Depression

WindSock

Sane planning sensible tomorrow.
I think wibbs is right. Far better in some cases to just try to talk about what's on your mind instead of looking for the chemical quick fix for your problems.

steddyeddy

Excuse my ignorance but if something bad in your life happens eg death of a wife or whatever a a depression results, is that clinical depression or does clinical depression usually have no known cause?

Queen-Mise

I suffer from Depression and it is an absolute b*tch. Such a frustrating illness. At an obvious level (physically) there is nothing wrong, I have use of my faculties, limbs and yet somedays could sleep 16-20 hrs. It is hard to describe the blackness, bleakness, hopelessness etc to people.

Every aspect of my life is limited, if I go home to visit family for a day - I sleep the following day. I have to choose what housework to do - if I do washing up/floors, then I don't have energy to do clothes. The same energy limitations with my kids, sometimes I cannot do anything with them. The lights are on but no-one is home.

I have been in psyche wards twice this year - the staff are so good and the care they give is incredible. And the variation of the understanding of psychiatrists/nurses is incredible. Some are brilliant and others couldn't tell the difference between a happy baby and a baby having a tantrum.

Keep going for help is what I will say. Everyone is trained so differently in the health service: one person may be ideal and the next awful. They are many different training styles - for many different type people.


It is a dangerous insidious illness. I would nearly give a limb or two to get rid of it now (I am half serious on that ).

Mountainsandh

Can I just put in my penny worth here, I think it might help illustrate Wibbs points in a... ehmm... more palatable and less offensive way ?

I have both examples for you : the chemical bipolar, and the lingering self-centered adolescent depressed type.

The chemical bipolar was my father, who died from it at 47.
The lingering self-pitying and self-centered adolescent depressive was (and still is) me.

I have to say first, that I'm keeping myself well in check, I have dealt with some of it, and lead a happy life, lots more to do though, to keep me safe, but not depressed at this stage of my life.

I became depressed in my late teens, and again around my 20th birthday. It was genuine, I was in the dark place, no mistaking it, I remember it well too. But I was lucky I went to a great psychiatrist who simply helped me grow up. I think some people like me need to be helped grow up, and sometimes the psychiatrist is needed, as well as some (light) medication. I had to learn to stop feeling sorry for myself, had to learn to stop blaming every failure or refusal to cope in my life on my father, my family situation, other people, or external things/events. I had to take charge, take responsability, to cop on basically. Maybe to become more selfish too, but in a different way. Not in the "what are they (is he) doing to me" way if you get what I mean. I had to make changes, if that's what it took.

Of course there were explanations : it was very very tough growing up with a chemical bipolar father, very tough, on the whole family. Excrutiating in fact, and scarring. But I had to come to terms with the fact that these could explain where I was, but not excuse it. He was still alive by the way at that stage.

I still do it, I feel sorry for myself, or revert to the adolescent psyche : everybody else is doing that to me, the situation is doing that to me.

Hey but that's OK, if I need top ups throughout my life. In fact I'm slowly but surely gathering up the strength to try and face some more hometruths, do some more growing, so I can get rid of the anxiety, low self esteem that I still have. Sometimes I feel like I'm walking on the edge of a cliff : the potential depression is still there. In fact I've nearly been swallowed up a good few times, but I'm lucky I have a brilliant husband who held my hand and helped me stay safe. The challenge is to be able to keep myself safe, accept the help, but not rely on others to do it all for me.

So there you have it, I am potentially the self centered but genuinely depressed at times one, but the good news is, that can be dealt with, that can be kept at bay. If you're like me the lingering adolescent (ever thought : "I'm such a baby, I should really get over it and cop on" ?) depressive, well then look, there's hope, I'm a happy bunny right now (even with the anxiety/sometimes overwhelming pessimism/rock bottom self-esteem...), have a great life, survived a rough time with my Dad.

I'm simply aware that at stages in my life, I need to face it, and deal with it. Not all the time, not all at once.
As far as I'm concerned, it's ok not to deal with everything first time around. I've a lot of unfinished business, but if things get too bad, I know I can do something about it, get help, and I will.

I do think the genetic predisposition is a reality, makes it a bit more... dangerous throughout my life, has to be factured in as a risk. It seems impossible to draw a line between what is genetic, chemical, and what's situational so to speak.

I believe my father could have been saved by the way, he was very very far gone obviously, but a change in medical team, and another change in medical approach might have done the trick. Try someone else, or something else. An umptieth opinion/approach sometimes, but it could just be the right one.

And maybe a drastic change in situation too. I removed myself from a situation I was unwell in, to save myself. I moved to Ireland (from France) and it really helped. It's not fleeing from your problems I'm advocating, it's making a change in another direction. Change is possible, and it can help.

Sorry for the very long post, could help some I hope. Damn, another late night, I love/hate these holiday times. :cool: Off to bed for me.

anniehoo

steddyeddy wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but if something bad in your life happens eg death of a wife or whatever a a depression results, is that clinical depression or does clinical depression usually have no known cause?

Its classed as Circumstantial/situational Depression

Rockery Woman

I had a friend who suffered from bi-polar disorder.

At the time we were friends, he told me about his depression, his feelings, about fighting with his family. I used to work with him and he told me once that all week he dreads the weekend, then all weekend he dreads the week ahead.

This was 6 years ago. I knew nothing about depression to be honest. I really thought a "cheer up, come on lets have a laugh" type of banter with him would help him. If I knew then what I know now I would have been a better friend. No more stupid advice, no more telling him what he should do or who he could talk to.

So what happened next - thats the thing. We had a row, I told his wife I was worried about him, as I "betrayed his trust" he blanked me out of his life. If we meet in the street I am blank-ignored.

So now, looking back I feel I should have distanced myself a bit more. Looking back my friendship was probably more harm to him than good. Now when someone mentions they suffer from depression or bi-polar disorder I let them finish what they want to say. I dont advise, make a skit of it, or pretend to know how they feel.

It took me a long time to forgive myself after our fall-out. I felt helpless , stupid, selfish - yet looking back there was little or nothing I could have done to help him.

