symptoms of pregnancy?

magentas

Hi guys, I hate writing this and really hope that I'm just been paranoid but...

Basically I got my collie girl nearly 4 weeks ago. The second time I went to visit her in the shelter she was in heat, she's about 8/9months old, and she had just finished her heat about a week before we got her.

In the past week, I've noticed she's put on weight (she wasn't underweight when we got her mind, but I suppose she's just been eating better food, so maybe that's all it is?)
Her nipples are really protruding and they're after getting reallt big to be honest. She is also very clingy the last few days and super affectionate...even more so than usual!

Now from my research on-line, these are signs of pregnancy but the thing is she was in the shelter the whole duration of her heat and would not have been allowed near any dogs.

I have read about false pregnancies where a bitch has all the symptoms of being pregnant but isn't

I know that the only way to determine this for sure is to get her checked by a vet but we haven't actually signed adoption yet as we were asked to foster her over Christmas first (long story!) and part of the fostering contract is not to bring her to any vet without consulting them as they have their own vet.
I'm only worried about it the last couple of days and don't want to contact them unneccssarily over Christmas as I know they are up to their eyes out there at the moment, I will be in touch with them Wed/Thurs of next weekand will see what they think then but in the meantime, what do you think?

Am I over-reacting? I have no experience of a pregnant dog myself but after feeling her stomach and trying to compare it to the other dog, I can't notice a difference but then again, I'm in no position to call it!

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

PS. I dread to say it but if she is pregnant, what is the procedure for having the pregnancy terminated? What stage is too late to have this procedure done? Hopefully it doesn't come to this:(

andreac

It could be a phantom hence the symptoms of her looking pregnant.

How long is she over her heat now? You dont really start to tell for def by looking at a dog if shes pregnant until around 6 weeks or so.

Best thing is to bring her to a vet and get her checked for def.

They can produce milk even with a phantom.

One thing i will recommend is that if she is having a phantom chances are she will be prone to having them all the time so i highly recommend getting her spayed as this will cut these out. Phantoms can take a lot out of a dog so i wouldnt be putting her through it if shes going to be prone to getting them.

EGAR

A canine pregnancy last for app 63 days. Most vets will do a spay on a pregnant bitch only in the first trimester.

Have you tried to feel her belly?

magentas

andreac wrote: »

It could be a phantom hence the symptoms of her looking pregnant.

How long is she over her heat now? You dont really start to tell for def by looking at a dog if shes pregnant until around 6 weeks or so.

Best thing is to bring her to a vet and get her checked for def.

They can produce milk even with a phantom.

One thing i will recommend is that if she is having a phantom chances are she will be prone to having them all the time so i highly recommend getting her spayed as this will cut these out. Phantoms can take a lot out of a dog so i wouldnt be putting her through it if shes going to be prone to getting them.

oh she will be spayed as soon as she is ready, it'll probably be next month I imagine. Trust me, I wouldn't be able to deal with the heats and I don't want to put her through it anyway.

She is over the heat probably 5weeks now. It may well be a phantom pregnancy...hopefully.
Does a phantom last as long as a real one?

Thanks for the reply andreac

magentas

EGAR wrote: »

A canine pregnancy last for app 63 days. Most vets will do a spay on a pregnant bitch only in the first trimester.

Have you tried to feel her belly?

EGAR, forgive my ignorance but the first trimester would be when?
I'm assuming the first 20 or so days giving that pregnancy lasts for 60 odd days?

we have her 4weeks now so her heat would have finished about 5weeks ago.

I have tried feeling her belly, I've read that if it's firm it's a sign that she may well be pregnant. It is slightly firmer around her abdomen but not much.
I've felt the other dogs tummy and they seem pretty much the same.

If she was pregnant, I'm guessing she'd be 5-6weeks gone so it would probably be more obvious and her tummy would be noticably firmer

should I contact the shelter sooner or do you think it can wait til wed/thurs?

Thanks so much for the help

Whispered

I'd say contact the shelter tomorrow if possibl. If she is pregnant she will need special care which the vet can advise you on, or you can book her in for termination (not sure of the timings). If she's not pregnant, then she will need to see a vet soon anyway to see what is going on.

Best of luck.

magentas

she has just vomited! she hasn't done that in the month she's been with us.
The two of them were asleep in front of the fireplace when she started heaving and threw up, I brought her outside and she threw up again,

she's only had nuts all week because she had diarrohea last week and it's pure liquid, looks like frothy beer, poor girl:(

EGAR

First trimester would be in the first three weeks of pregnancy. Most vets will not spay a bitch after that as the pups are viable. So if she is pregnant she will be past the first trimester by now if she came out of heat 5 weeks ago and would be in her second almost third trimester.

