agree about the cutting being trendy (much like fainting fits in the 1800s and catalepsy in the early 1900s), but I think you're tar way too many people with the same brush. That said, I believe don't believe in genetic depression. People are responsible for their own thoughts, and while it seems difficult to change those thoughts at the start, it can and has been done countless times. I'm sure there are a smaller group of people who use depression as an excuse for everything, but mark my words, depression is real, psychologists and psychiatrists are far from infallible and people can spend their whole lives not telling anyone about their genuine depression because people spout shit like

...many so called depressed types are self centered and self indulgent people who are looking for an excuse or reason not to enter into life after adolescence, such as it may be for them

All you're doing is perpetuating a sordid stereotype and marking yourself out as the very person who needs to be educated that depression isn't just looking for attention. Yes, people do fake depression. Some will fake their own death if it means sympathy. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Ever visited a public mental hospital? None of the patients are faking in those hellholes, believe me.

Cop on to yourself.

t0mm13b

Dionysus wrote: »

There's absolutely no doubt about that. And there are many rational reasons why people would wish to avoid being 'labelled'.

The notion that depression is a 'trendy' illness is risible.

Have to say, am inclined to agree that having a 'label' attached, can put people off, due to their own insecurities or fears....and dissociate themselves from the actual meaning of the label....

That is where the stigma creeps in, and quite rightly so, from their upbringing where they were taught right and wrong and invariably get distorted through their own interpretation hence avoid anyone who has a 'label' such as sexual/religion/race etc.... even... this line...."I am depressed and need some one to talk to", those that have the stigma well ingrained into themselves, may well avoid them like a plague as if it was a contagion disease....

The question remains.... do people abuse the word depression in varying contexts? Now this is a hairy question.... not to put down those who suffer genuinely.... but an open-ended question....