I only hope that he is getting the correct treatment and that there is a chance he may beat this. He once said its something he needs to do himself for himself and I really hope he did.

Queen-Mise

WindSock wrote: »

Sane planning sensible tomorrow.
I think wibbs is right. Far better in some cases to just try to talk about what's on your mind instead of looking for the chemical quick fix for your problems.

OK Windsock - I am going to rip this sentence apart, but it is not personal.

1 - Medication is not a quick fix, an anti-depressant takes at least 3 weeks to 2 years for the full effects to be achieved. Other meds like Xanax for example that work instantly, are designed for short period of times: Xanax is addictive after a few weeks use (six week, I think) - but Xanax is more appropriate for anxiety type things.

2- Secondly and this is far more important. Going for counselling/talking to someone when depressed can be dangerous if the depression is not under control. Talking can exacerbate a situation and create even more problems.


Always start with your GP and then go from there. We are not doctors - 'What 'I' decide what to do - may very well not be the best thing for me'.

Novella

Charlie. wrote: »

The point I was trying to make Novella was this.
I have suffered from depression. I feel lucky to have received counseling. It has since returned twice. Now that I feel fine I find it very hard to remember and understand how I felt, and find it very difficult to actually believe that I ever felt so low. Therefore I don't understand how anyone can make a judgment on someone elses state of mind, especially anyone who has never suffered from a MI. I was giving the example from my own personal experience how a lack of understanding resulted in me (someone who suffers from anxiety and depression & therefore you would imagine would know better) viewing someone to be an arsehole when infact he is most likely suffers from anxiety, perhaps depression.

To answer your question I don't believe everyone who says they are depressed, is depressed no. I say that in the instance of people who throw the word depressed into everyday conversation "I lost my phone last night, man I'm so depressed" or say in the instance of someone who was recently bereaved...in the world we live in today I believe many people expect quick term healing for emotional states that can sometimes naturally take weeks, months or years so I may doubt someone who described themselves as depressed in that instance also, of course there are many more.

However in a thread that started out positively, that seemed to have the aim of increasing peoples awareness of depression and mental illness, to allow sufferers to share their experiences and maybe most importantly to decrease the stigma attached to depression and other mental illnesses; I don't think it's appropriate TBH to use words such as emo...whinny..self indugent to describe people who see themselves as being depressed, to use phrases such as 'top themselves' to describe suicide or to make judgments on other peoples states of mind.

So, what? If you've suffered from depression, you have to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're being a twat because they're mentally ill? You say you don't understand how anyone can make a judgement on anyone else's state of mind and then immediately afterwards go on to make one about your father.

Okay, so you actually do agree. You don't think everyone claiming to be depressed truly is. What about those who are diagnosed after a 5 minute GP consult - "Oh, not sleeping too well, unmotivated = depressed"? Do you not think that we should have better ways of diagnosing an illness? If you went to the GP with a lump and he immediately said, "Oh, that's cancer", would that be acceptable? The high volume of GP diagnosis based on a quick tick the boxes exam simply cannot be 100% accurate. Some people have to be just a little bit sad.

You want the thread to be positive? It's about depression! Increasing peoples knowledge of mental illness is something I am big on as well, but no way am I gonna sit here and share experiences and leave out all the bad shit that goes hand in hand with being mentally unwell in this country. Handing out anti-depressants to every single person who isn't feeling top notch is wrong. Firstly, it's bloody medication, it's not candy. It can fuck you up. I went from being relatively low to out and out suicidal after I was prescribed an MAOI immediately following an SSRI. I ended up in the Mater after an attempted overdose.

A GP shouldn't just be dishing out this kind of medication, that's what I'm saying. They can't know if that person genuinely needs medical intervention at that point. It is downright dangerous. If GP's encouraged their patients to see a counsellor, referred them to their local psych unit, did anything but mess around with their brain chemistry at such at early stage, I think it'd be better.

If you didn't think the use of the word emo or whatever was appropriate, did you report the offending post? No one said that all people who are depressed are 'emo' but denying the fact that self mutilation is popular within the emo scene would just be silly. Everyone knows it is. Perhaps it's the kind of thing that makes really and truly being depressed so unbelievably difficult. 'Cause you have to put up with uneducated people throwing that kind of thing in your face.

I don't think Wibbs was saying that the emo culture defines depression. I think what he meant was more that it makes a mockery of it, and it does I guess. How would not speaking about it help exactly? I don't get the attitude of, "We'll talk about the good bits, and pretend the bad doesn't exist"? Of course there are people who aren't depressed claiming that there are. Just like there are people committing insurance fraud (no idea why that came to mind) etc. No one is saying that everyone in this thread is lying, that they are 'emo' or making light of suicide by referring to it as 'topping oneself'. It is just important to recognise that there are people who will, I dunno, 'take advantage' of depression. There are people who won't understand, and it's just as important to talk about that and to put it out there as it is to mention aware and Samaritans and what have you.

I'm not having a go at you, btw, and I'm sorry for babbling here. Just wanted to clear up where I'm coming from and make sure you knew (and others) that I'm not trying to ruin the thread, simply offering another perspective.

Stained Class

snyper wrote: »

Almost 80% of polled people have had depression.

Either this forum is a haven for people with clinical depression or Irish doctors are over disgnosing this illness - i could be wrong, im just very suprised by the results and have always found that doctors are very quick to prescribe meds on this topic

Well, 80% of people in this country are not depressed, it's just that a lot of people who are young are seeming to suffer this.

As I said before on this thread,I'm not MI but one of my parents is totally crackers!

My mam ( prior to her latest attack this year) had been totally sane since '92.

Now, I used to visit her in the old days & most of the patients then were genuine fruitcakes (such as my mam) or alcos.

The huge difference now, I've noticed, is the amount of young people in these places.

Why is this??

Speaking to staff there they say 'It's drugs'

Food for thought for the next person on here who will be in some sort of pathetic clamour to legalise weed or whatever....

anniehoo

Novella wrote: »

If GP's encouraged their patients to see a counsellor, referred them to their local psych unit, did anything but mess around with their brain chemistry at such at early stage, I think it'd be better.

