The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

Reesy

Naikon wrote: »

If you want to drive power from locally run companies to places like Tesco, go ahead. You are doing the country a disservice. The pub situation is akin to corner shops. How could a corner shop ever compete with the likes of Walmart/Tesco? They can't. Different economies of scale. You can't compare a family run shop or pub to Monoliths like Tesco. If you dislike globalisation practices, maybe you should reconsider giving your money exclusively to large multi-nationals. Self autonomy is a good thing.

OK, let's compare your apples with Irish apples: O'Brien's, an Irish off-licence chain, versus one of those Irish companies that owns a number of Irish pubs. Consistent price ratio for a bottle of Stella: about 4x. Yes, pubs cost money to run, and there's value added by them serving the beer in a glass in a nice place, sure. But when I saw pubs changing hands for many millions more than the price of the building, I knew then that being a pub landlord in the right place was a licence to print money. This must end, and much as I'm fond of pubs, I want some balance, FFS.

And don't even get me started on how the pubs rip us off royally for minerals / soft drinks...

OPENROAD

Whatever the reasons and yes the cost of doing business here is expensive, the prices of pints are far too expensive here.

Also I have never got the whole concept of the unique Irish pub that seems to exist, though in fairness that is based on pubs here in Dublin, but terrible selections beer.

Haven't gone to a pub here for years and would have no real interest in doing so, would rather buy a beer I actually like and have it at home.

blondie83

I remember when I was doing my masters in DCU the pub used to be empty nearly every night (found this very odd after UCD!). There weren't really any specials on most night, so people would just go outside the college to the local (cheaper) pub instead...except for Tuesdays. On Tuesdays the pub would be packed, stuffed full, no hope of a seat but a great atmosphere because of all of the people. The reason? €3 Tuesday - every pint three euro! Quite simply, if it is cheap people will come.

On the plus side though I was in the Bailey off Grafton street meeting a friend recently. I walked in and ordered a lime and water for myself. Barman smiled, handed over the drink, and when I went to hand over money said "ah no we don't charge for that, hardly costs us anything". Thought that was nice, especially as I wasn't ordering drink or anything - been backing drinking there with friends a few times because of that

HellFireClub

Naikon wrote: »

You are comparing oranges to apples here. The prices reflected in pub prices does not account just for the beer in the glass. If you want to drive power from locally run companies to places like Tesco, go ahead. You are doing the country a disservice. The pub situation is akin to corner shops. How could a corner shop ever compete with the likes of Walmart/Tesco? They can't. Different economies of scale. You can't compare a family run shop or pub to Monoliths like Tesco. If you dislike globalisation practices, maybe you should reconsider giving your money exclusively to large multi-nationals. Self autonomy is a good thing.

You're making the point yourself without realising it. I can buy a tub of Brylcreem in Tesco for 4.15 Euro. I can go to the small Centra store or pharmacy near where I live and buy the same product for 4.89 Euro. There is obviously a premium associated with the convenience of being able to buy it locally as opposed to having to go to a large supermarket.

The argument that you seem to be defending on here, is that I can buy the Brylcreem for 4.15 Euro in Tesco, but if I want to be able to buy the same item in my family run local Centra, I should be prepared to pay five times the Tesco price, which would be 20.75 Euro for the same product???

Is this starting to sound stupid to you yet???

HellFireClub

blondie83 wrote: »

On the plus side though I was in the Bailey off Grafton street meeting a friend recently. I walked in and ordered a lime and water for myself. Barman smiled, handed over the drink, and when I went to hand over money said "ah no we don't charge for that, hardly costs us anything". Thought that was nice, especially as I wasn't ordering drink or anything - been backing drinking there with friends a few times because of that

Must be 'cos your goodlooking... Like meself! :D:D

mikemac

I will give credit to my local pub

3 euro for any pint from Monday to Thursday.
Not an amazing offer but it's a good try

However...........I don't drink (well the occasional glass of wine) and I'm charged 5.40 for a rock shandy. I'd expect to pay that most anywhere.

