Spontaneous human combustion?

feicim

I read this story today and some of the details sounded a bit unusual...

Gardai carried out a technical examination of the scene to determine the cause of the blaze, which did little damage to the surrounding furniture.
State Pathologist Professor Marie Cassidy travelled to the scene last night to carry out an examination of the badly burned remains.

source: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-probe-death-of-woman-in-blaze-2480287.html

foxshooter243

feicim wrote: »

I read this story today and some of the details sounded a bit unusual...





source: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-probe-death-of-woman-in-blaze-2480287.html

Local gossip has it that it was a case of SHC ..

Pebbles68

Saw a very good documentry about SHC and the conclusion was that it doesn't exist. It is caused by "the wick effect" and it very much depends on what the person is wearing. A small spark or match can cause an item of clothing to flare up. Then if the person doesn't get the flames out the clothes actually act as a wick by absorbing the body fat as it melts. As there is a continuous supply of body fat melting and reburning the body burns at an incredibly high temperature but the heat is trapped internally, inside the wick. Not a conversation you'd be having over dinner!

Star Lord

They do think also though that it has on occasion been caused by "ball lightening", which is apparently incredibly rare.

Ditch

I wish I'd never looked in here now! I spent enough years living under a pretty constant fear of being a victim of SHC. Probably read too many books about it? Got sort of hung up on it.

I too have read the stuff about wrapping a pig in a quilt and all that. BS, if ye ask me. I mean; OK, sure it works and gives a fair imitation of 'SHC'. But, it can't account for so many cases where the victim simply wasn't wrapped up like a maggot.

There was a case of a young woman bursting into flames at a dance. Plenty of people around to see what happened there.

How about the (probably very well known) case of the old guy who went for a pee one night? Dressed in his dressing gown. Went up in smoke and all they found were the bottoms of his legs, still with his slippers on. Rest of him burned through the floor boards.

Now; How can a dressing gown be compared to a load of blankets, as was used in the pig experiment?

Oh yes, and what about that Dr / Prof. who was just putting his key in his door when he saw a jet of blue flame coming out of his thigh?

Being of a scientific bent, he logically deduced that depriving fire of oxygen is the way to put it out (Full marks for clarity of thought under the circumstances!) So, he smothered it with his hand or a paper ~ can't remember now ~ and put it out.

Wrap roast as many pigs as ye like. That simply can't cover half the recorded incidents out there. I read a whole book about it. Scared the pants off me! :eek:

Namle

Having read about the wick effect I tried my own experiment, on a much smaller scale mind you. I had to dispose of a rat i trapped(and killed) so I wrapped it up in similar cloth. I can't remember the exact fabric but it did flare up for a few seconds burn for hours as the wick effect described. I think the wick effect depends very much on the specific the person was wearing. The point is the fabric in the dressing gown could well have been the ideal material to flare up, melt and create the exterior wick.

Ditch

Namle; Good for you, for having a crack at the experiment. As a Rat Catcher I dispose of a fair few dead ones myself. Never occurred to me to wrap one tightly in fabric and set light to it though!

One glaring anomaly in all this though, surely; How did the old boy come to burst into flames while having a pee in the first place?

I mean, fair enough, he could've been having a crafty smoke while he urinated. Maybe the fag fell down inside his dressing gown?

But, then what? He pulled it tight around himself and stood there as his body fat melted? I mean; Come on ....!

OK. Maybe he died of pleasure, from peeing. Dropped this fag we need to assume he was smoking. That went down his dressing gown, as he fell to the floor. Then set light to his perfect material dressing gown and he laid there and smouldered in his own fat.

I think I'd sooner accept Oswald shot JFK. I mean, yes; It's been proven that a Pig Bake works. But, no way can we just say, " Oh well. Quilted pig works. So there's no such thing as SHC. There's simply far too many recorded cases where the victims weren't wrapped up in bed.

