The Mass in Ireland

Jester Minute

Ok so this is an issue very close to my heart.

I am very tired with the routine deformations and abuses in the Mass, from priests changing the words of the Creed, the Gospel and other Scriptural readings, ignoring the rubrics of the Mass, leaving bits out, adding bits of their own, treating the Blessed Sacrament with contempt etc...

I find it very difficult to benefit in any way from my attendance at Mass. Really, I only attend Mass locally to fulfil my Sunday obligation. Attendance at the Extraordinary Form is no guarantee of reverence either. At one I attend from time to time, the priest rattles through the Latin at an awful rate - it leaves you feeling a bit miffed by the end of it, given it seems the whole exercise must be got over with ASAP.

So I was interested in this interview with the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, His Eminence Antonio Card. Cañizares Llovera.

There's a post here from Fr Z, with comments on the article, and you can get a link to the full Italian article here (Google translate makes a readable version):
http://www.ilgiornale.it/interni/il_cardinale_canizares_basta_messa_creativa_chiesa_silenzio_e_preghiera/24-12-2010/articolo-id=495921-page=0-comments=1

So I was wondering about the thoughts and feelings of other Catholics on boards.ie and what if anything we can do at the local level to improve the situation, beyond praying for a sudden flurry of obedience and reverence among priests who have not been well-served by their formation here in Ireland.

I'm thinking there are a lot of books and good articles, blogs and so on, which I read, and many lay-Catholics read, but we have no power of influence - many priests would perhaps have a negative attitude towards lay people knowing more than they do, especially about liturgical matters, however, this is often the case. Priests claim to be busy, so they certainly won't be reading blogs or books about liturgy. Most of them, that is, there are a few exceptions even here in Ireland.

This book is worth a read, even if it is a bit crap in places:
http://www.amazon.com/Liturgy-Betrayed-Denis-Crouan/dp/0898707994
(Read the review by Alcuin Reid)

The book makes the point that the Mass which was produced after Vatican II virtually doesn't exist anywhere (in a few places it does - French monasteries, Rome, the odd parish here or there...) such is the extent to the abuses and deformations of the liturgy.

When I go to Mass, all I want is what the Church wants me to have (as indicated by its Missal, Church documents, decrees, laws etc...), but my priests and bishops won't give it to me. What can be done? I'm suffering because my pastoral needs are not being met. My parents also complain, and they are not liturgical enthusiasts like me, they just know nonsense when they see and hear it. I imagine many average Catholics know something is up and are unhappy, but they may not be able to well articulate it.

These are some of the abuses which take place regularly at my parish:

Sanitizing Mass texts to attempt to make them gender inclusive. N.B. The Latin word homines is a generic term referring to both men and women, in contrast to the Latin word, vir, for a man—a male hominus, so to speak—and the word, femina, for a woman. So when English translates homines as “men” it means both males and females.

use of non-precious metal containers for Holy Communion

Use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (EMHC) not in accordance with Church norms (I've seen over 20 priests on the altar and yet EMHCs were still used).

Have EMHC approach altar after the priest's Communion, not during the Our Father, which is incorrect and distracts the congregation from the Lord's Prayer. Have them receive HC right before they proceed to distribute it to the others.

non-adherance to the rubrics and words of the Roman Missal and GIRM

Cease the current practise of EMHCs accessing the Tabernacle

stop dumping the Eucharist into containers (I've seen priests and EMHC dump the Blessed Sacrament by tipping the ciborium into another one in a most unpleasant fashion. IF such things are to be done, they should be done by priest at the altar.)

changing the words of the Creed (replacing 'men' with 'people')

changing the words of the Gospel ('men' to 'men and women', 'women and men', or 'people')

omitting responsorial Psalm (replacing it with a song)

(These are all abuses. Why not tell us about the ones you've witnessed in your parish and what can be done?)

To ensure a constructive discussion among Catholics, I would kindly ask that only Catholics respond to this thread.

PDN

Sorry, we are no longer allowed to post threads that are limited to Christians Only or Catholics Only. That's not my decision, and I profoundly disagree with it (a view which I would have stated if I was consulted) but they is the rules apparently.

Therefore I have edited the thread title to remove the tag. Jester, if you would prefer to have the thread deleted then PM me and I will do so.

