Calender Controversy

Whispered

DD it's not just mary and paddy though is it? Some People involved in rescue don't think much of it either. (ie people who don't need to take stock of what they are oing)

Sligopark, to be honest I'm still having trouble understanding what you are saying, so I'm not going to reply. You have once again, totally confused me

AJ that's exactly it, lol, I couldn't have described it better myself. It's supposed to be sexual, or it's not. If it is, take away the pup, if it's not, take away the sexy clothes.

sligopark

Maybe some smartarse photographer should take stock that the average good folk 'Mary' and 'Paddy' are the people involved in rehoming dogs here in Ireland rather than those enticed by bestiality.



Perhaps now we have widened the scope of those willing to take on dogs we will see another type of abuse hit our shores here we headn't wanted for.



why all the excuses and no one calling it what it was - a simple and honest mistake?


If not a mistake why not next year to spite Irish Marys and Paddys have a chihiua taking a doggy treat off a gay lads balls? (I'll even volunteer)


"ah sure why not"

sligopark

Whispered wrote: »

AJ that's exactly it, lol, I couldn't have described it better myself. It's supposed to be sexual, or it's not. If it is, take away the pup, if it's not, take away the sexy clothes.

and either take away the sexual innuendo or not - well said

TooManyDogs

sligopark - what's with your obsession of bestiality???

sligopark

pictures of pups sucking nubile female models tits trying to entice folk into adopting dogs or donate money when the truth is far from it especially when photos of dogs before and after would be better placed to entice folk to take on an abused dog or puop rather than let it be pts

perhaps I am being picky but dogs sucking tits - never thought that worked to get dogs adopted

silly me

Discodog

sligopark wrote: »

Perhaps now we have widened the scope of those willing to take on dogs we will see another type of abuse hit our shores here we headn't wanted for.

Are you being serious ?.

I really don't think that anyone who is planning to adopt a dog is going to be put off ASH - in a few weeks time the only people that will remember will the ones who bought it !.

I once commissioned a calendar that featured two nuns in a fountain with a priest wearing a frogman suit. It was the photographers idea & as the theme was Black & White - I went with it. But that was in the UK & far from complaining the calendar won an award.

Discodog

sligopark wrote: »

pictures of pups sucking nubile female models tits trying to entice folk into adopting dogs or donate money when the truth is far from it especially when photos of dogs before and after would be better placed to entice folk to take on an abused dog or puop rather than let it be pts

Exactly !. The truth is very different in that some dogs are treated like babies & nurtured whereas others are thrown out & killed. Maybe that is the point.

Good Art is never about simple answers.

Cherry Blossom

Having looked at the other 6 pictures the models look detatched from dogs in all of them, it's as if they are just posing for the camera and the dogs are just there by chance or as fashion accessories or something. Seeing the controversial pic in the context of the others, it sort of reminds me of a tattoo in the same place, not supposed to have any sexual meaning just a fashion statement. Overall opinion of the pics I have seen: just 'meh' if that makes sence!

Discodog

Whispered wrote: »

DD it's not just mary and paddy though is it? Some People involved in rescue don't think much of it either.

But you know that some people in rescue strongly dislike others in rescue. Are they objecting because they are genuinely offended or because it will raise £10,000 & not for their rescue ?.

If one wanted to be real & show the real world for some dogs in Ireland, you would have to show images that many would not want to see. The normal happy doggy calendars portray a false overall image.

Some rescues are learning to fundraise & it is going to upset some of those that don't - like the fun over PAWS chuggers. As money gets tighter there is going to be a bigger struggle to get funds & it's going to get a lot more competitive.

sligopark

Discodog wrote: »

Are you being serious ?

yes I am - whilst you laugh it off - get on google and check out how animals are abused these days and wake up.

Discodog wrote: »

I really don't think that anyone who is planning to adopt a dog is going to be put off ASH

and the average 'Mary' and 'Paddy' laughed off by the photographer will be enticed to take on a dog out of pity and welfare by a photo of a pup sucking some models tits?

'Ah Jaysus mary I see a pup hanging off a young one's tits here - why not take on a pup?'

