The sack a manager thread

mike65

How long does one give a manager?
When should a club move against the manager?
Does the risk of mid-season change outweight the risk of doing nothing and hoping it'll come right in time?
Can one throw money at the problem and hope that works if the manager seems at sea?
If changing mid-season is it worth seeking a full time replacement which may take some time or should an existing member of staff get the job until the summer?
Is paying off a hefty contract mioney worth spending?

To kick things off would it make sense for LFC do bite the bullet? Will West Ham regret giving Avram Grant a target which he has met and so in theory is now safe until May?

flahavaj

You can't generalise, every case is different, every club will have different expectations, a club might be going through a bad run but good decisions may be being made that will benefit the club in the long run, or a manager may be doing so badly that firing him seems the only option. Theres no one rule that fits all.

This thread is just gonna be come another "fire Roy" debate regardless.

kilburn

NO lets make it a fire Houllier rant

fkiely

I think a lot of the arguments being floated around recently are systemic of a wider issue within the footballing world, that of nouveau, unrealistic ambitions of your average fan. There is no patience in the game anymore. Due to a combination of tabloid/sky agendas and a wider social context, fans (as well as society in general) want and demand instant gratification. Sadly this has become inherent in the managerial profession now as well.

Gillington

fkiely wrote: »

I think a lot of the arguments being floated around recently are systemic of a wider issue within the footballing world, that of nouveau, unrealistic ambitions of your average fan. There is no patience in the game anymore. Due to a combination of tabloid/sky agendas and a wider social context, fans (as well as society in general) want and demand instant gratification. Sadly this has become inherent in the managerial profession now as well.

This is how I feel,as Kuyt or someone was saying before the Liverpool game,Hodgson was manager of the year last season and now nearly every Liverpool fan wants his head on a plate after last night.

I think managers should be given the season anyway but as already stated,each case is different.If hodgson was still at Fulham and hey had the same start as Liverpool have this season,that would be okay by most of the Fulham fans I reckon but becasue its Liverpool its completely differen,

Look at Mancini,papers ran for weeks about how Mark hughes had a better record then him at a certain point of the season and Hughes go he boot,why shouldnt Mancini.Now City have only lost 1 from last 10 league games,second in the table and there would be an outrage if he was sacked.

tl:dr - patience is key!

angel01

Sometimes there is too much patience in the game. Take Roy Keane, anyone with his record at Ipswich would be out the door already.. but because of his football record, he gets longer

Killme00

You could easily argue that all of the managers appointed in 2010 are at risk with the exception of Coyle. There is an expectation to hit the ground running an get results immediately from chairmen, boards and from fans which piles an enormous amount of pressure of managers. Some cope, some dont.

I would say the ones in red are dead and wont see 2012 as managers of their current clubs. Hughes and Ancelotti are at serious risk too but not quite dead yet.

Name Club Appointed 
[COLOR="Red"]Steve Kean (caretaker) Blackburn Rovers 2010 [/COLOR]
Owen Coyle Bolton Wanderers 2010 
[COLOR="red"]Avram Grant West Ham United 2010 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Roy Hodgson Liverpool 2010[/COLOR] 
[COLOR="red"]Gérard Houllier Aston Villa 2010[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Mark Hughes Fulham 2010 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]Alan Pardew Newcastle United 2010 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="royalblue"]Carlo Ancelotti Chelsea 2009[/COLOR] 
Steve Bruce Sunderland 2009 
Roberto Di Matteo West Bromwich Albion 2009 
Ian Holloway Blackpool 2009 
Roberto Mancini Manchester City 2009 
Roberto Martínez Wigan Athletic 2009 
Harry Redknapp Tottenham Hotspur 2008 
Alex McLeish Birmingham City 2007 
Mick McCarthy Wolverhampton Wanderers 2006 
Tony Pulis Stoke City 2006 
David Moyes Everton 2002 
Arsène Wenger Arsenal 1996 
Sir Alex Ferguson Manchester United 1986

everdead.ie

Houillier has to go in my opinion Hodgson not far behind him at least Hodson gets the odd win and doesn't seem to of alienated players so far.

In my opinion though Houillier should go before he can sign anyone with Hodgson it's not too bad if he is given an extra week or two because comolli is taking over player recruitment

fkiely

Killme00 wrote: »

You could easily argue that all of the managers appointed in 2010 are at risk with the exception of Coyle. There is an expectation to hit the ground running an get results immediately from chairmen, boards and from fans which piles an enormous amount of pressure of managers. Some cope, some dont.