Some bitches don't *round up* until the last week of pregnancy.

I would contact the shelter ASAP and get her to a vet to have her checked for a pregnancy.

EGAR

Some bitches vomit during pregnancy, real or phantom. Same goes for diarrhoea. However, I would get her to a vet as soon as possible, a good vet should be able to detect pups after day 28 or so.

magentas

God I'm devastated about that, I thought a termination would be a possibility.
Hopefully she's not pregnant, I really don't see how she could have became pregnant as all the dogs are so secure out there and only allowed out for walks on-leash.
I'll get in touch tomorrow and see what they say,
Thanks a mill guys

Whispered

It's not the end of the world if she is. It's not ideal but at least you will be giving the pups a much better start than they would have had, and the rescue will help you to rehome them.

magentas

Whispered wrote: »

It's not the end of the world if she is. It's not ideal but at least you will be giving the pups a much better start than they would have had, and the rescue will help you to rehome them.

I know, thanks. It's just that there's so many unwanted dogs here already, prevention is better than cure and all that.

My friends dog (private rescue)had pups a few months ago, she brought her to vet to get spayed but she was only 2weeks from giving birth so it was too late.
She had to take a few days off work so that she could be there for the births and make sure everything went ok, there's a lot of time, effort and expense to having pups, it was hard work and the poor dog was exhausted after it, although we reckon she had just been used for constant breeding all her life, poor thing.

And anyway, knowing me, I'd probably want to keep them all!

TooManyDogs

Isn't there an injection to bring on spontaneous abortion? I've heard of it being given quite late in the pregnancy but I believe it can be fairly traumatic so maybe as a last resort? There's others here with veterinary experience who could advise you better

dvet

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Isn't there an injection to bring on spontaneous abortion? I've heard of it being given quite late in the pregnancy but I believe it can be fairly traumatic so maybe as a last resort? There's others here with veterinary experience who could advise you better

If it's an actual pregnancy, there's actually a couple of different injections that can be used, (based on different hormones), some can only be used in the first 3-5 days but some can be used around mid pregnancy. Depending on the hormones involved though some are riskier than others (pyometra being the most common risk- even for some of the early pregnancy injections), so the best thing is to go with thatever your own vet has most experience of using. Or, as the possibility remains, they may decide that it is best to let the pregnancy go ahead at this stage.

If it's a phantom pregnancy, you can treat this with medication or without, but again your vet will be best placed to decide which route to go, depending on your dog's symptoms.

I would say ring the shelter ASAP, their vet probably has plenty of experience in dealing with cases like this so will be able to give you an answer pretty quick!

magentas

Thanks guys, just rang the shelter this morning, will know by midweek if she's really pregnant or not but they reckon that if she is, she's about 6weeks go so the pregnancy will have to go ahead.

will update when I know more,
thanks so much for all the help:)

cucoigcrice

get them to check out alizin its an injection that can be given quite late on in pregnancy to abort pups.

EGAR

Alizin has quite severe side effects if given after day 25. Low thyroid, pyo etc and there isn't even a longterm study re side effects available on that drug. And once the pups are viable you are forcing the bitch to give birth to dead pups..

I think the best action now is to let Nature take its course and try the best for the pups.

LucyBliss

When we got our rescue dog, we brought her to the vets for her second round of shots and discovered that she was pregnant. My grandmother had been saying to me that the dog was pregnant, pointing out the changes to her body and I was just "don't go there, Granny!" but she was right. She was always right when it came to the animals.

Anyway, the dog had six adorable pups that we found good homes for via the local rescue. They wanted to take her back and the pups but I said absolutely not. She was ours and we were going to take care of her and her pups. And you know what, I loved every minute of it. Yes, there was much care to be taken of the mother to make sure she was able to give the pups the nutrients and me weighing them almost obsessively to make sure none of them was being given the short shrift when it came to food, and the house looked like we were some kind of shanty town when it came to papers being down on the floor as the pups learnt to walk and eat solid food, and anyone who walked in was handed a pup or two to handle so they'd be well socialised, but it was so much fun.

To be honest with you, I'd much prefer the vet to tell me my dog was pregnant than that they have some horrible illness. There are good people out there who will want to take a pup, we're not talking about someone who breeds continuously or who is careless with their unspayed dog here. I may sound like a crazy loo-lah here but taking care of pups can be a fantastically fun, not to mention life-affirming experience, because you get to see these little babes go through their early stages and get up to all sorts. It's a serious tonic to watch them find their feet and learn to move about. I videoed our six and I like to watch it when I need serious cheering up.

