Bertie Ahern steps aside

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

More personal irrelevant tripe along the lines of Lenihan being sick. :rolleyes:

Are you somehow suggesting that if his mother hadn't died that Ahern wouldn't have ruined the economy and continued shaking hands with dodgy developers ?

Are you somehow suggesting that he wouldn't have had to appear in front of a tribunal (whose deadline for reporting expired early last year and which STILL isn't done for some inexplicable reason) ?

Maybe if Ahern HAD stepped aside because of the above it would have meant that someone competent and with their eye on the good of the country instead of their own pockets and fictional legacy might have taken over.

I warned ye to watch out for the late posters. I hope ye understand now.
Bertie and others saved lives.

galwayrush

Wide Road wrote: »

I warned ye to watch out for the late posters. I hope ye understand now.
Bertie and others saved lives.

Anyone else in Bertie's position at the time would have done the same thing.He sometimes did the job he was overpaid to do.

Wide Road

galwayrush wrote: »

Anyone else in Bertie's position at the time would have done the same thing.He sometimes did the job he was overpaid to do.

Simple question, one answer. Did John Bruton save or put himself in a position to save lives?

Liam Byrne

Yesterday : 23:28 & later :

[IRONY]I warned ye to watch out for the late posters. I hope ye understand now.[/IRONY]



Great to finish an FF-inspired disaster of 2010 on a decent belly-laugh!

FloatingVoter

Seriously, if by "saving lives" anyone means NI, yes - he played a part...a part in a play started by Albert Reynolds and John Major along with Hume, Adams, Robinson, Paisley et al.

The saving of lives is a bit dramatic...I too can sign my name on documents agreed upon by other people. Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair turned up late at the peace process and did a good job of continuing the work of others.

As for Ahern's credentials to be in elected office - he was a chancer. So were many before him. He was also a failure and a no trick pony who belongs in the small print of the past tense. May this country be rid of his kind forever and that will only happen through people ceasing to believe in empty promises.

Het-Field

A man who's legacy will be a case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Bertie's early legacy gave him an opportunity to become one of Ireland's great leaders. He managed to rejuvinate a demoralised and defeated Fianna Fail party. He lead them back into government, and recieved a fantastic gift from the Rainbow Coalition of a fully functioning economy, positive developments in the North, and a booming investment sector. Between 1997-2002 he managed to sign off on the Good Friday Agreement, lead the charge to strike any reference to the Death Penalty from our foundation documents, and ensured the passage of the Treaty of Amsterdam. During that time he managed a booming economy, sustainably based on foreign direct investment, and a robust export market. Employment soared, and the nation was capable of weathering the dotcom bubble burst in 2001. He also managed to maintain decent relations with a difficult partner in govermnment (the 1997-2002 Progressive Democrats). His victory in the 2002 election was unsuprising, and deserved.

Between 2002-2007 he decided that he would put all his original achievements on the line. He decided that his policies were to be based on what would garner votes, and not what would maintain the Irish nation in a bubble of stability and productivity. These wantonly stupid policies became all the more common when FF were hammered in the 2004 Local and European Elections. To aid and abet these policies BIFFO was promoted to the Finance Ministry, and the binge began. Unlike the McCreevy era where the money spent was sustainable, Bertie and BIFFO began spending the money from the property bubble which they gleefully stoked. Rather then living off the fruits of FDI, they saw Stamp Duty, V.A.T, and Capital Gains tax as a cash cow. Responding to many critics Bertie told us that the boom would get "boomier". He then made his suicide comments. He gladly hung the likes of Grainne Carruth out to dry in March 2008 as his dealings were the subject of the Mahon Tribunal. When Ireland was within months of agreeing the bank guarantee, and were on the cusp of having a vote on the Treaty of Lisbon, Bertie decided to take a lap of honour telling the world how Ireland was a great country, and the paradigm of political success.

The entry of the IMF/EU cannot be seen as soley achieved under the watch of Brian Cowen. Bertie's politics post 2004 were the catalyst. Without his pesudo-socialism we would simply be part of the internation recession, and would not be part of the select few who are now at the mercy of international factors.

Yes, Bertie did achieve. However, Bertie's economic legacy is a disgrace. Ireland is a basket-case economy, owing no small gratitude to the policies pursued by Bertie and his chums. The Good Friday Agreement was the final step in an incremental process, the economic meltdown occurred totally on his watch.

