The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

elperello

macnug wrote: »

So what's the story is talk of this kicking off again? I thought this proposal was dead in the water.

http://alcoholireland.ie/

Have a look in the long grass!

These guys and others are working away at getting the politicians to increase the price you pay for your bottle of wine or case of beer.

Geuze

elperello wrote: »

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/7490450/2-15062016-CP-EN.pdf/89fe10a7-1fbb-4d34-a4bb-e18ec179c87b

Eurostat report states that Ireland is already the most expensive in the EU for drinks.

Just to note that I'm fairly sure that refers to retail supermarket / shop prices, not pub/hotel prices.

Geuze

Billy86 wrote: »

Could be worse I guess, I just bought 2 litres of milk and 200g of the cheapest cheddar I could find... $12. :rolleyes:

2L milk in Ireland is 1.49.

Cheddar is from 6.00 per kg in supermarkets, own-brand, large pack.

Sliced, smaller pack, maybe 8-9 per kg.

elperello

Geuze wrote: »

Just to note that I'm fairly sure that refers to retail supermarket / shop prices, not pub/hotel prices.

Yes I think you are right there.

Of course the MUP which is a big threat to people who enjoy a drink at home will only affect off sales.

BuilderPlumber

elperello wrote: »

http://alcoholireland.ie/

Have a look in the long grass!

These guys and others are working away at getting the politicians to increase the price you pay for your bottle of wine or case of beer.

This website proposes the usual old drivel. It is a campaign to sell us the idea that cheap alcohol is harmful and that dearer drink and stopping alcohol sponsorship of events will somehow end alcohol abuse. It will not and in fact such measures will end many festivals and sporting events that will ironically have a huge affect on ... pubs! With less festivals and sporting events sponsorship, these cannot go on as frequently and that means no one will go out and will still buy supermarket drink that will always be cheaper anyway even if prices as raised. Lose/Lose for all.

Muahahaha

Some activity by the Vintners Association on lobbying.ie

Lobbied the Dept of Health concerning Minimum Alcohol Pricing
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/3584/licensed-vintners-association

Lobbied the Dept of Health "That all outlets supplying food would have toilet facilities"
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/1014/vintners-federation-of-ireland
Most likely an attempt to prevent shops and petrol stations selling food

Lobbied the Dept of Finance for "Maintaining the current hospitality VAT Rate; Increasing the VAT Threshold from €75,000 to €110,000; Reducing the Excise level on alcohol
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/6597/vintners-federation-of-ireland

Lobbied the Dept of Justice for "Implementation of minimum unit pricing and segregation of alcohol from other products in supermarkets and shops"
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/6598/vintners-federation-of-ireland

There you have it folks. On one hand they want minimum pricing because of their concerns for public health and then on the other they want excise on alcohol to come down out of concern for their wallets.

The hypocrisy of them has to be seen to be believed but its all there in black and white

Fleawuss

Muahahaha wrote: »

Some activity by the Vintners Association on lobbying.ie

Lobbied the Dept of Health concerning Minimum Alcohol Pricing
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/3584/licensed-vintners-association

Lobbied the Dept of Health "That all outlets supplying food would have toilet facilities"
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/1014/vintners-federation-of-ireland
Most likely an attempt to prevent shops and petrol stations selling food

Lobbied the Dept of Finance for "Maintaining the current hospitality VAT Rate; Increasing the VAT Threshold from €75,000 to €110,000; Reducing the Excise level on alcohol
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/6597/vintners-federation-of-ireland

Lobbied the Dept of Justice for "Implementation of minimum unit pricing and segregation of alcohol from other products in supermarkets and shops"
https://www.lobbying.ie/return/6598/vintners-federation-of-ireland

There you have it folks. On one hand they want minimum pricing because of their concerns for public health and then on the other they want excise on alcohol to come down out of concern for their wallets.

The hypocrisy of them has to be seen to be believed but its all there in black and white

Excellent summary. All lobbying by private enterprise groups has one goal: maximising profit. Nothing wrong with that as long as it takes place with the clear understanding that everyone sees through the posturing and profit taking is balanced through other mechanisms for the social good.

elperello

Fleawuss wrote: »

Excellent summary. All lobbying by private enterprise groups has one goal: maximising profit. Nothing wrong with that as long as it takes place with the clear understanding that everyone sees through the posturing and profit taking is balanced through other mechanisms for the social good.

