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What did Bobby Sands die for?
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Never seen that one,but if it is as inaccurate as the newer one.....
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RandomName2 wrote: »Egypt (except Suez Canal)
Libya
Sudan
Nigeria
India
Covered by myself and others above.Canada
Indian wars, wars against the US an the French.South Africa (notwithstanding Boer War)
Rhodesia (notwithstanding political complications)
Others aboveMalaya
the corrupt British rubber baron colony?Gold Coast
With an emphasis on the "Gold"?
this actually argues against the thesis of "Irish independence anyway" as a sort of West British Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_%28British_colony%29#Early_manifestationsNotwithstanding their call for elected representation as opposed to a system whereby the governor appointed council members, these nationalists insisted that they were loyal to the British Crown and that they merely sought an extension of British political and social practices to Africans. Notable leaders included Africanus Horton, Jr.; J.M. Sarbah; and S.R.B. Attah-Ahoma. Such men gave the nationalist movement a distinctly elitist flavor that was to last until the late 1940s.
the source continuesChange that would place real power in African hands was not a priority among British leaders until after rioting and looting in Accra
No violence? No British hand in the problems?British Honduras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Honduras#The_colonial_order.2C_1871.E2.80.931931...the increasing consolidation of capital and the intensification of British landownership. The British Honduras Company emerged as the predominant landowner of the crown colony. ...1875 the firm became the Belize Estate and Produce Company, a London-based business that owned about half of all the privately held land in the colony. The new company was the chief force in British Honduras's political economy for over a century.
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worst hurricane in the country's recent history demolished Belize Town on 10 September 1931, killing more than 1,000 people and destroying at least three-quarters of the housing. The British relief response was tardy and inadequate. The British government seized the opportunity to impose tighter control on the colony and endowed the governor with reserve powers, or the power to enact laws in emergency situations without the consent of the Legislative Council.
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Since 1875 various members of the Hoare family had been principal directors and maintained a controlling interest in the company. Sir Samuel Hoare, a shareholder and former director, was a former British cabinet member and a friend of Leo Amery, the British secretary of state for the colonies
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orkers and their families suffered from malnutrition and were continually in debt to their employers. The law governing labour contracts, the Masters and Servants Act of 1883, made it a criminal offence for a laborer to breach a contract. The offence was punishable by twenty-eight days of imprisonment with hard labour.
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Riots, strikes, and rebellions had occurred before, during and after the period of slavery, but the events of the 1930s were modern labour disturbances in the sense that they gave rise to organisations with articulate industrial and political goals.
Sound familiar?Guyana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Guiana#Eastern_boundary_with_Suriname
In 1938 the West India Royal Commission ("The Moyne Commission") was appointed to investigate the economic and social condition of all the British colonies in the Caribbean region after a number of civil and labour disturbances.
[/quote]
Probably an even better example of British slave labour plantation politics.Malta
Gozo
Same place. Sound familiar???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Malta#Attempted_integration_with_the_United_Kingdom...the islands being placed under direct rule from London, with the MLP abandoning support for integration and now advocating independence.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »You missed out Jamaica, Belize, Trinidad, Tobago, etc etc.
So would these be countries that unlike Ireland were given the opportunity to decide for themselves if they wanted independence?0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »So would these be countries that unlike Ireland were given the opportunity to decide for themselves if they wanted independence?
Or you could keep splitting them into smaller units? Maybe that is where the stickies got he "dilute and overthrow" idea?0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »So would these be countries that unlike Ireland were given the opportunity to decide for themselves if they wanted independence?
I can't think of any Caribbean state that had a rebellion as such and power was transferred over a period of time.
I'm sure someone will drag something up though. Sure, doesn't the withdrawal from Aden justify bombing Guildford.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »I can't think of any Caribbean state that had a rebellion as such and power was transferred over a period of time.
I'm sure someone will drag something up though. Sure, doesn't the withdrawal from Aden justify bombing Guildford.
What do you mean by that comment?
Are you referring to me?-
Antigua 1735 Conspiracy involving blacks and mulattoes around the island.