As such, im not sad to hear of his departure.

Fitzerb

Wide Road wrote: »

Simple question, one answer. Did John Bruton save or put himself in a position to save lives?

One of the main reasons the peace process was successful was that Ahern, Blair and Clinton clicked as people. Huaghey , Thatcher Regan would never have clicked.
You need the chemistry to be right. However that in no way takes from the time and effort it took to move the murdering scum of SF away from their position.
If this board is anything to go by we better build big prisons. It seems we have a lot of people standing on very high moral ground from this board. Pity none of them are in the Dail.

I love the balance some people are offering, throw him in prison, shoot him, hang him. Really enlightening ideas here.
Could someone name a politician that they respect or have we become so captivated by a second rate media that we cannot assess a situation and make considered judgements.

Zebra3

How many lives were lost on hospital trolleys as Ahern supported Haughey's evil cutbacks?

How many lives were lost on hospital trolleys as Ahern supported Cowen's evil cutbacks?

oppenheimer1

Het-Field wrote: »

A man who's legacy will be a case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Bertie's early legacy gave him an opportunity to become one of Ireland's great leaders. He managed to rejuvinate a demoralised and defeated Fianna Fail party. He lead them back into government, and recieved a fantastic gift from the Rainbow Coalition of a fully functioning economy, positive developments in the North, and a booming investment sector. Between 1997-2002 he managed to sign off on the Good Friday Agreement, lead the charge to strike any reference to the Death Penalty from our foundation documents, and ensured the passage of the Treaty of Amsterdam. During that time he managed a booming economy, sustainably based on foreign direct investment, and a robust export market. Employment soared, and the nation was capable of weathering the dotcom bubble burst in 2001. He also managed to maintain decent relations with a difficult partner in govermnment (the 1997-2002 Progressive Democrats). His victory in the 2002 election was unsuprising, and deserved.

Between 2002-2007 he decided that he would put all his original achievements on the line. He decided that his policies were to be based on what would garner votes, and not what would maintain the Irish nation in a bubble of stability and productivity. These wantonly stupid policies became all the more common when FF were hammered in the 2004 Local and European Elections. To aid and abet these policies BIFFO was promoted to the Finance Ministry, and the binge began. Unlike the McCreevy era where the money spent was sustainable, Bertie and BIFFO began spending the money from the property bubble which they gleefully stoked. Rather then living off the fruits of FDI, they saw Stamp Duty, V.A.T, and Capital Gains tax as a cash cow. Responding to many critics Bertie told us that the boom would get "boomier". He then made his suicide comments. He gladly hung the likes of Grainne Carruth out to dry in March 2008 as his dealings were the subject of the Mahon Tribunal. When Ireland was within months of agreeing the bank guarantee, and were on the cusp of having a vote on the Treaty of Lisbon, Bertie decided to take a lap of honour telling the world how Ireland was a great country, and the paradigm of political success.

The entry of the IMF/EU cannot be seen as soley achieved under the watch of Brian Cowen. Bertie's politics post 2004 were the catalyst. Without his pesudo-socialism we would simply be part of the internation recession, and would not be part of the select few who are now at the mercy of international factors.

Yes, Bertie did achieve. However, Bertie's economic legacy is a disgrace. Ireland is a basket-case economy, owing no small gratitude to the policies pursued by Bertie and his chums. The Good Friday Agreement was the final step in an incremental process, the economic meltdown occurred totally on his watch.

As such, im not sad to hear of his departure.

A good summary of the good, the bad and the ugly of Bertie Ahern.

Amhran Nua

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whether his work and achievements outweigh the damage his flaws have done to the country remains to be seen.

No, it doesn't remain to be seen. Its being seen in every family that loses its home, every man and woman that loses their job, every cent paid in taxes to bail out the damned banks, every child forced to emigrate and every child to be born who has yet to suffer that indignity.

If you want to see his legacy look around you. The pig and his plagiarising progeny are a blight on the Republic and his successes of convenience are barely a footnote in the litany of villainy he and his even less competent cronies left scrawled on the walls of democracy.

And I'll have no difficulty in saying as much to his face should he ever have the woeful misfortune of encountering me in person.

