The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

Bongalongherb

There will be a political fight over this minimum pricing policy. (Another kick in the soft spot for the less well off) By the way for the publicans... it won't get folk back into your dislocated pubs and fill the drunk with craic, rip-off merchants, who the heck wants to go into a pub anyway as most folk drive, you can't even enjoy 1 full pint incase you're afraid you are over the limit.

The seat is old and decrepit with the usual dip of your arse vacuumed into it holding you down while the poor person needs to go home but your suck-chair of age will not allow this persons arse to un-suck itself from your premises. Have another one Tony... sure you may as well while the publican is winking. Never trust a barman that has a lower left eye, it's from winking too much.

The deal is to get the flock into the pubs again, back to the old days of ripoffness.

It won't work. And the reason for this is because folk aren't as thick as you publicans think. Nice can of Tuborg here watering the lips while I don't have to listen to a bunch of old-farts beckoning all night.

Lower your price and you might get an extra few customers in, otherwise another one bites the dust.

hatrickpatrick

It looks like Varadkar will argue that taxes don't work because of below cost selling being legal. This is a potential risk for the court allowing the law to go through, but I wonder how good an argument that will be vs the competition argument for outlawing it?

suicide_circus

If I go into dunnes and get 24 cans for 24euro, are dunnes making a loss?

ArmaniJeanss

suicide_circus wrote: »

If I go into dunnes and get 24 cans for 24euro, are dunnes making a loss?

Assuming 500ml cans at 4.2% (you actually need to be specific about such things in the question as the excise is derived from them).

Excise Duty per can 46c. Vat 19c.
So base tax is 65c leaving everyone else from the brewer/shipper/seller to split the 35c, cover their costs and perhaps make a profit.
So theoretically it may not be below cost.

Clive Bisquette

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The pub trade is dying in many places and at best is not what it once was in others. The response by publicans and the VFI is always the same: blame drink driving laws, low cost supermarket and off licence drink, the smoking ban, the recession, competing events in community centres, etc. BUT NEVER THEMSELVES!

A lot of Irish pubs have nobody going into them and from what I see, it is their own fault. The reason is that no effort is being made. Here are my top 10 major flaws I find with most Irish pubs:

1. Unfriendly staff and (worse) owners: If I had a Euro for every sour barman, barmaid or pub owner I have come across, I'd be a millionaire. They can be gruff, indifferent, unfriendly and all this and can make little of customers too. Still, they expect one to dish out the cash for overpriced Heineken, Guinness, Carlsberg, Tuborg or Budweiser.
2. High Prices: Beer, whiskey and especially wine and cider are sold at extortionate prices. The city pubs are much worse than rural pubs on this one. Dublin prices (I lived there for a number of years) are obviously the worst. If the VFI talk of low cost drink being sold, well the rest of us talk about overpriced drink.
3. Nonexistent to poor entertainment: Many pubs offer no live music, cards, pool, trad sessions, darts, quizzes, variety nights, etc. Other pubs offer only very impersonal and brutal bands playing bad Irish country or poorly written originals. Another thing that annoys the hell out of me is these early music sessions. Say from 5 to 7. They end up making people drink more and lead to point 7.
4. Radios on full blast playing awful music: Often when pubs have no entertainment, they play the local radio full blast and it usually is godawful Irish country music requests programmes. If someone wanted to sing or come in and play a bit of trad, the barman would not be happy.
5. Their unwillingness to help customers: they will not drive them to or from the venue or support some charity event a customer has.
6. Dirt: many pubs are dirty dives with food all over their tables and chairs, dirty toilets and wet beer drenched floors.
7. Tolerance of argumentative and violent people: some pubs turn a blind eye to troublemakers because they drink a lot and give the pub €100 a night and show up 7 nights. Other customers leave.
8. Erratic closing times: some pubs I know close their doors at 10.30 on Saturdays when closing time is 12.30. Many responsible drinkers are only going out at 10.30!
9. Relating to all these points: owners or barpersons making decisions to suit themselves and not their customers.
10. Overpriced fags, take away drinks, chocolate, etc.