"Ah Paddy thats a great idea lets get over to Ash"

GTF

More over if they saw the photos the likes of which have been posted by EGAR here with follow ups of rehoming where a lady wife might say to her husband

"Let s get a dog (for whatever reason [perhaps other than it hanging off her tits]) - my heart goes out for this wee fella and look how happy he is now - lets do the right thing..."

'Jaysus love you're right lets do that I would love to share my life walks and countryside with a neglected animal who deserves more'

Do you think this calender provoked that decision for 'Mary' and 'Paddy' ?

Discodog wrote: »

I once commissioned a calendar that featured two nuns in a fountain with a priest wearing a frogman suit. It was the photographers idea & as the theme was Black & White - I went with it. But that was in the UK & far from complaining the calendar won an award.

congratulations - priest dressed as an asshole wins award - how unlikely is that?

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Having looked at the other 6 pictures the models look detatched from dogs in all of them, it's as if they are just posing for the camera and the dogs are just there by chance or as fashion accessories or something. Seeing the controversial pic in the context of the others, it sort of reminds me of a tattoo in the same place, not supposed to have any sexual meaning just a fashion statement. Overall opinion of the pics I have seen: just 'meh' if that makes sence!

If you look at fashion adverts from the 1930's many featured models with dogs. Dogs were a huge fashion accessory especially Greyhounds - wouldn't it be nice to see them like that again !

How often do we know of someone who gets a dog, for whatever reason, & stays detached. Right now thousands of "detached" dogs are sitting alone in kennels. Maybe the artist was influenced by the fact that many dogs are bought on the whim.

Discodog

sligopark wrote: »

yes I am - whilst you laugh it off - get on google and check out how animals are abused these days and wake up.

I have a better idea. Why don't you read the majority of my posts & then judge if I know anything about animal abuse :rolleyes:

If the majority are put off then that's a risk that ASH will have to take.

sligopark

Discodog wrote: »

I have a better idea. Why don't you read the majority of my posts & then judge if I know anything about animal abuse :rolleyes:

If the majority are put off then that's a risk that ASH will have to take.

ah sure then why don't you post up something more toward dogs being adopted other than your post regalling us how you dressed a priest up as a dick - my opinion matters despite how you promoted priesthood - the fact is this calender and its pic of a pup hanging off a model's tits has done nothing for dog rescue other than promote ASH and at that do nothing (if not negative) to entice the ordinary 'Mary' and 'Paddy' slagged off by the photographer to adopt a dog (and not a pup) in Ireland

Discodog

From 1947 - One for the Ladies:

sligopark

Discodog wrote: »

From 1947 - One for the Ladies:

wha hooo - no pups hanging off tits (as per the calender) - nor anyone pleading please give this dog a better life

what's your point in throwing up these unrelated pics?



EDIT - is that dog licking that chaps balls - is that the relevance? WTF?

Whispered

Discodog wrote: »

But you know that some people in rescue strongly dislike others in rescue. Are they objecting because they are genuinely offended or because it will raise £10,000 & not for their rescue ?.

If one wanted to be real & show the real world for some dogs in Ireland, you would have to show images that many would not want to see. The normal happy doggy calendars portray a false overall image.

All very true, I've stopped dealing with one or two rescues because of stupid politics like that, like you, I think if people worked better together, things would really get done. The comment on the marys and paddys, and your (quite right) rebuttal of rescues having a problem with rescues would be all well and good if it was one or the other, but people who have nothing to do with rescue, as well as people heavily involved both have taken issue (with that one image it seems). It seems to be people, just people, my point on the rescues was to illustrate the assumption made that people who have a problem with the image should "take a step back" and "take stock" of what they do. Suggesting that people who have a problem with it are doing nothing themselves.

Discodog wrote: »

If you look at fashion adverts from the 1930's many featured models with dogs. Dogs were a huge fashion accessory especially Greyhounds - wouldn't it be nice to see them like that again !

Wouldn't you say that dogs as fashion accessories is one of the biggest problems rescues face at the moment, flavour of the month, discarded when the next fad pops up. Which brings up the question - is it irresponsible for a rescue to show dogs as fashion accessories?

