Tenant house flooded - what to do??

stressedagain

I need some advise here, our house was flooded over the christmas and the management company called us to let us know that there was a lot of damage. We have the house rented but the tenants had gone home for christmas. Not sure if insurance company will cover all the damage as seemingly some of the pipes were old. What I need to ask is:

Do we need to cover accomodation for the tenants while they cannot live in the property?
Do we need to cover their belongings?

Sorry a bit green when it come to this sort of thing but we rented our house out as we couldnt afford to live there anymore and then this happens

Mr. Presentable

If they have a tenancy contract with you, then you have to house them, yes.

If through your own negligence - no insurance, old pipes - they have lost belongings, then yes, you must replace them

Doom

You should have landlord insurance, and they should have contents insurance, if neither of ye have this its gonna be a mess.

Hope works out

Paulw

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

If through your own negligence - no insurance, old pipes - they have lost belongings, then yes, you must replace them

That's incorrect.

They need to have contents insurance. You can't insure someone else's goods.

You have no obligation to replace their contents. It is up to them to have them properly insured, and up to them to replace.

Your management company block insurance policy will not cover contents at all, and will only cover structural issues.

stressedagain

Thanks for the replies, the property is covered with our management fees so as it is structural I would imagine they have it covered. Thankfully nothing is really damaged of the tenants but of course we would cover it.... what my biggest question is.... Do we need to cover our tenants accomodation while the property is inhabitable??? They have moved into a property which is costing €100 per night :eek: do we pay this or just deduct the amount of days from their rent??

Thanks again

Yawns

Afaik you will not be liable for their contents. But You will have to provide accomadation or refund them cost of hotel. Within reason of course. It's up to you to provide a speedy structural repair so if it take you a month to repair, they need to live in a hotel / hostel / w/e for a month.

I don't think you have to pay full accom costs but at least something towards it.

Yawns

€100 per night?

That's a bit much tbh.

Have a ring around urself and get a 2 - 3 star hotel cost. Talk to a manager and explain you need 1 - 2 weeks availability and get a discount. Let them pay for all their own meals too! You should be able to sort soemthing like €50 per night room only. Agree to pay something like 50% of total hotel costs excluding meals etc.

stressedagain

Paulw wrote: »

That's incorrect.

They need to have contents insurance. You can't insure someone else's goods.

You have no obligation to replace their contents. It is up to them to have them properly insured, and up to them to replace.

Your management company block insurance policy will not cover contents at all, and will only cover structural issues.

Think you must have posted this at the same time.... whew, thanks for that.... one thing less to worry about!!

Yawns

Meh just thinking there about the dates. Cos of New Year's everywhere will be up in price. Defo talk to a hotel manager and get a discount!

Chinafoot

Yawns wrote: »

€100 per night?

That's a bit much tbh.

Have a ring around urself and get a 2 - 3 star hotel cost. Talk to a manager and explain you need 1 - 2 weeks availability and get a discount. Let them pay for all their own meals too! You should be able to sort soemthing like €50 per night room only. Agree to pay something like 50% of total hotel costs excluding meals etc.

By all means do this, but do not expect your tenants to stay in a shíthole due to your own negligence with the pipes. €100 a night for 2 people in a hotel at this time of year is standard.

stressedagain

Thanks for the advise,

I will look into it for them, but they have already moved into the other place.... I will offer 50% but if they want the lot then I will just have to give it to them.... they have been good tenants so dont want to lose them either

stressedagain

Chinafoot wrote: »

By all means do this, but do not expect your tenants to stay in a shíthole due to your own negligence with the pipes. €100 a night for 2 people in a hotel at this time of year is standard.

In fairness it was not our negligence either Chinafoot.... they were away for Christmas as the pipes froze and then burst!! I was just wondering what commen practice was.... we will pay of course.... just stings a lot!!

Yawns

A 2 - 3 star hotel doesn't mean a **** hole. It's a just a quieter hotel and not as fancy. It'll cost maybe 50 - 70 per night if you talk to a hotel manager and enquire about them staying for 2 weeks etc. After New Years the hotel will be quiet and they will be looking for guests.

They just have to pay for their own meals.

Graces7

stressedagain wrote: »

In fairness it was not our negligence either Chinafoot.... they were away for Christmas as the pipes froze and then burst!! I was just wondering what commen practice was.... we will pay of course.... just stings a lot!!