You could add lack of alcoholic drink choices, lack of alternatives to alcohol for those who do not drink or can not drink alcohol on the night, over the top prices for craft beers, etc. to the list. Pubs that do make an effort to be friendly, offer entertainment that suits all and are willing to support their customers will always do better. Those that don't deserve to be closed ASAP.

Loved that big wall of text..very impressive....what were you on about ?

Long Gone

syklops wrote: »

Link please?

Link to what sham ? The point I very clearly made is that there are commentators both pro and con the statement made...... :rolleyes: That is a self evident fact.

Long Gone

Clive Bisquette wrote: »

Loved that big wall of text..very impressive....what were you on about ?

It was a actually a very well-reasoned, intelligent and thoughtful post relevant to the subject under discussion - No wonder you were incapable of either reading it or understanding it.....;)

Billy86

Clive Bisquette wrote: »

Loved that big wall of text..very impressive....what were you on about ?

That's one of the better posts in the whole thread, makes a lot of great points. I always found people who took issue with detailed posts just for the fact that they are detailed, on a forum, pretty amusing. Kind of like someone going to a football game and complaining about people passing the ball.

Galwayguy35

The VFI weren't half as concerned about peoples health 20 years ago when the car parks were full of people driving home after a bellyful of beer in their pubs.

This law if it goes through is just punishing everyone by pushing up the price of drink.

darkpagandeath

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It looks like Varadkar will argue that taxes don't work because of below cost selling being legal. This is a potential risk for the court allowing the law to go through, but I wonder how good an argument that will be vs the competition argument for outlawing it?

It can't go through, EC said you have to tax as Min price is anti competition due to tax being the best option for "Health". Price and tax here have proven neither work. It's nanny state BS self for filling prophecy due to terrible laws. We do not have a drinking problem. Again they never give any states on how may problem drinkers we have vs other states. They can't even give us data on who is selling bellow cost. Leo was on TV yesterday saying Shops near the Dail sell below Vat/Excise with no backup. They can't present data as it's made up.

listermint

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It can't go through, EC said you have to tax as Min price is anti competition due to tax being the best option for "Health". Price and tax here have proven neither work. It's nanny state BS self for filling prophecy due to terrible laws. We do not have a drinking problem. Again they never give any states on how may problem drinkers we have vs other states. They can't even give us data on who is selling bellow cost. Leo was on TV yesterday saying Shops near the Dail sell below Vat/Excise with no backup. They can't present data as it's made up.

Because Leo is the definition of soundbite.


He just isnt credible at this stage having shown early promise as being a thoughtful politician.

dasdog

listermint wrote: »

Because Leo is the definition of soundbite.


He just isnt credible at this stage having shown early promise as being a thoughtful politician.

This. In his roles as minister for transport, tourism, sport and later health I cannot think of anything he has actually done. This is as much to do with his career achievements if he is to become leader of FG down the line as it is ceding to the LVA/VFI. But as long as he has the media on his side this will not be called out.

suicide_circus

listermint wrote: »

Because Leo is the definition of soundbite.


He just isnt credible at this stage having shown early promise as being a thoughtful politician.

Couldn't agree more.

Capt'n Midnight

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Assuming 500ml cans at 4.2% (you actually need to be specific about such things in the question as the excise is derived from them).

Excise Duty per can 46c. Vat 19c.
So base tax is 65c leaving everyone else from the brewer/shipper/seller to split the 35c, cover their costs and perhaps make a profit.
So theoretically it may not be below cost.

As I've posted before home brew can cost as little as 20c a pint. And the big brewers will have further economies of scale.

