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Sinn Fein north and south what-if

2

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  • #32
    Belfast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    PomBear wrote: »
    All other Governmental Parties in Dublin as well as SDLP claim to want a united Ireland also

    in theory they want a United Ireland in practice I think is scares them.

    in practice a united Ireland is a "a pious aspersions" not something they hope will happen any time soon if ever.


  • #33
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    As the posters before me have said it will take a majority vote from nationalists in the north to unify Ireland.

    This country also has a constitution, remember? It would also take a majority vote in Ireland also - regardless of what might happen in Northern Ireland. It is, of course, therefore possible that Northern Ireland might vote for unification, and the south might not, in which case nothing changes.

    Its worth point out also that recent polls in Northern Ireland suggest that the appetite for unification is far less than that which would be required, and that a merely sectarian perspective on demographics is insufficient to predict any form of political preference. Sinn Fein had been calling for a referendum (a border poll) for years, they've backed away now unless specifically asked, presumably because they know that their 'cause' would get a hiding. Then again, their recent bout of morals in actual engaging in democratic politics in Norther Ireland would also seem to suggest that they have long tacitly accepted that the status quo isn't going to change for the foreseeable.


  • #34
    PomBear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Belfast wrote: »
    in theory they want a United Ireland in practice I think is scares them.

    in practice a united Ireland is a "a pious aspersions" not something they hope will happen any time soon if ever.

    "pious aspersions"? :pac:

    People would have said the same about the rising, and the same about the GFA and many other times in SF's history.

    One thing that they have yet to achieve is a united Ireland but ending partition is something that has being talked about, studied, economically and politically and tested and theorised in that manner. Before that the same was done will full independence and those "pious aspirations" they had back then seemed worth it, no? So, why stop? People gave up their lives for full independence, and nothing but....


  • #35
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    PomBear wrote: »
    "pious aspersions"? :pac:

    People would have said the same about the rising, and the same about the GFA and many other times in SF's history.

    One thing that they have yet to achieve is a united Ireland but ending partition is something that has being talked about, studied, economically and politically and tested and theorised in that manner. Before that the same was done will full independence and those "pious aspirations" they had back then seemed worth it, no? So, why stop? People gave up their lives for full independence, and nothing but....
    The majority of people in the Irish Republic wanted that. The majority don't in Northern Ireland. The key difference. Sinn Fein will never bring a United Ireland about. The majority of us Unionists hate them with a passion.


  • #36
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The majority of people in the Irish Republic wanted that. The majority don't in Northern Ireland. The key difference. Sinn Fein will never bring a United Ireland about. The majority of us Unionists hate them with a passion.


    Are these the same unionists that are in a power sharing government with them,as there from the majority unionist party.

    And when the GFA is implemented and the majority of people vote for a united Ireland what then keith ? will you and your supporters support it ?


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  • #37
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    realies wrote: »
    Are these the same unionists that are in a power sharing government with them,as there from the majority unionist party.

    And when the GFA is implemented and the majority of people vote for a united Ireland what then keith ? will you and your supporters support it ?
    No problem with power sharing. That is the GFA. Doesn't mean you can't hate them.

    As for your 2nd point, it seems to be the other way around. More Catholics actually want to be in the UK than Protestants want to join a United Ireland. The will amongst the Protestant people is strong and loyal.


  • #38
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    [QUOTE=KeithAFC;73550682 it seems to be the other way around. More Catholics actually want to be in the UK than Protestants want to join a United Ireland. The will amongst the Protestant people is strong and loyal.[/QUOTE]

    If its this poll where talking about its being rejected.

    Sinn Féin Assembly member Barry McElduff said the finding that only 16 per cent of the population desired unification was “very hard to view as credible” and the real debate should be resolved by calling a referendum on a united Ireland.
    “The Life and Times survey needs to ask why it arrives at a figure of only 16 per cent of people within the North wanting a united Ireland when, with Sinn Féin’s clear position of uniting this country, the party received over 26 per cent of the vote in the latest election,” he said.

    He has a very valid point.


  • #39
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    realies wrote: »
    If its this poll where talking about its being rejected.