It's a shock to find out about an unexpected pregnancy this way, but it can turn out to be something really positive.

cucoigcrice

EGAR wrote: »

Alizin has quite severe side effects if given after day 25. Low thyroid, pyo etc and there isn't even a longterm study re side effects available on that drug. And once the pups are viable you are forcing the bitch to give birth to dead pups..

I think the best action now is to let Nature take its course and try the best for the pups.

Edgar- we use alizin in work, it has never shown any side effects since i started and that is 5years. This is the only drug licensed for abortions so therefore the side effects must be minimal. There are side effects with every drug but it doesnt mean that they are 100% going to effect each patient.
I dont know where you got your information from but with regards to pyometra's, reading the post the owner is going to get the bitch speyed so therefore the risk of pyo's will therefore be ellimated!
I have never heard that it can cause low thyroid!!!

"In bitches treated beyond the twentieth day of gestation, abortion may be accompanied by the physiological signs of parturition, i.e. foetal expulsion, slight anorexia and mammary congestion.
After induced abortion with Alizin an early return to oestrus is frequently observed (the oestrus to oestrus interval may be shortened by one to three months)." Noah Compendium

EGAR

There were several German case studies done on Alizin after dogs developed thyroid problems AND pyo. And if you use it in work then you should know that a bitch cannot be spayed straight after an abortion so the risk of pyo is very real.

Also:

"The likelihood of adverse side effects developing increases as the pregnancy progresses. Bitches treated after day 25 have a far greater
chance of developing physiological signs such as mammary congestion or mastitis, lethargy, depression, anorexia and the stressful physical expulsion of foetuses. For these reasons it is vital to initiate Alizin injections as close to mismating as possible. An early return to heat is also frequently observed and bitches must be managed carefully to prevent any subsequent mismating incidents."

dollydishmop

EGAR wrote: »

Alizin has quite severe side effects if given after day 25. Low thyroid, pyo etc and there isn't even a longterm study re side effects available on that drug. And once the pups are viable you are forcing the bitch to give birth to dead pups..

I think the best action now is to let Nature take its course and try the best for the pups.

Totally agree...the bitch has passed the point of no return in my opinion with regards to this pregnancy

cucoigcrice wrote: »

"In bitches treated beyond the twentieth day of gestation, abortion may be accompanied by the physiological signs of parturition, i.e. foetal expulsion, slight anorexia and mammary congestion.
After induced abortion with Alizin an early return to oestrus is frequently observed (the oestrus to oestrus interval may be shortened by one to three months)." Noah Compendium

On that page you googled (I think google led me to the same one )

you either missed this bit

"...For the termination of pregnancy in bitches up to 45 days from mating..."

or you missed this post from the OP

magentas wrote: »

they reckon that if she is, she's about 6weeks go so the pregnancy will have to go ahead.

Regardless of the use of Alizin, and any side-effects (the descriptions of which google provided many, many reports also) the advice Magentas has received from the pound/rescue is correct. Its too late for anything now, but to monitor the bitch and to try and ensure a healthy birthing process.

My twocentsworth...aborting a bitch as late as 45 days for any reason other than to save the bitch's own life, and forcing her to pass dead pups, deal with the likelihood of mastitis and all that that involves etc is an utterly abhorrent idea.

cucoigcrice

EGAR wrote: »

There were several German case studies done on Alizin after dogs developed thyroid problems AND pyo. And if you use it in work then you should know that a bitch cannot be spayed straight after an abortion so the risk of pyo is very real.

If you read the Noah compedium and the virbac data sheets they do not mention anything with regards to causing tyroid problems, legally they would have to mention this is it were the case!!! I am aware that you can not spey straight away, as they generally come into heat again quite soon after the injection. You would then need to wait 6 weeks after that season.

Also:

"The likelihood of adverse side effects developing increases as the pregnancy progresses. Bitches treated after day 25 have a far greater
chance of developing physiological signs such as mammary congestion or mastitis, lethargy, depression, anorexia and the stressful physical expulsion of foetuses. For these reasons it is vital to initiate Alizin injections as close to mismating as possible. An early return to heat is also frequently observed and bitches must be managed carefully to prevent y
any subsequent mismating incidents."

