The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

listermint

kleefarr wrote: »

Yeah, where is the competition in having a minimum price.
May be soon they be able to turn the pubs into coffee shops ala Amsterdam. :rolleyes:

"The government cannot interfere in the market"

Enda Kenny / Michael Noonan 2015

Flex

Geuze wrote: »

Bill published:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2015/12015/b12015d.pdf

Thanks for this. Yet another thing Ive just spotted in this bill outside of minimum pricing is regulation of promotions of alcohol, specifically the below.

Can I take it from that that it effectively means price reduction promotions in off-trade premises are likely to be prohibited? How will that work, if the minimum price of 40% abv whiskey (ie. Jameson) is going to be €22.50, but has a retail price of €30 it will never be allowed to be sold for less than €30, despite being well over the minimum price threshold? Presume itll also end '6 for €50', etc. wine sales?

Regulations relating to sale and supply of alcohol products

(a) prohibiting or restricting a person from selling or supplying, or causing to be sold
or supplied, an alcohol product at a reduced price or free of charge to any person
on the purchase by that person, or by any other person, of—
(i) one or more other alcohol products (whether of the same or a different kind),
or
(ii) any other product or service,
(b) prohibiting or restricting a person from selling or supplying, or causing to be sold
or supplied, an alcohol product during a limited period at a price less than that
being charged for the alcohol product on the day before the commencement of the
limited period,

Cletus van_damme

Flex wrote: »

Thanks for this. Yet another thing Ive just spotted in this bill outside of minimum pricing is regulation of promotions of alcohol, specifically the below.

Can I take it from that that it effectively means price reduction promotions in off-trade premises are likely to be prohibited? How will that work, if the minimum price of 40% abv whiskey (ie. Jameson) is going to be €22.50, but has a retail price of €30 it will never be allowed to be sold for less than €30, despite being well over the minimum price threshold? Presume itll also end '6 for €50', etc. wine sales?

All drinks promotions will be gone, getting a taster of a new beer in a pub would even be out. No price reductions can be applied to alcohol, so no discount for bulk buying (for the public at least), I would also say you won't be able to use store points or gift tokens to buy alcohol.

Pretty sure we already have some of these laws in place, it's just that they are never enforced.

Cletus van_damme

Flex wrote: »

Thanks for this. Yet another thing Ive just spotted in this bill outside of minimum pricing is regulation of promotions of alcohol, specifically the below.

Can I take it from that that it effectively means price reduction promotions in off-trade premises are likely to be prohibited? How will that work, if the minimum price of 40% abv whiskey (ie. Jameson) is going to be €22.50, but has a retail price of €30 it will never be allowed to be sold for less than €30, despite being well over the minimum price threshold? Presume itll also end '6 for €50', etc. wine sales?

All drinks promotions will be gone, getting a taster of a new beer in a pub would even be out. No price reductions can be applied to alcohol, so no discount for bulk buying (for the public at least), I would also say you won't be able to use store points or gift tokens to buy alcohol.

Pretty sure we already have some of these laws in place, it's just that they are never enforced.

listermint

I have a feeling this is all under the guise of wetherspoons coming into the market.

I can guarantee that is solely what it is about and nothing else.


The stats simply do not back up the fact that there is below cost selling in supermarkets.

This has to be do with Wetherspoons cocktail offers or offers of mixers and splits etc.



This government is a bunch of self interest charlatans.



There is no free market here Varadkar is a stooge.

Flex

listermint wrote: »

I have a feeling this is all under the guise of wetherspoons coming into the market.

I can guarantee that is solely what it is about and nothing else.


The stats simply do not back up the fact that there is below cost selling in supermarkets.

This has to be do with Wetherspoons cocktail offers or offers of mixers and splits etc.



This government is a bunch of self interest charlatans.



There is no free market here Varadkar is a stooge.

Interestingly Wetherspoons allow you to get a spirit plus a free mixer, and get a double of that spirit for an extra €2.

Presumably the free mixer and double for an extra €2 will be prohibited by this

Corcaigh84

Was buying a Christmas present of some local gin for my sister today in one of the only two independently run offies left in Cork city, and asked the Russian owner what his opinion was on this minimum pricing.

