RIRA make new years statement- Threaten to "expand its campaign in 2011"

Wolfe Tone · 03-01-2011 4:14pm

I can honestly say I have never tried to "explain away" the actions of present day militant republicans. Personally I think any analysis beyond "they are fascist idiots/banned word" is unacceptable to people who want to live under the illusion that there is no reason for their actions other than that.

Wolfe Tone · 03-01-2011 4:17pm

annoyingbeast wrote: »

they should make themselves useful and kill all the corrupt bankers and force a general election, actually do something for their country,

Interestingly they have tried to do such recently to build support.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1005/derry.html

ISAW · 03-01-2011 4:17pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes, misguided, they willfully and conveniently ignore the agreement.

Haw can anyone "willfully ignore" something? I assume you mean "do not recognise it as binding".
But that is the point isn't it?
You have to ask them what is their reason.
I assume they will say "the people of Ireland didn't vote as a whole because if they did the majority want a United Ireland and we would fight for that".

One cant just ignore them. effort has to be devoted to removing the basis they provide for violence.

dan719 · 03-01-2011 4:18pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I fully agree with the above, arresting people will not work, nor will raiding peoples homes. The answer lies through dialog imo.

We shouldn't arrest murdering scum? F*ck right off.

Wolfe Tone · 03-01-2011 4:20pm

dan719 wrote: »

We shouldn't arrest murdering scum? F*ck right off.

Good man yourself, pointless in engaging in a debate with you if you are going to post rubbish like that.

JustinDee · 03-01-2011 4:22pm

ISAW wrote: »

I suggest you read what I wrote about "reasons" and "justifications" and then come back to me on this and answer the question I asked.
Where have you any evidence that I justified recent activities of the RIRA?

Its how your posts read.
Duffing on about the 'reasons', particularly with convenient timelines, is actually irrelevant to what is happening.
The bottom line is that the people they allege to represent and know better than actually do not support their deluded fascistic methods.

Wolfe Tone · 03-01-2011 4:23pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I can honestly say I have never tried to "explain away" the actions of present day militant republicans. Personally I think any analysis beyond "they are fascist idiots/banned word" is unacceptable to people who want to live under the illusion that there is no reason for their actions other than that.

JustinDee wrote: »

Its how your posts read.
Duffing on about the 'reasons', particularly with convenient timelines, is actually irrelevant to what is happening.
The bottom line is that the people they allege to represent and know better than actually do not support their deluded fascistic methods.

Here we have an example.

dan719 · 03-01-2011 4:25pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Good man yourself, pointless in engaging in a debate with you if you are going to post rubbish like that.

What is there to debate?

The Real IRA et al are criminals, and should be treated as such. I'd prefer that they were caught in the act of endangering other's lives and all shot personally, but life in jail would be an acceptable alternative.

I see the usual apologists are out in force though, telling us it's all the Brits faults and that the nationalists community feels excluded. More like some people don't like the result of democracy (I.e. the GFA) and feel this gives the right to do what they like.

No excuses, no debates, and sure as hell no "arresting people won't work".

And I'll quickly add you back to the ignore list.

ISAW · 03-01-2011 4:26pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I can honestly say I have never tried to "explain away" the actions of present day militant republicans.

Explaining is not explaining away!is not logical

Personally I think any analysis beyond "they are fascist idiots/banned word" is unacceptable to people who want to live under the illusion that there is no reason for their actions other than that.

Do you perhaps mean to post "there is reason" instead of "there is no reason"?

or are you just one of those people who think "they are fascist idiots/banned word" is the only possible reason for their actions?
If so I don't think you are providing any solutions. all you are doing is blaming the criminals for crime and not looking into the causes of crime.

JustinDee · 03-01-2011 4:26pm

ISAW wrote: »

Haw can anyone "willfully ignore" something? I assume you mean "do not recognise it as binding"

No. I don't.
They quote "democracy" but have no obvious inkling of what it entails. They don't represent my or the country I live in's wishes.

ISAW wrote: »

But that is the point isn't it?
You have to ask them what is their reason.
I assume they will say "the people of Ireland didn't vote as a whole because if they did the majority want a United Ireland and we would fight for that"

How do you tell the deluded they are wrong to ignore what the majority on this island wants?

ISAW wrote: »

One cant just ignore them. effort has to be devoted to removing the basis they provide for violence.

I didn't say "ignore them".

Wolfe Tone · 03-01-2011 4:27pm

dan719 wrote: »

What is there to debate?

The Real IRA et al are criminals, and should be treated as such. I'd prefer that they were caught in the act of endangering other's lives and all shot personally, but life in jail would be an acceptable alternative.

I see the usual apologists are out in force though, telling us it's all the Brits faults and that the nationalists community feels excluded. More like some people don't like the result of democracy (I.e. the GFA) and feel this gives the right to do what they like.

No excuses, no debates, and sure as hell no "arresting people won't work".

And I'll quickly add you back to the ignore list.

Did arresting the provos ever work?

These people are willing to risk 14 years or more in jail to chuck what is essentially a glorified banger at a police station in the dead of night.

Any mistaken arrests or raids by the PSNI will be interpreted as harrasment, and you can understand why nationalists would think that.

Wolfe Tone · 03-01-2011 4:30pm

ISAW wrote: »

Explaining is not explaining away!is not logical

Do you perhaps mean to post "there is reason" instead of "there is no reason"?

or are you just one of those people who think "they are fascist idiots/banned word" is the only possible reason for their actions?
If so I don't think you are providing any solutions. all you are doing is blaming the criminals for crime and not looking into the causes of crime.

Personally I think any analysis beyond "they are fascist idiots/banned word" is unacceptable to people who want to live under the illusion that there is no reason for their actions other than that.

I was saying that people only want to say "they are fascists" and anything beyond that makes you a supporter. I have been in your shoes and was accused a number of times of being a dissident supporter for looking at their actions subjectively, so you have picked me up wrong.

Sand · 03-01-2011 4:38pm

@Mussolini

Did arresting the provos ever work?

Yep - the Provos were ground down over years of arrests, shootings, infiltration and accidents when putting together their own bombs. They went from a ultra-militant group unwilling to compromise whatsoever to accepting the GFA, which whatever else it was, was not a 32 county socialist republic.

If the RIRA persist in targeting people then they should be shot and/or imprisoned. Neither the Irish or British governments are required to sit down and negotiate with every drug dealer, murderer or organised crime boss.

JustinDee · 03-01-2011 4:42pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Here we have an example.

I am under no 'illusion' when I use the word 'fascistic' to describe the group's methods.
A violent attempt at usurping the wishes of the majority of this island's inhabitants is nothing else but fascistic.

Wolfe Tone · 03-01-2011 4:44pm

Sand wrote: »

@Mussolini

Yep - the Provos were ground down over years of arrests, shootings, infiltration and accidents when putting together their own bombs. They went from a ultra-militant group unwilling to compromise whatsoever to accepting the GFA, which whatever else it was, was not a 32 county socialist republic.

Did it stop them being able to bomb or carry out attacks? No, it didn't. It made them willing to negotiate. Arrests would never have completely gotten rid of the PIRA, even internment didn't work.

If the RIRA persist in targeting people then they should be shot and/or imprisoned. Neither the Irish or British governments are required to sit down and negotiate with every drug dealer, murderer or organised crime boss.

Shot? I presume you mean if they are "caught in the act"? Shoot to kill once more?

The RIRA aren't drug dealers, they are anti drugs, always have been. They shot that drug dealer in order to gain support, they wont gain grassroots support by selling drugs.

ISAW · 03-01-2011 4:45pm

dan719 wrote: »

What is there to debate?

The Real IRA et al are criminals, and should be treated as such.

the original IRA in 1916 were criminals under British law.

Ironically they were tried by military courts not normal civil ones and executed and some of their leaders executed in total abandonment of normal British procedures.

I'd prefer that they were caught in the act of endangering other's lives and all shot personally,

Indeed you might... because of the history of killing and murdering innocent people by the British establishment would not be questioned in so obvious a case.

but life in jail would be an acceptable alternative.

Indeed. Sadly however people were executed and put in gaol for life without a proper trial just because they were Irish and suspected of terrorism when in fact they were not terrorists.

I see the usual apologists are out in force though, telling us it's all the Brits faults and that the nationalists community feels excluded.

Yeah it isn't like they put Irish people in prison for decades for something they didn't do is it? Or enslaved them for being Catholic? Or prevented them from voting or gerrymandered constituencies or gave their own pals jobs and prevented the Irish from getting them or ignored their elected representatives in parliament when they brought up valid civil right cases ? And now they want to apologise for people who came about because of all this?

More like some people don't like the result of democracy (I.e. the GFA) and feel this gives the right to do what they like.

Yeah the Cheek of them. From a gerrymandered 2 out of 13 in 1922
http://electionsireland.org/results/general/ni/1922.cfm
Nationalists have 8 out of 18 in 2010
http://electionsireland.org/results/general/ni/index.cfm

http://electionsireland.org/results/general/ni/2010.cfm

There is one independent and one alliance. the next first minister could be a nationalist!

But that's democracy for you!

ISAW · 03-01-2011 4:48pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I am under no 'illusion' when I use the word 'fascistic' to describe the group's methods.
A violent attempt at usurping the wishes of the majority of this island's inhabitants is nothing else but fascistic.

Really? What is your definition of fascist then?
The violent invasion of Iraq usurping the wishes of the Iraqi people is okay? Or how about Honduras? Or The Chagos Islands? The British and Americans are fascist by your definition!

ISAW · 03-01-2011 4:51pm

dan719 wrote: »

We shouldn't arrest murdering scum? F*ck right off.

Thats what they said about the Birmingham and Guildford people and the Mc Guire family?

ISAW · 03-01-2011 4:57pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Its how your posts read.

You claiming something to be true and it actually being true are two different things! If you claim that is how my post read then Where have you any evidence that I justified recent activities of the RIRA?

WHAT post? Wher is it? where is your evidence? Ort do you think that you accusing mer of supporting terrorism is enough to take it for granted? In your justice system people may be assumend to be guilty. In mine we have to prove it and we assume innocence!

Duffing on about the 'reasons', particularly with convenient timelines, is actually irrelevant to what is happening.

How is it irrelevant? I think I have shown you that reasons don't just exist by popping out of the air! There is a history.

The bottom line is that the people they allege to represent and know better than actually do not support their deluded fascistic methods.

So what? If they are deluded then all the more reason to explain the delusion to them!
If they employ methods they learned because of or from the British military establishment all the more reason to expose this.

Hannibal · 03-01-2011 5:05pm

Arresting the PIRA never worked, they harnessed support and team spirit within the ranks behind bars. And internment actually got more people into the ranks than anything because many innocent men were locked up who were so insenced by this they joined up.
The RIRA will never have the support or the manpower the PIRA had. But this could make them more dangerous as they will be more eager to attract to attract attention and hopefully they kill as many drug dealers as possible, and anyone that says otherwise obviously doesnt live in an area that has been ruined by drugs

JustinDee · 03-01-2011 5:12pm

ISAW wrote: »

Really? What is your definition of fascist then?
The violent invasion of Iraq usurping the wishes of the Iraqi people is okay? Or how about Honduras? Or The Chagos Islands? The British and Americans are fascist by your definition!

I already gave you my reasoning as to how I find their methods fascistic.

By all means, resort to moral relativism to back up your point. This thread isn't about the John Pilger list of everything wrong in the world. If you wish to discuss any of those subjects, by all means start a thread.
This however is about the threat of a deluded minority ignoring the wishes of the people on this island.

ISAW · 03-01-2011 5:25pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I already gave you my reasoning as to how I find their methods fascistic.

yes you stated

A violent attempt at usurping the wishes of the majority of this island's inhabitants

So you apply that the the inhabitants ( ALL of them not just a majority) of the chagos Islands by the British military do you?

By all means, resort to moral relativism to back up your point. This thread isn't about the John Pilger list of everything wrong in the world. If you wish to discuss any of those subjects, by all means start a thread.

you are the one who defined fascist as

A violent attempt at usurping the wishes of the majority of this island's inhabitants

So you apply that the the inhabitants ( ALL of them not just a majority) of the Chagos Islands by the British military do you?

given the British were fascistic by your own definition is it any wonder the RIRA might have learned this behaviour from them?

