The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

MonkeyTennis

mikeym wrote: »

Up yours VFI

Up yours Fine Gael

No doubt the SNEAKY Government will be stubborn and will plead the we are stone broke excuse like they did with the VRT.

Well said that man. Im not denying that we have a serious drink problem but we need to ...


7 quid for a bottle of Gin in aldi.? . see ya !

Custardpi

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

[/B]

Haha this is so true, I've been on it about 6 times in the past few years with people visiting from overseas. I've observed people the Gravity Bar taking a sip and then starting to gag, and saying things like "what the fcuk is this sh1t?" "Oh man, not good."

Poor lil yankee babies can't handle the stuff, they'd rather drink a half pint of some mule piss lager.

I've only been in the Gravity Bar once but on that occasion I didn't think the quality of the pint I was served was particularly great. The guys pouring pints didn't seem to be that familiar with the process - not the best showcase for the product. Not bad enough to send back but I've had a better pint in the vast majority of pubs around the country I've been in.

Capt'n Midnight

Banjo String wrote: »

Lost revenue as people stock up cross border.

The plan was to introduce similar rules in NI based on previous experience with petrol and cigs.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In that context, I really can't imagine that a tax on a certain product which differentiates between the venues where that product is sold would be found to be legal.

Lord Derpington wrote: »

In theory, however they could draw a distinction between off licence sales and pub sales etc and increase the tax that way, but it would be even more transparent that it is puerly favour of VFI and unlikely (hopefully) to happen.

There is already a Second Reduced Rate of VAT of 9% for the hospitality sector. And don't ya just love they way they've used it to decrease prices/increase staff wages :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

Ineedaname wrote: »

So I just heard on the radio someone saying that because Ireland has such high tax on drink that it's proof taxes don't work to discourage drinking.

So we need to increase the prices more.

Yeah

+1

I'm sick and tired of debunking this one. We don't have high tax on drink when compared to the constant ratcheting up of prices by the vintners.

The VAT rate change to 23% brings in more extra revenue from a pub pint than the 7c increase in Excise duty since 1994.

Vintners have added a lot more than 7c to a pint since 1994.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

From Taxpolicy.gov.ie http://taxpolicy.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/12-20-General-Excise-Duties.pdf

Today's excise rate is 22.55 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer. For something at 4% this works out at 51.23c

see also http://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/19131/ which says €19.87 back in 1994
(what it doesn't say is how many drinkers changed from cider to beer)
Also back in 1970 excise contributed to 16.5% of revenue.

[edit] yes back in 1970 one sixth of guberment income came from alcohol. Proof that high prices alone didn't reduce demand.

Clive Bisquette

Banjo String wrote: »

I'd laugh if the west Dublin electorate punished Leo for this gerrymandering to the VFI.

Good man "Strings" blame FG for this when the real VFI power resides in the Republican Party.

Don't laugh too soon pal ..:cool:

darkpagandeath

Soooooo. The sensible thing now is to scrap this legislation/Bill completely due to it being a massive waste of time and money due to being illegal. Ireland would not be any different to Scotland so Political arrogance will get them absolutely nowhere. I bet there is a load of red faces in the Publican TD's camp paper shacking monocle dropping.

Capt'n Midnight

Facepalm The Alcohol Beverage Federation of Ireland raises the red herring of below cost selling again.


Beer is very cheap to make.
If you want to work out the prices then 6 US cans is roughly 2 Litres.
So these per pint prices are very rough, but
Water 0.2c
Malt 4c
Hops 1.5c
Yeast 3c

Big brewers would have greater economies of scale but you can DIY
http://www.homebrewwest.ie/microbrewery-equipment-ireland-238-c.asp

setting up a microbrewery has never been easier or more affordable. And you can make beer for as little as 0.20 euro cents per pint including energy costs

.

darkpagandeath

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Facepalm The Alcohol Beverage Federation of Ireland raises the red herring of below cost selling again.


