The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

DB10

starbelgrade wrote: »

No - now I'm rolling...

*joins in with headbanging*

They see me rollin'
They hatin'
Patrollin'
they tryin' to catch me ridin. dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
My music so loud;
I'm swangin'.
They hopin'
That they gon' catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.

starbelgrade

Degag wrote: »

Question: Do you think that could or ever would happen?

I don't see why it couldn't. The publicans are the main players in the drinks trade - they have massive purchasing power, but seem unable or unwilling to pool together their resources to do anything about it.

And that is why it probably won't happen.

Biggins

Degag wrote: »

And? I was just stating the figure, no disrespect to you. However, my thoughts about your friend remain.

Well he got out of the game. The stress was killing him - and his relationship with his then girlfriend paid a price too, besides those that worked under him in the property.

HellFireClub

ardinn wrote: »

So you now drink in a place that appreciates its customers - thats great - I appreciate mine and they return - I have never here tried to defend badly managed pubs or ignorant staff. Thats a different issue. but when you said that you've given up on the pub - i was lead to believe that you couldnt find a decent one. So all is not lost.

No I have found a decent one but it isn't one that a lot of my mates would come up for a pint in and I'm no longer prepared to tolerate the standards in their local so my own local gets visted a lot less than my last even though it's a much better pub under many different criteria.

Also, my disposable income is a lot less than what it had been previously, back in the boom it was normal to head to a pub first, spend 50-100 quid, then a taxi to a nightclub, another 50 quid in rounds, and a taxi back home.

The reality now is very different, there are NO taxi's anywhere EVER, and it's 20-30 quid for a night out, lifts to/from the pub are called in everywhere now and if they are not available I don't go out and this is the same with the mates NONE of us do taxi's now.

I fully accept that I'm the kind of customer who is difficult to make money out of at the moment, but there are many many more of me out there who could and would head out a bit more if the value came back into it...

Biggins

Boiled down to brass tacks is this senario:

Supposing the government was going to cave the VFI and force a minimum price for drink in supermarkets (and you know the big chain supermarkets would fight it even if it meant going to the European courts for unfair price fixing and anti-competition interference and such like!) well no matter what price the drink is then at the supermarkets etc... the pub prices in all honesty are not going to change!
People will still in this climate take the cheaper route and if that means still having to pay more - but still less than the pubs - then they will still drink more at home than the licensed premises the VFI is hoping they will pile back into.

Frankly the VFI might as well be chasing ghosts looking for a rescue at that rate.
At the current rate with attempting price fixing via the government, it is not going to eventually make a blind bit of difference - except make the pub trade be hated/put into a bad light even more and people getting worked up say "stuff that", only to stay at home yet again and drink with their friends.

And to repeat myself earlier:
The vintners tried this calling for price fixing stunt before - and were told a resounding "NO".

Its NOT to just set a minimum, its seen by many to stop other drink sellers OUTSIDE of the vintners association, those who refuse to adopt an unofficial price rate across the board (under cutting in on their higher drink prices) but sell cheaper.
If a legal minimum is set, some vintners win double (besides getting some direct fallout from closed cheaper pubs) in that they kill some of the cheaper competition and if some are still able to keep going, then report their competition if a cheaper bar is anywhere in their locality to one of their members, for selling cheaper drink!

ardinn

HellFireClub wrote: »

No I have found a decent one but it isn't one that a lot of my mates would come up for a pint in and I'm no longer prepared to tolerate the standards in their local so my own local gets visted a lot less than my last even though it's a much better pub under many different criteria.

Also, my disposable income is a lot less than what it had been previously, back in the boom it was normal to head to a pub first, spend 50-100 quid, then a taxi to a nightclub, another 50 quid in rounds, and a taxi back home.

The reality now is very different, there are NO taxi's anywhere EVER, and it's 20-30 quid for a night out, lifts to/from the pub are called in everywhere now and if they are not available I don't go out and this is the same with the mates NONE of us do taxi's now.

I fully accept that I'm the kind of customer who is difficult to make money out of at the moment, but there are many many more of me out there who could and would head out a bit more if the value came back into it...

