Water Meters - €500m down the drain??

djpbarry

lyndonjones wrote: »

And do you think the necessary changes will be made?

Only if people demand same from their representatives.

lyndonjones wrote: »

This is Ireland for goodness sake, as stated by a poster earlier in the discussion a SLA would need to be defined and implemented and also a Water Regulator appointed.

So outline the above when canvassers come knocking on your door in the run-up to the general election.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

no problem paying for water if

1/ it is not turned off in winter
2/ they stop putting flouride in it
3/ they reduce the chlorine as much as possbile
4/ they publish quaterly independent quality reviews online

if they want us to pay , they need to meet the standards of a service first.

wes

djpbarry wrote: »

By what measure of “worth”?

Thats a good question, and something that would need to established. For example with the water infrastructure, some sort of agreed metrics, between the customer and government, as to what level of service can be expected would be great. Right now we have no real way to measure the level of service we receive in general, and all I have is a general perception of the government not doing its job right.

Manach

djpbarry wrote: »

Elsewhere? Despite popular belief, Irish residents do not pay particularly high levels of tax.

Whilst I'm naturally skeptical about that, the following link does support your claim. http://www.photius.com/rankings/tax_burden_country_ranks_2009.html

lyndonjones

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hospitals. Schools. Whatever. Places it's not currently going because it's being spent on the provision of water. If the same proportion of the taxes I currently pay continue to be spent on the provision of water, then yes: that would be double taxation.

However, why would that happen? Why would central revenue be spent on the provision of water, when the provision of water was being paid for at source?

In the analogy I described, are you suggesting that once people started paying train fares, the exchequer would also continue to pay those same fares? How much money did you pay for food last year? How much for petrol? How much for electricity? How much for tapwater?

As you stated a portion of Taxation collected went to provision of "so-called" free water so yes I have paid for the provision of tap water.

How much did I pay on...

Food - Too much with VAT increase
Petrol - Too much with Carbon Tax increase
Electricity - Again too much

I mentioned that I would be in agreement, to a degree, if a flat rate for water usage was implemented but this revenue would not be ring fenced for water supply orientated projects so we might never see improvements on the water supply service.

lyndonjones

djpbarry wrote: »

Only if people demand same from their representatives.
So outline the above when canvassers come knocking on your door in the run-up to the general election.

Don't worry I will but as we all know when power is achieved those points "taken on board" at the door step by the canvassers are forgotten about!

nuac

Domestic water should be metered and paid for, with appropriate allowances for minimum quantities and those unable to pay.

djpbarry

lyndonjones wrote: »

As you stated a portion of Taxation collected went to provision of "so-called" free water so yes I have paid for the provision of tap water.

But you, and everyone else, have not paid enough to cover the cost of providing said water and maintaining the infrastructure.

lyndonjones wrote: »

Don't worry I will but as we all know when power is achieved those points "taken on board" at the door step by the canvassers are forgotten about!

Make sure they don’t forget.

lyndonjones

djpbarry wrote: »

But you, and everyone else, have not paid enough to cover the cost of providing said water and maintaining the infrastructure.
Make sure they don’t forget.

Don't worry I won't but as you know all promises are just lip service

oscarBravo

lyndonjones wrote: »

As you stated a portion of Taxation collected went to provision of "so-called" free water so yes I have paid for the provision of tap water.

How much did I pay on...

Food - Too much with VAT increase
Petrol - Too much with Carbon Tax increase
Electricity - Again too much

You're carefully and deliberately avoiding my point.

You pay for food when you buy it in a shop. You pay for petrol when you pump it into your car. You pay for electricity when the bill arrives every two months. When did you last get a bill for water?

I mentioned that I would be in agreement, to a degree, if a flat rate for water usage was implemented but this revenue would not be ring fenced for water supply orientated projects so we might never see improvements on the water supply service.

The only possible way to ring-fence monies paid for water is to charge for its usage. All tax collected must, by law, be paid into central exchequer funding to be disbursed according to the government's wishes. This isn't true of the money you pay for electricity (and wasn't, even when there was a state-owned monopoly).

The only possible way to ring-fence funds for re-investment in water supply is to charge directly for the use of that water in the first place.

As for a flat rate: I live with one other person in a house that doesn't have a hosepipe. My next door neighbour has seven kids and a garden hose. Why should we both pay the same amount for water?