I would say the ones in red are dead and wont see 2012 as managers of their current clubs. Hughes and Ancelotti are at serious risk too but not quite dead yet.

Name Club Appointed 
[COLOR=Red]Steve Kean (caretaker) Blackburn Rovers 2010 [/COLOR]
Owen Coyle Bolton Wanderers 2010 
[COLOR=red]Avram Grant West Ham United 2010 [/COLOR]
[COLOR=Red]Roy Hodgson Liverpool 2010[/COLOR] 
[COLOR=red]Gérard Houllier Aston Villa 2010[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Mark Hughes Fulham 2010 [/COLOR]
[COLOR=red]Alan Pardew Newcastle United 2010 [/COLOR]
[COLOR=royalblue]Carlo Ancelotti Chelsea 2009[/COLOR] 
Steve Bruce Sunderland 2009 
Roberto Di Matteo West Bromwich Albion 2009 
Ian Holloway Blackpool 2009 
Roberto Mancini Manchester City 2009 
Roberto Martínez Wigan Athletic 2009 
Harry Redknapp Tottenham Hotspur 2008 
Alex McLeish Birmingham City 2007 
Mick McCarthy Wolverhampton Wanderers 2006 
Tony Pulis Stoke City 2006 
David Moyes Everton 2002 
Arsène Wenger Arsenal 1996 
Sir Alex Ferguson Manchester United 1986

That's a telling indictment isn't it? 13 of the manager currently in the top flight have only been in the job since last year or more recently. And who says football is a fickle game these days...

mike65

The average tenure is 18 months I think.

CSF

No manager should be given less than 2 transfer windows (pretty much a year then) unless relegation seems likely (not just a slight possibility) where relegation was not viewed as a realistic possibility at the start of the season.

If a board has appointed a manager and given them a well-rewarded contract that stretches over a few years, then they must trust that manager to overcome a bad start to their tenure. Anything else is a bad reflection on the board, not the manager. Where there is a change of board and the manager is underachieving (Allardyce does not fit into this category) things are a little different, and the new board may have to clean up the mistake of an old board (eg Hodgson)

Trhiggy83

Interesting thread lads,

A few good points raised above. Firstly why roy Keane has not been sacked by now is beyond me. He clearly cannot man manage people and this has been evident since he has started managing. He has been lucky in a sense that he was very successful with sunderland but his record after that is shocking. I cant understand why chairman employ former footballers who have a good reputation in the game as managers.
This is totally irrelavant,In order to be a good manager you need to have differant charactertics to being just a good footballer. As a manager you need to naturally have the respect of the players, you need to be able to man manage, you need to take a step back from the playing staff and not form any relationships with them in order to make good decisions not based on any relationships you have. you also need to be able to make decisions and stick by them even when people think you are talking rubbish. The great thing about football is that everyone has an opinion whether right or wrong.

The Roy hodgsen saga is an interesting one also. I believe roy is a good manager but i dont believe he has the backing of the club or supporters which does not help. Liverpool are an average team with high expectations, in the past few years i always thought they overachieved by finishing 4th-6th in the league. If you look at their squad, it says it all really- Two or three top quality players only.
I think roy knows his time is up but i think the problems are a bit deeper for liverpool. Their fans have great expectations but on paper their team is not strong at all. I think rafa got out at the right time as he knew they were on the slide and i think the board wont be backing hodgson either in january but they will sack him and use him as a scapegoat when the real problem is that the club cannot compete with the tp clubs financially.

Gerard Houlleir seems to be struggling at villa, he has no respect from the players and it seems like he is only there for the money. Why do chairmen go for the same managers over and over again. For example Sam allerdyce was sacked by newcastle and blackburn. If another premiership team employs him AGAIN they deserve what they get to be honest.

The reason chelsea are doing so bad is no surprise either and do we blame the manager for this im not too sure. They sold carvalleo, Ballack, cole and have not repalced them, they dont have the squad but if they do badly then the manager gets the chop.

CSF

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

For example Sam allerdyce was sacked by newcastle and blackburn. If another premiership team employs him AGAIN they deserve what they get to be honest.

Mid-table safety for a club who are never likely to be fighting for Europe? I'm sure Wolves, West Ham and Wigan would be terrified of the prospect of an Allardyce appointment. Just because the chap is an unlikeable so and so doesn't mean he can't make a team very hard to beat.