There are places that try to address this - I purchased an 8 seater minibus to bring my customers home - even tho I cannot claim it as an commercial vehicle and get the vat back - I'll collect groups of 4 or more if I can. Has no pub in your area tried this? It seems allot are at the moment

Degag

Judging by that last post, you have a bigger problem with taxis than with pubs.

bobsoice23

No wonder the pubs are losing business,5 euro a pint is just wrong weather it's in the boom or recession.The supermarkets are playing it perfectly at the moment.And this minimum price thing sounds fking corrupt to me...let's deny people of value and rip everyone off the same amount sure!Much like the budget...hitting everyone and only caring about the bottom line.
I'd love to see the comparison between Ireland and the rest of Europe regarding alcohol prices..we'd definately be top 5 anyway.

Degag

ardinn wrote: »

There are places that try to address this - I purchased an 8 seater minibus to bring my customers home - even tho I cannot claim it as an commercial vehicle and get the vat back - I'll collect groups of 4 or more if I can. Has no pub in your area tried this? It seems allot are at the moment

Fair play to you.

TheUsual

Jesus Christ - the amount of moaning going on here from pub-managers and VFI representatives is appalling. Oh woe is me.

Don't change the subject about why your establishments are empty.
Blame EVERYONE else like Sky and us idiot muppets for not acting like sheep, and just face the real problem which is "Why should I pay 5 euro a pint to pay off your loans, mortgages, cars and bad investments ?"

Now ask yourselves do you want to shut down or accept less profit on alcohol but sell a lot more of it at a lower cost.
But, oh dear, the VFI will not let you do that.

Degag

bobsoice23 wrote: »

No wonder the pubs are losing business,5 euro a pint is just wrong weather it's in the boom or recession.The supermarkets are playing it perfectly at the moment.And this minimum price thing sounds fking corrupt to me...let's deny people of value and rip everyone off the same amount sure!Much like the budget...hitting everyone and only caring about the bottom line.
I'd love to see the comparison between Ireland and the rest of Europe regarding alcohol prices..we'd definately be top 5 anyway.

Cost of living, minimum wage etc - we'd be top 5 too. It all contributes.

Degag

TheUsual wrote: »

Jesus Christ - the amount of moaning going on here from pub-managers and VFI representatives is appalling. Oh woe is me.

Don't change the subject about why your establishments are empty.
Blame EVERYONE else like Sky and us idiot muppets for not acting like sheep, and just face the real problem which is "Why should I pay 5 euro a pint to pay off your loans, mortgages, cars and bad investments ?"

Now ask yourselves do you want to shut down or accept less profit on alcohol but sell a lot more of it at a lower cost.
But, oh dear, the VFI will not let you do that.

Stop talking shíte. The VFI have nothing to do with setting prices.

ardinn

TheUsual wrote: »

Jesus Christ - the amount of moaning going on here from pub-managers and VFI representatives is appalling. Oh woe is me.

Don't change the subject about why your establishments are empty.
Blame EVERYONE else like Sky and us idiot muppets for not acting like sheep, and just face the real problem which is "Why should I pay 5 euro a pint to pay off your loans, mortgages, cars and bad investments ?"

Now ask yourselves do you want to shut down or accept less profit on alcohol but sell a lot more of it at a lower cost.
But, oh dear, the VFI will not let you do that.

I dont charge near 5 euro for a pint - Im 27 - i have no investments I have no flash car or mortgage - im renting - AND BACK UP where the VFI states that a pub has to charge a minimum price!!! Or are you ACTUALLY A SHEEP that believes the other posters here who have said thats the case. I can assure you I know what im talking about and hav not come her to :

A - LOOK FOR SYMPATHY
B - PASS THE BLAME
C - BE RIDICULED BY YOU.

HellFireClub

Biggins wrote: »

Boiled down to brass tacks is this senario:

Supposing the government was going to cave the VFI and force a minimum price for drink in supermarkets (and you know the big chain supermarkets would fight it even if it ment going to the European courts for unfair price fixing and anti-competition interfearance and such like!) well no matter what price the drink is then at the supermarkets etc... the pub prices in all honesty are not going to change!
People will still in this climate take the cheaper route and if that means still having to pay more - but still less than the pubs - then they will still drink more at home than the licenced premises the VFI is hoping they will pile back into.

Frankly the VFI might as well be chasing ghosts looking for a rescue at that rate.
At the current rate with attempting price fixing via the governement, is is not going to eventaullay make a blind bit of difference - except make the pub trade be hated/put into a bad light even more and people getting worked up say "stuff that", only to stay at home yet again and drink with their friends.

All they've managed to do now with the latest attempt to try to force/scare the government into undertaking some political meddling to drive up the price for off license sales, is to anger people even more.

