The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

goose2005

aziz wrote: »

No, the sugar tax is next

what about the red meat tax? Sure it's for your own good, and it'll get more people into restaurants, or something.

goose2005

Cletus van_damme wrote: »

Drinking is already decreasing and will probably continue to do so even without the new legislation, minimum pricing will probably cause a further decrease, but not to the intended people.

This legislation is supposedly to target problem drinkers, the obvious problem is that increasing the price of a drug does not make it less addictive. It might make the occasional drinker not bother getting a four pack of beer but it won't do anything to a person with a problem from drinking and odds are they are the ones who he doctor ends up treating.

If anything, it might make it worse. I've seen beggars counting out coins to buy a €12 spirit bottle from tesco, would an increase to €28 really stop them drinking? More likely they'd turn to mouthwash, home distilled, methylated spirits, etc. Or maybe illegal stuff.

goose2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes it would be correct, but you are assuming a level of competence amongst politicians and indeed the media (who are not asking these questions) that doesn't exist.

To my mind, regardless of the arguments for or against minimum pricing, to be spending time and money on this bill in the knowledge that it is probably going to get shot down by the EU is a sackable offence. If you are so grossly incompetent that this is how you go about your business, you really shouldn't be in government.

But getting elected is all about meaningless posturing. As someone once said of constituency clinics - "a third of people want you to do something impossible, a third of people want you to do something illegal, and the rest are just lonely." With this, the government can say, "Sure we're on your side, we did our best, dem up in Brussels shafted ye again."

rubadub

goose2005 wrote: »

If anything, it might make it worse. I've seen beggars counting out coins to buy a €12 spirit bottle from tesco, would an increase to €28 really stop them drinking?

the 12 euro 37.5% 700ml tesco spirits will be increasing to 20.71euro, not the 28euro the media said (based on 40%, but most are 37.5), the media who are at best ignorant, but I am guessing were deliberately misleading.

At first I thought the idea of black market beer is ridiculous, too bulky as said, but you have to remember excise duty is not increasing! the people pocketing the extra are the retailers, as I keep on saying. This is the reason those seemingly in favour of the plan should object to it. I have not heard one reasonable excuse from the pro-camp about this madness.

Black market beer is a definite possibility, since there need not be any unpaid excise duty involved in the "smuggling" it can be imported legitimately! with all excise paid and you could still make a very healthy profit selling it on the blackmarket by just avoiding the ridiculous plan to only have a min price.

So it will be extremely easy to get it into the country if you are all above board and paying excise, there is no need to risk full on smuggling, just the risk of reselling below min price. Customs are only worried about excise, they have no idea what you plan to sell it on for.

So if a offie can sell a can for a profit for 1euro, then a wholesaler can obviously get it in, excise paid, for a fair bit less. Now he can sell to a dodgy offie, who could sell to regulars off the books for 1euro, he can gain by not having to pay VAT too. We already have shady "beer dealers" who will sell later than the ridiculous 10pm deadline, and deliver it to you. The government created these beer dealers, fucking morons. Now they can totally clean up selling beer at the minimum price.

Also nobody should really care much about these potential dodgy dealers, if excise is paid there is no loss to the government, which is the usual complaint -though they may miss out on vat, so the beer dealers could afford to sell even less.

I would trust shady beer before shady spirits. There have been cases of counterfeit beer, but I have heard of none here, except maybe passing off kegs as other ones. There have been recent deaths due to counterfeit spirits though.

A 24euro case of 4.3% beer will increase by about 17euro, so the going rate could easily be a round 25 or 30euro and the sellers can actually make more profit than before, and all excise paid!

Muahahaha

goose2005 wrote: »

No point in beers - too bulky. Cheap spirits will be the way to go. Fill up a lorry in Bulgaria or Hungary or Latvia and bring it over.

Custardpi wrote: »

A can of beer is a good bit heavier than a packet of cigarettes though so has higher logistics costs as a product. I can maybe see an increase in black market sales of spirits but I don't think the profits to be made from selling beer cheaper would be that great when you factor those costs in.

