The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

p

I believe one a large upfront cost of running a pub is the cost of the licence itself, since you can buy & sell them. This creates a false economy and discourages innovtion & new thinking with pubs, and fosters a slow 'old guard' approach to the industry. Licences should be granted to individuals or businesses for a nominal cost based on their ability to run a decent establishment, rather than their ability to purely purchase a licence.

Reform of the licensing laws would rejuvinate the industry and allow new models (that don't just involve encouraging everyone to get plastered) and would be good for everyone in the country, except for existing publicans.

ArtSmart

Fitzerb wrote: »

You are assuming that every publican is purchasing his beer in Tesco, that is not the case. Some are but the majority are not. If they were all to do that the business would lose hundreds of jobs through the wholesaler sector. One the problems that the license trade has (of its own making) is that they under invested in the comfort of the premises and when the drinking habits started to change they then had to re invest at a time when building costs were extreme. I think a bar man will earn a far higher wage then any Tesco employee on the till and wages are a big driver of costs. Look at the price of SKY TV for a Publican, I did hear it and while I cant remember the cost but it runs into thousands a year. You will notice a small pint emblem in the corner on Sky TV in a pub.
There is nothing wrong with the jobs in Tesco but let me tell you that Tesco will wait until the alcohol trade is crippled in Ireland and when the market is cornered they will change their pricing structure.
Speak to people who work in the FMCG sector in Ireland and ask what support Irish industry is receiving from Tesco.

agree with all of that. these large supermkts have serious downsides.

but as i say. pubs are not in comp with supermkts

the issue isnt consumption of alcohol - even for alcoholics (if it were, they'd never step inside a pub)

ardinn

Dr_Phil wrote: »

No, let them go. Expensive, loud places with no atmosphere full of noise, TV's and ar5eholes.

Some are expensive - some loud - some have amazing atmosphere - Find one you like or just dont go to any as I assume you dont but, dont just dismiss the livelyhoods of 1000's of people. Some/allot of people enjoy socializing out in bars pubs and clubs

ArtSmart

p wrote: »

I believe one a large upfront cost of running a pub is the cost of the licence itself, since you can buy & sell them. This creates a false economy and discourages innovtion & new thinking with pubs, and fosters a slow 'old guard' approach to the industry. Licences should be granted to individuals or businesses for a nominal cost based on their ability to run a decent establishment, rather than their ability to purely purchase a licence.

Reform of the licensing laws would rejuvinate the industry and allow new models (that don't just involve encouraging everyone to get plastered) and would be good for everyone in the country, except for existing publicans.

i waas amazed to find in Melbourne in OZ that they do it that way. they're be a revolution if they tried that here.
literally.

HellFireClub

ArtSmart wrote: »

there are legal restrictions involved - they cant buy from supermkts and there are other restrictions. BUT, that's not really the point

the pub IS NOT IN COMPETITION with supermkts.

that's like saying restaurants are in comp with supermkts bec people eat at home.

The moment that, with respect to any consumers particular level of income, it becomes too expensive or unaffordable to go out to a pub to drink, then the pub IS competing with the multiples. I used to go out to a pub with mates twice a week at least, I think I've been in a pub 3-4 times in the last 12 months, I just can't afford to go out and spend my whole weekend in a pub, I can however afford to get a few cans for the weekend or midweek and drag my mates over, some of whom are also unable to afford to go out, because the cost of going out has not decreased in line with the fall in their incomes due to taxes and pay cuts eating into their income, so their spending power, like my own, has been more or less demolished!

I'm not making any of this stuff up, so if the same economic rules that I that I'm living under are not in operation for you and this whole recession thing is passing you by, well that's great to hear but I'm not going to spend the rest of the night on here speaking the blinding f*cking obvious...

Also I'm not aware of any legal restrictions on where a publican can buy supplies from.

Naikon

HellFireClub wrote: »

As a consumer, I'm really not interested in where they are getting their supplies from. Consumers are fickle creatures and when they go out for a pint, they go out to enjoy themselves, not start an argument with their barman as to where he is getting his supplies from

All I'm prepared to concern myself with as a punter, is the quality of the product and the cost of me. It is a well known fact that many publicans are going up the north to buy cheap bottles of alcohol or at this stage the prices are so cheap in the multiples, they don't even have to go up north to get the best price to them.

The issue is not where they are buying them, the issue continues to be what they are trying to sell them for and the market isn't running with any of it! So what do these folks so??? They try to lean on the government to come out and politically meddle in the market to drive up the sale price for their competitors?!?

