The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

Biggins

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

We need minimum prices on off license beer and wine to get people back in the pubs. The Vintners are a crucial part of our economy and the pub trade attracts tourists. Thousands of people rely on publicans for employment and we should support them and rally around them. Usually publicans are fine upstanding members of the community.

End of advert, now back to your programme.

Micky Dolenz

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

We need minimum prices on off license beer and wine to get people back in the pubs. The Vintners are a crucial part of our economy and the pub trade attracts tourists. Thousands of people rely on publicans for employment and we should support them and rally around them. Usually publicans are fine upstanding members of the community.

Do I know you from somewhere?

Jimmy Garlic

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

We need minimum prices on off license beer and wine to get people back in the pubs. The Vintners are a crucial part of our economy and the pub trade attracts tourists. Thousands of people rely on publicans for employment and we should support them and rally around them. Usually publicans are fine upstanding members of the community.

Hahaha.. Great satire.

Grassroots_FF

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Hahaha.. Great satire.

You can sneer all you like but pubs play a vital role in communities. I'm friendly with my local publican and he sponsors the local hurling team and allows us to have our cumann meetings in the spare room upstairs. He always hosts alot of fundraising events for local causes.

Biggins

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

You can sneer all you like but pubs play a vital role in communities. I'm friendly with my local publican and he sponsors the local hurling team and allows us to have our cumann meetings in the spare room upstairs. He always hosts a lot of fundraising events for local causes.

So does a lot of other businesses, thousands of them and they don't set fixed prices or are allowed to either.
Why should pubs be special?

macquarie

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

You can sneer all you like but pubs play a vital role in communities. I'm friendly with my local publican and he sponsors the local hurling team and allows us to have our cumann meetings in the spare room upstairs. He always hosts alot of fundraising events for local causes.

Pubs are vital to local communities - A great reflection on modern Irish society, and how our international economic trading partners view us.

zagmund

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

We need minimum prices on off license beer and wine to get people back in the pubs. The Vintners are a crucial part of our economy and the pub trade attracts tourists. Thousands of people rely on publicans for employment and we should support them and rally around them. Usually publicans are fine upstanding members of the community.

This would be funny if it weren't scary. Where to start . . .
1) over the last few years I've been asked on a few occasions by tourists to point them at a 'real pub' (you know where there might be a bit of a session of an afternoon/evening, or the barman will talk to you, or pick your own definition of "real") as they want to experience one. And I've sat there and thought and thought and thought and eventually told them that they don't seem to exist any more. At least not in my experience. Tourists coming now for the pub experience mostly (although I will admit not entirely) come away with a feeling that they have just paid over the odds for something which isn't quite what they thought it was going to be.
2) a crucial part of the economy, is it ? In what way would that be now ? In terms of employment numbers, I don't think I would class them as crucial. In terms of VAT, duties, etc . . . on their sales ? Well, I think you'll find that the VAT & duty is exactly the same whether it is bought in an off-license or a pub. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see people laid off when a pub closes, but this is in exactly the same way I don't want to see people laid off when the factory closes, the bakery closes, the cinema closes the doors, the haulier shuts down, etc . . .

The bottom line is that we're not even talking 'craft brewers' here with a 200+ year tradition of brewing something a little special on their premises. It's not like a particular skill is going away. Pull lever, wait, pull lever, hand to punter, extract cash, done.

z

Grassroots_FF

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

You can sneer all you like but pubs play a vital role in communities. I'm friendly with my local publican and he sponsors the local hurling team and allows us to have our cumann meetings in the spare room upstairs. He always hosts alot of fundraising events for local causes.

Have you been frozen in stasis since the 1980s?

My view: Ther pub trade had decades of market saturation due to the lack of competition from other pursuits, pricing legislation and a powerful lobby of politicians who were publicans. Now that most if not all of these factors have dissipated the market is taking a large correction. There will always be a market for pubs in Ireland, however the old "5 pubs in one village" (I grew up in one) situation is gone, never to return.

Taxi drivers whinge and moan, we tell them to shut up and put up with the market. Tough sh*t. You don't like it, go into another business.

I say the same to the VFI.

Biggins

Grassroots_FF is just regurgitating spin - that has been dissected and discussed at great length for the last 500+ posts.
He hasn't addressed the retorting points (where folk have already addressed his contention) and so far since I posed a question (in 516), the silence is deafening.