These guys are starting to really remind me of Jack O' Connor with his Frontline quip about taxing "trophy houses", or around the time himself and David Begg were telling the whole country via the media that there would be no cuts to public sector pay but that the savings would be found instead through "identifying efficiencies"... Then Lenihan came out and said their pay had been cut because the public appitite for any more closed room agreements with powerful vested interests had completely run out, if the government had run with the unions at the time and not cut their pay, there would have been serious civil unrest in this country.

I believe the same is true here for political hankering with off license sales prices and fixing those prices, many people now are broke and the one saving grace they have is that they might have a tenner a week or something to get a few cans with. Any attempt to push up the price of a drink for those who can never afford to go to a pub, in order to pacify a few publicans who have simply priced themselves out of the market, I reckon would be a risky move to make in the current times...

bobsoice23

Doesn't necessarily make it right or fair Degag.

Biggins

Degag wrote: »

Stop talking shíte. The VFI have nothing to do with setting prices.

Are they not asking (again!) for them to be set then at a minimum?
I though that was called trying to set prices! Just a point.
O' and I've personally seen reps from the VFI (when they called into my friend, the now ex-bar lease holder in Slane) coming in and stating that "this should be your minimum price for this drink and that drink".
And they weren't talking lightly, they were making it clear what they said, was said strongly.

bobsoice23

Looks like I've gotta take a trip to Carlow ardinn..not near 5 euro?wowee tell us how much and you might have a new customer:D

Biggins

HellFireClub wrote: »

...I believe the same is true here for political hankering with off license sales prices and fixing those prices, many people now are broke and the one saving grace they have is that they might have a tenner a week or something to get a few cans with. Any attempt to push up the price of a drink for those who can never afford to go to a pub, in order to pacify a few publicans who have simply priced themselves out of the market, I reckon would be a risky move to make in the current times...

You hit a good point (pint!) there.
Any incoming government will not want to anger the masses right away by price fixing, so I suspect that this is a last ditch attempt by the VFI to get FF to do their bidding before they all march out the doors of the Dail for the last time in power.
(And we know there is enough FF TD's with vested interests in the leisure trade too to try and make this fixing possible to their favour!)
All FF need is the Greens to go along with them to allow the motion and that's it, game over - well until the next incoming government comes in and revokes it by will or by court case taken by the big chain supermarkets!

ardinn

Biggins wrote: »

Are they not asking (again!) for them to be set then at a minimum?
I though that was called trying to set prices! Just a point.
O' and I've personally seen reps from the VFI (when they called into my friend, the now ex-bar lease holder) coming in and stating that "this should be your minimum price for this drink and that drink".

Probably guiding the publican as to what his margins should be - thats hardly price fixing - if you went to a business account manager and asked him what you should be charging he would tell you the same - This is how rumours start and probably stories like this is how some very mis-informed people have come to think the VFI is telling people what to charge. If a new publican enters the trade and joins the VFI its their job to advise him - they never told him he had to - simply stated the recommended price - after that he can do what he likes.

Degag

Biggins wrote: »

Are they not asking (again!) for them to be set then at a minimum?
I though that was called trying to set prices! Just a point.
O' and I've personally seen reps from the VFI (when they called into my friend, the now ex-bar lease holder in Slane) coming in and stating that "this should be your minimum price for this drink and that drink".
And they weren't talking lightly, they were making it clear what they said, was said strongly.

They are "trying" to protect the publican by introducing a minimum price. I use quotation marks because they are probably going to achieve the opposite - anyway i doubt that it'll actually happen.

As for your friend, what i would imagine happened was that your friend was selling drink cheaper than his competitors - his competitors complained to the vintners and hence the visit - could this have happened? It is no coincedence that prices of drink in towns is remarkably the same across all the pubs. In alot of towns a minuature cartel is in place. Sad but true.

ardinn

bobsoice23 wrote: »

Looks like I've gotta take a trip to Carlow ardinn..not near 5 euro?wowee tell us how much and you might have a new customer:D

What you havin?

TheUsual

ardinn wrote: »

I dont charge near 5 euro for a pint - Im 27 - i have no investments I have no flash car or mortgage - im renting - AND BACK UP where the VFI states that a pub has to charge a minimum price!!! Or are you ACTUALLY A SHEEP that believes the other posters here who have said thats the case. I can assure you I know what im talking about and hav not come her to :
A - LOOK FOR SYMPATHY
B - PASS THE BLAME
C - BE RIDICULED BY YOU.