Ignorance is not a defence. I bet you are the guy that complains about everything. When I have had to work as a barman I simply told people like yourself to take their
custom elsewhere. Your argument is based on the presumption that all publicans are thieving bastards, who buy all their beer from tesco or up north. This is NOT the case
in most places. I will never forget the guy that complained religiously about the price of squash. Do you want to know the real reason why squash is overpriced? It's to stop
people asking for tap water and a splash of squash, then sitting there for hours and not contributing much to the till. A pub is a money making establishment.

oppenheimer1

ardinn wrote:

Just so you know it costs €600 per month for a sky subscription for a pub.

I cancelled mine this morning, meaning I will now not be able to offer the sports coverage alot of my customers demand. further reducing patrons, further pushing me towards the door.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't know how it could push you further towards the door. If the cost of having Sky in was greater than the amount of custom/profit it generates then surely you're better off without it?

Conversely you wouldn't have got rid of it if it was profitable to have it there.

So can you explain how you will be worse off without it?

Just wondering ardinn if you could respond to this? Genuinely interested in your answer.

Naikon

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just wondering ardinn if you could respond to this? Genuinely interested in your answer.

I am not in the liberty to announce costs, but I can state it's far, far higher than 600 in any medium sized establishment. Multiple licences and extras like Setanta for multiple screens do not come cheap to commercial establishments.

ArtSmart

HellFireClub wrote: »

The moment that, with respect to any consumers particular level of income, it becomes too expensive or unaffordable to go out to a pub to drink, then the pub IS competing with the multiples. I used to go out to a pub with mates twice a week at least, I think I've been in a pub 3-4 times in the last 12 months, I just can't afford to go out and spend my whole weekend in a pub, I can however afford to get a few cans for the weekend or midweek and drag my mates over, some of whom are also unable to afford to go out, because the cost of going out has not decreased in line with the fall in their incomes due to taxes and pay cuts eating into their income, so their spending power, like my own, has been more or less demolished!

I'm not making any of this stuff up, so if the same economic rules that I that I'm living under are not in operation for you and this whole recession thing is passing you by, well that's great to hear but I'm not going to spend the rest of the night on here speaking the blinding f*cking obvious...

Also I'm not aware of any legal restrictions on where a publican can buy supplies from.

yes, pub drink is too expensive.

but what i'm saying is that the comparison between supermkts selling beer and pubs selling beer doesnt hold up.

if beer were the only issue - NO sane person would step inside a pub

so the vitners argument is invalid. across the world, supermkt beer is cheaper than pub / restaurant beer/ wine but the publicans there arent ranting bout the supermkts.

the issue is that pubs in Ireland opened their doors and sat back. in a world with limited options - that was all that was required.

but the world / consumer has changed. THAT is the issue.

people will pay for anything they perceive is of an appropriate value - at the mo, beer in pubs isnt seen as good value.

Fitzerb

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just wondering ardinn if you could respond to this? Genuinely interested in your answer.

More important I would like to see Hell Fire respond to it

Naikon

ArtSmart wrote: »

yes, pub drink is too expensive.

but what i'm saying is that the comparison between supermkts selling beer and pubs selling beer doesnt hold up.

if beer were the only issue - NO sane person would step inside a pub

so the vitners argument is invalid. across the world, supermkt beer is cheaper than pub / restaurant beer/ wine but the publicans there arent ranting bout the supermkts.

the issue is that pubs opened their doors and sat back. in a world with limited options - that was all that was required.

but the world / consumer has changed. THAT is the issue.

people will pay for anything they perceive is of an appropriate value - at the mo, beer in pubs isnt seen as good value.

Did you ever consider the other aspects of the pub than just the drink though?. Do you agree that a really good pub with live entertainment and good banter may just be a nice change from skulling buckfast/cans in your gaff everynight?

Liamario

My pub facts:
If you can't stay in business, you shut shop.
If people needed you as much you like to think they do, you're business will be fine.
There are way too many pubs anyways.
The prices are too high.
People drink too much in this country. One less water source can only be a good thing.

All this is irrelevant if the government bow to pressure from a group that has way too much power as it is.