Yeah I've no doubt criminal gangs will try spirits first because they're easier to distribute. But ultimately what the market wants is beer that costs half the amount of the supermarkets. In the last 5 years the cannibis market has changed from one that was primarily based on importing to one that is now primarily based on underground grow houses operating within Ireland- drug dealers have cut out the middlemen abroad by producing here rather than taking the risks of illegal importation. No reason why the same can't happen with beer, in fact it might even happen in the same underground farms and industrial estates where they already grow cannabis. Their production space is already plainly illegal there so if theres good profits to be had then they might begin to use it for brewing cheap beer too.

In any case it doesn't bother me what happens, I'll likely go back to brewing my own again. I should have stuck with it to be honest but in any case if the result of the EU case with Scotland goes against the consumer next week I'll be planning a few 2016 homebrews for about 30 cents a pint. Mates will be over the moon again as they seemed to drink most of it last time out

Smidge

I watched the report there on Prime time.
Okay, so I KNEW there was an increase coming etc but holy mother of god, have this government lost their collective tiny minds?????

If a couple have ONE can of beer each of an evening(which is considered LOW consumption so wouldnt be a statistic of being a drain on the resources, hospitals etc so no excuse there)they are going to be paying ............
SEVEN HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FOUR EURO EXTRA per year.

On 2 cans!!!!!!!

So if a couple want to have a drink at home on a Friday and Saturday after work(3 cans on a Friday each and 4 cans on a Saturday each, which wouldnt be a mental amount of alcohol by anyones standard)to wind down and watch a bit of telly(because the CANT afford to go the pub) will be paying an extra
SEVEN HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FOUR EURO EXTRA per year.

And as for the fool of an expert they had on who claims that this increase will stop alcoholics from being alcoholics....well he should be ashamed of himself for spouting nonsense he knows is utter bull.

He gave and example of an alcoholic that drinks 6 litres of cider(I would imagine that is 3 x 2 litres)that currently costs €10 will now cost €35

If he thinks that everyone in Ireland is simple and that that kind of price increase will magically stop someone from being an alcoholic and them having a St Paul on the road to Damascus moment, he is not only disingenuous, but down right dangerous.

If that increase goes ahead, I forsee a sharp increase in crime to match

rubadub

goose2005 wrote: »

they already exist for baby formula

and they are easy to get around, look in bargain alerts and you will see people using lidl & aldi vouchers to buy gift tokens in tesco (its against tesco policy but lots do it), a 50euro token for 40euro. Then you have effectively "laundered" the token and can use the gift voucher to buy baby forumla or tobacco etc, since the gift voucher is not regarded as a promotion.

Smidge wrote: »

He gave and example of an alcoholic that drinks 6 litres of cider(I would imagine that is 3 x 2 litres)that currently costs €10 will now cost €35

35euro would buy 6 liters of 7.4% cider. If he can get that for a tenner I want to know where. More likely he believed the media bull**** with overstated prices and based it on 6% cider.

If he knows were to get 6L of 6% cider for a tenner I still want to know!

Azrel

goose2005 wrote: »

If anything, it might make it worse. I've seen beggars counting out coins to buy a €12 spirit bottle from tesco, would an increase to €28 really stop them drinking? More likely they'd turn to mouthwash, home distilled, methylated spirits, etc. Or maybe illegal stuff.

Or theft to fund their addiction. Probably resulting in a rise in burglaries, hold-ups, street crime, etc.

goose2005 wrote: »

No point in beers - too bulky. Cheap spirits will be the way to go. Fill up a lorry in Bulgaria or Hungary or Latvia and bring it over.

Don't worry, the government will take care of that with plenty of media propaganda and scaremongering horror stories such as "MAN DIES AFTER CONSUMING RAT POISON IN ILLEGAL ALCOHOL", or some other rubbish. "ANY ALCOHOL BOUGHT OUTSIDE IRELAND (WHERE WE CAN'T TAX AND CONTROL YOU THROUGH OUR NANNY STATE AGENDA) IS HIGHLY DANGEROUS AND WILL KILL YOU!!!!!"

Smidge

rubadub wrote: »

and they are easy to get around, look in bargain alerts and you will see people using lidl & aldi vouchers to buy gift tokens in tesco (its against tesco policy but lots do it), a 50euro token for 40euro. Then you have effectively "laundered" the token and can use the gift voucher to buy baby forumla or tobacco etc, since the gift voucher is not regarded as a promotion.



35euro would buy 6 liters of 7.4% cider. If he can get that for a tenner I want to know where. More likely he believed the media bull**** with overstated prices and based it on 6% cider.