    Sinn Féin Assembly member Barry McElduff said the finding that only 16 per cent of the population desired unification was “very hard to view as credible” and the real debate should be resolved by calling a referendum on a united Ireland.
    “The Life and Times survey needs to ask why it arrives at a figure of only 16 per cent of people within the North wanting a united Ireland when, with Sinn Féin’s clear position of uniting this country, the party received over 26 per cent of the vote in the latest election,” he said.

    He has a very valid point.
    Not even talking about the poll. Be honest with yourself. More Catholics in Northern Ireland want to stay in the UK than Protestants who want to join a United Ireland.


  • #40
    PomBear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The majority of people in the Irish Republic wanted that. The majority don't in Northern Ireland. The key difference. Sinn Fein will never bring a United Ireland about. The majority of us Unionists hate them with a passion.

    Many of the majority at the moment are told from a young age about unionism/loyalism etc. and indoctrinated against the idea of breaking away from Britain and will not give it thought. For many it will have to be when unity happens, they will see the benefits of a united Ireland. The effects of being ruled from London is not working and that will hopefully soon cease to be. Catholics who want Irish unity, however, have seen the adverse effect and the discrimination they received during the troubles and beforehand so you cannot blame them for wanting to be governed by their native government


  • #41
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    PomBear wrote: »
    Many of the majority at the moment are told from a young age about unionism/loyalism etc. and indoctrinated against the idea of breaking away from Britain and will not give it thought. For many it will have to be when unity happens, they will see the benefits of a united Ireland. The effects of being ruled from London is not working and that will hopefully soon cease to be. Catholics who want Irish unity, however, have seen the adverse effect and the discrimination they received during the troubles and beforehand so you cannot blame them for wanting to be governed by their native government
    And the Republican movement isn't and the propaganda? Lets not kid ourselves please.

    A lot of people are just loyal and want to remain in the Union. I don't see the problem with that. People are entitled to what ever political view they want, but all signs is Northern Ireland is here to stay as a country. We have resisted the rule from Dublin for a long time now. I don't see that changing any time soon.


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  • #42
    PomBear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    And the Republican movement isn't and the propaganda? Lets not kid ourselves please.

    A lot of people are just loyal and want to remain in the Union. I don't see the problem with that. People are entitled to what ever political view they want, but all signs is Northern Ireland is here to stay as a country. We have resisted the rule from Dublin for a long time now. I don't see that changing any time soon.

    There is indoctrination in both communities I never said otherwise.

    loyal to what exactly?
    People are but people views are and can change, and whenever the demographics switch to a majority wanting a united Ireland, i'm sure it'll only be a matter of time until a united Ireland.


  • #43
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    if sinn fein came to power both north and south it would change everything. sinn feins ideology is based on the ideology of the legitimate rulers of this country who laid the very foundation of irish independence in the first dail.

    ireland was well and truly independent before ''northern'' ireland ever came into existance. the 1916 rising, the 1918 mandate and the first dail are all testament to that.
    ireland is free

    if sinn fein came to power both north and south they would follow in the footsteps of the men of the first dail irregardless of any false majority


  • #44
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    How would a referendum work in reality?

    For the Good Friday agreement Ireland had a referendum to remove the territorial claim on NI.

    A new referendum in NI would be a simple enough question, stay as part of the UK or become part of Ireland.

    In Ireland, would it be a parallel referendum with the question of whether or not to reinstate the territorial claim on NI?


  • #45
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    murraykil wrote: »
    How would a referendum work in reality?

    For the Good Friday agreement Ireland had a referendum to remove the territorial claim on NI.

    A new referendum in NI would be a simple enough question, stay as part of the UK or become part of Ireland.

    In Ireland, would it be a parallel referendum with the question of whether or not to reinstate the territorial claim on NI?

    adopting a declaration of independence is all it would take by an all island party. it has already been done in 1919. as you may know, the provos/sinn feins claim to legitimacy, derives from this very delaration of indepedence ratified in 1919. when people vote for sinn fein,they vote for the declaration of independence which was ratified in 1919.


