The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

mikemac

<Ollie> wrote: »

Under the Fianna Fail government thousands of pubs closed down. In Cork alone, between 2007 and 2009, 109 pubs have shut down. I've no idea how FF actually achieved this. It was happening before the 'crash' too. Incredible!

Only in Ireland

On this thread Fianna Fail have been blamed for pub closures, the 10pm off licence limit, limited opening hours, high VAT and excise duty, the defeat of the cafe bar idea, being called the publican party and more

How can one party get blamed for thousands of pub closures and at the same time get called out for protecting a cartel?

So which is it? Do you know Ollie?

mikemac

HellFireClub wrote: »

My recollection of being in my mid-late 20's in Dublin is littered with rediculous and completely unnecessary incidents of crap at pub doors and extortionate prices once you got in, jacks floors with an inch of p*ss on the floor, sinks without soap, hand dryers not working, jacks doors without locks, 30 minutes standing at bars waiting to be served, I could go on and on and on.

The thread was on the VFI and the VFI does not represent Dublin. That is the LVA and I've not seen a story from them

Naikon

grenache wrote: »

Try telling that to the folk who live in rural areas where the pub is their only social outlet. To them it is sacrosanct. Its grand if you live in an urban area, there are other amenities. But if you're a single male, in his late 60s, living out in the sticks, then the pub is your only safe house. The pub industry must not be allowed to disappear. You're also forgetting that its a major tourist attraction which generates millions for the exchequer every year.

Make no mistake, there is alot of heritage associated with the irish pub. Regardless of what the average urbanite thinks of his overpriced pisser, pubs are ingrained in irish society as a whole.
Somehow I am starting to think the people that are generally tarring all pubs as overpriced kips, don't understand their purpose as a whole. I doubt this thread represents the general attitude
to pubs throughout the entire country. Yes, I am aware of stiff measures for the future amidst increasing competition, but to think that pubs are going the way of the dodo is just stupid.

gurramok

feelingstressed wrote: »

Only in Ireland

On this thread Fianna Fail have been blamed for pub closures, the 10pm off licence limit, limited opening hours, high VAT and excise duty, the defeat of the cafe bar idea, being called the publican party and more

How can one party get blamed for thousands of pub closures and at the same time get called out for protecting a cartel?

So which is it? Do you know Ollie?

Thats what happens in this case when you try to protect a cartel, market forces take over and destroy you.

senordingdong

Perhaps if there had been no protectionist cartel in the first place then the matter would not have become so dog eat dog.

Perhaps the publicans should be targeting the people that are making his prices so un-desirable. Such as the landlords, insurance companies, and last but not least, his suppliers.

Biggins

feelingstressed wrote: »

Only in Ireland

On this thread Fianna Fail have been blamed for pub closures, the 10pm off licence limit, limited opening hours, high VAT and excise duty, the defeat of the cafe bar idea, being called the publican party and more

How can one party get blamed for thousands of pub closures and at the same time get called out for protecting a cartel?

So which is it? Do you know Ollie?

For a start Fianna Fail have been in power now for the guts of twenty seven years - if they haven't been playing around with the laws pertaining to the drinks/leisure industry, I don't know who has - and all their actions in this regard are on historic record.

"How can one party get blamed for thousands of pub closures"
- ask that question to the Vintners. They seem to be blaming everyone and everything - but themselves!

"...at the same time get called out for protecting a cartel?"
- Well seeing as a good deal of Fianna Fail themselves (besides others in other parties - but don't have a majority in the Dail) in one way or another are buried up to their suit wallets in the bar/leisure industry, maybe you should ask them why they seem to respond a hell of a lot quicker to calls for changes to drink laws than say... change the laws regarding fathers right which have been cried for many times in the same period, for change over the last fifteen years - but nothing has been done in that department!
...Meanwhile the drink laws and sub-sections to it have been played around with more times than Cowan has been publicly sloshed!

professore

grenache wrote: »

Try telling that to the folk who live in rural areas where the pub is their only social outlet. To them it is sacrosanct. Its grand if you live in an urban area, there are other amenities. But if you're a single male, in his late 60s, living out in the sticks, then the pub is your only safe house. The pub industry must not be allowed to disappear. You're also forgetting that its a major tourist attraction which generates millions for the exchequer every year.