+1

scientific1982

Wibbs wrote: »

I could get more scientific about this, but bollocks sums it up so much better. Again you made a claim, back it up or go away. I could equally claim, gazelles wear fez's when we're not looking. It would be equally daft.

Clinical studies are obviously superior to simply making a judgement based on observing behaviour.

Yep http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/303/1/47.short?home http://www.news-medical.net/health/Efficacy-of-SSRIs-for-Depression.aspx Google the rest. There's only so much work I'll do for nada. You see? I provided sources. Do similar or lets just avoid further embarrassment.

Heres one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1466912/
BTW placebos are used in every clinical trial, including every SSRI thats currently on the market.

Get back to me when you know even the basic diffs between bipolar and schizophrenia

I never once stated that bipolar disorder and schizophrenia were the same. Do not know where you got that little gem from.

AntiMatter

Stained Class wrote: »

Now, I used to visit her in the old days & most of the patients then were genuine fruitcakes (such as my mam) or alcos.

The huge difference now, I've noticed, is the amount of young people in these places.

Why is this??

Speaking to staff there they say 'It's drugs'

Food for thought for the next person on here who will be in some sort of pathetic clamour to legalise weed or whatever....

Are the drugs a cause of the illness, or an attempt to escape it by self-medicating with alcohol, weed or whatever?

And, having spent a little time in some institutions myself, I agree with those who are saying that the plying, by doctors, of even more drugs is merely papering over the cracks, whilst not getting to the root causes.

Wibbs

Stained Class wrote: »

Well, 80% of people in this country are not depressed, it's just that a lot of people who are young are seeming to suffer this.

Yea there really does seem to be a major change in this. When I think back to my own late teenage years *ahem* odd years ago, the differences seem pretty stark. I knew of around 5 people of my age in my various social groups who were obviously mentally ill. Three were schizophrenics, the rest manic depressives. It was certainly considered unusual anyway. I knew a few more people where one parent(usually the mother) had to go away for a "little rest" from time to time(though I think in most cases the poor women actually needed a proper rest and they weren't particularly mentally ill).

This is gonna sound like a weird comparison, but the change in the amount of MI was for me like the change in the amount of allergic type people. When I was a kid I knew one kid with an inhaler and another with obviously bad hay fever(a few others who would get sniffly but not much more). Now it seems every second kid is chuggin on an inhaler or allergic to this that or the other. Might it be partially environmental? The increase I mean.

Speaking to staff there they say 'It's drugs'

Food for thought for the next person on here who will be in some sort of pathetic clamour to legalise weed or whatever....

I dunno SC, maybe, but a couple of things against that. 1) like has been mentioned maybe the drugs are used to in a self medication way? 2) people have been smoking weed for a long time in this country. It's not a newly invented thing of the current generation. One thing that is different I think is the regularlty and sheer amount of alcohol younger types drink today.

cleremy jarkson

Everything has a cause; there must be SOME reasons why the existence of mental illness have increased over the last 30 + years, even taking into account increased levels of seeking help. This doesn't mean that those who suffer from clinical depression don't suffer any less (and therefore should seek appropriate help), it just means that there are factors at work in causing the illness nowadays which weren't at work 30 + years ago. We should be trying to work out what these are so we can tackle them and reduce the occurrence of crippling mental illness.

Take for instance, something as seemingly harmless as having access to the internet perhaps allows depression to fester slightly more easily, as it is now much, much easier to stay at home ruminating when you have something as instantly gratifying as the internet to help you cope with the numbness and loss of interest that depression brings? Does anybody remember how satisfying it used to be when a song you liked came on the radio 12 or 15 years ago? Nowadays you can spend hours listening to any songs you like on youtube and it just doesn't have the same effect. I personally think that the western world is becoming numb to gratification/ pleasure resulting from a lifetime of constant over-stimulation eg. cooked and refined food, hot showers, alcohol, drugs, caffeine, sugar, non-water-drinks, warm houses, comfortable beds, clothes and haircuts to make ourselves as physically attractive as possible...tv, internet and music available any time to cure boredom. I'm sure many will have heard of the term "anhedonia", often experience by drug addicts upon cessation because they have depleted and rendered ineffective their brains pleasure systems. It is my own personal belief that a large proportion of the increase in mild depression which has occurred in recent years is as a result of mild anhedonia..the result of very regular and continuous over-stimulation of the brain. Now, I don't believe that this is the only cause, or even the main cause, but I do believe it in a contributory factor.

Did anybody see that documentary a few years back where 3 or 4 guys from an island in the south pacific travelled to England to meet the working, middle and upper classes? Everybody on the island seemed very content and the children all seemed extremely happy, overjoyed really, when one of the men said that he would take home some bread for them! Bear in mind these kids weren't going hungry but they would have received such little stimulation, to put it crudely, over the course of their lives that eating some bread would be 100 times more satisfying to them than it would be for us. Also, when one of the men tasted beer for the first time, he remarked on how incredibly sweet it was! The 3 / 4 men also came across as much more contented, happy, carefree and oblivious to depression than any of the English people featured.

Again, this isn't meant to downplay the crippling experiences of depression suffered by many people in this country, and I think this has been a very successful and helpful thread, but I think it's also time for us all to try and wrangle out, objectively, the causes and effects for such a large increase in mental illnesses in recent years, depression in particular.

What's to say that there's been an increase though? Nobody knows the full statistics for depression years ago - for all we know it might have been the same, but nobody talked about it. We are finally coming to grips with ourselves; shuffling off the coils of past generations like an unwillingness to talk about our problems.

cleremy jarkson

Deleted User wrote: »

What's to say that there's been an increase though? Nobody knows the full statistics for depression years ago - for all we know it might have been the same, but nobody talked about it. We are finally coming to grips with ourselves; shuffling off the coils of past generations like an unwillingness to talk about our problems.