Again the "ridiculed by you" , oh "woe is me" melodrama. poor victim of us selfish home drinkers.

Excellent posts on here telling you that if a shop charges the price that a market can support then that shop will be here next year.
You lads will not.

You need to change your business model - and that goes for the VFI too.

ardinn

Degag wrote: »

They are "trying" to protect the publican by introducing a minimum price. I use quotation marks because they are probably going to achieve the opposite - anyway i doubt that it'll actually happen.

As for your friend, what i would imagine happened was that your friend was selling drink cheaper than his competitors - his competitors complained to the vintners and hence the visit - could this have happened? It is no coincedence that prices of drink in towns is remarkably the same across all the pubs. In alot of towns a minuature cartel is in place. Sad but true.

So you believe the vintners do this??

And which towns exactly, and who's involved?

Degag

bobsoice23 wrote: »

Doesn't necessarily make it right or fair Degag.

Perhaps not, but i hate this notion that if a pint in Spain is €2, it should be €2 in Ireland also.

Biggins

Degag wrote: »

They are "trying" to protect the publican by introducing a minimum price. I use quotation marks because they are probably going to achieve the opposite - anyway i doubt that it'll actually happen.

As for your friend, what i would imagine happened was that your friend was selling drink cheaper than his competitors - his competitors complained to the vintners and hence the visit - could this have happened? It is no coincedence that prices of drink in towns is remarkably the same across all the pubs. In alot of towns a miniature cartel is in place. Sad but true.

Thats roughly what happened.
The other pubs in the area of Slane complained that he was undercutting them and the VFI reps then were a constant visitor to have a word with him!
(As if he didn't at the time have enough worries)
He got pissed off with their frequent visits fairly quickly.

TheUsual

Degag wrote: »

Stop talking shíte. The VFI have nothing to do with setting prices.

"Stop talking ****e."


You win the argument. I give up.

The better debater won.

bobsoice23

Heineken or Murphys please!whichever's cheaper

Degag

ardinn wrote: »

So you believe the vintners do this??

And which towns exactly, and who's involved?

*Regarding a cartel, not sure if you want clarification on another point*
It goes on in every town and village where i'm from. In one town, a pub lowered his prices by 20c and the other publicans saw red. The publican in question didn't give a crap because he owned the pub fully anyway, and was already the busiest pub in the town by a considerable margin.

HellFireClub

Biggins wrote: »

You hit a good point (pint!) there.
Any incoming government will not want to anger the masses right away by price fixing, so I suspect that this is a last ditch attempt by the VFI to get FF to do their bidding before they all march out the doors of the Dail for the last time in power.
(And we know there is enough FF TD's with vested interests in the leisure trade too to try and make this fixing possible to their favour!)
All FF need is the Greens to go along with them to allow the motion and that's it, game over - well until the next incoming government comes in and revokes it by will or by court case taken by the big chain supermarkets!

In any event I reckon they are barking up the wrong tree on this one big time, they are dealing with large organisations that will not hessitate to go to the High Court the next day for an injunction. Also I don't believe they are engaged in below cost selling at all, they buy for one price and sell for a higher price, I don't imagine they make much on the bottles of beer but it's not just the Tesco's who have dropped the price of beer, I got 24 cans of Heineken for 25 Euro in Superquinn just before Crimbo, just over a Euro a can at 1.04 Euro a can. If Superquinn had been shut I could have gone to Centra and got 6 cans of the same beer for 10 Euro at 1.66 Euro a can.

The same can in the same Centra shop a year ago was 2.15 Euro or 12.90 Euro for six cans.

So prices thankfully are coming down, at least everywhere but in the pubs it seems...

StupidLikeAFox

Have to agree with the bulk buying argument.

Lets say Diageo sell Product A to the Cash and Carrys at €20, they sell to the vintners at €30 and the vintners sell it on at €35.

Why dont the publicans set up a buying group (similar to SuperValue) which tell Diageo they will buy the product at €20, pass it on to all publicans cost neutral then the publicans are effectively buying direct at a massive discount? Cut out the middleman as such. Prices drop, sales increase etc. Even if they buying group only buy off a cash and carry they can still avail of qty discounts.

Theres a serious lack of inventiveness and innovation in anything the VFI come out with.