If he knows were to get 6L of 6% cider for a tenner I still want to know!

You can get 5% in Tesco at €3.79 a 2 litre so that comes to €11.37 so he was slightly undervaluing it for effect.....but still...

edit: I just wanted to add that like most people, Im not a big drinker. Might go out a couple of times a year and maybe a couple of times a month, have a few at home. This kind of BS sickens me tbh, as it hits people that CANT afford to go out.
I can take or leave it tbh but I shouldn't have to because I have now been priced out of affording it.
Almost €800 quid a year may be nothing for these buffoons, but it is to me. And a lot of others I'd imagine

Muahahaha

rubadub wrote: »

At first I thought the idea of black market beer is ridiculous, too bulky as said, but you have to remember excise duty is not increasing! the people pocketing the extra are the retailers, as I keep on saying. This is the reason those seemingly in favour of the plan should object to it. I have not heard one reasonable excuse from the pro-camp about this madness.

Black market beer is a definite possibility, since there need not be any unpaid excise duty involved in the "smuggling" it can be imported legitimately! with all excise paid and you could still make a very healthy profit selling it on the blackmarket by just avoiding the ridiculous plan to only have a min price.

So it will be extremely easy to get it into the country if you are all above board and paying excise, there is no need to risk full on smuggling, just the risk of reselling below min price. Customs are only worried about excise, they have no idea what you plan to sell it on for.


A 24euro case of 4.3% beer will increase by about 17euro, so the going rate could easily be a round 25 or 30euro and the sellers can actually make more profit than before, and all excise paid!

All good points but I don't think it would be possible to import it en masse and get through customs. AFAIK you can import as much alcohol as you like from another EU country provided it is for personal use. So a transit van full of wine can get through but if you tried to import a 40ft container full of beer then Customs would likely be all over it, regardless of the exise paid. The sheer volume gives them adequate reason to believe it is for resale without a license to sell. Customs are part of Revenue and they have even wider powers than the Gardai and are not afraid to use them. They can seize anything they want and then they operate a 'guilty until you prove yourself innocent' policy; all the legal advantages lie with them and you're up against it in a legal sense.

The weight of beer would mean that shipping it in would also be cost ineffective. I reckon if a black market for beer does establish it'll be brewed and then distributed on Irish soil. Granted though it is also more difficult to distribute though- you can't fit a 24 can crate of beer under your jacket like you can with a sleeve of cigarettes. But if there is potential profits of 300% to be made then someone will likely try it.

Another cottage industry that will also boom is booze cruises to France. Only this time last year Conor Pope wrote an article that went like this
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/drink/booze-cruise-conor-pope-s-winter-wine-shopping-spree-1.2017723

Our Consumer Affairs Correspondent Conor Pope and cameraman Bryan O’Brien have undertaken a daring assignment. Their mission: spend €500 taking the Stena Line ferry from Rosslare to Cherbourg, in France, blow €1,000 on wine, save €2,000 in tax

So now with the new rules coming to make all wine here cost minimum €8.50 a bottle there is going to be even higher savings going to France than there was in that article above. His follow up article might read 'Spend €500 on Ferry to France, Spend €1000 on Wine, Save €2,500 on tax'

Minimum pricing will make trips to France even more attractive than they are now. If a single trip can save you €2500 and you get a mini holiday to France to boot then why not.

rubadub

Azrel wrote: »

Or theft to fund their addiction. Probably resulting in a rise in burglaries, hold-ups, street crime, etc.

Ah sure that's nonsense, everybody knows that muggers & burglars spend their money on de heroin , never once has illgotten money gone towards legal addictive recreational drugs. I know for a fact the muggers set their dole money aside for booze and cigarettes, they would never dream of spending the mugging money on it!

Smidge wrote: »

You can get 5% in Tesco at €3.79 a 2 litre so that comes to €11.37 so he was slightly undervaluing it for effect.....but still..

This 2L will go to 7.89euro, so barely over twice the price, not 3.5 times. I am just pointing out to be wary of these complete bullshitters in the media.

But you could turn it against him, he is saying the supermarkets have the potential to be making 25euro extra on that sale, of which only 4.75euro will go to the government as VAT, the shop gets 20.25euro ! utter madness.

Muahahaha wrote: »

All good points but I don't think it would be possible to import it en masse and get through customs.