He said he remembers when the USSR broke up in 1991, and the bottle of vodka went up in price for whatever reason. He said it wasn't a case of 'daddy will drink less', but 'the children will eat less'.

Cletus van_damme

Flex wrote: »

Interestingly Wetherspoons allow you to get a spirit plus a free mixer, and get a double of that spirit for an extra €2.

Presumably the free mixer and double for an extra €2 will be prohibited by this

The mixer would be allowed as it's non alcoholic, the second spirit would have to be at the same price as the first.

thefloss

thefloss wrote: »

Was buying a Christmas present of some local gin for my sister today in one of the only two independently run offies left in Cork city, and asked the Russian owner what his opinion was on this minimum pricing.

He said he remembers when the USSR broke up in 1991, and the bottle of vodka went up in price for whatever reason. He said it wasn't a case of 'daddy will drink less', but 'the children will eat less'.

So the child obesity epidemic has been solved. Very clever.

Cletus van_damme

listermint wrote: »

I have a feeling this is all under the guise of wetherspoons coming into the market.

I can guarantee that is solely what it is about and nothing else.


The stats simply do not back up the fact that there is below cost selling in supermarkets.

This has to be do with Wetherspoons cocktail offers or offers of mixers and splits etc.



This government is a bunch of self interest charlatans.



There is no free market here Varadkar is a stooge.

I think that this new legislation will be used to take credit for ongoing decrease in the amount of alcohol being consumed.

When a review is done and it's announced a success then they can bring in minimum prices in pubs, not high enough to hurt the VFI but if they set a minimum of €4 it would hurt Spoons.

Cletus van_damme

Basil3 wrote: »

So the child obesity epidemic has been solved. Very clever.

No, that will be solved by introducing minimum pricing for food.

aziz

Cletus van_damme wrote: »

No, that will be solved by introducing minimum pricing for food.

No, the sugar tax is next

-=al=-

A minimum pricing on sugary drinks would be a good one.

Or maybe charge more for water so it would cost more to make your own homebrew.... Oh wait... :pac:

senordingdong

This could be a double edged victory for the government. There's a good chance that the EU week block it, and if that happens, they get to tell their buddies that they tried, all without upsetting the electorate before the election.

Pipe dream I suppose.

Radharc na Sleibhte

Geuze wrote: »

As said already, several times, the supplier/distributor/retailer share the extra price, with some extra VAT as well.

Thank you so much your highness. Sorry my dyslexia is a burden on you. I'll be sure to pay more attention and never leave the thread again and spend all day on it to make sure I get all the information. How stupid of me to ask a question on a public forum.

Geuze

Flex wrote: »

Interestingly Wetherspoons allow you to get a spirit plus a free mixer, and get a double of that spirit for an extra €2.

Presumably the free mixer and double for an extra €2 will be prohibited by this

I haven't read the Bill in full, but as the min price of a measure of spirits 35.5 ml is approx 1.15, then JDW are perfectly free to sell a double as 2 euro extra onto the single price, which is typically 3.95.

Or is there something in the Bill I'm missing?

Geuze

listermint wrote: »

I have a feeling this is all under the guise of wetherspoons coming into the market.

I can guarantee that is solely what it is about and nothing else.


The stats simply do not back up the fact that there is below cost selling in supermarkets.

This has to be do with Wetherspoons cocktail offers or offers of mixers and splits etc.

I can't see how this min price would affect any JDW price in RoI.

Indeed, in the UK, JDW are always complaining about the unfair [in their eyes] competition from supermarkets.

This min price would make off-trade relatively dearer, and so make JDW relatively cheaper.

Example:

4.3% can of beer, 50cl

Min price =(500)(4.3%)(0.789) = 1.70 approx, up from maybe 1.00-1.20 now, no special case deals anymore

JDW pub pint = from 2.50

Sure if I'm forced to pay 1.70 at home, and JDW pub is just 80c more, I may as well go to the pub.

darkpagandeath

Geuze wrote: »

Bill published:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2015/12015/b12015d.pdf

With no regards for actual legality how much has this cost so far ? Would it not be correct to actually wait to see if it was legal to interfere with the free EU market ?