Ben Dover and Phil McCock

Pebbles68 wrote: »

Saw a very good documentry about SHC and the conclusion was that it doesn't exist. It is caused by "the wick effect" and it very much depends on what the person is wearing. A small spark or match can cause an item of clothing to flare up. Then if the person doesn't get the flames out the clothes actually act as a wick by absorbing the body fat as it melts. As there is a continuous supply of body fat melting and reburning the body burns at an incredibly high temperature but the heat is trapped internally, inside the wick. Not a conversation you'd be having over dinner!

...........what kind of fabrics?:eek:

*gets naked*

SheFiend

Wow! You guys seem to know quite a bit about this!

I'll share with you my own experience, seeing as how you're open minded. I wouldn't bother telling most people because they don't believe in anything that there isn't an accepted well-known explanation for.

Summer, wearing school uniform of cotton shirt and woolly jumper, plus a leather jacket with a satin-type lining. (Ya, hot weather + leather = too cool for school)

Well I was walking with my hands in my pockets, and suddenly felt my left hand and my side getting hotter and hotter.
I kept my hand in the pocket but pulled the jacket away from my side and flames shot up at me! Needless to say I patted the f*ck out of it to put it out.

On closer examination, my shirt was badly burned, despite being next to my skin; a big smouldering hole in it the size of a dinner plate. My jacket's lining was burned similarly. But my jumper was OK, save some little black singe marks on the inside.

So, ya. **** happens

Ditch

:eek: Shefiend; How the hell do you live ye life without having a complete nervous breakdown?! That's truly horrendous!

It also conveys a pretty typical aspect of the phenomenon too. The way some materials escape damage in a way that defies all logic and even dead pigs.

Reminds me of a case where a young guy went up in his motor. His bits were carbonised. But, his underwear was barely scorched.

Now then, for the haters: Ye don't stipulate whether or not ye were smoking, at the time? Admit ye were and they'll consider that their case proven. They'll completely ignore ye jumper, of course.

And I smoked for forty years. Never immolated. How many people smoke out there? What percentage burst into flames? Yet, the moment anyone does? 'They'll' try for a fag in the equation. Get that and they reckon it's solved :rolleyes:

SheFiend

Haha grand job Ditch!
I was NOT SMOKING at the time! I had a box of fags in the other pocket, but no lighter / matches. That's what made it seem so crazy to me. If I had had either, I would definitely have passed it off as that, and would never have thought it very strange.

Of course there must be a perfectly natural process that causes this, we just don't fully understand it. I did research it a little after that, reading about cases of SHC and also how linseed oil on rags has been known to burst into flames. I don't understand skeptics in this area: Do they think we really know all there is to know about the natural world?

Oh. You say it's documented that some materials escape being burned? That's really interesting. The jumper confounded me.

Ditch

SheFiend wrote: »

I don't understand skeptics in this area: Do they think we really know all there is to know about the natural world?

No, 'Fiend. They simply believe that they have a superior frame of reference. And that we're just gullible idiots who 'want to believe'

Me? I put it down to open mindedness


And, yeppers; The thing about what burns and what doesn't is well enough out there. What actually gets incinerated appears actually a bit random, to be honest. But, yeah, your jumper sounds extremely par for the course.

What did these flames look like, would ye say? You're the first live example I've ever 'met' and I'm just comparing what little I have to your case, out of curiosity.

SheFiend

I don't mind answering questions for you Ditch!
The flames were definitely orange. I can only imagine what was going on before I pulled the jacket away from my jumper, but when I did, this bunch of flames "grew" long and upwards and outwards. Obviously now I realise that oxygen fed them upon exposing the area.

The girl who was with me confirmed they reached right up to my face.

Ditch

This is fascinating and extremely thought provoking. Sadly, I'm just an ordinary bloke with no special insight.

Then again? If I were a Physicist or something? I'd probably be so tied to what's been proven as to dismiss out of hand that for which my science has no answers

Interesting though. I read of a Professor who was just about to let himself into his home when he saw a blue flame jetting out of his thigh.