Where's the incentive not to squander precious treated water if there's a flat rate charge? If there was a flat rate charge for electricity, how many people do you think would turn their lights off?

snoop09

can anyone give me the specs for water meter installation,

i.e how far down in the ground they should me, is it 300mm?

i looked up doelg website and can't find anything

Thanks

flutered

vast areas of this country has water meters, also most of the country has water rates, so how about equality for all, also the water distrbution systm requires serious upgradeing, anyone who has holidayed in lanzrote should know the value of water.

galwayrush

I live in a country area, where it costs aprox €1500 to build a water tank, won't take too long for that to pay for it's self.A local farmer, he has quite a large number of cattle and horses had a bill of €3700 for 3 months supply, he is now boring his own well at a cost of approx €10000, as a result he will save a small fortune in a short period of time.
Lots of people in the country areas will be telling the water suppliers to feck off with their metered charges.

Dannyboy83

OP,

Your mistake is that you are attempting to apply common sense to the policies of this government.

You are expecting a service to be delivered, when this is nothing more than a money grabbing exercise.

Macha

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

OP,

Your mistake is that you are attempting to apply common sense to the policies of this government.

You are expecting a service to be delivered, when this is nothing more than a money grabbing exercise.

A strange point of view, considering the service is being delivered. The issue is that we are not currently paying for it.

Dannyboy83

Macha wrote: »

A strange point of view, considering the service is being delivered. The issue is that we are not currently paying for it.

We already pay for the currently delivered services to the Central Government, through taxation, all goes into the exchequer.

There is no new service being delivered here.
Simply a money grab.

Macha

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

We already pay for the currently delivered services to the Central Government, through taxation, all goes into the exchequer.

There is no new service being delivered here.
Simply a money grab.

Given that our deficit for 2010 alone was €18.74 billion, it's quite easy to see that we aren't actually paying enough to cover the costs of government, which includes providing drinking water to residences free of charge.

mickc009

are there any ways of reducing the amount of water we use? iwas recently cut off due to weather and it took about 7 litres for the average flush- i have heard if its yellow let it mellow etc... but what about using rainwater. Can you connect a waterbut to your cistern- obviously i like big butts and i cannot lie!

Pete_Cavan

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

We already pay for the currently delivered services to the Central Government, through taxation, all goes into the exchequer.

There is no new service being delivered here.
Simply a money grab.

The problem is we are not paying for water directly and paying through general taxation means there is no incentive to conserve water. Paying directly for water will mean people are less likely to waste it, which will also reduce the cost of providing the service.

Also, unless something is done water consumption will increase which would mean we have to build more infrastructure. If this is paid for by Central Government the opportunity cost is other services Central Government should be providing, such as hospital and schools. If consumption remains constant or decreases we only have to maintain existing infrastructure which would be much cheaper than building new reservoirs, pumping stations, etc.

mickc009 wrote: »

are there any ways of reducing the amount of water we use? iwas recently cut off due to weather and it took about 7 litres for the average flush- i have heard if its yellow let it mellow etc... but what about using rainwater. Can you connect a waterbut to your cistern- obviously i like big butts and i cannot lie!

Flushing perfectly clean water down the toilet is a waste of what is a valuable resource. You can get a rainwater harvesting system installed but it would be quite expensive to retrofit.

As I said in post #27, IMO there should be grants for installing rainwater harvesting systems for non-potable water in the same way as there are grants for solar panels and other renewable heating sources. They should also update the Building Regs to include rainwater harvesting in all new houses, if this was widespread it would also help to alleviate flooding as there would be less storm water run off which ends up in a river or lake.

Macha

mickc009 wrote: »

are there any ways of reducing the amount of water we use? iwas recently cut off due to weather and it took about 7 litres for the average flush- i have heard if its yellow let it mellow etc... but what about using rainwater. Can you connect a waterbut to your cistern- obviously i like big butts and i cannot lie!

The best method I know is the simple installation of one of these:



They also come in white, which looks much better.

You simply press the button as soon as you judge that enough water has been flushed through the system, cutting off the flow. It's easy to install, simple to use and flexible (and no I don't own shares)

Apologies if this is off topic a bit.

cavedave

Here are some figures

1. the generally agreed amount of free water per person per day is between 40 and 50 liters. "in Flanders everyone has the right to a minimal supply of 15 m³ (41 liter/capita/day) of free water per person per year."