Geuze

Cletus van_damme wrote: »

The mixer would be allowed as it's non alcoholic, the second spirit would have to be at the same price as the first.

Where in the Bill does it say that?

Flex

Geuze wrote: »

I haven't read the Bill in full, but as the min price of a measure of spirits 35.5 ml is approx 1.15, then JDW are perfectly free to sell a double as 2 euro extra onto the single price, which is typically 3.95.

Or is there something in the Bill I'm missing?

It was in my original reply to you posting the bill. I spotted in section 21, I think, regulation of promotions of alcohol, specifically the below;

Regulations relating to sale and supply of alcohol products

(a) prohibiting or restricting a person from selling or supplying, or causing to be sold
or supplied, an alcohol product at a reduced price or free of charge to any person
on the purchase by that person, or by any other person, of—
(i) one or more other alcohol products (whether of the same or a different kind),
or
(ii) any other product or service,
(b) prohibiting or restricting a person from selling or supplying, or causing to be sold
or supplied, an alcohol product during a limited period at a price less than that
being charged for the alcohol product on the day before the commencement of the
limited period,

I asked if hypothetically the above meant price reduction promotions in off-trade premises are likely to be prohibited and how would that work. For example if the minimum price of Jameson (700ml 40% abv) is going to be €22.10 or so, but it has a retail price of €30 will it now be unlawful to be sold for less than €30 (like in Tesco now, its €23 for a Christmas promotion), despite being well over the minimum price threshold? And also if it would end '6 for €50', etc. wine sales or O'Briens '6 craft beers for the price of 5', for example? Seemed it would also apply to the Wetherspoons offer on spirits; get a Redbreast for €7.75 but double it for just an extra €2 (rather than just another €7.75)

rubadub

Cletus van_damme wrote: »

The mixer would be allowed as it's non alcoholic, the second spirit would have to be at the same price as the first.

If this was true then half pints of beer would have to be priced at exactly half the price of a full pint -and I really doubt this is going to be the case.

Geuze

Flex,

I see your point.

I'd have to think about it more.

But it seems that any retail deal that causes the per unit price to fall below the min price is illegal.

So can = 2.00 is okay, but 8 cans for 12 euro would be illegal.

Geuze

section (a) above does seem to affect JDW offering the second measure for 2.00 extra.


But hold on, we are presuming that a double is two products............

If we assume that a double shot is one product, then (a) doesn't apply?????

Cletus van_damme

Geuze wrote: »

Flex,

I see your point.

I'd have to think about it more.

But it seems that any retail deal that causes the per unit price to fall below the min price is illegal.

So can = 2.00 is okay, but 8 cans for 12 euro would be illegal.

I think deals would be disallowed even if it did not bring the price below the minimum.

So if the price for one can is above the minimum, say €2.50, if you buy a slab you have to pay €2.50 X 24. Getting 10 or 20 cent off for buying a slab, even if the overall price was still above the minimum, would not be allowed. That's my interpretation of it, could be wrong.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

With no regards for actual legality how much has this cost so far ? Would it not be correct to actually wait to see if it was legal to interfere with the free EU market ?

Yes it would be correct, but you are assuming a level of competence amongst politicians and indeed the media (who are not asking these questions) that doesn't exist.

To my mind, regardless of the arguments for or against minimum pricing, to be spending time and money on this bill in the knowledge that it is probably going to get shot down by the EU is a sackable offence. If you are so grossly incompetent that this is how you go about your business, you really shouldn't be in government.

rubadub

Geuze wrote: »

If we assume that a double shot is one product, then (a) doesn't apply?????

Yes, just like I said about half pints and pints, I doubt they will have half pints forced to be half the price of full ones.

At worst wetherspoons would have to reword the offer, so instead of saying buy 1 shot get one for €2 extra they would simply have to list both prices.

Cletus van_damme wrote: »

So if the price for one can is above the minimum, say €2.50, if you buy a slab you have to pay €2.50 X 24.