DD, out of interest, you obviously have some sort of knowledge on the subject, if a rescue which you support, asked you to come up with an idea for a calendar, would you choose something similar?

adser53

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I know what you mean by this, It's sort of confusing and illogical, it gives me a horrible feeling of annoyance like a problem I can't figure out an answer to. It makes me feel like a person with OCD lookin at a speck of dust that's just out of reach

This is how I feel about it too. No, I wouldn't like it hanging on my fridge for a month and I fail to see the sense in the picture. It's distasteful but some of the comments on here have been way OTT in my humble opinion.




How's about this for controversial... :eek::eek::eek:

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/hoff.jpg

Discodog

Whispered wrote: »

but people who have nothing to do with rescue, as well as people heavily involved both have taken issue (with that one image it seems)..

Wouldn't you say that dogs as fashion accessories is one of the biggest problems rescues face at the moment, flavour of the month, discarded when the next fad pops up. Which brings up the question - is it irresponsible for a rescue to show dogs as fashion accessories?

DD, out of interest, you obviously have some sort of knowledge on the subject, if a rescue which you support, asked you to come up with an idea for a calendar, would you choose something similar?

This calendar arose because a fashion model wanted to raise money for ASH. Good photographers are creative people & want to a) produce work that satisfies the client & b) that satisfies their creativity. I have no idea if ASH looked at every image & approved this one willingly or was persuaded to do so. Were alternatives available ?.

Unless you use an agency or are creative yourself, the photographer often comes up with ideas. In doing a rescue calendar you have a choice of copying everyone else & offending no one or being different. Especially in areas where rescues overlap or market more aggressively you may have several calendars for sale all looking similar. In my experience the biggest mistake that rescues make regarding fundraising is not to use their database of previous clients.

I think it depends on what one means by fashion accessory. The Parisian Lady with her poodle is very unlikely to mistreat it. I wonder that when someone chooses the latest cool breed if they wouldn't still of got a dog anyway. Did the desire for the breed make them decide to get a dog that they would not of got otherwise ?.

The Greyhound thing fascinates me, as an owner of one, because of the way that the image changed. Greyhounds were often featured in Art Nouveau accompanied by fashionable women whereas now its by men dressed as farmers. This is a classic example of thin model echoed by thin Greyhound.

Discodog

sligopark wrote: »

what's your point in throwing up these unrelated pics?
EDIT - is that dog licking that chaps balls - is that the relevance? WTF?

The point is to illustrate that dogs have always been used in promotion & often the image bears no relationship to the product. Clearly the dog is there to show that the man is compassionate as well as manly. Maybe someone thought it to be a pun on Boxer Shorts !.

Do you see the image as a dog licking his two veg - if so I would recommend a visit to the doctor.

BengaLover

Discodog, after reading your comments and your website, I apologise for being so judgemental.. If 10,000 quid was raised for any animal charity on the back of those images then bravo.
What animal charities need a lot of at the end of the day to sustain the food, vets bills and overheads is cold, hard cash.
I re-iterate that I dont feel the images make people aware of animal welfare per se, but even though I dont see the point of a pup appearing to suckle from a sexy lady, I certainly cant see a hint of bestiality in ANY of those images.

How come no one objects to this image down through the centuries?

ISDW

Discodog wrote: »

Well this is a comment from the photographer & I agree with him but I also love the images - so much so that I have just ordered mine. Apparently the are almost sold out so that will be £10,000 for ASH. If there hadn't been any controversy & this thread I would of missed it, so thanks OP.

If I were wealthy I might even be tempted to buy the originals - I have a feeling that they would be a good investment.

http://www.adelheidwalsh.com/1/category/ash%20animal%20rescue/1.html

"It seems to me that it's the average "Mary" and "Paddy" who are unable to see all the hard work, raw emotions, good intentions and artistic skills that has gone into this Charity Calendar now known as controverial and shocking! I think it's time all the people involved get recognition for their amazing work, support and effort - all offered by all for FREE to help raise much needed funds for Ash."

Maybe "Mary" and "Paddy" should take a step back and take stock of what they're doing to help where help is needed? Stop wasting energy on judging those who go out of their way to help and they way it's done. Maybe even broaden the hrizon and appreciate an art that's not necessarily to their taste, but knowing it's for animal charity, still offer support? "

How patronising and pathetic. Because we don't agree with what they've done, we don't 'get it' and we're backwards Irish people living in the bog, seriously? Its art dahling, we're just too stupid to appreciate it. Amazing work, how hard is it to stand there dressed like that clutching a puppy? Maybe if they actually went into ASH and cleaned out the kennels, or did the transport runs they'd understand what rescue work is.