Well that's a pity for them, but there are lots of crap things in this country that people just have to put up with at the moment. I think some old guys going to the pub at the weekend (including my own dad BTW) is not top of the list nor should it be. What do you suggest ? Taxpayer subsidised pubs ?

Having said that I was recently in my dad's local, a small village pub with my dad and brother on a Friday night. It was packed. The same was true in a neighbouring small town. My own local in Cork city (or pretty much any pub in the city for that matter) is rarely half full even on weekends. So the demise of the rural pub is greatly exaggerated. And I also could talk to my dad and brother there without shouting in their ears. In Cork I can't hear anything due to the blaring music.

My local in Cork is actually quite good, but my friends don't live locally for the most part, so don't go to my local, we tend to meet up in the city centre. Unfortunately the pubs there are sh1te if you want a good chat and a bit of craic in my experience. There are some good music pubs especially if you like trad (which i do) but I generally don't go for the music.

My wife hates pubs so I don't go out with her, and my friends are similarly tied up so would be in a pub maybe 3-4 times a year. It's not the price of the pint that deters me actually as I would have maybe 4-5 pints so even at € 5 a pint thats € 25 - not a fortune for a good night out even in these times. Even if the beer was free I still wouldn't go out. Much prefer going to a comedy show or some live event, or the cinema, or a restaurant. These are not cheaper but at least they do what they say on the tin. If I want a rock concert then I will go to one, not to a pub.

Capt'n Midnight

grenache wrote: »

Try telling that to the folk who live in rural areas where the pub is their only social outlet. To them it is sacrosanct. Its grand if you live in an urban area, there are other amenities. But if you're a single male, in his late 60s, living out in the sticks, then the pub is your only safe house. The pub industry must not be allowed to disappear. You're also forgetting that its a major tourist attraction which generates millions for the exchequer every year.

The main complaints by visitors to this country are about the price of food , drink and accommodation and about noise levels at night

drink prices and to a certain extent noise levels can be blamed on the pub trade, people shouting on the street because they have had to shout all night in the pub...


It's not so much that the pub prices have continually gone up, it's that they have gone up so much relative to off-license prices.


We live in a country where farmers only get 1/3rd of the supermarket price of their produce, so when people tell me to shop local I must ask how I am to do this with handing most of the money to the gombeen men who will pocket most of it. I love the internet because it by passes middlemen.



And there is still the huge issue of the price pubs in Dublin charge for soft drinks, ( maybe this is the main difference between VFI and LVA ? )

Ghandee

professore wrote: »

Having said that I was recently in my dad's local, a small village pub with my dad and brother on a Friday night. It was packed. The same was true in a neighbouring small town. My own local in Cork city (or pretty much any pub in the city for that matter) is rarely half full even on weekends. So the demise of the rural pub is greatly exaggerated. And I also could talk to my dad and brother there without shouting in their ears. In Cork I can't hear anything due to the blaring music.

So that means the rest of the time, its only half empty????

Wait a minute.........................:o

ScumLord

grenache wrote: »

Try telling that to the folk who live in rural areas where the pub is their only social outlet.

I don't believe this is that true any more, no pub in my town gets people going into socialise on a daily basis. You get a handful of people who go to the pub daily but those with children socialise through their children's hobbies.

allanb49

I was listening on Phantom Fm yesterday and they had the head of the Vinters on it.

Some of the things he was saying,

It's the likes of Tesco who can undersell drink that's making pubs close.

Most pubs in Dublin a pint is €3.50 to €4.00

Those where two of his points,

Moaning about the fact Tesco lures people in to buy cheap drink and then sell over priced goods and the cost of a pint is below a €5 in most pubs.

Is this guy delusional or is there many places in the City that have such cheap drinks.

He also touched on the topic of splashes being below the €2.50 price i've seen in most places.

skywalker_208

allanb49 wrote: »

Moaning about the fact Tesco lures people in to buy cheap drink and then sell over priced goods .

Ehhh - so what..
If people want to pay for overpriced food thats their choice. This is about the price of drink!

dloob

Tom Doorley the food critic was on radio one about it this morning.
He has some article about it in the Daily Mail today.
His basic gist was the average Irish pub is an expensive, bland, characterless kip that deserves to close, so good riddance.
There are a few good ones which should survive but they are the exception.