Nobody can tell me that's good value!
In fact, I'd say minerals are more overpriced then most any pint. And considering a gang needs to get their designated driver to the pub in rural areas, it's not realy making it attractive.
Lots of people go to pubs and get ripped off on minerals

blondie83

HellFireClub wrote: »

Must be 'cos your goodlooking... Like meself! :D:D

I wish!

Naikon

HellFireClub wrote: »

You're making the point yourself without realising it. I can buy a tub of Brylcreem in Tesco for 4.15 Euro. I can go to the small Centra store or pharmacy near where I live and buy the same product for 4.89 Euro. There is obviously a premium associated with the convenience of being able to buy it locally as opposed to having to go to a large supermarket.

The argument that you seem to be defending on here, is that I can buy the Brylcreem for 4.15 Euro in Tesco, but if I want to be able to buy the same item in my family run local Centra, I should be prepared to pay five times the Tesco price, which would be 20.75 Euro for the same product???

Is this starting to sound stupid to you yet???

A pub is not a supermarket. Likewise, a cinema with it's associated operational costs is not comparable to a legal movie download site. I won't defend overpriced pubs, but you need to consider there are differences in the costs associated with the upkeep of a pub. I am sure it's not costly to keep crates of beer in a corner. Does dunnes/tesco have beer taps? Basically, a pub isn't a supermarket. The price is reflected by this mere fact. You can't really compare them imo.

Dtoffee

Publicans are in business to make money, they see their customers as a means to an end. I used to regularly go out to various pubs and have cut right down due to the cost ...... its a major rip off and if they are going out of business then its up to them to sort out their own mess.

If you dont like the price then don't buy and if enough people don't buy, then the price will come down.

TheUsual

My first ever pint was a pint of Smithwicks for £1.20 on Camden Street in Dublin. And that was a while ago, but you could get drunk and buy a bag of chips for £10. And get the last bus home with the change.

The problem in between then and now is that pubs were changing hands between investors and children of the original pub-owners for stupid money. The customers kept coming, the prices being paid for the pubs went up and for a while the price of a pint went up and up without people noticing.
The new breed of pub managers lost sight of keeping their customers happy and went looking for stupid profit margins, and in the process - pissing people off.

Then I think they invested their new money into property - houses and other pubs, and the huge loans they now had needed to be paid by Irish people buying booze.
So you get the ridiculous situation where Irish prices for a pint get close to those in Paris, Madrid and Stockholm.
Look at Galway and the recent closing of Cuba Bar/club and Harvest off-licences which was caused by stupid gambling on development property and not on focusing on keeping your pub clients happy.

fonecrusher1

feelingstressed wrote: »

I will give credit to my local pub

3 euro for any pint from Monday to Thursday.
Not an amazing offer but it's a good try

However...........I don't drink (well the occasional glass of wine) and I'm charged 5.40 for a rock shandy. I'd expect to pay that most anywhere.

Nobody can tell me that's good value!
In fact, I'd say minerals are more overpriced then most any pint. And considering a gang needs to get their designated driver to the pub in rural areas, it's not realy making it attractive.
Lots of people go to pubs and get ripped off on minerals

5.40 for a rock shandy? Oh dear. How much is a 2 Ltr bottle of rock shandy in a supermarket? Maybe 2 euro?

So thats about 50cent for a pint of rock shandy in a supermarket & 5.40 in your local. Quite the mark up.:D

:rolleyes:

OPENROAD

TheUsual wrote: »

My first ever pint was a pint of Smithwicks for £1.20 on Camden Street in Dublin. And that was a while ago, but you could get drunk and buy a bag of chips for £10. And get the last bus home with the change.

The problem in between then and now is that pubs were changing hands between investors and children of the original pub-owners for stupid money. The customers kept coming, the prices being paid for the pubs went up and for a while the price of a pint went up and up without people noticing.
The new breed of pub managers lost sight of keeping their customers happy and went looking for stupid profit margins, and in the process - pissing people off.