You could by correct, but stating the obvious here but years ago the level of the depression was either:
A) more than now
less than now
C) the same as now

A) -- anecdotal evidence from my parents and suicide rates data from the past seem to suggest this isn't the case, unless of course people were extraordinarily capable of hiding it and extremely compelled against committing suicide, for religious reasons or otherwise. One thing that does strike me though is this; life was much simpler * in years gone past and it would have been much easier to deal with depression when your efforts are fixated on just working to keep yourself fed eg. somebody working the land. Modern careers and life in general are very complicated, and very achievement orientated also, which must surely be conductive to increased levels of depression in those susceptible to it.

I think this is the case.

c) Suicide rates are much higher nowadays and I think that the fact that people no longer fear the fires of hell for suicide doesn't fully explain the 300% increase. I don't think true rates of depression are equal now to what they were 50 or 60 years ago. Schizophrenia perhaps (this illness tends to affect approximately 1% of the population regardless of country, standard of living etc) but not depression ( perhaps the most severe/ psychotic types but not mild).

* edit: I don't mean this in material terms / comforts, but simpler as in more basic. Life was of course much harsher back then, but harsh in a way that people were always capable of dealing with.

Mountainsandh

+1 :
If you were too physically exhausted to think, plus possible chemical influence of hard work on brain/body ? Too much thinking nowadays.

Charlie.

Novella wrote: »

So, what? If you've suffered from depression, you have to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're being a twat because they're mentally ill? You say you don't understand how anyone can make a judgement on anyone else's state of mind and then immediately afterwards go on to make one about your father.

No you don't have to, I probably would though. I don't see why anyone would pretend to be depressed or choose to be unhappy unless they has some kind of MI. And just to clarify I don't think the majority of people with a MI behave like a 'twat'.
I didn't make a judgement on my father, that's why I used the word likely and with all due respect after living with someone who made my families life a misery for the last 22 years, I think I am in a better position to make a judgment on him than someone who is judging people they know nothing about who claim to have a MI.

Novella wrote: »

What about those who are diagnosed after a 5 minute GP consult - "Oh, not sleeping too well, unmotivated = depressed"? Do you not think that we should have better ways of diagnosing an illness? If you went to the GP with a lump and he immediately said, "Oh, that's cancer", would that be acceptable? The high volume of GP diagnosis based on a quick tick the boxes exam simply cannot be 100% accurate. Some people have to be just a little bit sad.

You want the thread to be positive? It's about depression! Increasing peoples knowledge of mental illness is something I am big on as well, but no way am I gonna sit here and share experiences and leave out all the bad shit that goes hand in hand with being mentally unwell in this country. Handing out anti-depressants to every single person who isn't feeling top notch is wrong. Firstly, it's bloody medication, it's not candy. It can fuck you up. I went from being relatively low to out and out suicidal after I was prescribed an MAOI immediately following an SSRI. I ended up in the Mater after an attempted overdose.

A GP shouldn't just be dishing out this kind of medication, that's what I'm saying. They can't know if that person genuinely needs medical intervention at that point. It is downright dangerous. If GP's encouraged their patients to see a counsellor, referred them to their local psych unit, did anything but mess around with their brain chemistry at such at early stage, I think it'd be better.

Look I never disputed the fact that the mental health services in this country are an absolute shambles. I have also had first hand experience of this from a doctor telling me that I had no reason to be depressed, sure wasn't I an educated, attractive young woman who had a boyfriend etc., and in the next breath had prescribed me xanax and when I questioned the need for them and said I felt CBT would be more benificial, he ripped the prescription up and told me to come back in a week when I had 'calmed down' to finally being given an appointment to see a CBT and when I couldn't find her office I spotted an office that above the door said something like HSE Mental Health Services so I thought surely it must be in here or they'll be able to point me in the right direction...nope not only had they never heard of the therapist or know her location, I also had to explain to the receptionist what i meant by CBT. Now this may seem minor but at that stage I was finding it hard to pick a pair of socks to wear in the mornings, something like that had me wanting to just go home and just crawl back into bed.
I said in my first post that I agreed with much of what Wibbs had said (mainly in regard to medication) but just because I don't agree with how depression is treated in this country is not the fault of those who suffer it, nor does it make their suffering any less!

I totally agree with the last point you made there that I have quoted. I don't think doctors should be allowed to prescribe that type of medication as it seems many have little understanding of depression and the effect these drugs can have. As another poster pointed out if you have heart disease, cancer, whatever, you are referred to a specialist in that field to prescribe the best course of treatment. It should be the same practice for mental health issues.

It's absolutely ridiculous that sometimes the only person people can talk to is their GP. Of course they're going to prescribe medication, I highly doubt most know anything about counselling.

fryup

God I really hate this time of year, when everyone is expected to be in a party/cheery mood.

LadyMayBelle

Deleted User wrote: »

It's absolutely ridiculous that sometimes the only person people can talk to is their GP. Of course they're going to prescribe medication, I highly doubt most know anything about counselling.

Anywhere I have worked, they referred/refer people who they felt needed/who had requested someone to talk to, to the social workers. I am lucky in that I have a doc who listens but so many, don't. Good thread OP, I am only sorry I found it now and have a good few pages to read thru to catch up.

What I found with a lot of GPs (and is the reason behind people not getting the morning after pill, which is another completely backward and idiotic system in this country, but that's another thread) is that a lot of people won't go to them to talk about these things because, in some cases, they'd know the family fairly well and would have known them since children.

Darlughda

A critical factor in any succesful treatment of depression (that I think seems to be overlooked in this thread), is the actuall counselling/ pschotherapy and/or talk therapy.

This seems to be shakey at best.

Although I have an excellent GP, the only counsellor/psycholanast she could refer me to charges €150 per session!

One of my outstanding issues is my long term illness which has meant that I am in the social welfare budget for the last 10 years.

Unfortunately, my experience with the HSE has not been good.
Very determined to stick to their criterion of what is wrong with someone, and then if you are using a substance, for example alcohol, to deal with acute loneliness, they will refuse to see you until you have been 6 weeks-3 months abstinent!