My suggestion:- get the church and the vintners association together for a joint venture. Both venues allow singing, praying, sexual assault and very loud men talking out of their arses.

ardinn

double post

ArtSmart

Naikon wrote: »

Did you ever consider the other aspects of the pub than just the drink though?. Do you agree that a really good pub with live entertainment and good banter may just be a nice change from skulling buckfast/cans in your gaff everynight?

of course - that is the very point i'm making

so the vitners claim that supermkts have an unfair competitive adv is inaccurate.
cos the pub is not simply a palce one buys beer - if it was, why would anyone go there when they could buy beer for a fraction of the price in a supermkt?

HellFireClub

Naikon wrote: »

Ignorance is not a defence. I bet you are the guy that complains about everything. When I have had to work as a barman I simply told people like yourself to take their
custom elsewhere. Your argument is based on the presumption that all publicans are thieving bastards, who buy all their beer from tesco or up north. This is NOT the case
in most places. I will never forget the guy that complained religiously about the price of squash. Do you want to know the real reason why squash is overpriced? It's to stop
people asking for tap water and a splash of squash, then sitting there for hours and not contributing much to the till. A pub is a money making establishment at the end of the day.

I complain about sweet f*ck all, I don't do complaining, I simply vote with my feet and I don't go back, same as most other people in the country are doing when they run into poor value, hence why so many pubs are closing!

I've already told you, I don't care where the publican buys his supplies from, once they represent value for me, relative to what I know I can get the same product elsewhere on the market for!

I really don't know where you are getting this uneducated notion from where I would start an argument with a barman over where he gets his supplies from?!? I just don't go to pubs anymore because there is no value to be had in a pub! I can get the same product on the very same terms as the publican so why the f*ck in all seriousness would I pay five times the price for it in a pub where I'd have to wade through an inch of stale p*ss on the jacks floor if I want to go to the toilet?!?

Your attitude about the guy with the glass of squash really says it all about the attitude of the publican in this sorry little kip of an island. Furthest from your mind is the notion that he might be driving or meeting someone on business in the pub. Furthest from your mind is the notion that if you didn't try to put a f*cking saddle on him at the first opportunity and gave him a bit of value, he might be inclined to come back and spend more money in your premises.

The whole focus is on his short term/once off value as someone to squeeze a Euro out of for something that costs you 5 cent maximum, rather than give him a reason to come back based on you not trying to climb up his arse from the moment he walks into the premises...

ardinn

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just wondering ardinn if you could respond to this? Genuinely interested in your answer.

Sorry - I didnt see it.

It does contribute to cash-flow and I just tried to absorb it - Its probably something in my head that I thought I needed to offer my customers - which I think I do - but the reality that it is just not viable to sustain has set in.

There is nothing worse or more heart-wrenching than having a few people walk in to your pub and ask are you showing the match, and when you say no - watching them walk away. I have had to do it at times when I couldnt pay the sky bill and its actually crushing.

ebixa82

I have sympathy for the rural pubs who are going out of business despite charging fair prices compared to Dublin pubs as well as providing a much more important social function.

However, like the music industry, people are no longer willing to pay for the product the way they used to, and in order to survive they need to change their business model.

The success of any pub will depend on their ability to do this.

One example I have seen is that utter sh.it hole Dicey Reilly's on Hardcore St.

Every drink 2e on Tuesdays, 3e on Wednesday, 4e on Thursday etc.

The place is rammed every night (mainly with Spanish and Brazilians), they are obviously attempting to make money based on sheer volume of drinks sold and it must be working as they are still doing this afaik.

Naikon

HellFireClub wrote: »

I complain about sweet f*ck all, I don't do complaining, I simply vote with my feet and I don't go back, same as most other people in the country are doing when they run into poor value, hence why so many pubs are closing!

I've already told you, I don't care where the publican buys his supplies from, once they represent value for me, relative to what I know I can get the same product elsewhere on the market for!

I really don't know where you are getting this uneducated notion from where I would start an argument with a barman over where he gets his supplies from?!? I just don't go to pubs anymore because there is no value to be had in a pub! I can get the same product on the very same terms as the publican so why the f*ck in all seriousness would I pay five times the price for it in a pub where I'd have to wade through an inch of stale p*ss on the jacks floor if I want to go to the toilet?!?

Your attitude about the guy with the glass of squash really says it all about the attitude of the publican in this sorry little kip of an island. Furthest from your mind is the notion that he might be driving or meeting someone on business in the pub. Furthest from your mind is the notion that if you didn't try to put a f*cking saddle on him at the first opportunity and gave him a bit of value, he might be inclined to come back and spend more money in your premises.

