The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

ardinn

Degag wrote: »

Why? Just because it's cheap doesn't mean it couldn't be cheaper.

No it doesnt - but there is no point in putting other people out of business and risking any profit you have left out of that price. The price is great value for the consumer and everyone has a share if their is 7 pubs surviving at that level I think thats great for all involved - If you dissolve 2 pubs into the other 5 im sure no extra employment would be created, as volume could probably be catered for and choice of venue is reduced - Why mess with it? Some things are more important than trying to be the cheapest of the cheap - im sure some publicans and allot of consumers in your area realise this.

oppenheimer1

ardinn wrote: »

Im sorry - but maybe im not understaing you -

Your talking about a fictional cartel group that you are unable to prove exists.

You stated publicans have driven out new competition - I stated that tesco have done the same. yet you said that the publicans were a cartel - yet that a multi is not.

If you were saying the publicans met, fixed and implemented a strategy to drive out a new competitor then prove it. If im missing something please explain it and I can clarify what i meant.

When all 10 pubs in a small town charge the exact same for a pint of Guinness, one has to be suspicious. Of course the existace of a cartel would be hard to prove - one assumes its done on a gentlemans agreement and no paperwork is kept. Does anyone actually believe it doesn't go on when the circumstantial evidence is so strong?

HellFireClub

Degag wrote: »

It'll NEVER happen.

I don't expect it to, and on that basis I reckon I'll have changed my drinking habits, businesses like restaurants are giving me much much better value these days so I'd go out for a meal rather than a load of pints, a lot more house parties and the like, it just isn't affordable to pay 5 Euro for a pint in a pub for most people these days... I think the 2 nights in a pub every week is a young lads gig anyway and I'm a bit long in the tooth for it now I think...

Biggins

ardinn wrote: »

Im sorry - but maybe im not understaing you -

Your talking about a fictional cartel group that you are unable to prove exists.

You stated publicans have driven out new competition - I stated that tesco have done the same. yet you said that the publicans were a cartel - yet that a multi is not.

If you were saying the publicans met, fixed and implemented a strategy to drive out a new competitor then prove it. If im missing something please explain it and I can clarify what i meant.

I have said that over may years I have seen pub owners coming together, in the equivalent of might be seen as an unofficial cartel capacity!
Please go back and re-read what I have written - or are you just out to twist my words?

I have seen many meet-ups of publicans getting together over the years - and if anyone tries to tell me they do not discuss any one source of competition contention in their local area - and then chat about what might be done about it, they are living in la-la land or purposely blind and stupid!

I've seen it in Slane, in Drogheda, In Dublin, In Duleek to name a few.

ardinn

Biggins wrote: »

maybe the VFI should be lobbying the goernment more so for changes to things like tax rates, lower public liability insurace rates, water charge rates, vat rates and on and on and on...

Oh god - please give me strength!

Thats exactly what they do. and have done forever. Please know how something works before you go try and fix it!

oppenheimer1

Degag wrote: »

It'll NEVER happen.

Why not? The margin on a €4 pint is in the region of €1.50

HellFireClub

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

When all 10 pubs in a small town charge the exact same for a pint of Guinness, one has to be suspicious. Of course the existace of a cartel would be hard to prove - one assumes its done on a gentlemans agreement and no paperwork is kept. Does anyone actually believe it doesn't go on when the circumstantial evidence is so strong?

The issue here yet again like everything else in this dump is lack of enforcement and the necessary regulation. We have the Competition Authority who has the power to raid offices and seize evidence. They have done it in the motor industry and secured serious convictions at court.

Degag

ardinn wrote: »

No it doesnt - but there is no point in putting other people out of business and risking any profit you have left out of that price. The price is great value for the consumer and everyone has a share if their is 7 pubs surviving at that level I think thats great for all involved - If you dissolve 2 pubs into the other 5 im sure no extra employment would be created, as volume could probably be catered for and choice of venue is reduced - Why mess with it? Some things are more important than trying to be the cheapest of the cheap - im sure some publicans and allot of consumers in your area realise this.

It's called Business and it's a dog eat dog out there. If i was in a town with another 6 pubs and if i thought lowering my price by 10c would actually improve my business - you can be sure as hell i'd do it, and i'd put other people out of business if i had to.

Biggins

ardinn wrote: »

Oh god - please give me strength!

Thats exactly what they do. and have done forever. Please know how something works before you go try and fix it!

I know they have been doing it.
Please read back AGAIN!
I said maybe they should be doing it MORE!