1831 Thousands of slaves rose up, committing arson and rioting.
Bahamas (Exuma) 1830 Several slaves rose up.
Bahamas (Exuma, Eleuthera, Cat Island) 1832-1834 Widespread rebellion where hundreds of slaves rose up together.
Barbados 1816 Bussa's rebellion took place, involving thousands of slaves.
Cuba 1805 Slave rebellion recorded.
1809 Hundreds rose up in many provinces and in Havana.
1825 Hundreds of slaves rose up in Matanzas.
1826 Several slaves rebelled in Guira.
1830-1831 Several coffee estate slaves rebelled.
1833 A few sugar estate slaves revolted.
Curaçao 1795 Slaves led by Tula and Carpata rose up by the thousands.
Dominica 1785-1790 Dominica's First Maroon War took place.
1791 A rebellion on New Year's Day in which hundreds of windward slaves rebelled.
1795 The Colihaut uprising involved hundreds of slaves.
1802 Hundreds are involved in the mutiny of the Eighth West Indian Regiment.
1809-1814 Thousands take part in Dominica's Second Maroon War.
Grenada 1765 Maroons encourage and participate in a revolt of hundreds.
1795 Fedon's Rebellion, involving both freed men and slaves, takes thousands.
Guadeloupe 1737 Hundreds are involved in the Revolt of Latulipe.
1789 The French Revolution causes an uprising of thousands.
Hispaniola (French) 1752-1758 Mackandal unites the Maroons, and hundreds fight.
1791 Thousands rebel during the French Revolution.
Jamaica 1742 Dozens of Coromantees in St. Ann's Parish conspire to revolt.
1745 Hundreds of Africans plan a revolt in St. David's.
1760 Tacky's Rebellion.
1765 Coromantees in St. Mary's rebel.
1766 Westmorland slaves revolt.
1776 Africans and Creoles in Hanover Parish plan a large rebellion.
1791 Many rebellions in the year following the Haitian revolt.
1795 Jamaica's Second Maroon War.
1806 Several slaves in St. George's Parish caught planning a rebellion.
1808 Mutiny of the Second West Indian Regiment.
1815 Under Ibos, hundreds of slaves rebel.
1822-1824 Unrest in Hanover is widespread, and hundreds rebel.
1831-1832 The "Baptist War" takes place on Christmas when thousands rise up.
Marie Galante (Guadeloupe) 1789 During the French Revolution, many rise up.
Martinique 1752 Rebellion.
1789-1792 Thousands rebelled during the French Revolution.
1822 Rebellion.
1833 Rebellion.
Montserrat 1768 Many planned a rebellion.
1776 Rebellion.
Nevis 1776 Rebellion.
St. Kitts 1778 Some planned to rebel on the island.
St. Lucia 1795 Brigands War.
St. Vincent 1769-1773 The Black Carib (mixed escaped slaves and Caribs) fought the First Carib war.
Tobago 1770 Revolt in Courland Bay.
1771 Rebellion in Bloody Bay.
1774 Queen's Bay rebellion.
1801 Creoles planned a Christmas rebellion.
1807 Hundreds of slaves marched on the Government House.
Tortola (British Virgin Islands) 1790 Hundreds revolt on Pickering's estates.
1823 Hundreds revolt on Pickering's estates again.
1830 Hundreds of Lettsome slaves revolt.
1831 A plot involves slaves across the whole island.
Trinidad 1805 Hundreds of French slaves plot a revolt.
Throughout history, Jamaica was home to more slave rebellions than all of the other British islands combined.
Source: http://caribbean-guide.info/past.and.present/history/slave.rebellion/0 -
So? You've quoted slave rebellions over the past 300 years (including the Montserrat one interestingly enough). You've also quoted islands that weren't even British.
None of those countries gained their eventual independence through violent means though.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: ».......
None of those countries gained their eventual independence through violent means though.
So we should give out congratulations for successfully subduing the populace then...?0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »No, but people should maybe get their facts straight.
maybe you should stop denying your countrys /armys murderous history and start from there0 -
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Indian wars, wars against the US and the French.