Even within those strict criteria, if you manage to stick to them, the assumption is if you are isolated and alone, for example, there is obviously something wrong with you, and you get some ineffectual behavioural cognitive therapy, that is sweet fcuk all use if this has been a long term situation developing over a period of 20 years due to circumstances and aspects of the personality that actually do not need therapy, but rather affirmation and building of self-esteem.

Unfortunately, in my experience these are the good ones.

As the counselling industry is not yet regulated properly, I have also come across the most unbelievable chancers. Some are well meaning, but in way more need of therapy than their clients. Yet happy to accept huge amounts from desperate clients for 'listening' for an hour.

Empowering an individual to realiase their own choices and decisions is one thing, but it should not be an excuse for these 'counsellors' and 'therapists' to take huge amounts of money from a desperate person each week, or fortnightly.

People who seeks counsellors NEED decent nuggets of wisdom, or practical solutions or skills in how to deal with problems, they do not need to be at the very costly end of yet more clichés that worn out friends have already imparted.

Sardonicat

Darlughda wrote: »

Even within those strict criteria, if you manage to stick to them, the assumption is if you are isolated and alone, for example, there is obviously something wrong with you, and you get some ineffectual behavioural cognitive therapy,
As the counselling industry is not yet regulated properly, I have also come across the most unbelievable chancers. Some are well meaning, but in way more need of therapy than their clients. Yet happy to accept huge amounts from desperate clients for 'listening' for an hour.

Ain't that the truth! Who'd have thought that The University of Craggy Island would churn out so many graduates from its Psychology Department?

t0mm13b

Deleted User wrote: »

It's absolutely ridiculous that sometimes the only person people can talk to is their GP. Of course they're going to prescribe medication, I highly doubt most know anything about counselling.

That's a good point to make.... but face this, GP's are more of on the front line in terms of accessibility, the psychiatry/psychology "departments" are inaccessible to the public in that YOU have to go to your GP FIRST before you get a referral... now this part, seems to appear to me, a lot of "red-tape" and only gawd knows what else.....maybe the system is not fair on the GP's themselves who dish it out the happy-pills....

Darlughda wrote: »

A critical factor in any succesful treatment of depression (that I think seems to be overlooked in this thread), is the actuall counselling/ pschotherapy and/or talk therapy.

This seems to be shakey at best.

Although I have an excellent GP, the only counsellor/psycholanast she could refer me to charges €150 per session!

One of my outstanding issues is my long term illness which has meant that I am in the social welfare budget for the last 10 years.

Unfortunately, my experience with the HSE has not been good.
Very determined to stick to their criterion of what is wrong with someone, and then if you are using a substance, for example alcohol, to deal with acute loneliness, they will refuse to see you until you have been 6 weeks-3 months abstinent!

Even within those strict criteria, if you manage to stick to them, the assumption is if you are isolated and alone, for example, there is obviously something wrong with you, and you get some ineffectual behavioural cognitive therapy, that is sweet fcuk all use if this has been a long term situation developing over a period of 20 years due to circumstances and aspects of the personality that actually do not need therapy, but rather affirmation and building of self-esteem.

Unfortunately, in my experience these are the good ones.

As the counselling industry is not yet regulated properly, I have also come across the most unbelievable chancers. Some are well meaning, but in way more need of therapy than their clients. Yet happy to accept huge amounts from desperate clients for 'listening' for an hour.

Empowering an individual to realiase their own choices and decisions is one thing, but it should not be an excuse for these 'counsellors' and 'therapists' to take huge amounts of money from a desperate person each week, or fortnightly.

People who seeks counsellors NEED decent nuggets of wisdom, or practical solutions or skills in how to deal with problems, they do not need to be at the very costly end of yet more clichés that worn out friends have already imparted.

Again, that is a murky grey area here, have been to a few chancers who took advantage of my vulnerability with their so-called "wisdom" and believed them, which ended up nearly costing my life....

There is ZERO regulation on this.. like ffs, I heard on IRC (of whom I communicate regularly on), that someone "bought" a certificate - a diploma in psychology.... (ok, that is in the USA.....) need I say more on that.... :eek:

Now imagine that someone being here setting up a "practice" and ripping people off when they have no knowledge or experience..... that's the danger.... and they could charge any amount they like..... it's iffy.... because they make themselves appear to be so "accessible" and yet could end up mind-fcuking you around.... doing more damage than good....

t0mm13b

Deleted User wrote: »

What I found with a lot of GPs (and is the reason behind people not getting the morning after pill, which is another completely backward and idiotic system in this country, but that's another thread) is that a lot of people won't go to them to talk about these things because, in some cases, they'd know the family fairly well and would have known them since children.

Another point to make about the statement in bold....

GP's are bound to the patient confidentiality.... so there is zero to fear from that... so what... they cannot operate without the Hyppocratic(sp?) Oath... which is drummed into their brains from day one of training - keep the gob shut and do not discuss it....

I know of one GP (not naming names), who yaps and breaks patient confidentiality by discussing their patient's illness or situation....

Naikon

t0mm13b wrote: »

Another point to make about the statement in bold....

GP's are bound to the patient confidentiality.... so there is zero to fear from that... so what... they cannot operate without the Hyppocratic(sp?) Oath... which is drummed into their brains from day one of training - keep the gob shut and do not discuss it....

I know of one GP (not naming names), who yaps and breaks patient confidentiality by discussing their patient's illness or situation....

Who gives a **** about knowing the doctors family or whatever, the implications for being labelled "A Depressive" is the black mark that a person should be worried about. If you think your medical records are sealed/confidential, think again, please...

Naikon

t0mm13b wrote: »

That's a good point to make.... but face this, GP's are more of on the front line in terms of accessibility, the psychiatry/psychology "departments" are inaccessible to the public in that YOU have to go to your GP FIRST before you get a referral... now this part, seems to appear to me, a lot of "red-tape" and only gawd knows what else.....maybe the system is not fair on the GP's themselves who dish it out the happy-pills....