Beer is very cheap to make.
If you want to work out the prices then 6 US cans is roughly 2 Litres.
So these per pint prices are very rough, but
Water 0.2c
Malt 4c
Hops 1.5c
Yeast 3c

Big brewers would have greater economies of scale but you can DIY
http://www.homebrewwest.ie/microbrewery-equipment-ireland-238-c.asp.

What's their point yes it is cheap to make, Not to sell or to Purchase in the shop or pub ??? Beer spirits are cheap to buy in other countries. What nonsense are they on now ?

Just to add what's with the news reporting EC ruling could effect the bill here. It has and will it's illegal.

Atlantic Dawn

If you were after scientific fact and actual real world figures they would see that in the countries where alcohol is cheaper than here they have less problem with it.

Billy86

Ineedaname wrote: »

So I just heard on the radio someone saying that because Ireland has such high tax on drink that it's proof taxes don't work to discourage drinking.

So we need to increase the prices more apparently.

Which makes no sense

It makes perfect sense. Raising costs do not lead to less consumption, so to lessen consumption we must raise the cost. You just need to think about it long and hard.

darkpagandeath

Billy86 wrote: »

It makes perfect sense. Raising costs do not lead to less consumption, so to lessen consumption we must raise the cost. You just need to think about it long and hard.

Reduce it to what ? Figures have already been linked we do not have a drinking problem in Ireland. They have also not shown we have a higher percentage of problem drinkers than anywhere else. It's all conjecture and stereotypes. Why do people pre drink... Oh yes because the cost of drink in the pub is prohibitive. Why do people get so drunk and flood the streets. Oh that's due to ridiculous licensing laws and closing times.

1. Problem drinkers will not be affected by price.
2. Lower the alcohol price to EU average.
3. Extend pub times 24 hours

You will see a spike in drinking till it normalises and then less social issues due to stupid laws that have been proven in causing problems. Binge drinking has been created here by stupid laws.

Billy86

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Reduce it to what ?

It's kind of like how if you keep increasing the power of a car it will eventually become less powerful. Or if you keep adding weight to something, it will eventually get lighter. Or if you need to take a piss, drinking litres of water and coffee will make the urge go away.

Just, you need to think really long and hard about it.

Long Gone

syklops wrote: »

Google it, its well reported as being beneficial for a huge range of ailments, from blood clots to dementia.

I'm afraid that telling me to "Google it" in response to my questioning the completely unsubstantiated and highly dubious claim which you have made in your post is neither a reasoned, reasonable or rational response.:)

For all the people who claim that it is beneficial there will be an equal number if not more claiming that it is a contributory factor to the ailments mentioned !

darkpagandeath

Anyone explain what Leo's Ramblings meant on the news, He seemed to be contradicting what the EC said. I think they Know the EU law better than him That's their job. What does he think he is going to do ? Minimum price is illegal if tax can achieve the same thing. So I.E Minimum price is illegal. I don't get the train of thought that seems to think this does not apply to Ireland.

He also muttered something about bellow cost selling due to vat/excise. Me think he is telling porkies.

Clive Bisquette

We need the Europes to tell how to REALLY manage ....any chance de trika cud cum bak ?

The beer situ is a victory for common sense ...from fcukin Europe ...Paddy likes his beer ..young Pat drinks to excess and causes mayhem in the chipper arter closin time!

Sensible Paddy likes a few cans watchin the Late Late or whatever ...but he has to pay for young Pats alledged indescretions and the powerful lobby of the VFI

The Europes seen thru this Shoit and gave us a good result !

Go the fcukin Europes !!

e.r

Just thinking did Leo research EU law before the countless money and public servants time.
Another waste by government officials again.....

darkpagandeath

e.r wrote: »

Just thinking did Leo research EU law before the countless money and public servants time.
Another waste by government officials again.....

I would wager nope to that one, Just like the MCT had no issues till it got shot down. Just like this has been.

matrim

This has been in the pipeline long before Leo. Back in 2011 Roisin Shortall was pushing for it when she was in the Department of health

Spanish Eyes

If this measure was introduced for HEALTH REASONS it would be accepted.