Given the weather already in force then, they should have drained the system and turned the water off; maybe next time give out a fact sheet to ensure that this is done? And make sure they know how to do this.

The main reason for the present water crisis in so many areas is burst pipes in holiday lets; few think to drain and turn off.

That is good maintenance practice.

And we are on the brink of another freezing spell.
Maybe we can leaarn from this one?

Marcin_diy

Yawns wrote: »

A 2 - 3 star hotel doesn't mean a **** hole. They just have to pay for their own meals.

That's not fair ( and this is my opinion only) - If I can't live in a house that i rented, I don't have fridge, I don't have cooker, hobs, kettle, I have no place to prepare my meals, sandwiches etc, Why should I pay for buying food that i could prepare myself much cheaper? I'm not talking about 4* restaurant meals, but things like sandwich, pizza, or lunch in a local pub should be covered by landlord. Dear landlord - get the proper insurance and you won't worry about expenses next time. Insurance won't cos you more than 25 euro per month.

Marcin_diy

Graces7 wrote: »

Given the weather already in force then, they should have drained the system and turned the water off; maybe next time give out a fact sheet to ensure that this is done? And make sure they know how to do this.

The main reason for the present water crisis in so many areas is burst pipes in holiday lets; few think to drain and turn off.

That is good maintenance practice.

And we are on the brink of another freezing spell.
Maybe we can leaarn from this one?

+1 Did you show them how to drain the system and did you ask them to remove water when they are away for some time ?

EKRIUQ

Either way give your tenants notice now, this could take months to sort out. If they move out now they will have their deposit less bills to look for somewhere else. About paying for there accommodation there's nothing in the Residential Tenancies act 2004 to say you have to provide accommodation.

Yawns wrote:

But You will have to provide accomadation or refund them cost of hotel.

Can you please quote some source?

Yawns

You won't have to provide it for them sorry I should have stated it more clearly before.

You don't have to provide accommodation but if they cannot live in the house due to structural damage I believe they are entitled to look for a new place to live and you must give them their deposit back immediately for them to secure a new dwelling.

It makes more sense to come to an agreement if you want to keep the tenants tho. Unless you'd rather lose tenants, have to get place fixed and have no tenants until you advertise the property.

Pkiernan

OP:

You may not be liable for any costs in this case.

Check your lease agreement.

If you have a standard lease agreement, it should contain a line item indicating that the tenants are responsible for damage caused by frost or that they have to take reasonable precautions to guard against it - i.e. not going away for 2 weeks and turning the heating off.

If your tenants did leave the house and turn the heating off in violation of your lease terms, then THEY not you are responsible; in which case they will be footing their own hotel bills and paying for the damage caused.

For proper advice (and not fanciful opinions) on this matter you should visit another forum - irishlandlord.com

This section of boards.ie while well intentioned is often frequented by Landlord hating Threshold activists who think that all property is theft and LL's are imperialist devil worshipers.

You owe it to yourself to see that your property is restored. If you are at fault, then you will have to help your tenants; if they are at fault, then they will have to pay up.

ztoical

Marcin_diy wrote: »

Dear landlord - get the proper insurance and you won't worry about expenses next time. Insurance won't cos you more than 25 euro per month.

The only insurance the LL needs is buildings insurance/landlord insurance to cover the property itself, they are not required to have insurance to cover the tenants belongings nor the cost of housing and feeding the tenants nor is there any such insurance package out there that would cover those expenses.

Yawns wrote: »

You won't have to provide it for them sorry I should have stated it more clearly before.

You don't have to provide accommodation but if they cannot live in the house due to structural damage I believe they are entitled to look for a new place to live and you must give them their deposit back immediately for them to secure a new dwelling.

+ 1 The LL is not obligated to provide housing other then the house named in the lease. They are not a local authority. They and the tenants signed a lease for a named property, said property has now become uninhabitable so the LL cannot charge rent for it and the tenants are within their rights to ask for their deposit back and move on. If the LL and tenants want to come to a deal in order for the tenants to stay at the property after repairs are carried out then that is a private arrangement between the two parties. Yes it may be a pain for the tenants to have to find a new property quickly but they are still making minimum losses compared to if they owned a property. If you own a property and it becomes uninhabitable not only would you have to pay for repairs and pay the costs for accommodation else where you'd still have to pay your mortgage to the bank, they aren't going to care that you can't live in the house. It's an advantage to renting that you can just move on.