Again, that is a murky grey area here, have been to a few chancers who took advantage of my vulnerability with their so-called "wisdom" and believed them, which ended up nearly costing my life....

There is ZERO regulation on this.. like ffs, I heard on IRC (of whom I communicate regularly on), that someone "bought" a certificate - a diploma in psychology.... (ok, that is in the USA.....) need I say more on that.... :eek:

Now imagine that someone being here setting up a "practice" and ripping people off when they have no knowledge or experience..... that's the danger.... and they could charge any amount they like..... it's iffy.... because they make themselves appear to be so "accessible" and yet could end up mind-fcuking you around.... doing more damage than good....

Maybe an individual should come to the reasoning that alot of counselling out there is not fully regulated, therefore, the area is mostly a scam. Paying someone upwards of 100 euro to tell me to "reflect" on a situation is not likely to improve it. Real, severe depression is mainly biological. Mild Situational Depression is not in the same league as full blown Depression. Somehow, I doubt someone who thinks of suicide 10's of times a day, is likely to benefit from most counselling sessions out there. There comes a point where chemical intervention is required, and it's not for the Depression caused by breaking up with your girlfriend...

tigger123

Judging by the amount of posts on this thread, maybe the Mod's might look at keeping this open, "stickied" or whatever. Posting stuff anonymously (user-names do not identify you!) might be a good way for people to start to talk about it.

I've been through a fair amount of ups and downs in my time (deaths, relationship break-ups), but I've NEVER felt as good as I did since last summer when I started to exercise regularly and monitor my diet, I cant speak highly enough of it, and "diet" includes alcohol.

t0mm13b

Naikon wrote: »

Who gives a **** about knowing the doctors family or whatever, the implications for being labelled "A Depressive" is the black mark that a person should be worried about. If you think your medical records are sealed/confidential, think again, please...

Can you clarify what you meant exactly by the underlined statement? Basically for the benefit of the thread - what makes you say that?

t0mm13b

tigger123 wrote: »

Judging by the amount of posts on this thread, maybe the Mod's might look at keeping this open, "stickied" or whatever. Posting stuff anonymously (user-names do not identify you!) might be a good way for people to start to talk about it.

I've been through a fair amount of ups and downs in my time (deaths, relationship break-ups), but I've NEVER felt as good as I did since last summer when I started to exercise regularly and monitor my diet, I cant speak highly enough of it, and "diet" includes alcohol.

This is where linking up alcohol with depression plays a HUGE factor and of course alcohol is a well-known depressant.... so what do you think should be done to prevent it.... this is where a social contributing factor comes in, which, alone that, would be a nightmare to re-inforce the message, depending on the situation, celebration of life/death, and other factors would and could and may imply having a drink....

so would it mean that the process of alcohol production have changed dramatically in such a way that 50/60 years ago, people got drunk but not depressed? I am just trying to put feelers out on this one... of course, environmental/social factors come into play here... yes and this is where the subject gets even more complicated (As a bit of OT - Diabetes/Obesity and related illnesses did not happen 50/60 years ago because the production of chemicals were "minimized" for want of a word - take an old fashioned slab of toffee... no one got diabetes.... just a thought.....)

Just something that is noticeable today..... what you think?

Novella

t0mm13b wrote: »

This is where linking up alcohol with depression plays a HUGE factor and of course alcohol is a well-known depressant.... so what do you think should be done to prevent it.... this is where a social contributing factor comes in, which, alone that, would be a nightmare to re-inforce the message, depending on the situation, celebration of life/death, and other factors would and could and may imply having a drink....

so would it mean that the process of alcohol production have changed dramatically in such a way that 50/60 years ago, people got drunk but not depressed? I am just trying to put feelers out on this one... of course, environmental/social factors come into play here... yes and this is where the subject gets even more complicated (As a bit of OT - Diabetes/Obesity and related illnesses did not happen 50/60 years ago because the production of chemicals were "minimized" for want of a word - take an old fashioned slab of toffee... no one got diabetes.... just a thought.....)

Just something that is noticeable today..... what you think?

Alcohol is a depressant in that it temporarily reduces or slows the function of the central nervous system. Sleeping tablets are also depressants, as are certain drugs used to treat epilepsy. I don't think 'depressant' means something that will make you depressed. I think the reason that people who are diagnosed as depressed are told not to drink alcohol is moreso due to the fact that when drunk, things which are not really a good idea seem great... self harm, suicide etc. Plus, with a higher pain tolerance when drunk, it is easier to do more damage to oneself.

Sea Sharp

Naikon wrote: »

Maybe an individual should come to the reasoning that alot of counselling out there is not fully regulated, therefore, the area is mostly a scam. Paying someone upwards of 100 euro to tell me to "reflect" on a situation is not likely to improve it. Real, severe depression is mainly biological. Mild Situational Depression is not in the same league as full blown Depression. Somehow, I doubt someone who thinks of suicide 10's of times a day, is likely to benefit from most counselling sessions out there. There comes a point where chemical intervention is required, and it's not for the Depression caused by breaking up with your girlfriend...

Is it though?
Granted, severe depression can be described as a chemical imbalance, but that chemical imbalance is caused by a person's lifestyle and/or relationships.
Medication corrects the imbalance. Counselling helps people identify what may be causing the imbalance.

Dean820

I am really dreading tomorrow night. New Years Eve is usually the most depressing time of the year for me, personally. One of my friends bailed on me earlier tonight as well, we had previously made some plans which would of actually of been a laugh. I've another friend in Dublin but it could cost a fair bit traveling up. When that clock hits 12 and I look around its one of the worse feelings in the world.

t0mm13b

Dean820 wrote: »

I am really dreading tomorrow night. New Years Eve is usually the most depressing time of the year for me, personally. One of my friends bailed on me earlier tonight as well, we had previously made some plans which would of actually of been a laugh. I've another friend in Dublin but it could cost a fair bit traveling up. When that clock hits 12 and I look around its one of the worse feelings in the world.

Would you feel comfortable in explaining how you feel and why to help awareness....?