If you want to compare the cost of materials, production, packaging, storage, transport etc then look at the prices Lidl/Aldi/Tesco charge for a tins of kidney beans or baked beans. It's only twenty something cents and there's a lot more water in a can of beer.

elperello

dasdog wrote: »

This. In his roles as minister for transport, tourism, sport and later health I cannot think of anything he has actually done. This is as much to do with his career achievements if he is to become leader of FG down the line as it is ceding to the LVA/VFI. But as long as he has the media on his side this will not be called out.

And he certainly has the luvvies in the Irish Times onside. See some quotes from Paul Cullen's extraordinary article in today's paper -

1- titled "Tale of two vices - EU curbs smoking but balks on booze"

2- Alcohol's harm reaches far wider than tobacco

3- There is no safe level at which alcohol can be consumed

4- By setting a floor on the price of cheap alcohol, minimum unit pricing can discourage heavy drinking and make it more attractive to consume alcohol in the controlled environment of the pub.

FULL ARTICLE HERE http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/a-tale-of-two-vices-eu-curbs-smoking-but-balks-on-booze-1.2476708

darkpagandeath

elperello wrote: »

And he certainly has the luvvies in the Irish Times onside. See some quotes Paul Cullen's extraordinary article in today's paper -

1- titled "Tale of two vices - EU curbs smoking but balks on booze"

2- Alcohol's harm reaches far wider than tobacco

3- There is no safe level at which alcohol can be consumed

4- By setting a floor on the price of cheap alcohol, minimum unit pricing can discourage heavy drinking and make it more attractive to consume alcohol in the controlled environment of the pub.

FULL ARTICLE HERE http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/a-tale-of-two-vices-eu-curbs-smoking-but-balks-on-booze-1.2476708

3 is complete tripe who lets them away with that nonsense ??? There seems a safe level of hyperbole though...

4 don't see many barmen stopping people drinking till they cannot walk. it's safer to drink at home.

cerastes

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It can't go through, EC said you have to tax as Min price is anti competition due to tax being the best option for "Health". Price and tax here have proven neither work. It's nanny state BS self for filling prophecy due to terrible laws. We do not have a drinking problem. Again they never give any states on how may problem drinkers we have vs other states. They can't even give us data on who is selling bellow cost. Leo was on TV yesterday saying Shops near the Dail sell below Vat/Excise with no backup. They can't present data as it's made up.

I heard him (leo) on the radio, despite what the EU has said, he seemed insistent on still pushing it through? it seems he cant do a u turn and they will try find some way.
I think it shows the level of contempt they have for people in this country, rather than fix any problems, just tax the fcuk out of it or anything to compensate.
Misdirection and slight of hand, nothing is actual been done here except shafting people and hiding the fact they are doing damn all about things that matter while making a song and dance that they are.
If this is the viewpoint of this person and FG, it shows how dangerous they are, that they will simply foist their views of what we should do on us, modern day fascist temperance nut jobs.
It wasnt so long ago I heard people laud this guy as a sensible sort on the way up and likely to be Taoiseach, I hope most can see what he's really like.

Atlantic Dawn

Leo may or may not be in government when it goes in as it will be after the next election, I think overall the vast majority of people are against it, they are really shooting themselves in the foot with this. The smoking ban as a health measure had much wider support even from smokers.

senordingdong

cerastes wrote: »

I heard him (leo) on the radio, despite what the EU has said, he seemed insistent on still pushing it through? it seems he cant do a u turn and they will try find some way.
.

Because he is minister for health and knows he can't fix the problems of the health service. So instead he will fabricate a problem in order to create a solution that nobody needed and exclaim to everyone about the great job he has done.

Clive Bisquette

Long Gone wrote: »

It was a actually a very well-reasoned, intelligent and thoughtful post relevant to the subject under discussion - No wonder you were incapable of either reading it or understanding it.....;)

I am happy to take your word for that Dude....but...uh....could he not have spaced it out a bit ?

Long Gone

listermint wrote: »

Because Leo is the definition of soundbite.