Then I think they invested their new money into property - houses and other pubs, and the huge loans they now had needed to be paid by Irish people buying booze.
So you get the ridiculous situation where Irish prices for a pint get close to those in Paris, Madrid and Stockholm.
Look at Galway and the recent closing of Cuba and Harvest off-licences which was caused by stupid gambling on development property and not on focusing on keeping your pub clients happy.

Madness and something thats not unique just to pints.

Naikon

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I normally buy my beer from Super value or Dunnes, just because they are local. But luckily for me, they are both Irish owned.

And if you think for a second I will spend my money on an overpriced product out of some sense of loyalty, you must be joking.

I take it you don't go to gigs or the cinema too often. Just because you can download a film legally for **** all, does not negate the fact a cinema has to charge the customer more.

HellFireClub

Naikon wrote: »

A pub is not a supermarket. Likewise, a cinema with it's associated operational costs is not comparable to a legal movie download site. I won't defend overpriced pubs, but you need to consider there are differences in the costs associated with the upkeep of a pub. I am sure dunnes don't have too much to keep crates of beer in a corner. Basically, a pub isn't a supermarket. The price is reflected by this mere fact. You can't compare them imo.

Equally a small family run Centra isn't a supermarket either but they can still sell at a price that the market is prepared to pay, albeit it's a more expensive price, if I'm stuck for shower gel or a can of Lynx deodorant, I know I'm going to pay a premium to get it in a convenience store, that's what I'm paying the premium for, the convenience! I'm not going to expect to pay five times the price I'd pay in the supermarket thought for one reason only, which is that the market won't pay 30 Euro for a can of Lynx deodorant that has a market value of between 3-6 Euro!

Your understanding of business overheads isn't grounded in reality at all. The commerical rates bill for a large supermarket alone is hundreds of thousands of Euro a year. The pub on the other hand might have a rates liability of 10-20K a year, which is still a lot of money but it's around 10% of what the supermarket will be paying in commercial rates. How do you explain the price of alcohol in the supermarket being much lower even though the overheads are substantially higher???

The answer is obvious, because the overheads are shared amongst a larger pool of people/customers per year. If they increased their prices, they'd lose market share and would probably end up in the same situation as the publicans, trying to gouge as much as they can out of an ever decreasing pool of customers, because the customers are buying what they need elsewhere, where there is better value.

ntlbell

Naikon wrote: »

A pub is not a supermarket. Likewise, a cinema with it's associated operational costs is not comparable to a legal movie download site. I won't defend overpriced pubs, but you need to consider there are differences in the costs associated with the upkeep of a pub. I am sure it's not costly to keep crates of beer in a corner. Does dunnes/tesco have beer taps? Basically, a pub isn't a supermarket. The price is reflected by this mere fact. You can't compare them imo.

I think everyone understands that there's a big difference to buying a drink in an off-license/supermarket and a pub and that there's a cost in involved to the publican.

The issue is about balance, no one is expecting the publican to sell a bottle of miller for 75c. People have a lot less money to spend comapred to recent years and publicans have to adjust to that like every other buisness that is currently suffering not calling for the goverment to step in and "help" them, they need to help themselves. I'm more than happy to "support" the pubs around me when they have something to offer me.

A nice choice of half decent drinks at a _reasonable_ price, qualified barmen who take pride in thier work, Somewhere I can enjoy a drink and have a chat with friends or read the paper without listening to *BANG* BANG* *BANG* (I don't mean gun shots :P )

They need to get creative, they need to adapt and change and stop whining about losing custom when they're doing _nothing_ to bring them back.