  • #46
    end a eknny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭end a eknny


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    No problem with power sharing. That is the GFA. Doesn't mean you can't hate them.

    As for your 2nd point, it seems to be the other way around. More Catholics actually want to be in the UK than Protestants want to join a United Ireland. The will amongst the Protestant people is strong and loyal.
    i know loads of protestants living in the 26 counties who are happy to live in the republic of ireland and would love to be joined by there 6 county brethern


  • #47
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    paky wrote: »
    adopting a declaration of independence is all it would take by an all island party. it has already been done in 1919. as you may know, the provos/sinn feins claim to legitimacy, derives from this very delaration of indepedence ratified in 1919. when people vote for sinn fein,they vote for the declaration of independence which was ratified in 1919.

    The changes to the constitution in 1999 requires a referendum in both Northern Ireland and Ireland before a United Ireland could occur.


  • #48
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    end a eknny wrote: »
    i know loads of protestants living in the 26 counties who are happy to live in the republic of ireland and would love to be joined by there 6 county brethern
    Compared to the vast amount which don't and the majority which don't in Northern Ireland.


  • #49
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Not even talking about the poll. Be honest with yourself. More Catholics in Northern Ireland want to stay in the UK than Protestants who want to join a United Ireland.

    The current economic climate has likely increased the number of Catholics in Northern Ireland who are wanting to stay in the UK.


  • #50
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    murraykil wrote: »
    The changes to the constitution in 1999 requires a referendum in both Northern Ireland and Ireland before a United Ireland could occur.

    anything that came after 1919 will be invalidated once sinn fein adopt the approach which i have just outlined. partition is illegal and anything brought about by partition is illegal, even the 26 county and 6 county institutions are. you need to understand it from this perspective. its the only way irish unity/independence will come about. wating for a majority in northern ireland to accept this would take hundreds of years and is completely illogical and is contrary to irish self determination


  • #51
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    paky wrote: »
    anything that came after 1919 will be invalidated once sinn fein adopt the approach which i have just outlined. partition is illegal and anything brought about by partition is illegal, even the 26 county and 6 county institutions are. you need to understand it from this perspective. its the only way irish unity/independence will come about. wating for a majority in northern ireland to accept this would take hundreds of years and is completely illogical and is contrary to irish self determination
    That is beyond stupid. People really need to read and understand what the Good Friday Agreement is and what it means. As long as the MAJORITY of people in NORTHERN IRELAND want to remain in the Union, then anything else happening elsewhere is completely irrelevant. The country has been going for a long time now and it will stay that way. Your hundreds of years comment are interesting. So what, if the majority of people want it to remain that way, then it shall remain the way it is.


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  • #52
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    That is beyond stupid. People really need to read and understand what the Good Friday Agreement is and what it means. As long as the MAJORITY of people in NORTHERN IRELAND want to remain in the Union, then anything else happening elsewhere is completely irrelevant. The country has been going for a long time now and it will stay that way. Your hundreds of years comment are interesting. So what, if the majority of people want it to remain that way, then it shall remain the way it is.

    you lot werent too concerned about the wishes of the majority of the irish people when we declared our independence. it meant shag all. the brits just partitioned the island without the consent of the majority of the irish people. why should we give a damn about what you want since you are an artificial majority created by a foreign power? sinn fein will wipe its arse with the gfa once its in their favour to do so.


  • #53
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    paky wrote: »
    you lot werent too concerned about the wishes of the majority of the irish people when we declared our independence. it meant shag all. the brits just partitioned the island without the consent of the majority of the irish people. why should we give a damn about what you want since you are an artificial majority created by a foreign power? sinn fein will wipe its arse with the gfa once its in their favour to do so.
    Are you serious? I think the majority of people don’t actually care about any elections that far back. We are talking about the now and the Good Friday Agreement. And it is interesting with your “favour” comment on Sinn Fein. That is the whole point. For Sinn Fein to get a United Ireland, they will need a majority within Northern Ireland. That is the fundamental fact. All signs point towards that not being the case for the foreseeable future.

    The Good Friday Agreement was basically designed to put the future of the country in the hands of the people of Northern Ireland and the wishes of the majority within that country and to let politics do the talking. That was the whole point of it and that is what it is all about. The 1918 points are completely irrelevant if we are talking about the now.