2. In England and Wales our drinking water costs around 2p for 10 litres.

3. Irish houses have a lot of people in them. And there are about 1.3 million houses in Ireland.

4. Irish people use 150 liters each "91% of Irish people have no idea how much water they use, despite using on average, over 150 litres a day".

5. Metering drops usage about 20%.

So one back of the envelope a persons chargableusage of 80 liters (150->120 when metered - 40 free as a right) should be about 16 pence a day (or 20 cent) or say 70 euro a year from each person.

mickc009

what is it and how does it work

mickc009

he recycling options are there any cheap ways of reusing rain water


what about t

cavedave wrote: »

Here are some figures

1. the generally agreed amount of free water per person per day is between 40 and 50 liters. "in Flanders everyone has the right to a minimal supply of 15 m³ (41 liter/capita/day) of free water per person per year."

2. In England and Wales our drinking water costs around 2p for 10 litres.

3. Irish houses have a lot of people in them. And there are about 1.3 million houses in Ireland.

4. Irish people use 150 liters each "91% of Irish people have no idea how much water they use, despite using on average, over 150 litres a day".

5. Metering drops usage about 20%.

So one back of the envelope a persons chargableusage of 80 liters (150->120 when metered - 40 free as a right) should be about 16 pence a day (or 20 cent) or say 70 euro a year from each person.

dan_d

If the money paid in water charges is ringfenced and put directly back into fixing the leaks, then it is worth paying.

If (As I expect it will be), it's simply added to the tax take of the State, and used to pay public service salaries and all the various other things that our taxes are used for - then it's money down the drain.

For me, there's no in-between argument on this.Nothing to do with responsible usage. We are a country with a huge average rainfall every year.There are a number of things we could do, obviously, to improve our usage - such as harvesting rainwater etc - but the only use water taxes should have is to pay for the upgrade of the system, and nothing else.

oscarBravo

dan_d wrote: »

Nothing to do with responsible usage.

You don't think we should use water responsibly, or you don't think water charges should be used to encourage us to use it responsibly?

Essexboy

Look at the practicalities of installing meters which won't be done by the brightest and best.
I know of 3 retail units which have only 2 water meters between them. Why? because the council connected 2 businesses to the same meter! It only came to light when one occupant moved out and the landlord, a local councillor, began receiving the bills.
Expect to hear similar stories once any meter installation programme begins.

Browners90

Are these water meter certs worth the paper their written on.

Unemployed plumber.
51 years of age.
Cant get a a straight answer from any of the training bodies

full info here:

http://irishplumbing.blogspot.com/
would love to hear from anybody.

OurLadyofKnock

The only reason our water is being meter is so when it is privatised the tax payers have paid for the infrastruture and the service providers get it al for free. It is a complete scam if you have not figured this out by now.

Watermetering is totally uncalled for or needed in Ireland. It is just one more thing for the government to wash their hands of and major corporations to bleed us dry.

If you believe this "water shortage" bull**** then you need help. It is just a money making scam for big business and nothing else.

djpbarry

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

The only reason our water is being meter is so when it is privatised the tax payers have paid for the infrastruture...

Taxpayers paying for the provision of public services. Imagine that.

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

...and the service providers get it al for free.

So service providers should pay for the infrastructure and the treatment and distribution of water at no charge to the end-users?

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Watermetering is totally uncalled for or needed in Ireland.

Perhaps you have not noticed the chronic lack of investment in Ireland’s water distribution network?

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

If you believe this "water shortage" bull**** then you need help.

You don’t believe that water consumption has increased in Ireland considerably over the last couple of decades? You don’t see the need for the provision of increased capacity to cope with this extra demand?

Harps

Haven't read over the past four pages but will do when I get the time. Basically my opinion is simply that if we're to expect a high quality water service then we should pay for it. As someone with a decent knowledge of the costs involved in water treatment I dont see how people can demand a high quality of service while paying nothing for it. I could go into the details but the simple fact is that drinkable water is expensive to provide yet people expect it for free simply because 'it rains a lot'.

Obviously we're already paying for water through other taxes but if a specific charge was brought in and directly channelled to the treatment of water, as well as the fact people would conserve more water if taxed on it, then it'd become a far more efficient and manageable industry.

The distribution network is obviously chronically under-invested in and unless theres extra money going to it then theres no way to adequately bring the system up to date. Its always going to be a problem unless we suddenly come up with millions from nowhere to sort out the 100 year old leaking pipes.