Yes obviously it is more benefical to the bitch if she is injected as close to mismating as possible. I was merly giving the poster another option. With regards to mastitis etc all are treatable, so it is not as if you are talking foof life threating.

cucoigcrice

Yes i agree that at this stage she probably should have the pups but as said already it was another option i was giving the OP to consider with the vet.
On that page you googled (I think google led me to the same one )

you either missed this bit

"...For the termination of pregnancy in bitches up to 45 days from mating..."

or you missed this post from the OP


Regardless of the use of Alizin, and any side-effects (the descriptions of which google provided many, many reports also) the advice Magentas has received from the pound/rescue is correct. Its too late for anything now, but to monitor the bitch and to try and ensure a healthy birthing process.

My twocentsworth...aborting a bitch as late as 45 days for any reason other than to save the bitch's own life, and forcing her to pass dead pups, deal with the likelihood of mastitis and all that that involves etc is an utterly abhorrent idea.[/QUOTE]

I didnt miss either as the bitch is still within this period, just about however. I was not telling the OP to go ahead with the injection i was mery suggesting to talk to the vet about ailizin.. I then was saying that was said about the injection was not completely true facts.
P.s i have the compedium at home.

dollydishmop

cucoigcrice wrote: »

I was merly giving the poster another option. With regards to mastitis etc all are treatable, so it is not as if you are talking foof life threating.

At 6 weeks Alizin is no longer an option...:rolleyes:

Star Bingo

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magentas

Hi guys,
just an update (of sorts!) the lady from shelter came to the house the other day to look at my girl, she said that while she is showing all the symptoms of pregnancy, she is 80% sure that she isn't actually pregnant but she will be checked by the vet early next week to be certain.

Hopefully she isn't but the shelter have told us that if she is, they can send her to the vets to terminate the pups, basically like having a C section?

I really am not well up on the medical end of things but from the posts here, it's very late in the pregnancy for a termination of any kind and it sounds like it would be very traumatic on the mother.

The idea of having the pups terminated at this late stage doesn't sit well with me as they would be so developed at this stage and even though they would not be "planned" pups, I'm sure we could find loving homes for each and every one, rather than have them killed.

Although it may be out of my hands as at the end of the day, we are still only fostering her, even though we've had her for over a month now and were told that we can adopt her once we're happy with how the fostering went.

Maybe I'm just getting way ahead of myself here and it is just a phantom pregnancy, hopefully that's all it is. Will post again when I know for certain...I'm so anxious about it though and the sooner we find out the better.

Thanks a million for all the advice and help so far guys:)

Whispered

Thanks for the update. Good luck.

With regards to the termination, depending on the rescue they may take into account that you do not wish (or are not sure if you wish) the termination to go ahead. I'm all for lessening the amount of dogs going through rescue, but have to admit that it would not sit well with me either. I know it's personal opinion so I don't wish to argue the point with anyone, but for me it's almost akin to having healthy pups put to sleep. I'd feel myself that a termination so late in a pregnancy should really only happen where the mothers health is at risk. I know that could be a case of heart ruling head, but I can't help it.

EGAR

This is utterly ridiculous. The shelter should have had her at the vets the moment you told them of your suspicions. And to terminate at this late stage is nothing less but savage.

magentas

OK so I'm just back from the vets and she IS pregnant.
Mixed feelings but the only option now is to let the pregnancy go ahead and have the pups.
the vet reckons she is 7/8weeks gone, meaning she is due to give birth possibly in the next week!:eek:

well, at least we know now and we need to have her and her pups best interests at heart now. we will view this with a positive outlook now and although honestly I would have been much happier if she wasn't pregnant, the fact now is that she is and we have to look forward.

TBH I knew going into the vets this morning what I was going to be told, she's really swelled up the last 2days and her nipples look like they are ready to burst! I just needed the scan and confirmation.

The vet said abortion was still possible up to 45days but he wouldn't reccommend it and I wouldn't have considered it. The shelter said it was our call so it looks like we're going to have beautiful new pups!
The shelter will help us re-home them when they are ready which won't be for about 12weeks

so you can be sure I'll be on here again looking for advice on labour, new mothers and babies and much more besides!:o

Toulouse

Make sure your vets have emergency cover and that you have the number handy. Alot of dogs whelp during the night and if she's been mated by a much larger dog then she could get into difficulty.

Usually if they go off their food it's a sign that they'll go into labour soon.

The shelter should be able to provide you with lots of help and advice so make sure you get onto them and get as much information as you can.

dollydishmop

Best piece of advice I could give you right now is to go to your preferred online bookstore, and order "Book of the Bitch" by J M Evans & Kay White.

This book *will* be your bible for the next 10 weeks