Well, Timur Leng also invaded India in 1398. The relevance? None.the corrupt British rubber baron colony?
Okay, so you agree that you questioning whether or not independence from the British Empire was a mostly pacific affair was pretty nonsensical.
The rest of your post comments on mismanagement of the colonies by the British. Duh! Why do you think they wanted independence? (As is par for the course with all empires, colonised regions are treated primarily from the point of view of how they will benefit the coloniser rather than the colonised. Pointing this out is both tangential to anything of any relevance and completely obvious, of course. The fact that the colonised nations can coincidentally significantly benefit from this process in also entirely besides the point.
If the main thesis of your argument that only bloody revolution is the only means to self determination you have provided neither any evidence of the sort or any logical basis to support yourself.
However, I will point you on the right track. Perhaps self-determination of all the colonised nations of the world (of France, Britain, Germany and Dutch) would not have been as simple if said countries had not experienced WWII.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »So? You've quoted slave rebellions over the past 300 years (including the Montserrat one interestingly enough). You've also quoted islands that weren't even British.
Yes, and you will note the point I made was in relation to a point about the Carribean and nt only in relation to British colonies. You may also note I pointed earlier to French and other Imperialism as being similar to British.None of those countries gained their eventual independence through violent means though.
LOL! Ireland has several revolts every 50 years for four centuries. afterh that thyey have a vote to become independent. Your claim is that the violence never happened or is it the violence had nothing to do with them not being independent and under British Imperial rule?0 -
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LOL! Ireland has several revolts every 50 years for four centuries. after that thyey have a vote to become independent. Your claim is that the violence never happened or is it the violence had nothing to do with them not being independent and under British Imperial rule?
Your judgement about what constitutes violence is kind-of odd. A revolt where nobody dies is not worth mentioning really.
Before 1916 the only really significant incident was in 1798. Sure, the Young Irelanders did some mucking about, but that's not even worth talking about except in the sense of how Ireland was practically the ONLY country not to engage in the 1848 rebellions.
So 110 years between violent outbursts? That would constitute quite peaceful, no?
But Ireland bucks the trend. It was one of the few countries which decided to abandon the diplomatic, political process, and instead engage in warfare. The fact that it was so totally unnecessary was highlighted by the granting of Home Rule to Northern Ireland (it was also granted to southern Ireland, but rejected as insufficient) and also by the ease with which Ireland moved out of the Commonwealth. The USA is really the only other example of this sort - but, unlike the Irish, the United States had NO REPRESENTATION. That was of course, their central complaint.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »Well, Timur Leng also invaded India in 1398. The relevance? None.
Tamerlane has not relaqtion to British in Canada.
Indian wars, wars against the US and the French were not by Tamerlane but by the British. Sorry if you didn't understand that comment.Okay, so you agree that you questioning whether or not independence from the British Empire was a mostly pacific affair was pretty nonsensical.
No It was also an AtlaNTIC aFFAIR
British rule was maintained by the military i.e violence.
Just as in Iraq.
British Redcoats committed genocide in Australia.The rest of your post comments on mismanagement of the colonies by the British. Duh!
And "duh!" means???Why do you think they wanted independence? (As is par for the course with all empires, colonised regions are treated primarily from the point of view of how they will benefit the coloniser rather than the colonised. Pointing this out is both tangential to anything of any relevance and completely obvious, of course.
actually it isnt! Since you claim Imperialists are on the take all the time and colonies are always giving and the Imperialists maintain this by using their military...just how do you think the Imperialists will be made to stop taking all the time?The fact that the colonised nations can coincidentally significantly benefit from this process in also entirely besides the point.
Oh Please. Dont give me "What did the Romans ever do for us anyway" rhetoric! the Paddies and wogs don't depend on crumbs for the Rich mans table. Yes we wil take a LOAN from the UK but it isnt a gift you know! How magnanimous England giving Ireland a loan when they took a load! What did you bring to the Carribean? Oh yeah , Slavery Piracy, syphilis, rum sodomy and the lash. Oh yeah on the positive side - Cricke.tIf the main thesis of your argument that only bloody revolution is the only means to self determination you have provided neither any evidence of the sort or any logical basis to support yourself.