But we have in Ireland the most clued in electorate anywhere. We have form on this!

BuilderPlumber

The pub trade is dying in many places and at best is not what it once was in others. The response by publicans and the VFI is always the same: blame drink driving laws, low cost supermarket and off licence drink, the smoking ban, the recession, competing events in community centres, etc. BUT NEVER THEMSELVES!

A lot of Irish pubs have nobody going into them and from what I see, it is their own fault. The reason is that no effort is being made. Here are my top 10 major flaws I find with most Irish pubs:

1. Unfriendly staff and (worse) owners: If I had a Euro for every sour barman, barmaid or pub owner I have come across, I'd be a millionaire. They can be gruff, indifferent, unfriendly and all this and can make little of customers too. Still, they expect one to dish out the cash for overpriced Heineken, Guinness, Carlsberg, Tuborg or Budweiser.
2. High Prices: Beer, whiskey and especially wine and cider are sold at extortionate prices. The city pubs are much worse than rural pubs on this one. Dublin prices (I lived there for a number of years) are obviously the worst. If the VFI talk of low cost drink being sold, well the rest of us talk about overpriced drink.
3. Nonexistent to poor entertainment: Many pubs offer no live music, cards, pool, trad sessions, darts, quizzes, variety nights, etc. Other pubs offer only very impersonal and brutal bands playing bad Irish country or poorly written originals. Another thing that annoys the hell out of me is these early music sessions. Say from 5 to 7. They end up making people drink more and lead to point 7.
4. Radios on full blast playing awful music: Often when pubs have no entertainment, they play the local radio full blast and it usually is godawful Irish country music requests programmes. If someone wanted to sing or come in and play a bit of trad, the barman would not be happy.
5. Their unwillingness to help customers: they will not drive them to or from the venue or support some charity event a customer has.
6. Dirt: many pubs are dirty dives with food all over their tables and chairs, dirty toilets and wet beer drenched floors.
7. Tolerance of argumentative and violent people: some pubs turn a blind eye to troublemakers because they drink a lot and give the pub €100 a night and show up 7 nights. Other customers leave.
8. Erratic closing times: some pubs I know close their doors at 10.30 on Saturdays when closing time is 12.30. Many responsible drinkers are only going out at 10.30!
9. Relating to all these points: owners or barpersons making decisions to suit themselves and not their customers.
10. Overpriced fags, take away drinks, chocolate, etc.

You could add lack of alcoholic drink choices, lack of alternatives to alcohol for those who do not drink or can not drink alcohol on the night, over the top prices for craft beers, etc. to the list. Pubs that do make an effort to be friendly, offer entertainment that suits all and are willing to support their customers will always do better. Those that don't deserve to be closed ASAP.

Sam Kade

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyone explain what Leo's Ramblings meant on the news, He seemed to be contradicting what the EC said. I think they Know the EU law better than him That's their job. What does he think he is going to do ? Minimum price is illegal if tax can achieve the same thing. So I.E Minimum price is illegal. I don't get the train of thought that seems to think this does not apply to Ireland.

He also muttered something about bellow cost selling due to vat/excise. Me think he is telling porkies.

He realised that he made an eejit of himself and he's muttering and mumbling trying to cover his tracks. Only to make himself look an even bigger eejit.

Cienciano

Muahahaha wrote: »

Pretty much correct. Currently off sales can be as low as 20% of pub prices. Leos new laws would have meant they rose up to 40% of the price of pubs, it was a law deliberately targeted at off licences whilst avoiding any negative impact for publicans. In fact publicans thought they stood to gain as less people might drink at home as a result. Now thats not going to happen so anyone who likes to have a drink at home can celebrate.

Doesn't fit in well with what they promised before the election:

http://i.imgur.com/YNzVon6.png

That was part of their election manifesto along with Endas famous "5 point plan".

darkpagandeath

Cienciano wrote: »

Doesn't fit in well with what they promised before the election:

http://i.imgur.com/YNzVon6.png

That was part of their election manifesto along with Endas famous "5 point plan".