He too instinctively smothered it. And, right there, we have connection. Ye both managed to stifle the fire with lack of oxygen.

And you don't report being burned. No skin burns? I don't believe he was treated for burns either.

Head wreck, isn't it? A visible form of fire. One so intense that it can, left to it, cremate even the thickest human bones to ash. Yet can equally seem to pick and choose between what else, in the immediate environment, it effects.

Dunno. I'm no mug. I know Von Dannikin is more full of it than a slurry tank. I don't want to believe. I just accept that there's still stuff the white coats and egg heads haven't figured out yet.

SheFiend

Ditch wrote: »

I read of a Professor who was just about to let himself into his home when he saw a blue flame jetting out of his thigh.

He too instinctively smothered it. And, right there, we have connection. Ye both managed to stifle the fire with lack of oxygen.

And you don't report being burned. No skin burns? I don't believe he was treated for burns either.

Head wreck, isn't it? A visible form of fire. One so intense that it can, left to it, cremate even the thickest human bones to ash. Yet can equally seem to pick and choose between what else, in the immediate environment, it effects.

Dunno. I'm no mug. I know Von Dannikin is more full of it than a slurry tank. I don't want to believe. I just accept that there's still stuff the white coats and egg heads haven't figured out yet.

I have little education in physics, but isn't a blue flame hotter than an orange flame? Scary stuff!!
No skin burns at all. Which I thought was strange considering my shirt was badly burned. Though my clothes really weren't on fire for very long, so really it isn't that strange.
I'm fascinated by how someone's body could be completely burned to ash, and yet a pair of underpants survive Firstly, if you tried to cremate a body, including bones, you would need a serious, serious oven ie; a crematorium. A regular bonfire wouldn't manage it. Secondly, was he wearing asbestos underpants?

That "Wick effect" is scary stuff! Another good reason for keeping trim, heehee! :P

jammstarr

On Discovery Channel right now there's a program about this.

LadyMayBelle

Today's article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0923/1224304578285.html

A CORONER’S court has heard how a man who died in a fire in his house three days before Christmas had spontaneously combusted.

The case was outlined in Galway yesterday, where an inquest into the death of a pensioner heard how investigators were baffled as to how Michael Faherty had died.

A verdict was returned that the man died of a phenomenon called spontaneous human combustion.

Mr Faherty (76), originally from Connemara, died at his house at Clareview Park, Ballybane, Galway, on December 22nd.

West Galway corner Dr Ciarán McLoughlin said he had never encountered such a case in the 25 years that he had been investigating deaths in the region.

Forensic experts found that a fire in the fireplace of the sittingroom where the badly burnt body was found was not the cause of the blaze that killed Mr Faherty.

The court was told that no trace of an accelerant had been found and there was nothing to suggest foul play.

Garda Gerard O’Callaghan said he had gone to the house after the fire had been put out and found Mr Faherty lying on his back in a small sittingroom, with his head closest to an open fireplace.

He said the fire had been confined to the sittingroom and the rest of the house sustained only smoke damage. The only damage was to the body, which had been totally burnt, the ceiling above him and the floor underneath.

The alarm had been raised by a neighbour, Tom Mannion, when a fire alarm went off at about 3am on December 22nd.

Assistant chief fire officer Gerry O’Malley told Dr McLoughlin two experienced fire officers believed the fire had not spread from the fireplace. They could not determine the cause of the blaze.

Pathologist Prof Grace Callagy said Mr Faherty had last been seen two to three days before his body was found.

She said the body had been cremated and it had not been possible to determine the cause of death because of the extent of damage to the organs.

Dr McLoughlin said he had consulted medical textbooks and carried out other research in an attempt to find an explanation.

He said Prof Bernard Knight, in his book on forensic pathology, had written about spontaneous combustion and noted that such reported cases were almost always near an open fireplace or chimney.