CSF

angel01 wrote: »

Sometimes there is too much patience in the game. Take Roy Keane, anyone with his record at Ipswich would be out the door already.. but because of his football record, he gets longer

Ipswich, despite their poor league position, are a stones throw away from the playoffs for a club who do not have a budget that makes playoffs a necessity. In a fair world, a top half finish this season would keep him in a job. Credit to the Ipswich board, they're staying patient and allowing a manager they had faith in, to turn things around.

Again Keane is a victim of his own mouth, if Keane wasn't so outspoken, and didn't have his controversial history as a player, his position at Ipswich would probably be under the radar. There are plenty of similar sized or bigger clubs within 6 points either side of them.

Trhiggy83

CSF wrote: »

Mid-table safety for a club who are never likely to be fighting for Europe? I'm sure Wolves, West Ham and Wigan would be terrified of the prospect of an Allardyce appointment. Just because the chap is an unlikeable so and so doesn't mean he can't make a team very hard to beat.

I think newcastle wanted more than mid table when he was sacked and so do blackburn strangely enough
Why did both teams employ him in the first place, they knew exactly what they were getting, its not as if he was unknown.

I didne say anything about big sam being unlikeable, he quite the opposite actually but limited tactically in my opinion

CSF

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

I think newcastle wanted more than mid table when he was sacked and so do blackburn strangely enough
Why did both teams employ him in the first place, they knew exactly what they were getting, its not as if he was unknown.

I didne say anything about big sam being unlikeable, he quite the opposite actually but limited tactically in my opinion

I think most would agree with him being unlikeable. And just because Newcastle and Blackburn had ideas above their station and budget, does not make Allardyce a bad proposition for a Premiership club outside the 8 usual European chasing clubs (Arsenal, Villa, Chelsea, Everton, City, United, Pool, Spurs) as you stated to be the case.

Trhiggy83

CSF wrote: »

I think most would agree with him being unlikeable. And just because Newcastle and Blackburn had ideas above their station and budget, does not make Allardyce a bad proposition for a Premiership club outside the 8 usual European chasing clubs (Arsenal, Villa, Chelsea, Everton, City, United, Pool, Spurs) as you stated to be the case.

What annoys me though is that its the same managers end up managing differant clubs in the same league. If one club sacks them then you would think he cant be great at what he does, if two clubs sack him then i think its time to look elsewhere. The sorry thing about big sam and others is that they dont care who they manage and they dont care if they are sacked cos they will just pick up another job in a few months with a big payoff if they get the sack again. I cant figure it out. Why are managers not on shorter contracts. Alan pardew must have the best agent in the game after getting a 5 and a half year contract. He wins the lottery if he gets the sack

CSF

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

What annoys me though is that its the same managers end up managing differant clubs in the same league. If one club sacks them then you would think he cant be great at what he does, if two clubs sack him then i think its time to look elsewhere. The sorry thing about big sam and others is that they dont care who they manage and they dont care if they are sacked cos they will just pick up another job in a few months with a big payoff if they get the sack again. I cant figure it out. Why are managers not on shorter contracts. Alan pardew must have the best agent in the game after getting a 5 and a half year contract. He wins the lottery if he gets the sack

The reason behind this is the fact that most managers aren't sacked because they haven't got the qualities and characteristics of a Premiership manager, it is mostly because of the trigger-happy nature of chairmen. Just because the manager hasn't proved adequate to the inflated goals of the chairman, still doesn't make him a less attractive proposition than a manager of lesser quality from the lower divisions, so they just get punted around. A game of musical chairs if you will.

pickarooney

When you have a better candidate available at short notice. Firing a manager for the sake of firing him with no backup plan is idiotic in my opinion. In the majority of cases they should be allowed see out the season. Realistically good managers don't hang around waiting for jobs to come up. Young managers need to be allowed make mistakes and learn from them and likewise people need to stop hailing a manager as a genius after one good season.

geeky

pickarooney wrote: »

When you have a better candidate available at short notice. Firing a manager for the sake of firing him with no backup plan is idiotic in my opinion.

^ This.

Unless a manager is, by his sheer presence, destroying the team (Cloughie with leeds) rather than being merely ineffectual (Hodgson with Liverpool) it's totally irresponsible to sack someone without another candidate in mind.