Why should I go out and spend my hard earned money "supporting" the local publican when he shows no interest in what I want? and over charges me for the previlage?

fonecrusher1

Naikon wrote: »

A pub is not a supermarket. Likewise, a cinema with it's associated operational costs is not comparable to a legal movie download site. I won't defend overpriced pubs, but you need to consider there are differences in the costs associated with the upkeep of a pub. I am sure it's not costly to keep crates of beer in a corner. Does dunnes/tesco have beer taps? Basically, a pub isn't a supermarket. The price is reflected by this mere fact. You can't really compare them imo.

So your saying you think because of the overheads associated with running a pub it justifies charging 4.50 euro for something they get maybe for 1.10/1.20 per unit in bulk? Lets just say bottles of bud.

HellFireClub

blondie83 wrote: »

I wish!

The Bailey is where all the D18 posh dames hang out, usually fairly good looking as well! :cool::cool::cool:

Cantona's Collars

We've had the days where punters were lined up at the bar like cattle at a trough.Waving €50 notes clamouring for attention from the barman.Pubs creamed it,we never questioned the price.
Those same pubs are now closed or very near it.Money is tight with people and they're now looking for value.As I stated earlier the pubs in my town that are doing any regular trade are the ones focused on the customer,the so called 'places to be seen' are empty.Beer was too expensive and tasted terrible but people lapped it up because you were nobody unless you were there-no more though.
A well run pub with a decent pint and friendly staff will survive-they even do midweek specials and concessions for pensioners.The days of greed being fed by eager drinkers are gone and publicans may adapt,raising prices to counteract falloff in trade isn't the answer.Sell it cheaper and sell more is the way.The binge drinking argument is a myth in my opinion-I don't see it being any worse than when I was younger.It seems to be just an excuse to control prices which blinkered people in the trade are sticking too.
Go to the pub spend €20 and get 4 pints or go to a supermarket and spend €20 to get out of your mind drunk,it negates the argument over higher drink costs in pubs to promote responsible drinking.

Naikon

HellFireClub wrote: »

Equally a small family run Centra isn't a supermarket either but they can still sell at a price that the market is prepared to pay, albeit it's a more expensive price, if I'm stuck for shower gel or a can of Lynx deodorant, I know I'm going to pay a premium to get it in a convenience store, that's what I'm paying the premium for, the convenience! I'm not going to expect to pay five times the price I'd pay in the supermarket thought for one reason only, which is that the market won't pay 30 Euro for a can of Lynx deodorant that has a market value of between 3-6 Euro!

Your understanding of business overheads isn't grounded in reality at all. The commerical rates bill for a large supermarket alone is hundreds of thousands of Euro a year. The pub on the other hand might have a rates liability of 10-20K a year, which is still a lot of money but it's around 10% of what the supermarket will be paying in commercial rates. How do you explain the price of alcohol in the supermarket being much lower even though the overheads are substantially higher???

The answer is obvious, because the overheads are shared amongst a larger pool of people/customers per year. If they increased their prices, they'd lose market share and would probably end up in the same situation as the publicans, trying to gouge as much as they can out of an ever decreasing pool of customers, because the customers are buying what they need elsewhere, where there is better value.

Look, you can't compare a publically traded monolith, to a small family run pub. end of story. Massive corporate liabilities are offset by the prospect of well paid lawyers. A small limited company is not comparable to a massive publically traded one. How many times do I have to state this?

TheUsual

ntlbell wrote: »

Why should I go out and spend my hard earned money "supporting" the local publican when he shows no interest in what I want? and over charges me for the previlage?

Because the Irish pub-managers these days see you as a talking fat wallet with no choice but to come into their pub.
They have lost the plot as a group and have decided to shut down rather than to offer deals or compete with each other, I suspect they have price fixing agreements between each other so that there is no real competition for you and me.

Also a lot of them have so much debt that maybe they have no choice to lower the prices.

It's a stand off, they would rather close their doors, than drop their prices.

sdanseo

There's too many pubs. It's that simple. If a few of them die off, not only will it be more peaceful for local residents come 1am but it'll even out the industry.