I am a 45 year old, unmarried mother:eek: with a degree, who has spent a huge part of my life living in the UK, worked in the music business in London for over 10 years and had a fantastic time, saw lots of interesting things;) so no I am not a prude or a "mary". A lot of things get excused in the name of art but the condescension in that email and your reply DD (which actually has really surprised me) is indicative of the lack of respect for other people that permeates our society - and actually helps to perpetuate the animal cruelty that goes on.

DD - fundraising. I was talking to a lady from a local rescue to me last night, they are probably closing their doors next week, owe their vets thousands of euros. They take animals in from this area, yet another charity regularly collect in Sligo and take funds away from them, but do not take animals in from the county on a regular basis. I don't applaud that kind of fundraising at all, and don't see how that is working together.

BengaLover

With respect, this thread has nothing to do with the politics of animal welfare (that would be a LONG and heated thread at the best of times)
Its a discussion on whether that image is appropriate or not, some posters feel it sexualises animals, whilst others like myself think its not an image that promotes animal welfare, but at the end of the day, this image has raised an inordinate amount of sorely needed money, whether 'we' like it, dislike it, approve, disapprove or not!

sligopark

ISDW wrote: »

I was talking to a lady from a local rescue to me last night, they are probably closing their doors next week, owe their vets thousands of euros.

sorry to hear this - which rescue centre?

Discodog

ISDW wrote: »

A lot of things get excused in the name of art but the condescension in that email and your reply DD (which actually has really surprised me) is indicative of the lack of respect for other people that permeates our society - and actually helps to perpetuate the animal cruelty that goes on.

I don't applaud that kind of fundraising at all, and don't see how that is working together.

I agree that it is condescending but I suspect that there is more than a grain of truth in it. Do you think that a rescue using that image would be headline news in the UK ?. I don't see it as a lack of respect. I see it as an individual variation in how it is perceived. Like all Art, Media, Comedy etc some will appreciate it whilst others feel offended. There is a fuss over Mrs Brown here yet it has just pulled a huge audience for RTE & has been commissioned by the BBC. A Boston TV channel has received loads of complaints when they showed Father Ted.

There is a simple rule - if you are offended don't buy.

I emailed some links to a few dog loving friends & to date four have ordered it - so clearly not everyone is offended. It is not a billboard. It will be on view in the privacy of people's homes.

I agree that outside fundraisers take money from local rescues but it is impossible to stop. Therefore it is up to each rescue to ensure that it has a prominent profile & to make sure that it uses its existing clients to maximum effect. Technology makes it really easy to maintain a database & then keep existing contacts informed. It's easy to do a monthly news email, a quarterly online news sheet, sell items including Christmas Cards & Calendars.

Maybe the best approach is for rescues to appoint a PR/Marketing person on a commission only basis as a percentage of what they bring in. I know a professional fundraiser in the UK who makes £250,000 for herself per year by raising millions.

You know that Irish rescues will never properly work together. There is too much "history" for that. The rescues are totally divided & I believe that this is a major problem in that there can never be a coordinated response. ANVIL tried but I think that even they gave up. I know for a fact that the Greens got some emails from rescues supporting the DBEB & some opposing it.

shinikins

I don't see what the big fuss is over one image TBH. Its quite a beautiful picture, and if it was in Vogue as an ad for Gucci i'm sure it wouldn't raise too many eyebrows. However in the context of the rest of the calender it doesn't really fit-the rest of the images are quite cutesy and old fashioned and tongue in cheek in a way whereas this is very serious, so it was always going to stick out.

I think people in general have a certain intolerance to breastfeeding in public, (just think of how many mothers have been told to go and breastfeed their infant in a toilet as people have complained) so to swap an infant for a pup just inflames moral indignation even more.