Naikon

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Is it though?
Granted, severe depression can be described as a chemical imbalance, but that chemical imbalance is caused by a person's lifestyle and/or relationships.
Medication corrects the imbalance. Counselling helps people identify what may be causing the imbalance.

Genetics play a bigger role in such cases though. Extreme depression is not caused simply because you broke up with your girlfriend. It's an evolutionary adaptation. Medication does not treat very severe depression, where invasive brain surgery and Electro convulsive bouts may be required.

Naikon

t0mm13b wrote: »

Can you clarify what you meant exactly by the underlined statement? Basically for the benefit of the thread - what makes you say that?

Ok, maybe not in the literal sense, but try applying to any big company or even negotiate a loan/insurance without a medical evaluation. Medical information and most information in general can be used against you these days imo. Try to get a one up on these ****ers, and disclose as little as possible. Alot of people want to step over one another to reach the top, metaphorically speaking that is...

t0mm13b

Naikon wrote: »

Ok maybe not in the literal sense, but try applying to any big company or even negotiate a loan/insurance without a medical evaluation. Medical information and most information can be used against you these days imo.

Yeah, probably, but would that not infringe on your right to privacy or leading to abuse of information for background checks or "blackmail" in a loosest sense of a word?

That seems to be heading into an area of where we're lead to believe Doctor/Patient confidentiality is rigorous when in reality is open to abuse..... :eek:

Naikon

t0mm13b wrote: »

Yeah, probably, but would that not infringe on your right to privacy or leading to abuse of information for background checks or "blackmail" in a loosest sense of a word?

That seems to be heading into an area of where we're lead to believe Doctor/Patient confidentiality is rigorous when in reality is open to abuse..... :eek:

As long as the information is factual and was obtained by proper means, blackmail does not come into the mix. Companies haven been known to disclose information to third parties PROVIDED the risk of a lawsuit is minimal/not costly. Companies hire "risk analyists" for a reason. I can't count on two hands the number of times I have seen bad computer usuage practice. myname123 IS NOT an acceptable password, EVER. Society in general needs to cop the **** on when it comes to IT/disclosure practices.

Sadly, Information is profit these days. Look at friendbook for example:D

Dean820

t0mm13b wrote: »

Would you feel comfortable in explaining how you feel and why to help awareness....?

I'm not depressed every day or anything. It just seems to happen around my birthday and New Years which are close together date-wise. I think I get down because I feel like a total failure. I feel I should have finished college years ago and have a nice job now for myself by now.

Also, my best friend has kind of settled down with a girl for himself...I feel like he just dropped me. Like before when I wanted to go for a pint, I could text him any time and all I needed to say was the place and the time. It was the same for him, I always tried to be a good friend. I'm happy for him, I am. Its just his relationship is messing up my life indirectly. I only had a couple of great friends to begin with. My social life is not what it was because I only go out the odd time with my buddy from Dublin when he comes down. I guess its my own fault, I always chose to have just one of two really good friends rather than a big group.

I just feel alone and abandoned I guess. And useless.

Haven't had a conversation about this with anyone so felt good to just get it out there.

Naikon

Dean820 wrote: »

I'm not depressed every day or anything. It just seems to happen around my birthday and New Years which are close together date-wise. I think I get down because I feel like a total failure. I feel I should have finished college years ago and have a nice job now for myself by now.

Also, my best friend has kind of settled down with a girl for himself...I feel like he just dropped me. Like before when I wanted to go for a pint, I could text him any time and all I needed to say was the place and the time. It was the same for him, I always tried to be a good friend. I'm happy for him, I am. Its just his relationship is messing up my life indirectly. I only had a couple of great friends to begin with. My social life is not what it was because I only go out the odd time with my buddy from Dublin when he comes down. I guess its my own fault, I always chose to have just one of two really good friends rather than a big group.

I just feel alone and abandoned I guess. And useless. Just because you are in a rut, does not automatically qualify you the term "depressed individual".

Haven't had a conversation about this with anyone so felt good to just get it out there.

These reactions are normal, Clinical Depression, isn't.

Sea Sharp

Naikon wrote: »

Genetics play a bigger role in such cases though. Extreme depression is not caused simply because you broke up with your girlfriend. It's an evolutionary adaptation. Medication does not treat very severe depression, where invasive brain surgery and Electro convulsive bouts may be required.

You can't really say that a person is suffering from depression because they have a particular gene. The thing with the scientific studies that show links between depression and DNA is that these links are probabilistic.
Say for example:
Person A (no genes related to depression) and person B (has gene related to depression) go through life events X,Y & Z, then person A is 50% likely to develop depression while person B is 80% likely to develop depression.
Genetics effect the probability of you developing depression but, regardless of your DNA, it was events X,Y & Z that caused the depression.

Naikon

Sea Sharp wrote: »

You can't really say that a person is suffering from depression because they have a particular gene. The thing with the scientific studies that show links between depression and DNA is that these links are probabilistic.
Say for example:
Person A (no genes related to depression) and person B (has gene related to depression) go through life events X,Y & Z, then person A is 50% likely to develop depression while person B is 80% likely to develop depression.
Genetics effect the probability of you developing depression but, regardless of your DNA, it was events X,Y & Z that caused the depression.

No. This is not the case for very severe depression where life events are simply a catalyst to accelerate it's development. The seed is still there, much in the same way genetics play a part in dementia for example. I don't think even the best life experiences would counteract problomatic/bad genetics. I hate to say it, but the last line is simply a big factor. Much in the same way alcoholism is spread to children from their host parents. The damage is done long before the womb is exited.

There is an entire subset of depressive people who suffer from it long term, even if life is rosey and dandy as they say. Depression is far more complex than the simple "Feeling sad" mentality thrown around. It's more a genetic adaptation in very severe cases. There is research out there to support my "drastic" assertions, so don't assume I am spoofing please:D

bobsoice23

Yea I have been depressed before and have to fight to keep it away every day.I was on the floor for too long,stuck there by some serious cellotape haha.It was at it's worst around my 18th when I was going out with someone aswell.I still can't shake off the embarrassment I feel about that time,it was the definition of hell on earth.The friends I had at the time were amazing aswell considering how ****ed I was.By the way...nothing really triggered my depression,it felt more like an inevaitability that just came round every so often to rock my world.That said I was always fairly shy and tend to over think things.I think what got me off the floor was just saying..feck this ****e don't take things too seriously and go back to basics,easier said than done but you have to start somewhere:D Hope this helps someone.