The whole focus is on his short term/once off value as someone to squeeze a Euro out of for something that costs you 5 cent maximum, rather than give him a reason to come back based on you not trying to climb up his arse from the moment he walks into the premises...

I could not care less what you do with your money. I am just correcting your ill informed notion that most pubs buy all their beer up north or from tesco. Oh, and that most pubs are out to screw the customer any way they can.

oppenheimer1

ardinn wrote: »

Sorry - I didnt see it.

It does contribute to cash-flow and I just tried to absorb it - Its probably something in my head that I thought I needed to offer my customers - which I think I do - but the reality that it is just not viable to sustain has set in.

There is nothing worse or more heart-wrenching than having a few people walk in to your pub and ask are you showing the match, and when you say no - watching them walk away. I have had to do it at times when I couldnt pay the sky bill and its actually crushing.

So its only contributing to turnover really. So in otherwords the income generated by having Sky doesn't cover the cost of providing the service. Therefore cancelling Sky would lead to a net gain for the business despite shrinking turnover.

Therefore canceling it is a positive business decision and not one to be regretted. (If I'm understanding this correctly)

DB10

Naikon wrote: »

I could not care less what you do with your money. I am just correcting your ill informed notion that most pubs buy all their beer up north or from tesco. Oh, and that most pubs are out to screw the customer any way they can.

Why so defensive?

Clearly you either own, or manage a pub. It's quite pathetic you are ashamed to even admit it.

ardinn

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So its only contributing to turnover really. So in otherwords the income generated by having Sky doesn't cover the cost of providing the service. Therefore cancelling Sky would lead to a net gain for the business despite shrinking turnover.

Therefore canceling it is a positive business decision and not one to be regretted. (If I'm understanding this correctly)

Exactly - but - I regret not being able to provide it any longer.

ArtSmart

ardinn wrote: »

Sorry - I didnt see it.

It does contribute to cash-flow and I just tried to absorb it - Its probably something in my head that I thought I needed to offer my customers - which I think I do - but the reality that it is just not viable to sustain has set in.

There is nothing worse or more heart-wrenching than having a few people walk in to your pub and ask are you showing the match, and when you say no - watching them walk away. I have had to do it at times when I couldnt pay the sky bill and its actually crushing.

that is tough - heartbreaking as you say.

but there are people out there who dont want sport in a pub - quite a lot (me included)
define you're desired mkt (customer) clearly and cater to them fully - in this case, rule out avid sports fans . i think trying to please to many will result in resource diffusion.

ps, i have to say, simple things go a long way in a small pub - a few sambos, attention to customer indiv needs etc. hope it improves for you

Naikon

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So its only contributing to turnover really. So in otherwords the income generated by having Sky doesn't cover the cost of providing the service. Therefore cancelling Sky would lead to a net gain for the business despite shrinking turnover.

Therefore canceling it is a positive business decision and not one to be regretted. (If I'm understanding this correctly)

Where I have worked, no sky would simply be financial suicide. Seriously, sky is well overpriced in commerical joints, yet it is a required evil for customers. I have come across punters that would literally go somewhere elese without setanta as an option. Believe me, sky has a monopoly on pub television and they know how to exploit it.

starbelgrade

ardinn wrote: »

Please give us some examples of what you would do - honestly - i'd like to hear some ideas.
.

OK. Hopefully this might be more constructive!

There are many issues which can be addressed - a lot of them are basics, which your customers will be able to tell you... many of them have already been suggested here. They are part of the equation, but your biggest hurdle is price.

To address this, you & your fellow publicans need to seriously get organised, get active & get hard balling. You spend millions of punts every year on stock - there is no reason why you cannot use your combined purchasing power to reduce the cost of supplies.... none at all. The only thing preventing you is lack of organisation. This is not price fixing, as you are only trying to fix the price you purchase at, not the price you are selling at.

The more publicans you get on board, the stronger hand you will have to play against the suppliers. As you gain more members it will start to snowball as no-one will want to be left out of an organisation that have the possibility of getting them cheaper supplies. Who would want to be left out of that equation?

And if Diageo don't play ball, find alternative, cheaper suppliers. They'll soon be back at you doors, begging for your business.

It is a long term solution & not a quick fix, but it is not a short term problem. Until publicans seriously address the issue of price, it doesn't matter what food you serve or how clean your toilets are, you are fighting a losing battle.

Naikon

DB10 wrote: »

Why so defensive?

Clearly you either own, or manage a pub. It's quite pathetic you are ashamed to even admit it.