HellFireClub

zerks wrote: »

We've had the days where punters were lined up at the bar like cattle at a trough.Waving €50 notes clamouring for attention from the barman.Pubs creamed it,we never questioned the price.
Those same pubs are now closed or very near it.Money is tight with people and they're now looking for value.As I stated earlier the pubs in my town that are doing any regular trade are the ones focused on the customer,the so called 'places to be seen' are empty.Beer was too expensive and tasted terrible but people lapped it up because you were nobody unless you were there-no more though.
A well run pub with a decent pint and friendly staff will survive-they even do midweek specials and concessions for pensioners.The days of greed being fed by eager drinkers are gone and publicans may adapt,raising prices to counteract falloff in trade isn't the answer.Sell it cheaper and sell more is the way.The binge drinking argument is a myth in my opinion-I don't see it being any worse than when I was younger.It seems to be just an excuse to control prices which blinkered people in the trade are sticking too.
Go to the pub spend €20 and get 4 pints or go to a supermarket and spend €20 to get out of your mind drunk,it negates the argument over higher drink costs in pubs to promote responsible drinking.

The other day I was reading an article in an Irish newspaper and this representative from the on-license end of the drinks industry was interviewed and he was hopping mad that people were drinking at home before coming out to a pub! He said people were drinking at home til' an hour before last orders, coming into a pub locked and were being refused service on "health and safety" grounds. He further argued that people should not be drinking at home, where their drinking could not be "effectively supervised"!!!

Have you ever heard such bullsh*t in your life?!? As if you would be allowed to drink any less if you had been sitting in the pub for the last few hours?!?!? These guys are seething at the public because they dare have a few drinks now before they leave their homes because they can't afford to pay the prices that these guys want, so the publicans now seem to be having a snot on themselves if a group turn up at a pub an hour before last orders and order a pint, they kick them out!!!

Sometimes I think that publicans are just born as inherently mean bast*ards who are beyond any kind of self analysis or understanding as to their customers.

Naikon

HellFireClub wrote: »

The other day I was reading an article in an Irish newspaper and this representative from the on-license end of the drinks industry was interviewed and he was hopping mad that people were drinking at home before coming out to a pub! He said people were drinking at home til' an hour before last orders, coming into a pub locked and were being refused service on "health and safety" grounds. He further argued that people should not be drinking at home, where their drinking could not be "effectively supervised"!!!

Have you ever heard such bullsh*t in your life?!? As if you would be allowed to drink any less if you had been sitting in the pub for the last few hours?!?!? These guys are seething at the public because they dare have a few drinks now before they leave their homes because they can't afford to pay the prices that these guys want, so the publicans now seem to be having a snot on themselves if a group turn up at a pub an hour before last orders and order a pint, they kick them out!!!

Sometimes I think that publicans are just born as inherently mean bast*ards who are beyond any kind of self analysis or understanding as to their customers.

Then shop elsewhere. Not every pub is out to destroy your wallet. Most of the horror stories I have read here are mostly applied to central Dublin establishments.

starbelgrade

Naikon wrote: »

Look, you can't compare a publically traded monolith, to a small family run pub. end of story. Massive corporate liabilities are offset by the prospect of well paid lawyers. A small limited company is not comparable to a massive publically traded one. How many times do I have to state this?

You didn't have to state it once. We're not imbeciles.

Most pubs - even the small, family run ones - are part of the VFI. Together, they have massive purchasing power. It's not like they are minnows in the equation. They just need to pull their weight more.

Fitzerb

longhalloween wrote: »

Why does it cost 5e for a bottle of beer or a pint in a pub??

Im sure they buy for the same price as off licences or tesco, sure the profit margin must be massive, even with the overheads.