I am not sure how it works TBH, I just think if customs got their duty they would care a lot less. Loads of the cheap beer is already imported so weight is seemingly not an issue, I am not even talking about small vans. As long as they are not trying to claim back the excise I do not see them caring too much. Maybe some retailer can explain more.

If I own a shop my understanding is I have to pay excise duty to the wholesaler. If I claim all my stock was stolen then what happens? I doubt the government will care much, they were not going to get much on the sale, they already got the excise. I would think I am meant to supply receipts for VAT.

If "free gifts" are outlawed I can still imagine dodgy offies handing them out, or just giving money back, they still have potentially huge profits to make on this.

Smidge

rubadub wrote: »

Ah sure that's nonsense, everybody knows that muggers & burglars spend their money on de heroin , never once has illgotten money gone towards legal addictive recreational drugs. I know for a fact the muggers set their dole money aside for booze and cigarettes, they would never dream of spending the mugging money on it!


This 2L will go to 7.89euro, so barely over twice the price, not 3.5 times. I am just pointing out to be wary of these complete bullshitters in the media.

But you could turn it against him, he is saying the supermarkets have the potential to be making 25euro extra on that sale, of which only 4.75euro will go to the government as VAT, the shop gets 20.25euro ! utter madness.

I am not sure how it works TBH, I just think if customs got their duty they would care a lot less. Loads of the cheap beer is already imported so weight is seemingly not an issue, I am not even talking about small vans. As long as they are not trying to claim back the excise I do not see them caring too much. Maybe some retailer can explain more.

If I own a shop my understanding is I have to pay excise duty to the wholesaler. If I claim all my stock was stolen then what happens? I doubt the government will care much, they were not going to get much on the sale, they already got the excise. I would think I am meant to supply receipts for VAT.

If "free gifts" are outlawed I can still imagine dodgy offies handing them out, or just giving money back, they still have potentially huge profits to make on this.

You may be misunderstanding me.....
The "expert" spouting these figures was for this proposal and supportive of the government introducing it.
He was a dr but by god was he towing a party line.

Smidge

Smidge wrote: »

You may be misunderstanding me.....
The "expert" spouting these figures was for this proposal and supportive of the government introducing it.
He was a dr but by god was he towing a party line.

In fairness, he had much stronger arguments than the other guy.

When someone tries to point out that a couple who drinks a can of the cheapest crud they can find every night of the week will be out of pocket for enjoying one of their few pleasures in life, I find it hard to have any sympathy. Maybe it's just because I find it sad that people on such a tight budget are so reliant on the need to have booze in their life. Depressing.

syklops

Basil3 wrote: »

In fairness, he mad much stronger arguments than the other guy.

When someone tries to point out that a couple who drinks a can of the cheapest crud they can find every night of the week will be out of pocket for enjoying one of their few pleasures in life, I find it hard to have any sympathy. Maybe it's just because I find it sad that people on such a tight budget are so reliant on the need to have booze in their life. Depressing.

It was a hypothetical to point out that if one stays inside HSE guidelines on drinking, that that couple are going to be 700 euro a year worse off.

I don't think the doctor had strong arguments at all. He gave an anedote of a guy who was drinking 6 litres of cider a day and somehow didn't know that it was bad for his health. He then tried to pass his responsibility for the amount he was drinking on to someone else asking why is it so freely available. I found that story a bit bizarre to be honest.

You can buy orange juice or coke or other soft drinks 24 hours a day, but if someone was drinking 6 litres of any of them a day and said they didn't know it was bad for them, you'd call them an eejit.

syklops

syklops wrote: »

It was a hypothetical to point out that if one stays inside HSE guidelines on drinking, that that couple are going to be 700 euro a year worse off.

I don't think the doctor had strong arguments at all. He gave an anedote of a guy who was drinking 6 litres of cider a day and somehow didn't know that it was bad for his health. He then tried to pass his responsibility for the amount he was drinking on to someone else asking why is it so freely available. I found that story a bit bizarre to be honest.

You can buy orange juice or coke or other soft drinks 24 hours a day, but if someone was drinking 6 litres of any of them a day and said they didn't know it was bad for them, you'd call them an eejit.