Jester Minute

PDN wrote: »

Sorry, we are no longer allowed to post threads that are limited to Christians Only or Catholics Only. That's not my decision, and I profoundly disagree with it (a view which I would have stated if I was consulted) but they is the rules apparently.

Therefore I have edited the thread title to remove the tag. Jester, if you would prefer to have the thread deleted then PM me and I will do so.

That's fine PDN, I understand. I don't think there will be many Catholic liturgical enthusiasts on boards.ie anyway but I will happily ignore all posts which do not respect the spirit of this thread.

antiskeptic

Jester Minute wrote: »

Ok so this is an issue very close to my heart.

And very distant from mine, as you know. But since it's an allied issue I was hoping you wouldn't mind my piggy backing and wondering on the Irish Catholics view of the (relatively*) lightspeed sermon recommendation from Rome.

The homily in general should not go over eight minutes – the average amount of time for a listener to concentrate," he said, adding that clergy should keep abreast of current affairs so that a sermon addresses issues of local or national concern.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/12/vatican-advises-shorter-catholic-sermons

*Up my evangelical way, the sermon would be 35-40 minutes and I'd welcome it going longer.

Jester Minute

antiskeptic wrote: »

And very distant from mine, as you know. But since it's an allied issue I was hoping you wouldn't mind my piggy backing and wondering on the Irish Catholics view of the (relatively*) lightspeed sermon recommendation from Rome.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/12/vatican-advises-shorter-catholic-sermons

*Up my evangelical way, the sermon would be 35-40 minutes and I'd welcome it going longer.

That is just the opinion of one bishop made in a book he wrote. It has no binding effect on the Church anywhere. Unfortunately, when anyone based in Rome says anything about anything, the media often spin it and say 'Vatican says...'

I'd feel short-changed if I got an 8 minute sermon, however, if it is rubbish anyway, best get it over with ASAP. Priests should stop treating their congregations like twits. Some of them are twits, but there are genuine seekers too - people who've never understood the Gospel and deserve to know, as well as those more mature in the faith who need spiritual nourishment. Instead of candyfloss and empty platitudes, (the sermon on Xmas day in my Church really amounted to 'Christ came so that we might have a good time at Xmas so enjoy yourself it's what God wants!) they should try actually putting careful time and study into the Sunday sermon. Those who are interested will listen, those who are not will switch off. If you are coming to Mass looking for a quick Mass, you are not there for the right reason. The genuine seekers who are present deserve a spiritually nourishing and intellectually rich sermon. One rarely gets that. You get it if you watch EWTN, but most priests in Ireland are not willing/capable of giving such a good quality of sermon. As well as other factors, the desire not to 'cause offense' means many priests are not happy to teach about faith and morals, so avoid any practical talk about sins, specifically sexual sins which are widespread among Catholics in Ireland, including amongst those who still attend Mass, whether every Sunday, or only at Christmas and Easter, like contraception and co-habitation.

A sermon is only mandatory on Sundays and holy days.

goat2

is it proper to have the collection boxes passed round at funeral masses

Jester Minute

goat2 wrote: »

is it proper to have the collection boxes passed round at funeral masses

If it's a scheduled Sunday Mass it is proper to have a collection but not at a weekday Mass.

Plowman

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Jester Minute

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

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Festus

Jester Minute wrote: »

That's fine PDN, I understand. I don't think there will be many Catholic liturgical enthusiasts on boards.ie anyway but I will happily ignore all posts which do not respect the spirit of this thread.

You could go with "Catholic responses prefered" as this is not in any way shape or form restrictive and in the opening post suggest that respondees can put those posters known not to be Catholic or Catholic friendly can be put on their ignore list if they wish.

Won't stop the trolls having a go at killing a thread but it should give it a fighting chance if the trolls wind up talking to themselves

Plowman

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homer911

Keeping it on a Catholic theme, have you compared the mass in your local church with that in any other church? You may find that that grass is no greener..

Jester Minute

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

All the information is here: http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm

There is also an information leaflet on EMHCs and their proper use here:
http://www.evangelizationstation.com/Pamphlets/431%20The%20Proper%20use%20of%20Extraordinary%20Ministers%20of%20the%20Eucharist.pdf

Redemptionis Sacramentum ~ On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist is also applicable.