You are not making a correct comparison. 95% of Pubs do not buy their bottled beer from Diageo, they only buy kegs from Diageo. Bottled beers are supplied through various Irish License Wholesalers.
The Wholesaler can buy the bottled beer cheaper in Tesco than he can buy if from Diageo, so the publican is not making this alleged massive mark up on bottled beer. I am not sure what the situation is with Kegs. Supermarkets are selling bottled beer as a lost leader, just to get footfall through the shop. Its not healthy and will cost us a significant loss of employment for Irish people in the industry. I know of one town (Mountrath) that had 25 pubs 10 years ago, It now has 2, so there will be closures because of the change in habits and the industry has to wake up that the business model has to change. Pubs who are now offering quality food at a good price can hit back if more people dine out.
We are now close to a crazy position that we can buy beer cheaper than milk in Tesco, I wonder if Tesco started to sell tobacco below cost would the Government intervene, there is a need to stop the Multiple trade from selling at below cost on beers, it is going to cost us jobs and will inflate an already binge drinking culture.

mikom

Naikon wrote: »

Look, you can't compare a publically traded monolith, to a small family run pub. end of story. Massive corporate liabilities are offset by the prospect of well paid lawyers. A small limited company is not comparable to a massive publically traded one. How many times do I have to state this?

And in this case............

Eighty-five jobs are to go in Galway City with the closure of a number of businesses, all part of the Jona Group.

The venues, which include a number of pubs, an off-licence and a nightclub, will go into voluntary liquidation.

In a statement released last night company director John Grealish blamed the economic downturn and rental costs for their closures.

Staff at the Cellar Bar, Cuba nightclub, Bar 903, and the Harvest off-licence chain were given the news on Saturday.

Sales had plummeted in recent years and since 2008 costs were scaled back through pay cuts, redundancies and a reduction in working hours.

Mayor of Galway City Michael Crowe said support is there for those affected.

"To lose a job in any circumstances is difficult," Mr Crowe said. "Certainly if there is anything we can do at local authority level… we won't be found wanting."

The remaining businesses in the Jona Group are unaffected.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/jobs-blow-for-galway-487771.html#ixzz1A1QWcZ7N

HellFireClub

Naikon wrote: »

Look, you can't compare a publically traded monolith, to a small family run pub. end of story. Massive corporate liabilities are offset by the prospect of well paid lawyers. A small limited company is not comparable to a massive publically traded one. How many times do I have to state this?

Yes you can compare them, and you can also compare their overheads and see very clearly that the bigger organisation has higher overheads, but has more customers that those overheads get spread across. The business financial models are completely different, but they are comparable.

There are only two facts relevant here:

(1) No other industry in Ireland is as ruthless when marking up their products as the publicans in this country.

(2) No other industry does as much moaning about lack of custom and trade, despite the fact that they are behind the highest gross profit margins being applied to retail consumer products in this country. Show me any other business that is currently moaning about having no customers but is yet still marking up their products 4-5 times what those products cost them?!?!?

There is clearly a relationship between (1) and (2) above and the sooner these goons start waking up to it and stop p*ssing everyone off with their whinging, the sooner they might have viable businesses to run.

Fitzerb

HellFireClub wrote: »

The Bailey is where all the D18 posh dames hang out, usually fairly good looking as well! :cool::cool::cool:

The dames or the pints ?

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

You didn't have to state it once. We're not imbeciles.

Most pubs - even the small, family run ones - are part of the VFI. Together, they have massive purchasing power. It's not like they are minnows in the equation. They just need to pull their weight more.

Hello again

Just a "FYI" The VFI is not a purchasing organisation - I actually dont think they are allowed by law, If they were you would certainly see a reduction in the price of drinks.

fonecrusher1

Suggestions to turn things around for pubs.

- lower prices by at least 20% (obviously i mean pubs that are charging silly money for a pint ie; e5.20)
- free food. Sausagerolls, sandwiches, cocktail sausages every hour.
- Don't charge for water or water with cordial.
- Don't piss people of by charging them 3 - 5 euros for a pint of coke/fanta/shandy whatever
- Don't piss loyal customers off by charging them an entry fee on New years eve.

Just compromise. Re-earn people's loyalty.