guy selling dog please read content

Graces7

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Graces7 you have replied to me in past threads also with the most random, seemingly degrading, insulting comments that make no apparant sence to me. I find it quite confusing, you have told me that by my desire to satisfy my own pets energy levels and break her boredom I was talking nonsence and humanising her, that dogs have no need of such rubbish as agility training, mental stimulation, toys or motivational training (eg reward based).

Working dogs have owners/handlers and generally a much better relationship with their human that the average pet, I spend quite a lot of time exercising working dogs so I should know! Can you please clarify with some reasons for your comments on my opinions in this and future threads rather than this: you are wrong and have no idea what your taking about attitude and then fail to answer again when I address these comments, thanks!

Post reported.

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Also if the person who posted these adverts is being used as an 'example' a lot of people here are running dangerously close to making false allegations on a person they know nothing about in relation to their dogs which they have no idea whatsoever of the conditions they are kept in.

I disagree. The whole point, in the way that the thread has broadened out, is to not isolate one example. Anyone is perfectly entitled to read what they like into an advert - we do it all the time.

Surely we are allowed to discuss the issue of welfare in working dogs & whether there should be exceptions to the law in their case.

Mr. Manager

How is thread still open?! Seriously.

No conclusion is going to be reached. You may aswell argue your points on the Adrian Kennedy phone show...

Discodog

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

How is thread still open?! Seriously.

No conclusion is going to be reached. You may aswell argue your points on the Adrian Kennedy phone show...

There is no reason why we can't have a reasoned discussion. Threads don't have to have conclusions - they rarely do here !.

It just seems to be a reoccurring problem that people cannot accept that there are differing views on animal welfare. It's possibly why we have never had any proper welfare law.

angry_fox

has anoyone contacted the seller of dog because he would get a giggle off some of the posters here

Are people getting upset because he used the word "overstocking".

It is a working a dog not a pet, it is bred to hunt. Simple as

Discodog

angry_fox wrote: »

has anoyone contacted the seller of dog because he would get a giggle off some of the posters here

Are people getting upset because he used the word "overstocking".

It is a working a dog not a pet, it is bred to hunt. Simple as

So does that mean that it is not entitled to the same basic needs as other dogs ?. Should we have different standards of care depending on whether the dog is a pet or a working dog ?.

scudzilla

Discodog

scudzilla wrote: »

Gosh you really are the master of informative & helpful posting. We spent 23 pages worth of discussion here only for it to fall on some deaf ears.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056050934

angry_fox

Discodog wrote: »

So does that mean that it is not entitled to the same basic needs as other dogs ?. Should we have different standards of care depending on whether the dog is a pet or a working dog ?.

A jesus, did i mention anything about that.

working dogs a very well looked after and they are given much better care. This is because they have to be, they do so much work when they are out there Have you ever been out hunting Discodog? Have you ever owned a cocker spaniel bred for hunting?

Nozebleed

Discodog wrote: »

So does that mean that it is not entitled to the same basic needs as other dogs ?. Should we have different standards of care depending on whether the dog is a pet or a working dog ?.

what are the basic needs of a dog? in fact what is the purpose of having a dog? if you are not going to hunt or work the dog?

vibe666

Discodog wrote: »

If you look back you will see that word like hunting dog, working dog, stud dog were used before I posted.

yes, in relation to the original argument, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

if you have other issues relating to hunting dogs, or working dogs in general then feel free to start your own thread on it rather than taking this one off topic.

Discodog wrote: »

When we had all the grief with forum we discussed the situation. I thought that we pretty much agreed that we would treat every poster with respect & not ridicule.

you are making the assumption that everyone who reads/posts in this forum knows all about that. i'm not a hugely regular poster here and i've no idea what thread you are talking about. i imagine i'm not alone in that either. is that thread in a sticky post or the gist of it in the forum rules sticky?

Discodog wrote: »

If you don't agree with someone then at least offer up reasonable argument.

i have done, repeatedly, but people seem happy to accept that the adverts in the posts on the first page show some kind of mistreatment or cruelty towards dogs when they have absolutely no evidence to support it other than a single word which by all accounts seems to be quite a common word in hunting circles to describe someone who has too many dogs. :rolleyes:

Discodog wrote: »

Last night I was PM'd by a Mod. Both of us were of the view that this forum was doing much better. One of the main reasons for this is mutual respect which means that you don't attack someone because they disagree.

afaik, the only relevant rules regarding conduct are to avoid defamatory or potentially libellous comments without any evidence (something which some poster seem very close to doing regarding the donedeal.ie advertisers) and the general site rule of "attack the post, not the poster" if you disagree with what someone has posted and i'm pretty sure that has been abided by so far.