Treehouse72

Pkiernan wrote: »

For proper advice (and not fanciful opinions) on this matter you should visit another forum - irishlandlord.com

This section of boards.ie while well intentioned is often frequented by Landlord hating Threshold activists who think that all property is theft and LL's are imperialist devil worshipers.

I'm a raging right-wing capitalist. That's why I hate so many modern Irish landlords - fast-buck chasing, ignorant, unprofessional amateurs who want state subsidies, tax breaks and on-going lender forbearance to support their ill-conceived and loss-making investment decisions. Most of them aren't capitalists or businesspeople at all - they are just chancers and spoofers looking to game our cronyistic, gombeen-infested system. Entirely different things. And it is these peoples' idiotic decisions that have helped cause our national bankruptcy. I guess many of them had, erm, fanciful opinions that they'd be millionaires. Oh well.

And everyone note the phrase "well-intentioned"...could that be any more patronising? As though people here are naive children and the folk over at IrishLandlord are grown-up realists. The truth is largely the exact opposite - it'll just take a bit more time for them to understand that massive debt does not equal massive wealth and that buying property as an investment at any point after about 2003 was an investment error. Our friend here STILL seems to think that investing in property during a property bubble was somehow a cold-headed business decision, and not just going along with the herd like an embarrassingly naive sucker.

I don't think you're an imperialist devil worshiper, just a very silly boy.

dollydishmop

My mother was in a *loosely* similar situation....although, perhaps it wasn't so similar after all, but I'll throw it in the mix anyway.:D

She was a long-term tennant (12 yrs +) in a Grade 1 listed period property in the UK.

The house started sinking into the ground, roof ties broken etc and it became clear very quickly that in order to save the 14th C house major work was required...and obviously, it being a Grade 1 listed building, this was never going to be quick nor straightforward.

At the time the estate didn't have any other empty residential properties to move her into (their preferred option)...so they gave her a budget (approved by their insurance co) and suggested she look for another short-term rental property in the region.

So she found another house, in a nearby town...and moved in there. She continued to pay her original rent to her original landlord, and then her landlord paid the new (short-term) landlord, with the insurance company making up the shortfall in the rent. (new place was higher rent than original place)

2 yrs later, work finished, she moved back into the original property. She never once dealt with the new landlord, other than for the occasional property inspection. In essence her landlord became the 'tennant' on the new property, she just happened to be the person who lived in the house and her contract etc remained with the original landlord.

jayok

Jeez - there is so much landlord hating / tenant abusing peope on here.

For the OP I am / was in a similar situatation as youself. On the 26/12 I got a phone call from the neighbour of my rented house that water was flowing from the overflow pipe. I tried to contact the tenant but they were away for the holiday. However, I did get permission to enter the house so off I went

Upon entering the house, there was water everywhere, pouring down from above! So, I turned off the main water at the stop cock and investiaged. In the attic, I counted five burst pipes AND the day tank (probably 200 litres) was fully frozen!! Off to Woodies and I bought new copper pipes and couplers and I've replaced all the leaks.

Then I set about cleaning-up the damage, I put the heat on full blast and opened the upstairs windows (to get the moisture out). From drying out I notices one of the beds was absolutely soaked, so it was replaced, the pipes were replaced and from a structural point the house was back in action, just over a day later.

Now, if we are to apportion blame, the tenant should not have turned off the heat over the cold-snap. But in their defense, the cold snap has been pretty much unprecendented (it hit -17 degrees), as such it's unfair to start ranting from that perspective. So, instead of forcing the issue I spoke to them about this and we've agreed that we'll all move on from this. I've covered the cost of the new bed and pipes. From their perspective, they will have to carry the costs of leaving the heating on over the next few days to dry out the house.

I think, as a LL, it better to approach the tenant with common sense and work the issue. We are both inconvenienced here, why start with the "its all your fault, you fix it" issues. In closing with the tenant, I said that in the future that if they had any concern with the cold just to let me know, and they tenant asked likewise.

I suppose my overall point here, is work with each other, don't start from an unreasonable standpoint otherwise you'll go nowhere fast.

delllat

jayok wrote: »

Jeez - there is so much landlord hating / tenant abusing peope on here.