I do have to laugh though at the fact that it is this one image that people have a problem with rather than the calender as a whole-what about the one of the model in suspenders and stockings with her dogs leashes wrapped around her legs-i haven't heard anyone complaining that it shows bondage! At the end of the day it was commissioned to raise funds for ASH, not to raise awareness for animal welfare, and if this one image has raised a little controversy and ruffled a few feathers whilst raising a hell of a lot of money then well and good. In twelve months time it won't even be remembered!

ISDW

How old would you say that pup is? In my opinion it is a lot older than 5 weeks, by which time it would be weaned, so wouldn't be on milk anymore. So, if it was an adult dog, but a small breed, would that change people's opinion? Would it still be art?

I have absolutely no objection whatsoever to breastfeeding, it is the most natural thing in the world. However, I wouldn't think it is appropriate to publish a photo of a 4/5 year old child breastfeeding, and that dog is kind of the equivalent age. I have also never seen a woman breastfeeding with that kind of pout on her face.

I know a lot of posters think that is okay because its raised money, even if they might not necessarily agree with it, but is that not prostitution? I don't mean in a sexual sense, I mean prostitution of your values? Everything has a price?

shinikins

And yet there have been pictures published of older children breastfeeding(just google toddlers breastfeeding and the very first image i found was and Associated Content image from an article on breastfeeding older children). I wouldn't say the pup has been weaned judging by the size of it, and if if you've never seen a woman breastfeeding with a pout then you obviously never saw the pictures of Angelina Jolie breastfeeding! Its a model after all, and they don't exactly typify natural behaviour, have a llok at most models in ads an ask yourself if you would see the average woman pose like them for their holiday snaps!

I have to admit i don't see where you are coming from as regards prostitution of values, everyone has their own set of personal values and just because mine differ from yours, it does not mean that i am prostituting them.

ISDW

shinikins wrote: »

And yet there have been pictures published of older children breastfeeding(just google toddlers breastfeeding and the very first image i found was and Associated Content image from an article on breastfeeding older children). I wouldn't say the pup has been weaned judging by the size of it, and if if you've never seen a woman breastfeeding with a pout then you obviously never saw the pictures of Angelina Jolie breastfeeding! Its a model after all, and they don't exactly typify natural behaviour, have a llok at most models in ads an ask yourself if you would see the average woman pose like them for their holiday snaps!

I have to admit i don't see where you are coming from as regards prostitution of values, everyone has their own set of personal values and just because mine differ from yours, it does not mean that i am prostituting them.

If you re-read what I said, I said that some posters think its okay because its raised money, even if they don't necessarily agree with it, to me that is prostitution of their values, I didn't say everybody.

Have you ever seen an older child being breastfed in a calendar to raise money for a child's charity?

No, I didn't see the pictures of Angelina Jolie, I don't read tabloids, or the gossip mags, which I guess is where they appeared?

You think that pup is less than 5 weeks old? I think it looks huge, I have a nearly 4 month old sibe cross pup here that is about the same size.

shinikins

Exactly ISDW, to you its a prostitution of their values, but as i said, everyone has different values so they may view it differently!

I had a neighbour who breastfed her children until they were 7!! She took part in a photoshoot to improve the profile of breastfeeding in Ireland. Perhaps shocking to the general public, especially in the late 80's/early 90's but she believed what she was doing was beneficial to her children and wanted to help publicise the issue so fair play to her.

And yes, i believe the pup in the picture is less than 5-6 weeks old, hard to know of course as we don't know the breed.

Whatever yours(or indeed anyone elses) feelings on the image, it has succeeded in raising a lot of money for ASH.

ISDW

shinikins wrote: »

Exactly ISDW, to you its a prostitution of their values, but as i said, everyone has different values so they may view it differently!

I had a neighbour who breastfed her children until they were 7!! She took part in a photoshoot to improve the profile of breastfeeding in Ireland. Perhaps shocking to the general public, especially in the late 80's/early 90's but she believed what she was doing was beneficial to her children and wanted to help publicise the issue so fair play to her.

And yes, i believe the pup in the picture is less than 5-6 weeks old, hard to know of course as we don't know the breed.

Whatever yours(or indeed anyone elses) feelings on the image, it has succeeded in raising a lot of money for ASH.

I'm sorry, but now I have the image of the Bitty sketches from Little Britain in my head, and it will probably stay there all night:rolleyes: