RIRA make new years statement- Threaten to "expand its campaign in 2011"

ISAW

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think you'll find if you try reading a history book that English Aristos did plenty of the actual fighting and dying themselves and didn't rely 'entirely' on the Irish and others.

And I think you will find that the population of Ireland is twenty imes less than that of Britian but at times half the entire milirary was Irish! It is in the history books. I read it in The Irish Sword which is an academic journal of the Irish Military History society.

And Ill think you will find may of the nobility dead were Irish and Scottish and not all English.

From Richard III dying on the field at the Battle of Bosworth through to the titled soldiers who fought at Balaclava, the Somme etc.etc.

the tiny minority of nobles.

Here is a list
https://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.scottish/msg/c1d77b9505f98653?hl=en&dmode=source
How many are on it - ah hundred - two?

In WWI about 40,000 Irish died mostly volunteers from the Republican/Catholic/Nationalist South.

Less by proportion came from Ulster.

Put that in you "Republican Propaganda" pipe and smoke it.

ISAW

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's vastly different to what you stated earlier.

No it isn't. Paddy fights the war and Sir Patrick takes the credit and the ground rent.

BTW, I've another example for you, a handful of Earls sacrificing thousands of their serfs for personal gain, before heading to Rathmullan and jumping on a ship to France.

the Jacobite war can be viewed as one group of English aristos mostly Catholic against another group mostly Protestant. similarly the Pope militarily supported William of Orange who paraded with Papal banners in his army.
And many Irish disenfranchised Earls took their people with them.

Fratton Fred

In the 19th century, there wasn't that much difference.

You also forgot the 800,000 British people that died.

marienbad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What annoys you Dan, the fact we fought them, or the fact we kept on winning?

Lost quite a few too Fred

ISAW

JustinDee wrote: »

They have nothing to do with this and justify nothing.

Unionists and white South africans have a lot in common what with gerrymandering and so on. But the point how they have something to do with this is you were sauying your opinion was ... and you were suggesting mine was that of a barstool bore and I am just saying that the opinion you have can be look upon as no different to the people in south africa who like the Unionists to the Catholics said black people should be treated differently and discriminated against.

Moral relativism is a last ditch attempt by anonymous internetties the world over when they run out of reason/excuses/wikis to wag.

Just be straight here and tell me what moral relativism are you accusing me of now will you?

Fratton Fred

marienbad wrote: »

Lost quite a few too Fred

Ssshhh!

:-))

danbohan

marienbad wrote: »

Lost quite a few too Fred

true , especially the one fred lost with his wife who made him live in ireland

marienbad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ssshhh!

:-))

Ok, last man standing and all that applies

Fratton Fred

danbohan wrote: »

true , especially the one fred lost with his wife who made him live in ireland

sigh......

JustinDee

ISAW wrote: »

Unionists and white South africans have a lot in common what with gerrymandering and so on

You're comparing modern day Ireland (North and South) to Apartheid South Africa?? There is no relevant comparison whatsoever. None.
Thats the solid-as-water moral relativism you keep bandying about with your Pilgerlist.
I mean, the Chago Islands??? East Timor?? You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about with these stupid comparisons.

dan_d

The only thing that all these comments have in common is the use of the past tense.

WAS.

These events are all in the past, and best left there. It's all very well to say look to the past to see the future, but it's equally easy to say that things change, all the time.

There is absolutely no valid reason for deaths and murders whatsoever.Even less so, when you consider that most of what the RIRA plans to carry out will be done by lads who weren't even alive during the Troubles, let alone during anything previous to that. Nobody can justify the RIRA. It doesn't matter how many historic events you dredge up, how many statistics you call upon, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the murder of innocent people in Northern Ireland in the name of some delusional "republic".(if they had any real idea of the state of things down here, they'd be running fast in the opposite direction). Two wrongs do not make a right, under any circumstances. And God knows, they spent 30 years trying to "make the right", so to speak. It is not the way to go.People want peace, not scumbags running around playing wargames in the name of something they weren't alive for.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

In fairness if you look at both loyalist and republican killings the vast majority of loyalist attacks where simply sectarian. Kill all taigs. Whereas with the PIRA the majority of their operations where not.

The PIRA took part in LOTS of secterian murders. I only have to name them. Shankill bombing, Claudy bombing, Birmingham bombings and so on. LOTS of innocent people killed.

This argument is pathetic.

marienbad

ISAW wrote: »

Haw can anyone "willfully ignore" something? I assume you mean "do not recognise it as binding".
But that is the point isn't it?
You have to ask them what is their reason.
I assume they will say "the people of Ireland didn't vote as a whole because if they did the majority want a United Ireland and we would fight for that".

One cant just ignore them. effort has to be devoted to removing the basis they provide for violence.

I am sorry ISAW, we have no choice but to ignore them, it is pointless having a discussion with them on ''removing the basis'' of violence as their ultimate goal of a United Ireland is not in our gift or in the gift of the U.K Government, in is now vested in the hands of the people.

Like all post conflict situations we are down to the last extremists who refuse acceptance of the wishes of the people , and in this they are no different than any other fundamentalists who have a 'unique' take and vision of the ''truth''.

Then we have a further issue of numbers, how many are there ? 200 at most . I for one have a huge problem with ''negotiations'' with what are no better than criminal gangs. For the record I also have a problem with similar ''talks' with gangs in Limerick and Dublin. The only legitimacy comes from having a ballot not a gun, it is what makes us equal.

For arguments sake , say we did have talks and reached agreement , you would find that a rump would refuse to accept and we would start all over again, such is the nature of post conflict situations.

The only solution is to confront and defeat them with all the forces of law and order and I have no doubt we will be successful because like Dev and internment in the Curragh , it takes a republican to nab a republican. I have no doubts Jerry and Martin will squash this lot like bugs if ever that were to endanger the current status quo

feicim

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Let them say whatever they like and if they're found planning anything to hurt citizens of either this country or our neighbours, shoot them like the sick thugs that they are.

Shooting Fianna fail will solve nothing.

KeithAFC

The RIRA could never break the loyal ulster men. The PIRA failed to do so, and so will the RIRA.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

The PIRA took part in LOTS of secterian murders. I only have to name them. Shankill bombing, Claudy bombing, Birmingham bombings and so on. LOTS of innocent people killed.

This argument is pathetic.

The vast majority of loyalists attacks where simply sectarian.

The majority of PIRA ones where not.


They are the facts of the matter.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The vast majority of loyalists attacks where simply sectarian.

The majority of PIRA ones where not.


They are the facts of the matter.

You can have that one, the fact is the PIRA were the biggest murderers out of the lot.

Jonah42

KeithAFC wrote: »

The RIRA could never break the loyal ulster men. The PIRA failed to do so, and so will the RIRA.

Why would they want to break their fellow Irishmen?


.....


I'll get my coat.

Noreen1

ISAW wrote: »

So you are against any country having an Army?

I'm not against any country having an army for defence purposes. Given the history of our country, I'd be a very naive fool if that were the case.
On the other hand, I have serious issues with a country having an army whose intent is invasion of a sovereign nation, where that nation poses no threat to the invading nation.

An army, however, is not the same thing as the RIRA.
The old IRA fought to free their country, and resist an occupying force. They fought for civil rights for an oppressed people. Nationalists have made great strides towards equality in Northern Ireland, hence the motivation is no longer the same.

It is a fact that years of violence in Northern Ireland has caused the Unionists to forget/refuse to acknowledge because of (rightly or wrongly) perceived wrongs perpetrated against them.

I've read local histories, detailing the injustices that were carried out in my area, and against some of my ancestors. In all honesty - they made my blood boil.

However, you cannot blame people who have had their home in Northern Ireland for generations for the murdering campaigns of the likes of the Black and Tans, any more than some Loyalists should blame every Nationalist/Republican/Taig for injuries and deaths in their Community.That will only lead to more bitterness on both sides.

This is why I believe that further violence will achieve absolutely nothing except more pointless deaths. It's not that I don't recognise the injustice of Ireland having been invaded in the first place. It makes me as angry as anyone else to think of what people suffered. Another thing that annoys me is the fact that some Unionists refuse to recognise, or at least acknowledge, that any injustices were perpetrated by Britain.
Having said that, if the Nationalist community indulges in the same blinkered approach, by engaging in violence, they are refusing to acknowledge - in the exact same manner as the more extreme Unionists - that both sides perceive themselves as defending their own communities.

Only when both Communities recognise - publicly - that wrongs were committed by both sides - will we have true peace, and real, mixed communities, where your choice of home does not depend on whether your neighbours are loyalists or nationalists.

I think that's a goal worth pursuing.

Wolfe Tone

Noreen, the motivation is the very same. If you don't understand that you have no idea what the dissidents are about.

junder

HET 'will question 'Kingsmills

Date: 20 August 2010

By Philip Bradfield

THE PSNI's Historical Enquiries Team will question suspects about the Kingsmills massacre in which 10 Protestant workmen were slain by the IRA, it was reported last night.

On January 5, 1976 the IRA killed the textile workers as they returned home in a minibus from work at Kingsmills in south Armagh.

The IRA gang stopped the minibus and lined the men up before firing over 100 bullets. An eleventh man survived.

Yesterday, victims campaigner Willie Frazer said he was pleased with progress in the HET investigation into the atrocity.

He met HET representatives earlier this week in what he described as "a hot and heavy" meeting with relatives of the dead.

"I felt very happy after the meeting and it is not often I do," he said last night.

"They did say they would be questioning suspects."

During the meeting he said HET told relatives that:


•The IRA gang responsible has been ballistically linked to at least 35 other murders, possibly many more, and over 100 other terror incidents.

•The massacre had to be planned so far in advance that it could not be considered a retaliatory action for loyalist murders of Catholics in the vicinity only days before.

•The gunmen lined their victims up facing the minibus and shot them in the back.

•136 rounds were fired into the victims from two feet away by 11 armed men.

•The gunmen's leader ordered them to finish off their victims on the ground with shots to the back of the head.

•The leader of IRA unit spoke with a clear English accent.

•A workmate of the victims set them up for the bloodbath.

•Two republicans captured using some of the same weapons some years later were never questioned about Kingsmills.

•Suspects for the 10 murders will be questioned.

Mr Frazer said. "They said someone very close to the workmates had to have been involved in setting them up.

"We suggested that the man with the English accent could have been (English soldier] Robert Nairac and they said they would take it on board. They did not rule it out.

"They said they had suspicions about another individual, but we have never heard of an IRA man in this area who spoke with such an accent."

A UVF gang which slaughtered the Miami Showband in July 1975 near Banbridge was also led by an English soldier, a survivor has told the News Letter, but no clear connections have ever been made.

Mr Frazer said they did not wish to find Capt Nairac implicated in Kingsmills but that there were also many questions as to why the security forces took so long to arrive.

"The HET investigators were quite open that there were many unanswered questions," he said.

Police took 25 minutes to arrive and Bessbrook army base was very close by, with a quick reaction unit.

In other murders in the same area only days before soldiers flooded the area very quickly in comparison, with helicopter support, he said.

"Where was the security in that area at that time – it can't be explained?" he asked.

A spokesman for HET said: "We are currently investigating the Kingsmills murders and had a meeting with some of the families on Wednesday, August 18.
Reply

Wolfe Tone

Why do you reply so often with articles which are not relevant really to the thread?


I could just as easily stick stuff up about the Ballymurphy massacre.

Mike 1972

dlofnep wrote: »

The nationalist community see Ireland as a single entity, and aspire to see an end to partition. They have not accepted partition as a permanent scenario. What the nationalist community is divided on is how to end partition. The majority have agreed to the roadmap provided via the Good Friday Agreement. A minority of the nationalist population feel that the Good Friday Agreement will not end partition, and as such - feel disillusioned and feel it is neccessary to take up arms. A little bit of context goes a long way.

To an extent thats all well and good but there are other communities in Northern Ireland besides the Nationalists.

Liam Byrne

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Noreen, the motivation is the very same. If you don't understand that you have no idea what the dissidents are about.

The main difference is that there was an agreed vote by the whole island, something that hadn't happened before.

That a bigoted organisation would give the population two fingers and tell them that they don't accept that and will keep making threats and try to intimidate, maim and murder those people who they supposedly want to unite in a single state is - in the most softened terms - counter-productive.

If people are that bigoted and that prone to violence I wouldn't want to live in a country that they eventually managed to create.

If anything, "Republican" activists have made me less republican due to the fact that I have to distance myself from the minority who think it's OK to engage in violence and bombing and other criminal activities.

marienbad

The nationalist community see Ireland as a single entity, and aspire to see an end to partition. They have not accepted partition as a permanent scenario. What the nationalist community is divided on is how to end partition. The majority have agreed to the roadmap provided via the Good Friday Agreement. A minority of the nationalist population feel that the Good Friday Agreement will not end partition, and as such - feel disillusioned and feel it is neccessary to take up arms. A little bit of context goes a long way

Yes a little bit of context does go a long way, to call those who do not except the Good Friday agreement roadmap as a minority is stretching the English language a bit, how many supporters do they have ? 1000 ? Less ? That is some context you are providing.

junder

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Why do you reply so often with articles which are not relevant really to the thread?


I could just as easily stick stuff up about the Ballymurphy massacre.

Since people are trying to claim that the pira were / are nonsectarian I think the articules are very relevant. Parhaps you can try and tell how the kingsmill murders were nit sectarian and were a legitimate operation in the armed struggle?

Wolfe Tone

junder wrote: »

Since people are trying to claim that the pira were / are nonsectarian I think the articules are very relevant. Parhaps you can try and tell how the kingsmill murders were nit sectarian and were a legitimate operation in the armed struggle?

If you look back I said the majority of IRA actions where not sectarian.

The majority of loyalist where.

Is that not true?


If they wanted to be sectarian they could have stuck a 1000lb bomb in the shankhill.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The main difference is that there was an agreed vote by the whole island, something that hadn't happened before.

That a bigoted organisation would give the population two fingers and tell them that they don't accept that and will keep making threats and try to intimidate, maim and murder those people who they supposedly want to unite in a single state is - in the most softened terms - counter-productive.

If people are that bigoted and that prone to violence I wouldn't want to live in a country that they eventually managed to create.

If anything, "Republican" activists have made me less republican due to the fact that I have to distance myself from the minority who think it's OK to engage in violence and bombing and other criminal activities.

The context may be different, but the motivations remain the same.


Out of interest, what are your opinions on the men of 1916, Wolfe Tone etc?

junder

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If you look back I said the majority of IRA actions where not sectarian.

The majority of loyalist where.

Is that not true?


If they wanted to be sectarian they could have stuck a 1000lb bomb in the shankhill.

That cuts both ways, if loyalists wanted to just kill Catholics they could have killed thousands fact both factions were sectarian no if or buts or equivocation, I suggest 'political murder in northern ireland' to read or though I should warn you, it will rob you of your goodies and baddies mentality. The troubles were grim, they were not are not a comic book adventure. At the height of the troubles, if stumbled into the wrong area chances are you were dead, and yes the pira were just as quick to shot Protestant walking into thier area.

Wolfe Tone

junder wrote: »

That cuts both ways, if loyalists wanted to just kill Catholics they could have killed thousands fact both factions were sectarian no if or buts or equivocation, I suggest 'political murder in northern ireland' to read or though I should warn you, it will rob you of your goodies and baddies mentality. The troubles were grim, they were not are not a comic book adventure. At the height of the troubles, if stumbled into the wrong area chances are you were dead, and yes the pira were just as quick to shot Protestant walking into thier area.

Well often that what they did, they didnt have clear targets did they? Hard to tell who is in the IRA right? So any taig will do.