So does a lot of other businesses, thousands of them and they don't set fixed prices or are allowed to either.
Why should pubs be special?

Capt'n Midnight

Horse_box wrote: »

If a pub is buying bottles of Heineken in bulk, at say 70 cent a bottle and selling them at 4quid, they're making 3.30 gross profit. Does anyone know, even roughly, how much of that 3.30 is going to the taxman and how much is going to the publican?

The excise duty is 15.71c per litre of pure alcohol ( Unchanged since 1994 )
which works out as just 26.16c per bottle ( at 5% alcohol )

the VAT is far larger at 69.42c [edit - mistake on VAT calculation] - so government gets at most 95.58c of the €4
but of course the publicans can claim back some of the VAT


Thing that gets me more is the extrotionate cost of soft drinks in pubs.

In other news drink driving has one down this year , anyone got a figure for the number of lives saved ??

Biggins

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

...In other news drink driving has one down this year , anyone got a figure for the number of lives saved ??

There was a Louth crash report on RTE new years day, I think they mentioned during that report that drink driving deaths were around 20/30 in numbers down.

Grassroots_FF

Biggins wrote: »

So does a lot of other businesses, thousands of them and they don't set fixed prices or are allowed to either.
Why should pubs be special?

Pubs are different because there is an important social aspect to them

Biggins

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Pubs are different because there is an important social aspect to them

Thats it! :eek:
Thats the total sum of your contention!
There are social aspects to local charity groups, same with boxing/athletics/karate/drama/etc and others of its ilk outside the capitalist profit making system.

But hey, seeing as this one also has the ability to make profits for some pub owner, lets use that to our (his!) advantage and fix prices.
Lets ignore every other type of business in the country, lets be selective and allow one business alone the right to stifle competition!

Daftness of the highest order - and by the way, I say again, your other spin that you tried to advertise and been discussed already.
You advert as in post 511 is regurgitated as and from the start of this thread and brings nothing new to this discussion.
Just the same rubbish churned up again and previous related replies to it ignored.

People will socialise by loads of other means and they don't need fixed prices in order to do it for gods sake!

Spiritofthekop

starviewadams wrote: »

Bollox to minimum price!The pubs have already managed to decrease off-license opening hours(under the imaginitive guise of protecting the children!) in order to force people into pubs and now they want to charge a captive audience more money,they can fúck right off.

Agree 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,0000000000000000000000000000000%

More Truthful words could not be said.

The bars etc etc can suck it up like the rest of us.

We and many other have friends over to the house until 12 or so then maybe go to local club for 2 hours for 1 drink.

I'm glad so many people agree on this.

The pubs still make a fortune anyway so they can go a s##k my big apples

Riamfada

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Pubs are different because there is an important social aspect to them

Thats alot of voters!

HellFireClub

There's no doubt there are decent publicans out there as we can see we have one on the thread who is trying hard to stay at the races.

But I think it's fair to say that as a congregation of people within one industry, they are perceived as the meanest and most underhand bunch of bast*rds on the face of the earth. The VFI are hated for their endless pretending to care for welfare of kids and the "health and safety" of the general public, and for using extremely false language such as this, for the purpose of always pushing their own selfish agenda through government policy.

The 10AM off-license closing time is a pure example of it, to stop, "underage drinking", while all along the hidden agenda was to try to push people back into pubs.

Same absolute bullsh*t in recent weeks, "we want people to drink in a pub instead of at home, they are not supervised at home, what about health and safety?"!?!?! This sickens me, how f*cking dare these twats even try to tell me that I need their supervision to be able to drink at home, how dare they pretend that they are interested in my health and safety for the purposes of pushing forward their own selfish financial agenda again.

Behind every person mown down by a drunken driver there is usually a publican who has served the drunk driver all night long, if you want to start caring for health and safety, there's a good starting point for you, come up with a system that means if someone parks their car in your car park, they don't get served alcohol and also stop trying to screw drivers for 5 Euro for a pint of minerals!

mikemac

HellFireClub wrote: »

The IVF are hated for their endless pretending to care for welfare of kids

VFI

Using IVF and kids in the same sentence is something different entirely

Jimmy Garlic

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

You can sneer all you like but pubs play a vital role in communities. I'm friendly with my local publican and he sponsors the local hurling team and allows us to have our cumann meetings in the spare room upstairs. He always hosts alot of fundraising events for local causes.