For the OP I am / was in a similar situatation as youself. On the 26/12 I got a phone call from the neighbour of my rented house that water was flowing from the overflow pipe. I tried to contact the tenant but they were away for the holiday. However, I did get permission to enter the house so off I went

Upon entering the house, there was water everywhere, pouring down from above! So, I turned off the main water at the stop cock and investiaged. In the attic, I counted five burst pipes AND the day tank (probably 200 litres) was fully frozen!! Off to Woodies and I bought new copper pipes and couplers and I've replaced all the leaks.

Then I set about cleaning-up the damage, I put the heat on full blast and opened the upstairs windows (to get the moisture out). From drying out I notices one of the beds was absolutely soaked, so it was replaced, the pipes were replaced and from a structural point the house was back in action, just over a day later.

Now, if we are to apportion blame, the tenant should not have turned off the heat over the cold-snap. But in their defense, the cold snap has been pretty much unprecendented (it hit -17 degrees), as such it's unfair to start ranting from that perspective. So, instead of forcing the issue I spoke to them about this and we've agreed that we'll all move on from this. I've covered the cost of the new bed and pipes. From their perspective, they will have to carry the costs of leaving the heating on over the next few days to dry out the house.

I think, as a LL, it better to approach the tenant with common sense and work the issue. We are both inconvenienced here, why start with the "its all your fault, you fix it" issues. In closing with the tenant, I said that in the future that if they had any concern with the cold just to let me know, and they tenant asked likewise.

I suppose my overall point here, is work with each other, don't start from an unreasonable standpoint otherwise you'll go nowhere fast.

if the house was as badly flooded as you say i dont know how you fixed it in 24 hours because this process takes most people weeks/months /years

have the ceilings , walls and woodwork soaked up any water ? you would be best to keep checking for further damage

jayok

delllat wrote: »

if the house was as badly flooded as you say i dont know how you fixed it in 24 hours because this process takes most people weeks/months /years

have the ceilings , walls and woodwork soaked up any water ? you would be best to keep checking for further damage

Oh, I know only too well about how much damage can be done and how long it take. Two years ago a burst pipe cost €30,000 to repair. Ceiling collapsed, plastering fell off walls, floors ruined. Teary stuff - and this on the same property Took about 5 months to resolve.

In this instance, we were lucky. We got to the leak on-time, probably only 1-2 hours of a leak on the go and most it it was soaked by the bed. The heating is on to dry the house out and it's progressing well. We are keeping an eye on the humidity levels on the house to be sure there's actual drying going on.

stressedagain

Treehouse72 wrote: »

I'm a raging right-wing capitalist. That's why I hate so many modern Irish landlords - fast-buck chasing, ignorant, unprofessional amateurs who want state subsidies, tax breaks and on-going lender forbearance to support their ill-conceived and loss-making investment decisions. Most of them aren't capitalists or businesspeople at all - they are just chancers and spoofers looking to game our cronyistic, gombeen-infested system. Entirely different things. And it is these peoples' idiotic decisions that have helped cause our national bankruptcy. I guess many of them had, erm, fanciful opinions that they'd be millionaires. Oh well.

And everyone note the phrase "well-intentioned"...could that be any more patronising? As though people here are naive children and the folk over at IrishLandlord are grown-up realists. The truth is largely the exact opposite - it'll just take a bit more time for them to understand that massive debt does not equal massive wealth and that buying property as an investment at any point after about 2003 was an investment error. Our friend here STILL seems to think that investing in property during a property bubble was somehow a cold-headed business decision, and not just going along with the herd like an embarrassingly naive sucker.

I don't think you're an imperialist devil worshiper, just a very silly boy.

Hmmm, this really isnt a thread to have a rant treehouse.... as mentioned this is our primary residence but we cannot sell as we are in negative equity and we cannot afford to live there anymore as i was made redundant and finding it impossible to find work in my field.... we certainly did not intend this as an investment property (although that would have been nice!!) we are now living with my Father. We have taken all necessary measures to ensure we are professional about every tenant dealing, this particular circumstance is a little different and the law is a little unclear.... I do appreciate all of the helpful comments however and will check out landlord.com.