Yeah, was a bizarre story. Regardless, the doctor could provide evidence of the positive impact it would have. The other guy could only really say how a couple drinking over 700 cans of the cheapest beer a year would be worse off financially, or that drinking is reducing anyway, so it's not a problem.

elperello

Link to Primetime - http://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/2015/1217/

Amazing that Dr Stephen Stuart of the Mater Hospital said that low risk drinkers would only lose out by about 30 cent to 50 cent per week and he wasn't challenged on that claim.

syklops

Basil3 wrote: »

Yeah, was a bizarre story. Regardless, the doctor could provide evidence of the positive impact it would have. The other guy could only really say how a couple drinking over 700 cans of the cheapest beer a year would be worse off financially, or that drinking is reducing anyway, so it's not a problem.

The point was made to the doctor that alcoholics will continue to drink to get their fix, and his response was most people he sees aren't addicted to alcohol which was another bizarre claim.

I didn't hear any strong arguments from the doctor at all. Instead it felt like "I'm a doctor and I know better".

elperello

I'm a doctor and you will run out of money!

kylith

Basil3 wrote: »

. Maybe it's just because I find it sad that people on such a tight budget are so reliant on the need to have booze in their life. Depressing.

Yeah, and telly, and books, and the cinema, etc. etc. Why should people be denied some of life's little pleasures just because they're on a tight budget?

elperello

kylith wrote: »

Yeah, and telly, and books, and the cinema, etc. etc. Why should people be denied some of life's little pleasures just because they're on a tight budget?

Exactly, in a well ordered society it should be your choice not someone else's if you want to enjoy a can or glass of your favorite tipple in your own home.

Look at this from yesterday's Irish Times, even the dentists are getting in on the act trying to make your drink more expensive.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/alcohol-and-minimum-unit-pricing-1.2468367

Biffo The Bare

I am a strong believer in individual freedom and responsibility.
Why is that imbecilic Leo Varadkar bringing in legislation to punish the vast majority of responsible drinkers for the actions of a troublesome few by hiking up alcohol prices across the board? It is at worst completely unfair and at best, downright perverse.
Anyway the price of alcohol will have very little impact on the habits of heavy drinkers. It just means an alcoholic will give less money to his wife to run the household budget. So Varadkar is in effect depriving poor families of even more money.
Where will Varadkar's nanny state politics binge end. A minimum price on fizzy drinks, cream cakes, pizzas, chocolate, fish and chips or curry?
Varadkar, tackle the alcohol abuse problem within your health department. It is not the responsibility of sensible drinkers to be involved in this process.
Cretinous proposal.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Where does the idea that cheap drink equals drinking to excess come from anyway? Go to a supermarket in Portugal, you can get a slab of Superbock for €12-15 - you don't see Portuguese teenagers falling around the streets

rubadub

Smidge wrote: »

You may be misunderstanding me.....
The "expert" spouting these figures was for this proposal and supportive of the government introducing it.

Yes, I am was just saying he is inadvertently making a case against it. Was the potential loss in tax revenue discussed at all?

Basil3 wrote: »

When someone tries to point out that a couple who drinks a can of the cheapest crud they can find every night of the week will be out of pocket for enjoying one of their few pleasures in life, I find it hard to have any sympathy. Maybe it's just because I find it sad that people on such a tight budget are so reliant on the need to have booze in their life. Depressing.

Many doctors would recommend 1 pint of beer or glass of wine per day, its not even that its "under the limit" its actually recommended. They are certainly not getting drunk, not even tipsy.

I would have sympathy for these people, just like if milk suddenly had a min price which was going to cost them 70cent more per day for the pint of milk they drink with their tea throughout the day. They would probably be buying supermarket brand milk just like they drink cheaper brands of beer, I would not automatically regard either as "crud" as many would give them a similar mark out of 10 in a blind tasting session to more expensive brands (the higher cost is often simply down to paying for advertising, not higher quality ingredients). In a blind taste of vodkas 2 spirit experts voted the cheapest vodka as better than branded ones, including supposedly "super premium" stuff like grey goose.

I would not be depressed at all thinking of people so reliant on the need to have milk in their life. Enjoying their milk, in amounts recommended by doctors.

A Shaved Duck?

I wonder how the craft beer producers feel about this proprosal, typically their brews are much stronger than normal beers.

This measure will have a massive impact on this growing sector of local businesses and will ultimately cost jobs imo.

On one hand the gubberment are spouting on about growing and helping indigenous business then on the other making their market conditions worse.