Discodog wrote: »

I also think that, apart from highlighting a few words, we should leave the bold type to the Mods. As per the agreement that we made last year we can use the feedback thread rather than derailing here.

well that would be something that would have to be a mod decision to include in the forum rules, but if you're so keen on not derailing threads why do you insist on keeping derailing this thread from its purpose of discussing the "overstocking" dog adverts on donedeal.ie?

Whispered

Coming from a background of "working" dogs, seeing how easily they are disposed of by some people when they no longer do what they are "supposed" to do, I think it's a good thing this man is trying to find a home. All too often unwanted pets and working dogs are dumped, strayed, tied up with bricks and left on a frozen lake to die (oh yes that was a recent one).

People getting fed up of their animals and getting rid of them is a big problem, BUT If more owners tried to home their dogs themselves, perhaps the rescues wouldn't be in such a state?

Personally I find the use of the word overstocking to be callous and in poor taste, but then I find people getting rid of their animals except in extreme circumstances in poor taste anyway. this person did not "find himself" in any situation as was suggested, he simply got too many animals and knew what he was doing. However, at least he is trying to do right by the dog now.

Lets not forget that other working dogs are also retired and often rehomed when they reach a certain age such as guide dogs/police dogs etc.

EDIT: In saying that I think the argument above of "why have a dog if you're not hunting it" is silly. I firmly believe working dogs have a very fulfilled life when their other needs are met, but just because you don't hunt your dog does not mean he can't have an equally fulfilled life.

vibe666

@Whispered, as you are someone with some experience of working dogs, do you think that this guy would be able to sell these two dogs (on the ad's on the first page of the thread) for €600 & €300 if they weren't well cared for & well trained specialised hunting animals?

i'm not an expert by any means, but it seems to me that the only way he is going to get anything close to that kind of money for them is if they have been well looked after.

sorry to single you out but you seem to have some experience in that area and i figured you'd have some idea.

also, i know you said don't like the use of that particular word in the adverts, but isn't it possible that he's just using a common colloquial term to describe the position he is in where he just has too many dogs due to a good breeding season?

Discodog

Nozebleed wrote: »

what are the basic needs of a dog? in fact what is the purpose of having a dog? if you are not going to hunt or work the dog?

Vets refer to dogs as companion animals because they derive benefit from human companionship & we get benefit from being with them.

Whispered

Nah I have no experience with dogs being bought and sold. So I couldn't tell you about prices. My experience stems just from being the daughter of a hunter. But I would be of the opinion that if he needs to get rid of a dog, and hopes to get that much, he either has 2 highly trained dogs, or is hoping to get a gullible buyer . Highly trained does not equate to well cared for though so I can't comment on that either way.

He could indeed be using the term due to a good breeding season, but then I'd have problems with someone breeding excessively too. I understand people breeding from good dogs to create good dogs, but breeding to the point of "overstocking" is not responsible breeding. Of course we don't know why he is overstocked, it may be due to him acquiring a dog he's had his eye on for a while and needing to create space. Or he's scaling down his kennels due to age or ill health etc. (my own dad went from 18 dogs at one stage to one now) I still personally find it distasteful, but still better than straying the dogs. Although if he can get almost a grand for the two he's not likely to stray them.

My opinion in a sentence - he didn't over stock accidently, I don't agree with getting rid of a dog when it becomes surplus to needs, but at least he's trying to get a home for the dog.

vibe666 wrote: »

@Whispered, as you are someone with some experience of working dogs, do you think that this guy would be able to sell these two dogs (on the ad's on the first page of the thread) for €600 & €300 if they weren't well cared for & well trained specialised hunting animals?

i'm not an expert by any means, but it seems to me that the only way he is going to get anything close to that kind of money for them is if they have been well looked after.

sorry to single you out but you seem to have some experience in that area and i figured you'd have some idea.

also, i know you said don't like the use of that particular word in the adverts, but isn't it possible that he's just using a common colloquial term to describe the position he is in where he just has too many dogs due to a good breeding season?

Discodog

vibe666 wrote: »

yes, in relation to the original argument, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

if you have other issues relating to hunting dogs, or working dogs in general then feel free to start your own thread on it rather than taking this one off topic.

i've no idea what thread you are talking about. i imagine i'm not alone in that either. is that thread in a sticky post or the gist of it in the forum rules sticky?