The post shines a light on the ongoing campaign by medics, the pub lobby and others to make us pay more for drinks at home.

If you go into a supermarket to buy a case of beer or a bottle of wine you should be able to buy it at the best price the market delivers. They want to rig the market to make you pay more, plain and simple.

Billy86

Geuze wrote: »

2L milk in Ireland is 1.49.

Cheddar is from 6.00 per kg in supermarkets, own-brand, large pack.

Sliced, smaller pack, maybe 8-9 per kg.

I'm in Canada - min pricing on dairy (and I think eggs and chicken, given 1kg of raw chicken will set you back $20-odd)! It is an amazing pain in the arse, if you see 2l of milk for under $4.50 (3.10 Euro) or 200g of cheese for under $5.00 (3.50 Euro) you almost have to jump on it out of principle, so much so that when cheese is on sale around that place most limit it to only 4 per customer.

Then you have to add 13% on top of that for the sales tax (if you've never been to the US/Canada, the b*stards basically don't include their version of VAT in the price on the shelf!!)

Would drive you f***ing nuts, I tell ya! Moving back in the autumn and I'll be bathing in milk and chicken wings. Because maybe I'm just into that kind of thing.

Dravokivich

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm in Canada - min pricing on dairy (and I think eggs and chicken, given 1kg of raw chicken will set you back $20-odd)! It is an amazing pain in the arse, if you see 2l of milk for under $4.50 (3.10 Euro) or 200g of cheese for under $5.00 (3.50 Euro) you almost have to jump on it out of principle, so much so that when cheese is on sale around that place most limit it to only 4 per customer.

Then you have to add 13% on top of that for the sales tax (if you've never been to the US/Canada, the b*stards basically don't include their version of VAT in the price on the shelf!!)

Would drive you f***ing nuts, I tell ya! Moving back in the autumn and I'll be bathing in milk and chicken wings. Because maybe I'm just into that kind of thing.

:eek:

Any reasons presented for that? It seems a bit crazy to me. I'm guessing it's to counter act the higher prices associated with organic/free range goods, so requiring the goods to be higher priced regardless would mean people will buy organic/free range?

Billy86

Dravokivich wrote: »

:eek:

Any reasons presented for that? It seems a bit crazy to me. I'm guessing it's to counter act the higher prices associated with organic/free range goods, so requiring the goods to be higher priced regardless would mean people will buy organic/free range?

Apparently minimum pricing brought in during the Great Depression that had a huge role in things not being as bad as the US. But the problem is... they never got rid of it. A litre of heavy cream is about $8-10 (and this is the cheaper/budget brands). It is one major gripe with this country... in the US, people 'eat out' for dinner etc quite often because the $2.15 min wage for waiting staff can make it more affordable. In Canada, people do it not because it's cheap, but because eating at home is almost every bit as expensive.

Never seen anything like it! Like I (think I?) said... when I get back I'll be living exclusively on dairy, eggs and poultry for a month!

BobMc

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm in Canada - min pricing on dairy (and I think eggs and chicken, given 1kg of raw chicken will set you back $20-odd)! It is an amazing pain in the arse, if you see 2l of milk for under $4.50 (3.10 Euro) or 200g of cheese for under $5.00 (3.50 Euro) you almost have to jump on it out of principle, so much so that when cheese is on sale around that place most limit it to only 4 per customer.

Then you have to add 13% on top of that for the sales tax (if you've never been to the US/Canada, the b*stards basically don't include their version of VAT in the price on the shelf!!)

Would drive you f***ing nuts, I tell ya! Moving back in the autumn and I'll be bathing in milk and chicken wings. Because maybe I'm just into that kind of thing.

I like the fact the sales tax is added at the till, over here its forgotten that nearly 1/4 of the price is VAT, if you got to the till here and the asked for another 2.30 on a tenner for VAT people would be a little more outraged and perhaps our VAT rate would be reduced. Anyhow I digress, I'm sticking with my homebrew as long as they dont increase the costs on that !!!