Lapin

Sully wrote: »

Bertie has confirmed that he is not contesting the next General Election.

Good news at last.

oppenheimer1

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No, it doesn't remain to be seen. Its being seen in every family that loses its home, every man and woman that loses their job, every cent paid in taxes to bail out the damned banks, every child forced to emigrate and every child to be born who has yet to suffer that indignity.

If you want to see his legacy look around you. The pig and his plagiarising progeny are a blight on the Republic and his successes of convenience are barely a footnote in the litany of villainy he and his even less competent cronies left scrawled on the walls of democracy.

And I'll have no difficulty in saying as much to his face should he ever have the woeful misfortune of encountering me in person.

Is his achievement of helping bring an end to the bloody mayhem on the island not a greater good then poor policies which leads to people losing their jobs?

To be honest I'd rather not have a job then living in a country where you risk getting blown up every time you go into a built up area, or walk past a police station. But thats just me.

eigrod

Fitzerb wrote: »

One of the main reasons the peace process was successful was that Ahern, Blair and Clinton clicked as people. Huaghey , Thatcher Regan would never have clicked.

True. However, it is unlikely any FF leader would've been able to click with Thatcher (or any Tory leader at that time), hence it was Garret Fitzgerald that made some very important early progress with the British side. Conversely, any FG leader was unlikely to make any inroads into the Republican movement early on.

Garret Fitzgerald deserves as much credit as Reynolds and Ahern, just for different reasons.

Amhran Nua

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Is his achievement of helping bring an end to the bloody mayhem on the island not a greater good then poor policies which leads to people losing their jobs?

To be honest I'd rather not have a job then living in a country where you risk getting blown up every time you go into a built up area, or walk past a police station. But thats just me.

As many others have pointed out, most of the work was largely done before he made an appearance. So no, its not his achievement and it never was. His actual achievements are the ruination of the country and the people who voted for him and his party, and turning the highest offices of this land into a caricature of themselves. And yet you sit there defending him.

bernardo mac

I hope Bertie reads Boards.If he does I won't say Boo! just Ceaucescu!

raymon

Great news!!

Bertie you will not be missed.
You should get straight down to volunteer for the Simon community to start to repair the damage that you have caused.

aDeener

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No, it doesn't remain to be seen. Its being seen in every family that loses its home, every man and woman that loses their job, every cent paid in taxes to bail out the damned banks, every child forced to emigrate and every child to be born who has yet to suffer that indignity.

If you want to see his legacy look around you. The pig and his plagiarising progeny are a blight on the Republic and his successes of convenience are barely a footnote in the litany of villainy he and his even less competent cronies left scrawled on the walls of democracy.

And I'll have no difficulty in saying as much to his face should he ever have the woeful misfortune of encountering me in person.

and there is no personal responsibility to be taken for any of those? God of course, the easy way out, blame someone else

eigrod

aDeener wrote: »

and there is no personal responsibility to be taken for any of those? God of course, the easy way out, blame someone else

It is perfectly reasonable to blame a government that ruled over 15 years, and in particular it's leader(s) and Minister(s) for Finance of that era for the mess the country finds itself in now and will find itself in for some considerable time to come.

I don't know, but it must be a reasonable guess that 75% of today's population can claim no responsibility for where we are (when you factor in those who never voted FF and those who are aged 20 or less and thus never had a vote).

Shea O'Meara

Wide Road wrote: »

Bertie's mother died during the peace process and he showed his quality and steel by returning during this emotional heartbreak of losing a parent. The amount of lives that were saved cannot be over stated. Thanks Bertie for you and the ****in Peace Process

It's of no matter. If you work in a chip shop and your mother dies you return to work within a day or two. Or are you suggesting when holding the most important office in the country, he could have opted to go missing for a few weeks? Well I guess it being FFail anything is possible.

aDeener

eigrod wrote: »

It is perfectly reasonable to blame a government that ruled over 15 years, and in particular it's leader(s) and Minister(s) for Finance of that era for the mess the country finds itself in now and will find itself in for some considerable time to come.

I don't know, but it must be a reasonable guess that 75% of today's population can claim no responsibility for where we are (when you factor in those who never voted FF and those who are aged 20 or less and thus never had a vote).

hang on, are you seriously suggesting that it is the government's fault for every family home that's been lost and not the idiocy of parents who thought they were big shots and live in houses they couldn't afford?