BattleCorp

elperello wrote: »

Link to Primetime - http://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/2015/1217/

Amazing that Dr Stephen Stuart of the Mater Hospital said that low risk drinkers would only lose out by about 30 cent to 50 cent per week and he wasn't challenged on that claim.

His idea of a low risk drinker is probably somebody who drinks half a pint of beer per week.

elperello

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Where does the idea that cheap drink equals drinking to excess come from anyway? Go to a supermarket in Portugal, you can get a slab of Superbock for €12-15 - you don't see Portuguese teenagers falling around the streets

From an unholy alliance of trade interests, over zealous medics and nanny state
promoters.

Unfortunately they have got backing from a bunch of unimaginative politicians and there is little or no organised opposition.

darkpagandeath

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Where does the idea that cheap drink equals drinking to excess come from anyway? Go to a supermarket in Portugal, you can get a slab of Superbock for €12-15 - you don't see Portuguese teenagers falling around the streets

We do not have a drinking issue in Ireland. Facts are Facts we are middle for consumption in the EU. I would like to see the stats on our Raging alchos vs places like Poland and Finland for example. I will wager we have no higher amount of Alchos per-capita than the EU average. The drinking issue here is a Myth. It's created by terrible Licensing laws. Full nights drink in a few hours as the places close. I'm getting sick to death of Hearing this anecdotal evidence that Ireland is overrun with alchos and we would drink ourselves to death if the price went to the EU average and opening times was 24hrs. It's no coincidence that a lot of TD's are publicans and cannot change their terrible business models and use health to gouge the population. We have the 2nd highest alchohol price in the Entire EU. Putting the price up is lunacy of the highest order it should be brought down by a good bit actually. Amazing they don't interfere in the free market in relation to rent... oh wait loads of them are Rental property owners too.

elperello

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

I wonder how the craft beer producers feel about this proprosal, typically their brews are much stronger than normal beers.

This measure will have a massive impact on this growing sector of local businesses and will ultimately cost jobs imo.

On one hand the gubberment are spouting on about growing and helping indigenous business then on the other making their market conditions worse.

At first sight it might appear that they will do ok if the MUP makes the cheaper stuff more expensive their product looks more appealing.

However,I suspect that a lot of their off-trade sales are to people already drinking mainly cheaper brands who push the boat out and try a craft beer or two now and then.If they have to pay more for the cheaper beer they will have less disposable "beer money" to experiment with the €3.50 per bottle craft beer.

In the long term craft brewers are just looking for a small share of a big market and if government policy messes up that market they could lose out.

Capt'n Midnight

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

I wonder how the craft beer producers feel about this proprosal, typically their brews are much stronger than normal beers.

This measure will have a massive impact on this growing sector of local businesses and will ultimately cost jobs imo.

On one hand the gubberment are spouting on about growing and helping indigenous business then on the other making their market conditions worse.

It won't help them at all.

It's priced to accommodate the RRP of the big brands. Sure it means the price of a slab would go up a little. But if you are only buying a few bottles the price difference between heavily advertised larger and craft beer won't change.

It's corporate welfare.

rubadub

rubadub wrote: »

Yes, I am was just saying he is inadvertently making a case against it. Was the potential loss in tax revenue discussed at all?

Many doctors would recommend 1 pint of beer or glass of wine per day, its not even that its "under the limit" its actually recommended. They are certainly not getting drunk, not even tipsy.

I would have sympathy for these people, just like if milk suddenly had a min price which was going to cost them 70cent more per day for the pint of milk they drink with their tea throughout the day. They would probably be buying supermarket brand milk just like they drink cheaper brands of beer, I would not automatically regard either as "crud" as many would give them a similar mark out of 10 in a blind tasting session to more expensive brands (the higher cost is often simply down to paying for advertising, not higher quality ingredients). In a blind taste of vodkas 2 spirit experts voted the cheapest vodka as better than branded ones, including supposedly "super premium" stuff like grey goose.

I would not be depressed at all thinking of people so reliant on the need to have milk in their life. Enjoying their milk, in amounts recommended by doctors.

Sorry, I didn't even know doctors recommended that you should be drinking every day. That's clearly where I've gone wrong in life :P

Seriously though, I think what you and other posters say has summed up the attitude towards booze here. It's classed the same as milk, TV, cinema, books.

I put booze in the same category as smokes, drugs and junk food. Not a necessity in life, not good for you, but have it if you want it.