I appreciate your kindness in inviting me to start another thread but this one is doing just fine. You have been around long enough to know that threads rarely stick to the exact wording of the OP. If I were to post complaining of a chip shop in Galway people would comment on other chip shops & even chip shops in general. Why do you show such zeal in trying to keep this thread specific to the advert ?. By complaining about me are you not also taking it off topic.

The How's our Driving feedback thread is now near the top of the page. I think that it was going to be stickied but things improved so much that it may of been thought unnecessary. It still should be unless people start throwing insults. The Mods have made it very clear that the language & comments that are accepted on some Boards will not be accepted here.

Now back on topic & I actually agree with you in some respects :eek:. My interpretation of the advert is that he/she is a gundog breeder/trainer who has too much stock. The dogs look in good condition. The word "Overstocked" may grate to some but to a professional breeder dogs are stock & they exist to turn a profit. They can be bought, sold & disposed of as he/she sees fit. That is the law of the land.

Cherry Blossom

Graces7 wrote: »

Post reported.

Thanks! I am now much better equipped to understand your points of view and take them into account when making decisions on how I train my dog in future, I sure this will help me make a much more informed decision.

scudzilla

Graces7 wrote: »

Post reported.

Is there any actual need to post that you have reported a post?

The only thing that it could do is to antagonise the poster of the reported post.

I'd just report the post and leave it to the mod's, no need to rub anybody's noses in it.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

I disagree. The whole point, in the way that the thread has broadened out, is to not isolate one example. Anyone is perfectly entitled to read what they like into an advert - we do it all the time.

Surely we are allowed to discuss the issue of welfare in working dogs & whether there should be exceptions to the law in their case.

I see nothing wrong with people voicing their opinions and beliefs whatever they may be, I often take the same stance as your good self on many issues and not on some, the world would be a pretty boring place if everyone had the same thought process. I am always open to the opinions of others and they are entitled to them, if I were not my own wouldn't hold much value

As for the second part of your post above, no I don't think there should be exceptions made in the law for working dogs. Like all other keepers of animals there are the good and the bad across the whole spectrum and sometimes it annoys me that people are labelled guilty until proven innocent, I'm sure there are a mass of done deal ads that would suit much better as an example in situation being discussed here but no-one has posted any of these in strength of 'anti' side of this debate.

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

Is there any actual need to post that you have reported a post?

The only thing that it could do is to antagonise the poster of the reported post.

I'd just report the post and leave it to the mod's, no need to rub anybody's noses in it.

I'm not the least bit antagonised , I would have at least as much reason to report the post I was replying too but don't feel the need to as I think it says more about the reporter than it does me.

This is the first post of mine that has been reported to my knowledge, I feel quite special to have made such an impact

EGAR

Hunting dog vs pet - that is not mutually exclusive.

Many people keep hunting dogs and they have also pet status.i.e. live in the house etc pp.

However, I know many examples around here where the working dog is kept on a chain or in a shed and only gets let out to *work* which is not acceptable IMHO.

From the rescue point of view: at the end of the hunting season so called hunting dogs get dumped every year as the "owner" is not willing to feed the dog etc for the summer months. They prefer to get a new dog for the next hunting season which never made any sense to me.

vibe666

Discodog wrote: »

I appreciate your kindness in inviting me to start another thread but this one is doing just fine. You have been around long enough to know that threads rarely stick to the exact wording of the OP.

we'll just have to agree to disagree on that there's a difference between temoporarily wandering a bit OT and going way OT and staying there, but i think i've more than made made my point already so i'm going to bow out since i'm of the view that the thread has gone way too far OT and nobody seems interested in getting it back on track.

Cherry Blossom

Nozebleed wrote: »

what are the basic needs of a dog? in fact what is the purpose of having a dog? if you are not going to hunt or work the dog?

I'll have a go at this one The basic needs of a dog are to have its instincts met in such a manner that it can live a happy full-filled life as a well-balanced animal. This means adequate food, shelter, socialisation and companionship and providing guidance and training so it is happy and secure. In the case of a dog bred to be a lap dog lots of extra affection. In the case of dogs bred with high energy levels adequate exercise to dispell this energy and in the case of dogs bred with a specific job in mind it either needs to do this job or be engaged in a suitable activity in order to fulfill the instincts that have been bred into by man-kind; this may be agility, tracking games, retrieving games etc. whatever is suitable for the particular dog. If I know of 1 'pet' home that provides the later, I know of 20 more that can't or won't fulfil this requirement. e.g. there is no possible way a collie or cocker spaniel could be happy and fulfilled confined to a house and treated as a lapdog but hundreds of them are.