Amhran Nua

aDeener wrote: »

and there is no personal responsibility to be taken for any of those? God of course, the easy way out, blame someone else

Unfortunately for your argument, people aren't as stupid as Bertie hopes.

bernardo mac

Amhran Nua wrote: »

As many others have pointed out, most of the work was largely done before he made an appearance. So no, its not his achievement and it never was. His actual achievements are the ruination of the country and the people who voted for him and his party, and turning the highest offices of this land into a caricature of themselves. And yet you sit there defending him.

Quite true,the ground work was done,the script written,time and tide right,enter actor Bertie,who basks in the limelight but his self serving nature and policy, his hubris,his and FF's political/economic tunnel vision and corrupt practices eventually lead us to ruin.Exit Bertie with bundles of cash.:D

Amhran Nua

bernardo mac wrote: »

Exit Bertie with bundles of cash.

We shall see.

Liamario

Even in retirement, these cnuts continue to spin the truth in their favour. Every single FF tool pretending they are quitting with dignity, when the reality is, they know they haven't a hope of being re-elected. So rather than standin by their principles, they are taking the cash and legging it. Theses people never cared about this country. They wanted to make a few bob and get the hell out of Dodge!

lucozader

RoundyMooney

hotmail.com wrote: »

I don't think that would have anything to do with his decision. Most taoisigh retire from the Dail once they resign from being Taoiseach. They are financially better off if they have retire and they have more spare time to write newspaper columns, books and give speeches.

As was De Bert. The mark of the man is exemplified by the fact that he could attend Dail Eireann 100 times in 59 days last year.

He didn't even have to retire from the Dail in order to do that. A great man altogether.

RoundyMooney

Fitzerb wrote: »

This was a dreadful comment he made, but one he apologised for.
Do we really want a society where people are afraid of making a mistake that is never forgiven. If we do then nobody will ever take a chance. You cant judge years of work on a mistake and I sure hope mine working life is not remembered for one (of the many) mistakes I have made
Perhaps you have good reason for feeling bitter because of the comments but do you really think he was telling people to go and commit suicide

Why do you post in that ridiculous font?

Anyway, it's worth remembering that when he made that comment, it was met by guffaws and applause. Not throughout, but certainly not with outright initial condemnation.

That's as much an indication of the pandering sycophantic nature of some of our society as anything. Was he not met with applause again in Leinster House recently?

His role in the Peace Process cannot be discounted, though it has often been overstated.

Mind you, the Nazi government built great roads...oops Darwin again.

Liam Byrne

Fitzerb wrote: »

Could someone name a politician that they respect or have we become so captivated by a second rate media that we cannot assess a situation and make considered judgements.

No problem : Shane Ross

A question in return : why are you so mistakenly & arrogantly suggesting that people who have evaluated Ahern's "career" can't and haven't come to their own logical & informed conclusion?

Did "the second rate media" destroy any remnants of Ahern's credibility by falsely giving 5 conflicting accounts of a year's salary?

Or did he do that himself?

Did "the media" hold Ahern at gunpoint and make him swan off to book launches when he should have been doing his job in the Dáil?

Did "the media" force him to tell people who saw through and objected to the fake Celtic Tiger rip-off philosophy that they'd be better off commtting suicide?

I'm afraid that you're shooting the messenger; a common mistake, but when it comes to FF it's not a mistake, it's a tactic used when they're caught with their fingers in the till.

mikemac

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No problem : Shane Ross

He was a councillor for FG in Wicklow for a eight years. Would you know if he has plans to run for the Dáil?

I'd imagine he'd beat Dick Roche. And Joe Behan quit FF to save his skin but it may not be enough.
Wicklow is an interesting constituency, nobody's seat is safe

Liam Byrne

feelingstressed wrote: »

He was a councillor for FG in Wicklow for a 5 year term. Would you know if he has plans to run for the Dáil?

I'd imagine he'd beat Dick Roche. And Joe Behan quit FF to save his skin but it may not be enough.
Wicklow is an interesting constituency, nobody's seat is safe

I have no idea about Ross' plans; I was just replying to the inference that people couldn't list politicians that they admire and would vote for.