This new (well not really new, they tried it before!) lobbying of the FF mob is a waste of effort for in the long run, it will produce no benefit to the pub owners in the tills direct!

Degag

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why not? The margin on a €4 pint is in the region of €1.50

So margin = profit?

ardinn

Biggins wrote: »

I have said that over may years I have seen pub owners coming together, in the equivalent of might be seen as an unofficial cartel capacity!
Please go back and re-read what I have written - or are you just out to twist my words?

I have seen many meet-ups of publicans getting together over the years - and if anyone tries to tell me they do not discuss any one source of competition contention in their local area - and then chat about what might be done about it, they are living in la-la land or purposely blind and stupid!

I have been at many of those meeting and I assure you price fixing is not discussed. TBH most publicans see every other person there as competition and its very hard to get them to work together on anything. the things discussed are things like insurance - whos getting a good deal - where is the best offers at the moment. Upcoming town events or inter-pub leagues etc etc etc

I am not out to twist anything - Im conversing openly and honestly.

oppenheimer1

Degag wrote: »

It's called Business and it's a dog eat dog out there. If i was in a town with another 6 pubs and if i thought lowering my price by 10c would actually improve my business - you can be sure as hell i'd do it, and i'd put other people out of business if i had to.

It would improve your business, but you would have to go out and actively tell people your pub was cheaper then the rest. Do you ever see advertisements for pubs with the regular non-promotion price of the pint? I know I haven't.

ardinn

Degag wrote: »

It's called Business and it's a dog eat dog out there. If i was in a town with another 6 pubs and if i thought lowering my price by 10c would actually improve my business - you can be sure as hell i'd do it, and i'd put other people out of business if i had to.

Well thats you - im not out to be a millionaire - I just want to provide for the people close to me and run my own business as best I can.

Should I come under threat, of course i will try and save myself.

Degag

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It would improve your business, but you would have to go out and actively tell people your pub was cheaper then the rest. Do you ever see advertisements for pubs with the regular non-promotion price of the pint? I know I haven't.

No you wouldn't. News travels. Where i work, i'm regularily informed of what pub charges what etc etc.

Biggins

ardinn wrote: »

I have been at many of those meeting and I assure you price fixing is not discussed. TBH most publicans see every other person there as competition and its very hard to get them to work together on anything. the things discussed are things like insurance - whos getting a good deal - where is the best offers at the moment. Upcoming town events or inter-pub leagues etc etc etc

I am not out to twist anything - Im conversing openly and honestly.

Thats fair enough if you were not privy to such conversation.
However I talk to bar and licensed premises such as restaurants etc a lot.
Some of them have got to know me well and I can assure you that they do bring up the topic of competition in their area and mention that they and others of like-mindedness/business have talked about how best to deal as a group with the situation, towards the one that is under-pricing them.

oppenheimer1

Degag wrote: »

So margin = profit?

Of course not. But if overheads were managed more intelligently then these could be reduced.

For example a small country pub might only serve one or two customers an hour up until 7pm. A more ruthless approach to the business would see the pub not opening up until 7pm. ie only open when it is profitable to be open. The public do not owe publicans a livelyhood.

Jimmy Garlic

The least that pubs could is stock a fridge of half decent euro beers and sell them for a euro cheaper than a pint on tap, stuff like Paulaner, Staropramen, Grolsch, Newcastle Brown ale etc. The choice in Irish pubs is pathetic beyond belief, not everybody wants to pay through the nose for piss water like Heineken and Budweiser. Either pubs get creative and offer some value for money or they will die, simple as that.

ardinn

Biggins wrote: »

I know they have been doing it.
Please read back AGAIN!
I said maybe they should be doing it MORE!

So you did - apologies - im pretty tired.

Biggins

ardinn wrote: »

So you did - apologies - im pretty tired.

Fair enough, your not on your own there.

ardinn

Biggins wrote: »

Thats fair enough if you were not privy to such conversation.
However I talk to bar and licensed premises such as restaurants etc a lot.
Some of them have got to know me well and I can assure you that they do bring up the topic of competition in their area and mention that they and others of like-mindedness/business have talked about how best to deal as a group with the situation, towards the one that is under-pricing them.

OK but do all businesses not do this? What your saying here is they discuss a strategy to try and compete - but that essentially is not price fixing - Unless they have told you so in no uncertain terms.

If dunnes comes out with an offer do supervalue not try to compete? Im just trying to find the line where ideas meet illegal activities.

Degag

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Of course not. But if overheads were managed more intelligently then these could be reduced.