He just isnt credible at this stage having shown early promise as being a thoughtful politician.

He never was credible.

spiralism

senordingdong wrote: »

Because he is minister for health and knows he can't fix the problems of the health service. So instead he will fabricate a problem in order to create a solution that nobody needed and exclaim to everyone about the great job he has done.

The Micháel Martin approach so. Didn't matter that the Health service was made a right bollocks of when he could trot out the smoking ban

A Rogue Hobo

The most lauaghable part of the whole idea though is if it were to happen, I bet it would have the exact opposite effect of what they think will happen and it would drive people away from the pubs further.

The whole reason so many people buy alcohol to consume at home now in the first place is because people already feel priced out of the pub from all the tax that's gone onto the price of a pint over all these years. Eating further into people's disposable income isn't going to make people drink in a "safe environment", if anything the exact opposite will happen.

It's similar to the restrictions the government at the time placed on alcohol a few years ago with closing times and only being able to buy beer until ten o'clock. It was done to curb binge drinking and anti-social behaviour and instead just contributed to the problem they were trying to eradicate.

redarmyblues

A Rogue Hobo wrote: »

The most lauaghable part of the whole idea though is if it were to happen, I bet it would have the exact opposite effect of what they think will happen and it would drive people away from the pubs further.

The whole reason so many people buy alcohol to consume at home now in the first place is because people already feel priced out of the pub from all the tax that's gone onto the price of a pint over all these years. Eating further into people's disposable income isn't going to make people drink in a "safe environment", if anything the exact opposite will happen.

Much of the of the pub industry in England opposed minimum pricing for this reason.

Capt'n Midnight

A Rogue Hobo wrote: »

The whole reason so many people buy alcohol to consume at home now in the first place is because people already feel priced out of the pub from all the tax that's gone onto the price of a pint over all these years.

Stop listening to the drinks industry :mad:

The excise duty on a pint has gone up just 7c since 1994.

Meanwhile VAT has gone up 70c , TEN TIMES as much. (21% of €2.34 vs. 23% of €4.81)


So there is no justification to impose minimum prices for alcohol when there are existing mechanisms they could use. They could increase excise, which would mean more tax revenue. Or they could apply the existing special hospitality industry rate of VAT in pubs.

Then again when VAT was reduced to 20% in the past the savings weren't passed on to the consumer :mad:

Clive Bisquette

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Stop listening to the drinks industry :mad:

The excise duty on a pint has gone up just 7c since 1994.

Meanwhile VAT has gone up 70c , TEN TIMES as much. (21% of €2.34 vs. 23% of €4.81)


So there is no justification to impose minimum prices for alcohol when there are existing mechanisms they could use. They could increase excise, which would mean more tax revenue. Or they could apply the existing special hospitality industry rate of VAT in pubs.

Then again when VAT was reduced to 20% in the past the savings weren't passed on to the consumer :mad:

Of course it wasn't ! And neither is the reduced VAT on food consumed in restaurants ..just another opportunity to gouge poor Paddy.

If publicans feel they can charge 5.80 for a 330ml bott of Coors ahead of a rugby match they should not expect much sympathy.

The tide is out for these Gimps ....it's unfair to penalise Pat for having a few moderate cans in front of the telly.!

worded

My Ma says .....

He should go home and make his husband a cup of tea

elperello

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/7490450/2-15062016-CP-EN.pdf/89fe10a7-1fbb-4d34-a4bb-e18ec179c87b

Eurostat report states that Ireland is already the most expensive in the EU for drinks.

Billy86

This min pricing business is a joke, and the reasons given are beyond insulting to our collective intelligence, but personally being 4th highest in food price worries me more!

Could be worse I guess, I just bought 2 litres of milk and 200g of the cheapest cheddar I could find... $12. :rolleyes:

macnug

So what's the story is talk of this kicking off again? I thought this proposal was dead in the water.