This however is about the threat of a deluded minority ignoring the wishes of the people on this island.

So you are not against it as a principle just when that principle as applied by one particular group at one particular time in Ireland? it is quite alright for any group you support to do something elsewhere but not for one you don't support to do it? The British Army can adopt the same tactics as terrorists when it suits them?
Don't you think that is a bit of a double standard?

sceptre · 03-01-2011 5:26pm

I'd like a little more mutual politeness, a little more decorum and significantly more referral to the prescient issue (ie the thread topic and actual basis for discussion - RIRA threatening to extend their campaign in 2011) please.

That's the difference between a useful and productive thread and one that has little purpose - we're not here merely to increase page views.

/mod

ISAW · 03-01-2011 5:28pm

Dotsey wrote: »

Arresting the PIRA never worked, they harnessed support and team spirit within the ranks behind bars. And internment actually got more people into the ranks than anything because many innocent men were locked up who were so insenced by this they joined up.
The RIRA will never have the support or the manpower the PIRA had. But this could make them more dangerous as they will be more eager to attract to attract attention and hopefully they kill as many drug dealers as possible, and anyone that says otherwise obviously doesnt live in an area that has been ruined by drugs

Actually the original IRA hadnt really mass popular support either. It was botched British management and oppressive self seeking regimes that got the British into the position they ended up in and dragged the masses of Irish into it. That in theory could happen again if the British haven't learned their lesson. But I think they have.

ISAW · 03-01-2011 5:32pm

sceptre wrote: »

I'd like a little more mutual politeness, a little more decorum and significantly more referral to the prescient issue (ie the thread topic and actual basis for discussion - RIRA threatening to extend their campaign in 2011) please.

That's the difference between a useful and productive thread and one that has little purpose - we're not here merely to increase page views.

/mod

And is it your view that one can refer to the reason given for and history behind violence as part of any discussion on why groups continue to subscribe to violent methods? Because if you are going to discuss only a problem and ignore the cause of the problem or background reasons behind it, then there isn't really much point in discussing it is there?

JustinDee · 03-01-2011 5:39pm

ISAW wrote: »

So you are not against it as a principle just when that principle as applied by one particular group at one particular time in Ireland? it is quite alright for any group you support to do something elsewhere but not for one you don't support to do it? The British Army can adopt the same tactics as terrorists when it suits them?
Don't you think that is a bit of a double standard?

Those subjects have NOTHING to do with the thread.
Unless of course you have some exclusive news for everyone on group in question having decided to fight for all those in Iraq, Honduras and the Chagos Islands?
Nothing to do with double standards. There really isn't any other way of saying this. They hypocritically quote 'democracy' yet ignore its most basic tenets. The word 'fascistic' is used because it is an apt description of what they're doing via violent means.

DaSilva · 03-01-2011 6:00pm

It's always been the same, groups of people often think they have the ultimate solution, the definitive answer, the path to utopia. What should stand in the way of these people and achieving "the dream" when it is within reach? Nothing of course, so they will do whatever they feel necessary, a few car bombs here, a few random shootings there, utopia is getting closer.

It is so hard to attempt rational discussion about such a topic (militant separatists, militant unionists, militant capitalists, militant socialists, militant communists....) when in the back of my mind is a loud and permanent anger that just wants to shout "You morons, you idiots, you seemingly permanent anchor of social advancement, you find any excuse to kill, you are the problem and have always been.".

ISAW · 03-01-2011 6:07pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Those subjects have NOTHING to do with the thread.

Well i would argue they do.

Her eis what the mod stated

the thread topic and actual basis for discussion - RIRA threatening to extend their campaign in 2011)

i would argue the basis is related to the reasona justifications and history of violence noit just by the RIRA but by others.

Also if one is to argue RIRA violence is "wrong" then one has to explain the standard. How it wrong only; when the RIRA do it and not when the PIRA or the British Army do it?

Unless of course you have some exclusive news for everyone on group in question having decided to fight for all those in Iraq, Honduras and the Chagos Islands?

I have decided to use objective references to similar actions committed elsewhere and to compare them using similar standards and not use hypocritical standards which apply only to the RIRA.