Sea Sharp

Naikon wrote: »

No. This is not the case for very severe depression where life events are simply a catalyst to accelerate it's development. The seed is still there, much in the same way genetics play a part in dementia for example. I don't think even the best life experiences would counteract problomatic/bad genetics. I hate to say it, but the last line is simply a big factor. Much in the same way alcoholism is spread to children from their host parents. The damage is done long before the womb is exited.

There is an entire subset of depressive people who suffer from it long term, even if life is rosey and dandy as they say. Depression is far more complex than the simple "Feeling sad" mentality thrown around. It's more a genetic adaptation in very severe cases. There is research out there to support my "drastic" assertions, so don't assume I am spoofing please:D

I won't, but I'll still maintain that it's probabilistic.
I believe that the correlation between lifestyle and depression (that was covered earlier in the thread by the 'there's no depressed animals in the wild' argument) takes away from the 'blame it on genetics' point of view.

I doubt, although I'm very much open to correction, that the research you're referring to concludes that a particular gene causes depression in 100% of the people that have it.

But, having dealt with it in my life, I definitely agree with you in that:

Depression is far more complex than the simple "Feeling sad" mentality thrown around.

Naikon

bobsoice23 wrote: »

Yea I have been depressed before and have to fight to keep it away every day.I was on the floor for too long,stuck there by some serious cellotape haha.It was at it's worst around my 18th when I was going out with someone aswell.I still can't shake off the embarrassment I feel about that time,it was the definition of hell on earth.The friends I had at the time were amazing aswell considering how ****ed I was.By the way...nothing really triggered my depression,it felt more like an inevaitability that just came round every so often to rock my world.That said I was always fairly shy and tend to over think things.I think what got me off the floor was just saying..feck this ****e don't take things too seriously and go back to basics,easier said than done but you have to start somewhere:D Hope this helps someone.

Glad to hear you are better. That is the cardinal rule of life: "don't take it too seriously" Easier said then done, but I like to think of life as a game, where I have to mould it to my advantage:P

Sure, isn't living the ultimate "**** you" or "up yours!" to the universe, who is hell bent on making life as difficult as possible? I like to think it is.

bobsoice23

How's it going Sea Sharp.I've had this conversation in the past and definately think there's a case for people with certain genes being more susceptible to depression.And in regards to the 100 % of people,Don't just exagerate your point to make it sound rediculous.

Naikon

Sea Sharp wrote: »

I won't, but I'll still maintain that it's probabilistic.
I believe that the correlation between lifestyle and depression (that was covered earlier in the thread by the 'there's no depressed animals in the wild' argument) takes away from the 'blame it on genetics' point of view.

I doubt, although I'm very much open to correction, that the research you're referring to concludes that a particular gene causes depression in 100% of the people that have it.

But, having dealt with it in my life, I definitely agree with you in that:

Ok, I will respect your position(neither of us are infallible in this regard). Basically, there are so many variables present, it ultimately depends on the individual. I just think, genetics plays a bigger part then we are lead to believe. Just because you have no history of depression, does not exempt you from developing life threatening Depression. On the flipside, the most depressed family known has a son who breaks convention by not having the diesease. I don't believe that 100% chance of depression fully btw. Researchers are still human after all. Error has to be taken into account.

bobsoice23

What gives the case for genetics having a role in depression more credibility for me is that there is a strong and very evident history of depression in my imediate and wider family.A whole bunch of nerves thrown on top for good measure

Wibbs

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Is it though?
Granted, severe depression can be described as a chemical imbalance, but that chemical imbalance is caused by a person's lifestyle and/or relationships.
Medication corrects the imbalance. Counselling helps people identify what may be causing the imbalance.

Sorry no, there is zero evidence that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Some of the drug companies tried to sell this idea as a way of explaining how their drugs worked, but like I say no evidence. Serotonin a good example. Ohh low serotonin levels mean depressed. Wrong. Women on average have much lower levels than men. Individuals within a gender can have big variability and their levels dont match up with rates of depression.

Dean820 wrote: »

I am really dreading tomorrow night. New Years Eve is usually the most depressing time of the year for me, personally. One of my friends bailed on me earlier tonight as well, we had previously made some plans which would of actually of been a laugh. I've another friend in Dublin but it could cost a fair bit traveling up. When that clock hits 12 and I look around its one of the worse feelings in the world.

And all that's prefectly bloody natural in a social animal who is missing out on a shared(and culturally exaggerated) social/cultural event. I can't see how that's within an asses roar of clinical depression. OK yes if you're still down about missing out on New Years in the middle of June, but feeling bad about it now or tomorrow? Seems natural to me. Same if you're long term single or are billy no mates, especially through circumstance. You will feel down. Your human social brain will fire off emotional pain, in much the same way as stubbing your toe causes physical pain. It's your body telling you "eh here deal with this, its damaging".

Sea Sharp wrote: »

You can't really say that a person is suffering from depression because they have a particular gene. The thing with the scientific studies that show links between depression and DNA is that these links are probabilistic.
Say for example:
Person A (no genes related to depression) and person B (has gene related to depression) go through life events X,Y & Z, then person A is 50% likely to develop depression while person B is 80% likely to develop depression.
Genetics effect the probability of you developing depression but, regardless of your DNA, it was events X,Y & Z that caused the depression.

I'd tend to agree. Its defo multifactoral. I'd liken it to obesity. Obesity is "natural" and genetic. One reason we may have beaten the other early humans is we put on fat when we overate, they put on muscle. The latter costs more biologically. So storing excess fat for lean times is built into modern humans. Does this mean being a fat git is genetic? Clearly not. Well not unless a new fat gene has popped up in the last 2 generations.