Who is selling below cost ? Why do they keep saying this were is the data to backup this, them wanting to line their own pockets and stop competition ?

Atlantic Dawn

Are they really selling below cost? Just say they are and I go in to Tesco with my €20 off a €100 spend are you seriously telling me Tesco are not only making a loss on the price of the product on sale but will actually accept a voucher taking an additional €20 off this again? Surely they would be bust in no time?

Sand

VinLieger wrote: »

Hahahaha wooo EUCJ rules minimum pricing is illegal and a tax should be imposed instead in Scotland!!!

http://www.thejournal.ie/alcohol-minimum-pricing-european-court-2517139-Dec2015/

Take that Leo and VFI!!!

Bloody EU bureaucrats interfering in our....oh wait! Yay, EU saves Irish people from the Irish government again.

darkpagandeath

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Are they really selling below cost? Just say they are and I go in to Tesco with my €20 off a €100 spend are you seriously telling me Tesco are not only making a loss on the price of the product on sale but will actually accept a voucher taking an additional €20 off this again? Surely they would be bust in no time?

They keep saying it happens and never show any backup evidence. Just like Leo on the news saying shops not far from the dail are selling below vat/Excise. The data should not be hard to present.

And the argument is ridiculous anyway. Popular fast food chains sell food cheaper then most restaurants. Should we make a minimum price to protect Restaurants because of the Tourism argument. Guess not many TD's are Restaurateurs.

You can Guarantee the old Tourism argument for pubs is to stop spoons getting in and that is all.

syklops

Long Gone wrote: »

For all the people who claim that it is beneficial there will be an equal number if not more claiming that it is a contributory factor to the ailments mentioned !

Link please?

syklops

The Vintners’ Federation of Ireland (VFI) said it “broadly welcomed” today’s judgement, but insisted that the Government should persist with minimum unit pricing.

“The VFI understands that the ECJ appreciates the objectives of the Scottish Parliament to primarily reduce the hazardous consumption of alcohol, a view and objective we would share as a major industry stakeholder in Ireland,” it said in a statement.

“The ECJ has stated that the introduction of Minimum Unit Pricing (MUP) is only justifiable if it is demonstrated to be proportionate and would achieve what higher taxes on alcohol or other forms of taxation wouldn’t achieve.

“If higher taxation on alcohol had the capability to address the alcohol related issues highlighted by the health professionals we would have few problems in Ireland.

“We have one of the highest levels of taxation on alcohol in Europe and it clearly does not address these issues.

“Taxation as a measure is impotent when some supermarkets sell below the combined VAT and excise levels on alcohol as they currently do as a loss leader.

“The ECJ have referred this back to local courts, and on that basis, it is our opinion, that the Irish Government should continue to introduce a MUP in Ireland, and that this remains the best method to reduce harmful drinking and not other tax measures.”

The VFI welcomes the decision but still thinks the government should press ahead with their plan. Im a bit sick of the VFI. If the VFI are gettng laws written then I want to know the names of the people involved. Who is the director? Who is the secretary? Who is making decisions?

About the cheapest beer costs 5 euro for 4 cans. Thats 1.25 per can. Thats about 25 cents more than what the same beer will cost you in Poland or the Czech Republic in a pub. In a can, in a supermarket over there it will cost you about. 35 cents.

Why are we talking about below cost selling again?

Billy86

syklops wrote: »

Thats about 25 cents more than what the same beer will cost you in Poland or the Czech Republic in a pub. In a can, in a supermarket over there it will cost you about. 35 cents.

I would wager less again, since I have seen cans in supermarkets in Berlin selling for... 27c I think it was. And that was buying them individually!

FISMA.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

They were price gougers during the boom ... They then tried to form a cartel in order to keep prices up. To be honest I wouldn't be too disappointed if the pub trade kicked the bucket although I would feel for the staff.

When the supermarkets are the only game in town, do you think they will be any better than the pubs?