Of course this is just my opinion and I'm sure I'll get plenty of opposition or people reporting this post because they don't agree :rolleyes:

EGAR

OT? Perhaps but I have to post about the hunting dog/breed. I am owned by 4 of them. Two Otterhounds, a Cocker and a Bassett Hound. None of them are *working*, none of them have behavioural problems because they are pets. Not every Collie herds, not every Cocker hunts and not every GSD guards.

Whispered

Some of the happiest dogs I know are working dogs. I would also be careful about rehoming working dogs to working homes, or at the very least, active homes. When I was a child we moved from the countryside to dublin for 3 years. My dad brought his terrier. The dog starved itself until it was very very ill. My parents actually thought it had cancer. My dad sent the dog back down to his brother in the country, thinking it would be kinder to allow him live out his days in the countryside. Within a week the dog was in top form again and lived until he was a rip old age.

I know many homes who treat their working dogs really well, I know many more who see the animal as a commodity who can be discarded on a whim. I would like to say otherwise, but in my experience that is often the case. On both sides of the coin it depends on the owner, and unfortunately there is no lack of irresponsible owners, be they working or pet dogs. (cats/horses/ any other type of animal)

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Of course this is just my opinion and I'm sure I'll get plenty of opposition or people reporting this post because they don't agree :rolleyes:

:eek: noooooo! Don't get dragged in.

Nozebleed

EGAR wrote: »

Hunting dog vs pet - that is not mutually exclusive.

Many people keep hunting dogs and they have also pet status.i.e. live in the house etc pp.

However, I know many examples around here where the working dog is kept on a chain or in a shed and only gets let out to *work* which is not acceptable IMHO.

From the rescue point of view: at the end of the hunting season so called hunting dogs get dumped every year as the "owner" is not willing to feed the dog etc for the summer months. They prefer to get a new dog for the next hunting season which never made any sense to me.

I have seen more so called house dogs/domestic pets being mistreated than i ever have a working dog. there are thousands of dogs in the suburbs that never get walked,live in tiny gardens surrounded by their own feces. I know a woman who has a lab who has never been outside because it goes mental on a lead she says...she refers to it as a house dog..its these people who are the problem not you farmer or hunting enthusiast. Do you think these domestic pets are better off than a your typical working dog?

Cherry Blossom

EGAR wrote: »

OT? Perhaps but I have to post about the hunting dog/breed. I am owned by 4 of them. Two Otterhounds, a Cocker and a Bassett Hound. None of them are *working*, none of them have behavioural problems because they are pets. Not every Collie herds, not every Cocker hunts and not every GSD guards.

Perhaps not but some (individual dogs, not breeds per say) are selected specifically as 'working dogs' because these instincts are particularly hightened. I'm quite sure that your individual dogs needs are met in other ways even though they are not 'worked'. My frame of mind on the subject is, for example if I were to acquire a huskey I wouldn't be running off to iceland so it can be a sledge dog but I would most definately try scootering or cycling with it. But perhaps this my horsey background comming into the equation where inadequete exercise and inappropriate work can have ill-effects on the health of the animal.

I'm also aware that the needs of an animal can and do change with age etc. and this is no reason to 'throw them away'. For example a youngish pony that competes should absoutely be moved on when it's young rider outgrows it as both still have plenty of potential to continue and progress, an older pony that is slowing down should have a change of job or be retired. My own philosophy is that I adapt myself, the activities and speed of progression to the needs of the specific animal rather than 'replacing' the animal but I don't expect those of a more competitive nature to do the same. Appologies for the OT horsey post but I found it easier to get this point across in a horse analagy. I guess my idea's in this area have transferred to working dogs.

EGAR

Nozebleed wrote: »

I have seen more so called house dogs/domestic pets being mistreated than i ever have a working dog.

Which rescue do you run?

Whispered

Nozebleed wrote: »

I have seen more so called house dogs/domestic pets being mistreated than i ever have a working dog. there are thousands of dogs in the suburbs that never get walked,live in tiny gardens surrounded by their own feces. I know a woman who has a lab who has never been outside because it goes mental on a lead she says...she refers to it as a house dog..its these people who are the problem not you farmer or hunting enthusiast. Do you think these domestic pets are better off than a your typical working dog?

Personally, I have seen more working dogs mistreated than house dogs. Really that argument will not go far as there are good and bad on both sides and it depends on the owner in each case, not the dogs "purpose".

(ie if someone will mistreat a dog, they will mistreat it, no matter the reason for keeping it)

I'm not disagreeing with you in saying that pets can be mistreated too, but you can't really make one "side" appear better by using examples of bad ownership from the other side. If that makes sense.

Nozebleed

EGAR wrote: »

Which rescue do you run?

door to door salesman.