Many mulitpack trays have different barcodes on the cans, so would be viewed as a different product. If they are identical and the law does not allow discounts then I expect supermarkets would not stock single cans and just have the big trays. And so people would buy more which usually results in them drinking more. So this could be another uninteneded consequence, just like I predict the drinking of spirits will increase.

Muahahaha

Looking at the figures here I think if these measures come in the Govt. will have inadvertently created a black market for booze. Like if you look at what is happening with cigarettes right now- Customs reckon 25% of cigarettes are black market sold. Why? Because persistent year after year 50c increases on a pack of 20 meant that Ireland got way out of sync of other EU members for the cost of cigarettes. So now what we have (virtually in the space of 5 or 6 years) is a thriving black market where criminal gangs buy smokes at €1.50 a packet in the Canaries and ship them to Ireland to be sold at €5 a packet. For the customer it is a 50% saving on buying them in a shop and for the gang it is a 350% profit per packet sold.

Now apply the same market conditions to beer. To brew a pint of beer costs about 30c, under these new rules to buy one 500ml can will cost €2. That gives the criminal gang the exact same opportunity as they already have with cigarettes, i.e they can sell 500ml beers for €1 (half the govt price) but still make 300% gross profit by brewing for 30c a pint. Part of the cigarette black market is sellers calling to buyers houses every week to sell a sleeve (10 boxes) of cigarettes. Its not hard to see how the same gangs could also add beer to their inventory and make another 300% profit on that too. Government policy created the black market cigarette trade so theres no reason why it can't create similar for alcohol too.

Personally I used to homebrew but gave it up because of a lack of time. But if these new measures come in I'll be going back to it and I'd also expect there'll be an explosion in the practice which has already become quite popular in the last few years.

edit: report on this topic on RTE+1 right now

goose2005

Muahahaha wrote: »

Looking at the figures here I think if these measures come in the Govt. will have inadvertently created a black market for booze. Like if you look at what is happening with cigarettes right now- Customs reckon 25% of cigarettes are black market sold. Why? Because persistent year after year 50c increases on a pack of 20 meant that Ireland got way out of sync of other EU members for the cost of cigarettes. So now what we have (virtually in the space of 5 or 6 years) is a thriving black market where criminal gangs buy smokes at €1.50 a packet in the Canaries and ship them to Ireland to be sold at €5 a packet. For the customer it is a 50% saving on buying them in a shop and for the gang it is a 350% profit per packet sold.

Now apply the same market conditions to beer. To brew a pint of beer costs about 30c, under these new rules to buy one 500ml can will cost €2. That gives the criminal gang the exact same opportunity as they already have with cigarettes, i.e they can sell 500ml beers for €1 (half the govt price) but still make 300% gross profit by brewing for 30c a pint. Part of the cigarette black market is sellers calling to buyers houses every week to sell a sleeve (10 boxes) of cigarettes. Its not hard to see how the same gangs could also add beer to their inventory and make another 300% profit on that too. Government policy created the black market cigarette trade so theres no reason why it can't create similar for alcohol too.

Personally I used to homebrew but gave it up because of a lack of time. But if these new measures come in I'll be going back to it and I'd also expect there'll be an explosion in the practice which has already become quite popular in the last few years.

edit: report on this topic on RTE+1 right now

No point in beers - too bulky. Cheap spirits will be the way to go. Fill up a lorry in Bulgaria or Hungary or Latvia and bring it over.

Custardpi

A can of beer is a good bit heavier than a packet of cigarettes though so has higher logistics costs as a product. I can maybe see an increase in black market sales of spirits but I don't think the profits to be made from selling beer cheaper would be that great when you factor those costs in.

goose2005

Cletus van_damme wrote: »

All drinks promotions will be gone, getting a taster of a new beer in a pub would even be out. No price reductions can be applied to alcohol, so no discount for bulk buying (for the public at least), I would also say you won't be able to use store points or gift tokens to buy alcohol.

Pretty sure we already have some of these laws in place, it's just that they are never enforced.

they already exist for baby formula