Idbatterim

would it makes sense for pubs in certain towns and villages to only open on certain days? i.e to reduce running costs and overheads? I.e 2 pubs come together and say you have Mon, Wed & Sat, I have Tues,Thurs, Fri, Sun one week and you have them the next week? Then again I suppose the costs to much smaller pubs and so fixed, that this wouldnt make much sense.

allanb49

Idbatterim wrote: »

would it makes sense for pubs in certain towns and villages to only open on certain days? i.e to reduce running costs and overheads? I.e 2 pubs come together and say you have Mon, Wed & Sat, I have Tues,Thurs, Fri, Sun one week and you have them the next week? Then again I suppose the costs to much smaller pubs and so fixed, that this wouldnt make much sense.

Wouldn't that be a cartel and eliminate competition.

If you where only to have two pubs that enter into this kind of agreement what would stop them increasing their prices knowing they where the only two in town and the only ones open at certain points. It would defeat the purpose of letting the better survive and the weaker be killed :pac:

HellFireClub

Ya know based on all that I've read and said on this thead over the last few days, it's occurred to me that it's now the right time for me to bocott all pubs for the foreseeable future.

I've had enough of these publican spokesmen using me as a pawn in their endless attempts to keep increasing the price of going to a pub. The latest absolutely insane proposal to increase the price of alcohol in a supermarket to me, is the last straw for me.

And so it is, I'm going to boycott all pubs until these guys get a f*cking reality check.

ardinn

Im currently in hospital with Kidney stones - will be home in a few hours, I cant wait to get back into this - some of you are in alot of trouble

*waves finger randomly*

Idbatterim

could the pubs not have soft drinks on tap, like in cinema or fast food chains? The thing is they may get me once when I go up for a blackcurrant and they tell me E2, but I can guarantee they wont see me or my business again, and pubs are all about a loyal repeat customer. Also when I got to a pub for drinks it wouldnt just be me, my mates would come down, who might have tag along mates, so if one pub pisses off one person, god knows how much business they are actually losing. Now there are pubs that can afford to adopt a take it or leave it attitude, but Id say they are in the massive minority.

Idbatterim

my point about the pubs closing wouldnt be good for the consumer, but in the interest of survival for the pub it might be, its like having 2 independent filling stations across the road from each other, what is the point in competing? at the end of the day, everyone is out to make money, the thing is though that the best way for pubs to make more money is by charging less, as unnatural as that may sound to alot of publicans...

Laisurg

If they can't keep it going by themselves then the greedy moneygrubbers should close down like any other buisness would instead of crying about supermarkets and trying to force us into their sub standard dirty pubs that have unbelievably rude staff, and also to be honest the beer in a lot of pubs and clubs nowadays tastes like its 70% bog water anyway. ''Shots'' costing 5 quid as well is fúcking ridiculous.

Geuze

Some data on excise duty rates in Irl:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

Beer = 15.71 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer, this means 8.9 cent per % alc.

4.2% Guinness = 37.5 cent duty
5% beer = 44.6 cent duty
5.5% beer, e.g. weiss bier = 49 cent duty

Spirits = 31.13 per litre of alcohol in the spirits

This means 8.72 per 70cl bottle at 40%, or 44.2 cent per 35.5ml shot.


Wine = 262.24 per hectolitre

This means 1.97 per 75cl bottle.

Geuze

One of the reasons for high prices in pubs here is the supplier cost, not the pub's gross margin.

As Diageo is so dominant here, they charge much more to pubs than in the UK.

Same goes for Heineken.

Bulmers have often said that they make more % profit in the RoI compared to the UK, due to less competition, higher willingness to pay, etc.

I suspect the soft-drink suppliers / wholesalers make huge margins on pub sales.

ardinn

HellFireClub wrote: »

There's no doubt there are decent publicans out there as we can see we have one on the thread who is trying hard to stay at the races.

But I think it's fair to say that as a congregation of people within one industry, they are perceived as the meanest and most underhand bunch of bast*rds on the face of the earth. The VFI are hated for their endless pretending to care for welfare of kids and the "health and safety" of the general public, and for using extremely false language such as this, for the purpose of always pushing their own selfish agenda through government policy.