It's the internet after all. I become defensive when people talk crap about pubs in general without the facts to back up their assertions. Yes, there are plenty of rogue pubs out there overcharging people, but do you think it's fair to apply this blanket logic to every single pub out there? Misinformation is not good.

HellFireClub

Naikon wrote: »

I could not care less what you do with your money. I am just correcting your ill informed notion that most pubs buy all their beer up north or from tesco. Oh, and that most pubs are out to screw the customer any way they can.

For the third and last time, I believe in open and unrestricted markets. As a consumer, I actually expect you to head to Newry and buy your supplies up there if they are cheaper for comparable quality, that's called competition which I genuinely really believe in.

I also expect you to be competitive for the purposes of giving me back some value, while I respect your right to generate a reasonable and fair margin for yourself, for the purposes of building up a business that is sustainable in the long term. I don't begrudge you that and neither do most Irish people. I get the impression that I'm speaking in an economic language here that you not be able to actually comprehend so I'm not going to keep repeating myself, being fair to you, if you cannot actualy understand the basic fundamentals of how consumer markets actually work.

You've just admitted yourself in your post about the customer wanting a glass of squash, that the whole focus where you worked was on identifying the customer as a device to deliver a short term/once off profit, rather than identifying him as a potential long term customer who could be brought/incentivised into the business as a long term and LOYAL source of revenue.

It's obvious enough that we are speaking two different languages here so there is no point in us trying to discuss it any further.

ArtSmart

Naikon wrote: »

Where I have worked, no sky would simply be financial suicide. Seriously, sky is well overpriced in commerical joints, yet it is a required evil for customers. I have come across punters that would literally go somewhere elese without setanta as an option. Believe me, sky has a monopoly on pub television and they know how to exploit it.

well there's something the VFI could act on - lot more tangible and logical than what they're currently suggesting.

either act in force to reduce price or if there is a competitor option go with them

ardinn

ArtSmart wrote: »

that is tough - heartbreaking as you say.

but there are people out there who dont want sport in a pub - quite a lot (me included)
define you're desired mkt (customer) clearly and cater to them fully - in this case, rule out avid sports fans . i think trying to please to many will result in resource diffusion.

ps, i have to say, simple things go a long way in a small pub - a few sambos, attention to customer indiv needs etc. hope it improves for you

I know what your saying - but the vast majority have an interest. We have a full menu where we are - we offer a selection of world beers - a wine selection of at least 10 whites and reds at 1/4 btl and 7 each on the wine list so selection is no problem. Its price - and I just cant afford to bring it down yet tesco is selling it a major losses. So trying to stop the below cost selling is one way to just even out the playing field. But it's never going to be popular with consumers. Why would it be - further making the publican out to be a greedy so and so.

Did ye ever feel like you just cant win??

Thanks by the way

Naikon

HellFireClub wrote: »

For the third and last time, I believe in open and unrestricted markets. As a consumer, I actually expect you to head to Newry and buy your supplies up there if they are cheaper for comparable quality, that's called competition which I genuinely really believe in.

I also expect you to be competitive for the purposes of giving me back some value, while I respect your right to generate a reasonable and fair margin for yourself, for the purposes of building up a business that is sustainable in the long term. I don't begrudge you that and neither do most Irish people. I get the impression that I'm speaking in an economic language here that you not be able to actually comprehend so I'm not going to keep repeating myself, being fair to you, if you cannot actualy understand the basic fundamentals of how consumer markets actually work.

You've just admitted yourself in your post about the customer wanting a glass of squash, that the whole focus where you worked was on identifying the customer as a device to deliver a short term/once off profit, rather than identifying him as a potential long term customer who could be brought/incentivised into the business as a long term and LOYAL source of revenue.

It's obvious enough that we are speaking two different languages here so there is no point in us trying to discuss it any further.

I thought you just told me that as a consumer, you don't care about such issues?. Seriously, you can't expect pubs to be supplied by domestic retailers like Tesco. It's just not a viable practice. End of.
Commercial competition is largely seperated into domestic and commercial sectors after all. I suppose Musgrave should let regular tesco shoppers shop there each week, even though it's not for domestic use?

ardinn

ArtSmart wrote: »

well there's something the VFI could act on - lot more tangible and logical than what they're currently suggesting.

either act in force to reduce price or if there is a competitor option go with them

The VFI has done this and it has been stated by a poster earlier - the result being Sky said they have more subscribers in birmingham than ireland and to sod off.

There is no competitor option. Sky has all the power.