Mine is the counter argument bub! Don't try to shift the burden the claim was made by others about moist of the British Empire being at peace with the world as if some great democratic cultural lesson was brought to them by Empire and not death and rape.However, I will point you on the right track. Perhaps self-determination of all the colonised nations of the world (of France, Britain, Germany and Dutch) would not have been as simple if said countries had not experienced WWII.
Yu don't need to point me anywhere. Irish nationalists died in their tens of thousands years before that in fighting in WWI for the rights of small nations! Germany had no really significant colonies in WWII it was almost all heartland! And "what ifs" about Imperialist countries ( literally the exact same alliances) who fought WWI and WWII for to stop Imperial expansion and the other side to expand (except it was done by the same side for the opposite reason each time ) are not addressing the issue of "most Ex Colonies didn't suffer violence"0 -
"British Redcoats committed genocide in Australia".
You really need to stop getting your history from an phoblacht0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »Your judgement about what constitutes violence is kind-of odd. A revolt where nobody dies is not worth mentioning really.
1601 1641 1690 1798, 1803, 1848 to name a few. all involved people dying.Before 1916 the only really significant incident was in 1798. Sure, the Young Irelanders did some mucking about, but that's not even worth talking about except in the sense of how Ireland was practically the ONLY country not to engage in the 1848 rebellions.
Ill take just one counter example to disprove that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1641The Irish rebellion broke out in October 1641 and was followed by several months of violent chaos before the Irish Catholic upper classes and clergy formed the Catholic Confederation in the summer of 1642. The Confederation became a de facto government of most of Ireland, free from the control of the English administration and loosely aligned with the Royalist side in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. The subsequent war continued in Ireland until the 1650s, when Oliver Cromwell's New Model Army decisively defeated the Irish Catholics and Royalists, and re-conquered the country.So 110 years between violent outbursts? That would constitute quite peaceful, no?
Hard to raise an army in the 1700 when poverty and famine abound!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland_%281691%E2%80%931801%29In the 1740s, these economic inequalities, when combined with an exceptionally cold winter and poor harvest, led directly to the famine of 1740-1741, which killed about 400,000 people. In the 1780s, due to increased competition from salted-meat exporters in the Baltic and North America, the Anglo-Irish landowners rapidly switched to growing grain for export, while the Irish themselves ate potatoes and groats.
Peasant secret societies became common in 18th century Ireland as the only means of tenant farmers to redress grievances against their landlordsBut Ireland bucks the trend. It was one of the few countries which decided to abandon the diplomatic, political process, and instead engage in warfare.
complete ****e! Utter nonsense. The history of rape and take is clear to see but you appear to be blind! From Poynings law to the 1920s Colonial squireen rule was firmly imposed at the barrel of a gun!
the longest period lacking widespread revolution was marked by famine and secret societies planning to overthrow the English.The fact that it was so totally unnecessary was highlighted by the granting of Home Rule to Northern Ireland (it was also granted to southern Ireland, but rejected as insufficient)
Quiote the opposite. The N Ireland Parliament proves the gerrymander and empty promise of fair play. Why should they Iriah have to wait from 1920 to 2005 in order for Catholics to get fair play at elections? Your "solution" is ponderous and took over a century and was couples with armed struggle anyway.and also by the ease with which Ireland moved out of the Commonwealth.
announced by a Minister after a few drinks in Canada.The USA is really the only other example of this sort - but, unlike the Irish, the United States had NO REPRESENTATION. That was of course, their central complaint.
The US nearly lost the colonial war! By chance the British monarch went mad! But the US did lose many a soldier. At they time their politicians fought wars. Nowadays they are back to the old British idea of getting the poor to fight the war for them.0 -
This thread no longer has sufficient relation to its original discussion. Nowhere near sufficient relation to its original discussion.0
This discussion has been closed.
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