  • #54
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    paky wrote: »
    partition is illegal...
    Please cite relevant legislation and/or case law.


  • #55
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Are you serious? I think the majority of people don’t actually care about any elections that far back. We are talking about the now and the Good Friday Agreement. And it is interesting with your “favour” comment on Sinn Fein. That is the whole point. For Sinn Fein to get a United Ireland, they will need a majority within Northern Ireland. That is the fundamental fact. All signs point towards that not being the case for the foreseeable future.

    The Good Friday Agreement was basically designed to put the future of the country in the hands of the people of Northern Ireland and the wishes of the majority within that country and to let politics do the talking. That was the whole point of it and that is what it is all about. The 1918 points are completely irrelevant if we are talking about the now.

    the 1918 points are totally relevant, the reason being that this is the only ideology sinn fein abides by. the first dail is viewed by sinn fein as the only legitimate government which ever existed in ireland since it had a legtimate mandate from the 1918 general election. any partiton which came after that never recieved a mandate for its jusification and therefore making it invalid and illegal


  • #56
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    paky wrote: »
    the 1918 points are totally relevant, the reason being that this is the only ideology sinn fein abides by. the first dail is viewed by sinn fein as the only legitimate government which ever existed in ireland since it had a legtimate mandate from the 1918 general election. any partiton which came after that never recieved a mandate for its jusification and therefore making it invalid and illegal
    The good friday agreement was passed by popular referendum in both both jurisdictions on this island. Sinn Féin not only accepts this agreement they helped write it! Your refusal to accept the gfa is tantamount to rejecting the will of the Irish people.

    And don't exaggerate, it's annoying. Northern Ireland is not occupied and it's status as a home nation of the United Kingdom is perfectly legal.


  • #57
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    paky wrote: »
    anything that came after 1919 will be invalidated once sinn fein adopt the approach which i have just outlined. partition is illegal and anything brought about by partition is illegal, even the 26 county and 6 county institutions are. you need to understand it from this perspective. its the only way irish unity/independence will come about. wating for a majority in northern ireland to accept this would take hundreds of years and is completely illogical and is contrary to irish self determination

    Sorry dude but you are wrong. We all know that there have been illegal and immoral acts in the history of Irish politics, but we live in 2011 and by the 1999 referendums.

    Even if Sinn Féin became the sole and majority Government party in both Northern Ireland and Ireland, they cannot make these changes that you speak of without the consent (by referendum in both NI and IE) of the majority of the population of both Northern Ireland and Ireland.


  • #58
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    No problem with power sharing. That is the GFA. Doesn't mean you can't hate them.

    As for your 2nd point, it seems to be the other way around. More Catholics actually want to be in the UK than Protestants want to join a United Ireland. The will amongst the Protestant people is strong and loyal.

    Leave religion out of it for a minute wil you this sectarian nonsense is becoming embarrassing. Dividing people according to which mass they celebrate isnt a part of real politics.


  • #59
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    paky wrote: »
    you lot werent too concerned about the wishes of the majority of the irish people when we declared our independence. it meant shag all. the brits just partitioned the island without the consent of the majority of the irish people. why should we give a damn about what you want since you are an artificial majority created by a foreign power? sinn fein will wipe its arse with the gfa once its in their favour to do so.

    If Sinn Fein "wipes its arse" with the GFA then the'll be giving a similar two fingers to the wishes of the majority of Ireland.

    I didn't allow murderers to be released in order for this crap to be resurrected.

    We voted to allow the North to decide for itself. No Sinn Fein party or anyone else has the authority to override that.


  • #60
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Leave religion out of it for a minute wil you this sectarian nonsense is becoming embarrassing. Dividing people according to which mass they celebrate isnt a part of real politics.
    It isn't me which bases all these polls on peoples religious background. I think it is well known around the province.


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  • #61
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    It isn't me which bases all these polls on peoples religious background. I think it is well known around the province.

    Yea its all the polls fault alright
    The will amongst the Protestant people is strong and loyal.


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