We are of course insured Marcin_diy but as the pipes might not have been insulated we might not be covered, having this debate with the insurance company at the moment!!

delllat

stressedagain wrote: »

Hmmm, this really isnt a thread to have a rant treehouse.... as mentioned this is our primary residence but we cannot sell as we are in negative equity and we cannot afford to live there anymore as i was made redundant and finding it impossible to find work in my field.... we certainly did not intend this as an investment property (although that would have been nice!!) we are now living with my Father. We have taken all necessary measures to ensure we are professional about every tenant dealing, this particular circumstance is a little different and the law is a little unclear.... I do appreciate all of the helpful comments however and will check out landlord.com.

We are of course insured Marcin_diy but as the pipes might not have been insulated we might not be covered, having this debate with the insurance company at the moment!!

insulate any visibly bare pipes now before the insurance company comes out ,they will use it as an excuse to avoid paying anything if they can

The_Conductor

Multiple responsibilities on this one.

From the landlord's perspective- the tenant should not have gone on a holiday in the wintertime without ensuring that the heating was turned on for a short time every day. This would minimise the risk of burst pipes and/or humidity in the property.

From the tenant's perspective- the heating system may have been poorly conceived or improperly installed- and in any case, the protracted cold spell could not have been anticipated.

From the insurance company's perspective- the cold snap was forecast in advance (as indeed is the snap forecast for this weekend onwards). If the system was poorly conceived (aka lack of pipe insulation etc) or if the tenant vacated the property without heating during this period, they may use this as an excuse to reduce any potential claim.

Note: vis-a-vis giving the tenant instructions on how to drain the system (Graces7 above)- while lovely in theory, is improbable and impractical in practice. Normal practice at the moment is to advise on turning the heating on for 2-3 short durations every 24 hour period (gas systems installed since 1994 tend to have a 24 hour timer with multiple on/off slots that can be specified- and similar can be fitted to oil boilers). With respect of the current water shortages nationwide- a short note to the tenant advising of the water shortage, giving them details of the council's website where they can find updates, along with step-by-step instructions on how to remove airlocks from the heating system (perhaps even providing a key) would be considered best practise.

The_Conductor

With respect of supplying alternate accommodation to the tenant while the current property is inhabitable, unless the damage is minimal and can be sorted in a reasonable timeframe- I am not of the belief that this is the duty of the landlord- the tenancy would be void, and it would be up to the tenant to source new accommodation. If it could be shown that the damage to the property was a result of inaction on the part of the landlord or tenant- any claim may be apportioned by the insurance company as their accessor sees fit. It would be up to the PRTB to decide whether this constituted damage above normal wear and tear. In practise landlords would probably refund the deposit in full- as dealing with the damage and the insurance company would be sufficient for them.

With respect of damage to the tenant's belongings- this would be covered by their own insurance policy- landlord's are not entitled to insure the property of a tenant in a rented property (as it is not deemed an insurable risk for them).

bigneacy

Yawns wrote: »

€100 per night?

That's a bit much tbh.

Have a ring around urself and get a 2 - 3 star hotel cost. Talk to a manager and explain you need 1 - 2 weeks availability and get a discount. Let them pay for all their own meals too! You should be able to sort soemthing like €50 per night room only. Agree to pay something like 50% of total hotel costs excluding meals etc.

ring round the b&b's. tell them you need something cheap and cheerful self catering for a couple of weeks. they should give you a price of maybe 100 or 150 per week.

Also ask nicely if they can use their cooking facilities while they are there. Most B&B's are that quiet this time of the year they'll jump at the opportunity.

The_Conductor

bigneacy wrote: »

ring round the b&b's. tell them you need something cheap and cheerful self catering for a couple of weeks. they should give you a price of maybe 100 or 150 per week.

Also ask nicely if they can use their cooking facilities while they are there. Most B&B's are that quiet this time of the year they'll jump at the opportunity.

Just why do you imagine that the landlord has an obligation to provide alternate accommodation for the tenant?

Given the changes in most insurance policies after the drubbing insurance companies took last January- its more probable that not that any flood damage may take a lot longer to assess and rectify (than previously).

I'm opening this to the floor- please indicate where in Irish legislation that its stated that its the duty of a landlord to source or pay for alternate accommodation in a situation such as this.

Please note- in common with the thread from last January- links to websites or UK or French law- are not what is being sought here- Irish law in Ireland please.