“This fire was thoroughly investigated and I’m left with the conclusion that this fits into the category of spontaneous human combustion, for which there is no adequate explanation,” he said

ImGettinPaper

LadyMayBelle wrote: »

Today's article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0923/1224304578285.html

Grim Reaper'd

Ditch

Faaaaaaarrrrkk!!! :eek: And that's in todays Times?! Wow!

Let's see the nay sayers pick their way out of That one! :cool:

the purple tin

I once heard an old wives tale that claims SHC happens when somebody has sold their soul to the devil and their time has run out.
It's how he brings them to hell :eek:
Spill the beans She Fiend

jammstarr

I read that in the news and instantly thought of the thread here.

SheFiend

the purple tin wrote: »

I once heard an old wives tale that claims SHC happens when somebody has sold their soul to the devil and their time has run out.
It's how he brings them to hell :eek:
Spill the beans She Fiend

Woah! Fck, that explains that one! Though he must have added on quite a bit of extra time at the last minute Cheers Beezelbub!

Technique

Inquest told spontaneous human combustion 'probably urban myth'




KATE HEANEY
A DONEGAL coroner has described spontaneous human combustion as “probably an urban myth” at the inquest into the death of a 50-year-old woman in Carndonagh last year.
Dr John Madden was addressing the case of Elizabeth McLaughlin, Close Padraig, Carndonagh, who died on December 31st last. A garda described finding the charred remains on the floor of the sitting room with damage confined to the remains and immediate vicinity.
The inquest heard from Harry Masterson, partner of the deceased, who had stayed with her over Christmas and returned to his home in Moville on December 30th to collect medication.
Normally Ms McLaughlin would have called him at about 7am each day, but this did not happen. He became concerned and took the bus to Carndonagh onDecember 31st at 9.30am.
Mr Masterson gained access to the house with the help of a nephew. The Garda and fire service attended. “Inside the sitting room on the floor were the charred remains of a person,” Sgt John McLaughlin told the inquest. “An unusual aspect was that the actual burning and fire damage were confined to the human remains on the floor and the immediate vicinity,” he said.
Deputy State Pathologist Dr Michael Curtis conducted the autopsy on Ms McLaughlin.
“There was a high level of cyanide in the blood stream and carbon monoxide in the atmosphere, which is not normally there. There was no antemortem damage,” the coroner said.
“Death was caused by fire. There was talk of spontaneous human combustion at the time. I did a little research and that probably is an urban myth but when I did see the remains, it did come to mind . . . I believe the clothes acted like a wick on a candle”.
The jury returned a verdict of death by fire

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1112/1224307460499.html

cruasder777

"Most scientists say that the wick effect is the answer. But it doesn’t explain a lot of the cases. And SHC researchers agree, the wick effect just doesn’t answer the phenomena. The wick effect takes hours and hours to reduce a body to ash. It just doesn’t burn in short enough time and hot enough to explain many cases of SHC. I do believe that some cases may be explained by the wick effect, but it can’t explain the cases where there are survivors and/or witnesses. The most well known survivor is Jack Angel. He claims that on November 12, 1974, he fell asleep in his trailer. Only to wake up 4 days later, with mysterious burn marks on his right arm. Later, more burns appeared, on his ankle, back, and right arm. Eventually, at the hospital, he claimed he was burning and they amputated his right hand. His account of his SHC experience has been under scrutiny due to a lawsuit he testified in, that contradicts his account.
Another survivor, in 1991, Winifried Gowtherpe who resides in Yorkshire, had strange burns appear without cause on her arms and hands".


http://www.unsolvedrealm.com/2010/12/24/spontaneous-human-combustion-shc-still-an-unsolved-mystery/


"An SHC claim on September 20, 1938, England, was that of a woman that burst into flames on a crowded dance floor. Others tried to put out the flame, but within minutes, she was just a pile of ash. "

....That was quite a famous case.