For example a small country pub might only serve one or two customers an hour up until 7pm. A more ruthless approach to the business would see the pub not opening up until 7pm. ie only open when it is profitable to be open. The public do not owe publicans a livelyhood.

€1.50 is the gross profit. Reduce the pint by €1.50, which you alluded to = no profit (or relitively little, since Tax would also decrease) Out of that €1.50, how much net profit do you think the publican actually makes?

OutlawPete

So, is the next After Hours Beers in Ardinn's then?

ardinn

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The least that pubs could is stock a fridge of half decent euro beers and sell them for a euro cheaper than a pint on tap, stuff like Paulaner, Staropramen, Grolsch, Newcastle Brown ale etc. The choice in Irish pubs is pathetic beyond belief, not everybody wants to pay through the nose for piss water like Heineken and Budweiser. Either pubs get creative and offer some value for money or they will die, simple as that.

If you live in densely populated areas thats fine - rural pubs find it way more difficult to shift non advertised beer as the population just isnt there - And the VAST majority of the people going into pubs like that piss!

The times we have gotten in beers for people and then have them go out of date is more than I can remember. with heavy campaigns to push them - some people like what they are used to and rural pubs have people who like the old reliables.

ardinn

OutlawPete wrote: »

So, is the next After Hours Beers in Ardinn's then?

NO, everyone is barred!

Degag

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The least that pubs could is stock a fridge of half decent euro beers and sell them for a euro cheaper than a pint on tap, stuff like Paulaner, Staropramen, Grolsch, Newcastle Brown ale etc. The choice in Irish pubs is pathetic beyond belief, not everybody wants to pay through the nose for piss water like Heineken and Budweiser. Either pubs get creative and offer some value for money or they will die, simple as that.

A small minority of people want that. In all my years working in the trade, i've never been asked for speciality beers. In town, there may as well be cobwebs growing on the fosters tap, even if there are huge signs advertising it for €3.

Biggins

ardinn wrote: »

OK but do all businesses not do this? What your saying here is they discuss a strategy to try and compete - but that essentially is not price fixing - Unless they have told you so in no uncertain terms.

If dunnes comes out with an offer do supervalue not try to compete? Im just trying to find the line where ideas meet illegal activities.

What exactly was said to me was stated under a matter of trust so I hope you will understand that I can only go so far with my words. Pricing however was part of the conversations.

As regards Dunnes/Supervalue I think (I could be wrong) it was shown before they or similar were operating in a cartel like fashion in regard to basic commodities if memory serves me right, a few years ago.
We might be talking hypothetical now but if they were doing similar in regards to price fixing across the board with alcohol drink, then rightly so they too should be pulled up on it and held to account.

As it is however, I cannot see any chain of supermarkets coming together to try and force out an individual bar or similar type business in any one locality.

HellFireClub

ardinn wrote: »

OK but do all businesses not do this? What your saying here is they discuss a strategy to try and compete - but that essentially is not price fixing - Unless they have told you so in no uncertain terms.

If dunnes comes out with an offer do supervalue not try to compete? Im just trying to find the line where ideas meet illegal activities.

What you guys need to do is organise yourselves and say the following:

(1) We are dropping our margin 15%

(2) The government are going to have to drop their take on the beer 15%

(3) Diageo are going to have to drop their prices 15%...

All other industries are doing (1) and (3) above, prices are coming down everywhere on most goods and services, you already have the government on the back foot on this issue after they were stupidly targetted by the VFI to meddle politically in the market to the detriment of the consumer, you really need to take a few lessons from the pensions and the farmers on how to protest.

In the budget before last, the government reduced the duty by 12% and it wasn't passed on...

oppenheimer1

Degag wrote: »

€1.50 is the gross profit. Reduce the pint by €1.50, which you alluded to = no profit (or relitively little, since Tax would also decrease) Out of that €1.50, how much net profit do you think the publican actually makes?

It was an academic exercise just to point out that the scope for such reductions is actually there. But realistically if a bar can double its turnover and reduce its overheads (which is possible) a €0.75 reduction in the price of a pint could be achieved.

It just takes vision.

ardinn

HellFireClub wrote: »

What you guys need to do is organise yourselves and say the following:

(2) The government are going to have to drop their take on the beer 15%

Im sure they will agree.

oppenheimer1

ardinn wrote: »

Im sure they will agree.

Why wouldn't they? nothing sweetens the electorate like a drop in the cost of alcohol. The only reason they wouldn't do it is if they fear any price drop will be absorbed by the publicans, and not passed onto the consumer, like the last time.