Billy86

BobMc wrote: »

I like the fact the sales tax is added at the till, over here its forgotten that nearly 1/4 of the price is VAT, if you got to the till here and the asked for another 2.30 on a tenner for VAT people would be a little more outraged and perhaps our VAT rate would be reduced. Anyhow I digress, I'm sticking with my homebrew as long as they dont increase the costs on that !!!

Nah, I far rather being able to know with solid accuracy how much the total cost of what everything is as I go, including my total shop. Nothing worse than getting a bunch of 5 and 10c coins together (as they accumulate like nothing else! Is it just me, or has that been a thing in Ireland since the 1c coins vanished too?), and going down to buy some random junk for or milk/eggs etc out of them, totting it all up beforehand, and still coming up a few cents short because of the tax.

The real issue in Canada as well, they're not fully sure if they're American or European, so some places list the sales tax and some don't. If you've never been to a place before, apart from the odd food place that says if it is included or not, you're pretty much guaranteed to not know if the listed prices include it or not. Your only real giveaway is if something has a weird price like $3.37 or something along those lines, which obviously is before tax.

hatrickpatrick

Scottish court just ruled in favour of the legality of minimum pricing. X-post from Politics Cafe:

Well, f*ck. :mad:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/minimum-alcohol-pricing-moves-closer-after-scottish-court-ruling-1.2838220

The introduction of a minimum price for alcohol in Ireland has moved a step closer following a decision by a Scottish court backing the measure.

The Court of Sessions in Edinburgh has ruled against a challenge by the Scotch whisky industry, which claimed minimum unit pricing breached European law.
The decision paves the way for the Scottish parliament to implement the policy, which has been delayed by legal challenges since 2012.

It also diminishes the legal threat to similar Irish legislation, which has been delayed but is due back in the Seanad next week.

And

The Scotch Whisky Association brought a challenge claiming the measure was a breach of trade law. It said other policies should be considered as an alternative to minimum pricing, including an increase in tax.
However, the Scottish court found the advantage of the proposed system was that it was linked to the strength of alcohol.

The alternative of increasing tax, with or without a ban on below cost sales, would be less effective than minimum pricing, it said.

The issue of minimum pricing was referred to the European Court of Justice, which ruled last December that European law may have been breached.
However, the court said it was ultimately up to national courts to make the decision about whether to implement it.

Apparently it can still be challenged in the UK supreme court. How bollocksed are we now in terms of this? Everybody, including legal folk on the Legal Discussion forum, was pretty confident that the ECJ ruling had effectively blocked this legislation, the fact that the Scottish court ruled in favour of it does not seem to bode well for us.

I wonder is there any chance of FF abstaining or blocking the legislation? Could the new minority government arrangement be a last line of defense against this?

Old Bill

This will just be another tax on the poor.

Grayson

BobMc wrote: »

I like the fact the sales tax is added at the till, over here its forgotten that nearly 1/4 of the price is VAT, if you got to the till here and the asked for another 2.30 on a tenner for VAT people would be a little more outraged and perhaps our VAT rate would be reduced. Anyhow I digress, I'm sticking with my homebrew as long as they dont increase the costs on that !!!

I'd prefer to know how much I have to pay before I get to the till

hynesie08

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The Court of Sessions

Not really living up to the name are they?

Joe Don Dante

5.70 now in Ennis for lager

cj maxx

I haven't read all the previous posts but my 2 cents on minimum pricing. I used to live on the Dublin Road in newry. In October/ November when booze deals were on , the amount of D , Ke,Ky,C reg cars was unbelievable. All with slabs of beer , cases of spirits/wine and being laughed at.The pub trade is dying in rural Ireland due to drink driving awareness. In the cities its because of pricing . I have no sympathy for publicans either. But the cost of business in Ireland is astronomical.

GoneHome

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/69851281#Comment_69851281

100% on this post, I know here in our local villag(here in rural Co Limerick, two pubs in the village, every Saturday evening and Sunday afternoon both pubs are packed for Liverpool/Manchester/Arsnel matches, its the main event of the weekend (well apart from when the hurling matches start in May or June)