You can't shoot yourself in the foot and expect to stay standing. Metaphorically that is exactly what pubs in this country have done, 10 years of rip off and mediocrity has left a bad taste in peoples mouths and now they (via their representative) want to stitch up the drink market to suit themselves, unbelievable. Pubs need to go back to the drawing board, not fiddle around and expect preferential treatment.

Grassroots_FF

Biggins wrote: »

Thats it! :eek:
Thats the total sum of your contention!
There are social aspects to local charity groups, same with boxing/athletics/karate/drama/etc and others of its ilk outside the capitalist profit making system.

But hey, seeing as this one also has the ability to make profits for some pub owner, lets use that to our (his!) advantage and fix prices.
Lets ignore every other type of business in the country, lets be selective and allow one business alone the right to stifle competition!

Daftness of the highest order - and by the way, I say again, your other spin that you tried to advertise and been discussed already.
You advert as in post 511 is regurgitated as and from the start of this thread and brings nothing new to this discussion.
Just the same rubbish churned up again and previous related replies to it ignored.

People will socialise by loads of other means and they don't need fixed prices in order to do it for gods sake!

So if my local goes under who will sponsor the local hurling team and where will our cumann meetings be held?

macquarie

Thankfully customers aren't stupid so this will never work, any business that treats its customers with such contempt is destined for failure. People will just go up North for their drink if this is brought in, or purchase drink on the black market, or drink less, anything to avoid handing over more money.

macquarie

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

So if my local goes under who will sponsor the local hurling team and where will our cumann meetings be held?

The supermarkets who are making more profits from the increased sale of alcohol (note - this is how business works in the real world, lower prices = more sales = more profits = happy business owners = happy customers) can sponsor your local hurling team. Or shock horror perhaps the club players, and their parents can make a contribution. I don't expect my taekwondo club to let me train for free, when they are paying rent, instructors, etc so why is hurling so reliant upon pub donations and premises?

HellFireClub

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

So if my local goes under who will sponsor the local hurling team and where will our cumann meetings be held?

As you're going to discover next March, Change Happens! Any business can sponsor a hurling team and I'll be surprised if you have to worry about cumann meetings after March, as there hopefully won't be a Fianna Fail party to talk about...

garv123

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

What sort of abuse?.

personal insults. the owners always drunk there drinking all the time which made alot of people leave.
a older fella comes in for lucazade and tayto with 4 other fellas who mihgt have 3 bottles before going town. he insulted him because he didnt drink and they all left. so he lost 5 customers for mocking a designated driver

Biggins

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

So if my local goes under who will sponsor the local hurling team and where will our cumann meetings be held?

Dunno. Maybe you should ask them?
Maybe you should ask the question "Have they the brains and ability to speak up for themselves, to be able to go out and find other sponsorship under their own steam and effort!" :rolleyes:
I've a sneaking suspicion there are other businesses out there that are looking for tax breaks and with the right sales pitch, would equally give sponsorship!

...And what - you HAVE to have a meeting at a pub anyway?
Is that written in some law somewhere?
I've attended hundreds of meetings and the majority of them has not been across a bar table or near to a bar counter!
Public large halls, private rooms, parochial centres, homes, and on and on!
A meeting does not always have to centre around someone making a profit!

Dermighty

Gavin shels wrote: »

If they want it introduced they should really have a max price for alcohol in pubs/clubs, some places charge shockingly over-priced drinks and well they'd most likely be the ones to fail.

My latest experience of that being in Electric in Cork city, the night it opened I paid €8.30 for a gin and tonic (Schweppes tonic).

Grassroots_FF

macquarie wrote: »

The supermarkets who are making more profits from the increased sale of alcohol (note - this is how business works in the real world, lower prices = more sales = more profits = happy business owners = happy customers) can sponsor your local hurling team. Or shock horror perhaps the club players, and their parents can make a contribution. I don't expect my taekwondo club to let me train for free, when they are paying rent, instructors, etc so why is hurling so reliant upon pub donations and premises?

Small businesses can't compete with the economies of scale offered by big supermarket chains like Tesco. You should be supporting your local business and not British corporations.