Nothing to do with double standards.

It is if the IRA do something which is deemed "wrong" and the British Army do the same thing and that is "right"

There really isn't any other way of saying this. They hypocritically quote 'democracy' yet ignore its most basic tenets.

Most basically it is the will of the majority. The will of the majority is for a united Ireland in their view. they may be wrong but they believe that will has been expressed by the Irish people. If they ignore the will of the majority they are anti democratic yes but they see others as doing this by ignoring majority view and instituting minority veto. It is a valid way of looking at things. they see it as a Sinn Fein sellout of a minority of Irish people.

The word 'fascistic' is used because it is an apt description of what they're doing via violent means.

And applied to the British army it is equally as valid in the chagos case.

ISAW · 03-01-2011 6:17pm

DaSilva wrote: »

It's always been the same, groups of people often think they have the ultimate solution, the definitive answer, the path to utopia. What should stand in the way of these people and achieving "the dream" when it is within reach? Nothing of course, so they will do whatever they feel necessary, a few car bombs here, a few random shootings there, utopia is getting closer.

There is a significant difference between RIRA and Militant Islamists and Militant Marxists for example.

THe philosophy of Qutb ( which incidentally came about directly because the Egyptian military tortured him and he realised that the trauma of torture was enough to get people to admit to anything and beg for action to be released) and his student Bin Laden is based on trauma causing political upheaval. If it does not then the trauma isn't extreme enough. It is justifuies becase God wants them to do it. Similarly Red Brigade violence was dependent on philosophical belief in the primacy of Marxist Leninist faith.

RIRA are philosophically neither religious fundamentalist or communistic. They believe what they are doing is for the Irish nation. Now likew the Nazis some may only be along for the ride and to fill their own pockets or to get themselves into power over thugs but that isn't important from the perspective of an international or at least nationally supported political movement.

It is so hard to attempt rational discussion about such a topic (militant separatists, militant unionists, militant capitalists, militant socialists, militant communists....) when in the back of my mind is a loud and permanent anger that just wants to shout "You morons, you idiots, you seemingly permanent anchor of social advancement, you find any excuse to kill, you are the problem and have always been.".

thats not really dealing with the issue then I suggest. one should tackle the reasons given by the particular group deconstruct it and compare and contrast it with others.

DaSilva · 03-01-2011 6:49pm

ISAW wrote: »

There is a significant difference between RIRA and Militant Islamists and Militant Marxists for example.

I'm sorry, I was not trying to say they are exactly the same in all aspects, rather they are the same at their core.

ISAW wrote: »

THe philosophy of Qutb ( which incidentally came about directly because the Egyptian military tortured him and he realised that the trauma of torture was enough to get people to admit to anything and beg for action to be released) and his student Bin Laden is based on trauma causing political upheaval. If it does not then the trauma isn't extreme enough. It is justifuies becase God wants them to do it. Similarly Red Brigade violence was dependent on philosophical belief in the primacy of Marxist Leninist faith.

RIRA are philosophically neither religious fundamentalist or communistic. They believe what they are doing is for the Irish nation.

If I understanding correctly, and please feel free to tell me I have misunderstood, you are saying an important difference is Qutb is religuosly motivated, the Red Brigade philosophically motivated and the RIRA is neither because they are doing it for the Irish nation. That is fine, it makes little difference to my argument. The RIRA's cause (helping the Irish nation) is considered more important than human life.

ISAW wrote: »

Now likew the Nazis some may only be along for the ride and to fill their own pockets or to get themselves into power over thugs but that isn't important from the perspective of an international or at least nationally supported political movement.

I agree, I don't think profiteering of some Nazis was the problem for most worldwide opponents to Nazism. Was this an attempt to rationalize the RIRA? I missed the point in that case.

ISAW wrote: »

thats not really dealing with the issue then I suggest. one should tackle the reasons given by the particular group deconstruct it and compare and contrast it with others.

What?

Here is in my opinion the fundamental flaw in most armed struggles. The RIRA is saying they want to help the people of this island, and to do this they will kill people of this island.

RIRA make new years statement- Threaten to "expand its campaign in 2011"

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