HellFireClub

GrassRoots_FF added to ignore list...

Biggins

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Small businesses can't compete with the economies of scale offered by big supermarket chains like Tesco. You should be supporting your local business and not British corporations.

Thats a fair enough opinion but pub fixed prices also shouldn't be shoved down our throats either!
Thats anti-competitive, possible illegal under European regulation rules - and frankly its bullying so that one line of businesses can be more oppressive over others!

rubadub

So if my local goes under who will sponsor the local hurling team and where will our cumann meetings be held?

Dunno, should you really be accepting support from them in the first place, no wonder they are charging so much. "get fit and then get shitfaced down in your sponsors drug den"

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1120/1224283770328.html

ALMOST NINE in every 10 active GAA players who drink alcohol have experienced at least one harmful side-effect due to their drinking in the previous 12 months, newly published research has found.

The study of 960 playing members of the GAA shows more than 90 per cent of those surveyed are drinkers, with almost one-third drinking in excess of the recommended number of units a week. Some 54 per cent say they consume six or more standard drinks in a row at least once a week. These binge-drinkers were more likely to have experienced alcohol-related harm.

In what is believed to be the largest study to date of alcohol use among sportspeople in the Republic, researchers from Trinity College Dublin (TCD) and the Health Service Executive surveyed members of 39 GAA clubs in the northeast, all of whom were active players aged over 16.

Most were in their 20s, single and living at home. Published in the online medical journal BioMed Central Research Notes, the authors found a high proportion of drinkers were harmed by their drinking. Some 31 per cent had been in a fight, while almost a fifth had had an accident.

Just over one in 10 had to attend a hospital emergency department due to alcohol. Others reported drinking had affected studies or their job. After the initial survey, a comprehensive health promotion programme was put in place by the health promotion department of HSE Dublin North East.

This comprised alcohol and nutrition health education sessions for GAA players and mentors and a social marketing campaign in local sports media. The key health promotion messages focused on benefits to participants' health and sports performance of drinking less alcohol and making healthy lifestyle choices.

The Irish are the second-highest consumers of alcohol in the EU.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/ban-alcohol-sponsorship-say-gaa-chiefs-63518.html

Ban alcohol sponsorship say GAA chiefs

TWO leading GAA officials have called on the Association to change their attitude to alcohol and give a lead to society.

Tyrone secretary Dominic McCaughey has accused the GAA of moving too slowly to stamp out sponsorship deals involving alcohol companies.

The GAA has come under fire repeatedly for alcohol sponsorships, despite the fact that soccer and rugby are rife with them.

But McCaughey says the GAA should be stamping out such sponsorships completely and criticises what he calls their lack of urgency about implementing the findings of their own Connolly Report, which has recommended limiting alcohol sponsorships to just two years and ultimately phasing them out entirely.

"It is almost impossible for clubs and counties to take action on this front, when there would appear to be a reluctance, at national level, to take any remedial action as recommended," McCaughey says in his report to next week's Tyrone Convention.

"Faced with the ever-increasing problems associated with substance and alcohol abuse across the entire nation, the reasons or arguments put forward for inactivity by our Association do not stand up to scrutiny.

"Solutions to our problems are not going to be handed down from some government department or high office but from within our own clubs andcommunities," he said.

"The GAA clubs, with their many sporting heroes, are one of the last units of Irish society that are still in a position to provide leadership, along with good example of healthy lifestyles, to the young people who have become so disillusioned," he added.

Sligo secretary Tom Kilcoyne has echoed those sentiments.

Kilcoyne, who will be re-elected for a 38th year at next Tuesday's Sligo convention, said the GAA has the capacity to mount a "positive counter-challenge in the area of alcohol and drug abuse."

He said GAA clubs should be places where people find "a sense of value and belonging and where they're safe from the harms of drugs and alcohol."

Cummybaby

The Pub trade and especially the VFI is nothing more than a glorified racket. You dress up and head into town for a good night out. Then you're either treated like a potential terrorist or stupid cow by the bouncers. You buy overpriced beer which varies in taste and quality between each barrel. Then if your lucky you wont slip and break a leg on the lake of gathering piss in the toilets.

One question: Why bother?

The alternative: go to the offy/supermarket, buy cheap booze and drink on your own terms and at your own leisure without hurting your wallet nor your dignity.