HellFireClub wrote: »

Same absolute bullsh*t in recent weeks, "we want people to drink in a pub instead of at home, they are not supervised at home, what about health and safety?"!?!?! This sickens me, how f*cking dare these twats even try to tell me that I need their supervision to be able to drink at home, how dare they pretend that they are interested in my health and safety for the purposes of pushing forward their own selfish financial agenda again.

I'll try say this as best I can without sounding like a dick but explaining the reasons for these types of statements.

When drinking at home, I could easily polish a bottle of vodka or jameson over the course of an evening. No problem. Not saying you would!

We used to have an old farmer who used to come to the pub on his tractor, every night, have a few half ones, meet the other older lads and chat for hours by the fire.

He was caught Going home one night after 3 drinks and passed a breathalizer, But it scared him so much that man has not darkened the door of our pub since. Instead, he used the off licence. He has gradually worked his way up from one bottle of jameson a fortnight, to one a day. Sitting at home, Alone, talking to his dogs!

That man has no social outlet, has no means to do anything or meet anyone for socialising anymore and is seriously affecting his health. Should this man still be going to our pub, he would have a maximum 4 or 5 drinks and go home. Thats how this is affecting people who drink at home. And I doubt many will disagree that while home-drinking, you tend to drink more - more often

HellFireClub wrote: »

Behind every person mown down by a drunken driver there is usually a publican who has served the drunk driver all night long, if you want to start caring for health and safety, there's a good starting point for you, come up with a system that means if someone parks their car in your car park, they don't get served alcohol and also stop trying to screw drivers for 5 Euro for a pint of minerals!

If you get drunk in my pub I will bring you home - Have done for the last 3 years and bought a minibus to do so. Alot of pubs do this nowadays.

ardinn

Value

Is a pint at €4 actually that bad value to everyone??

I mean really - in the grand scheme of things taking into account the costs involved to build, a bar and run it to you actually being served the pint, €4 really? That bad Value??

Cinema ticket - €9 - €12 + €3 for your bloody 3D glasses.
Restaurant steak or any red meat main - €18 - €30
Bowling - €30 per hour - more
Snooker - €15 per hour - + -
O'briens Sambo - €4 +


Look around, things cost money and the price of a pint was never dear.

Im not talking about dublin city centre pubs but appreciate that alot of posters are in the area.

starbelgrade

ardinn wrote: »

Value

Is a pint at €4 actually that bad value to everyone??

Yes.



Cinema ticket - €9 - €12 + €3 for your bloody 3D glasses.

Cinemas are a rip off. I'd rather download a Bluray version & watch it at home.

Restaurant steak or any red meat main - €18 - €30

Worth it, if the food is good quality & well cooked.

Bowling - €30 per hour - more
Snooker - €15 per hour - + -

Dunno. Don't play either.

O'briens Sambo - €4 +

Not worth it either.


Look around, things cost money and the price of a pint was never dear.

It never used to be, but it is now. That's the point. It's only beer after all.

As I've said all along - your main problem in getting punters in the door is price. You can dance around the issue all you want, but you are ignoring your main obstacle.

I've even given you ways of trying to reduce it & you've poo-poohed them all.

So here it is again... GET THE PRICE DOWN & MORE PEOPLE WILL GO TO YOUR PUB.

Venom

ardinn wrote: »

Value

Is a pint at €4 actually that bad value to everyone??

I mean really - in the grand scheme of things taking into account the costs involved to build, a bar and run it to you actually being served the pint, €4 really? That bad Value??

Cinema ticket - €9 - €12 + €3 for your bloody 3D glasses.
Restaurant steak or any red meat main - €18 - €30
Bowling - €30 per hour - more
Snooker - €15 per hour - + -
O'BrienSambo - €4 +


Look around, things cost money and the price of a pint was never dear.

Im not talking about dublin city centre pubs but appreciate that alot of posters are in the area.

When the consumer can purchase the exact same product themselves and enjoy it in far nicer surroundings for a quarter of the price why would they consider paying a 3rd party €4 for a pint?

Cinema's have being doing better deals that what you listed unlike pubs.
Restaurant prices have come down with the recession and really good value can be had these days unlike pubs.
O'BrienSambo - went into liquidation for charging the customer to much for a piss poor product just like the pubs

Bowling - honestly cant comment on current prices.
Snooker - again cant comment on current prices.

Ardinn after all your posts in this thread and all the feedback you have gotten, what part of giving the customer better value can't you grasp? Seriously dude you really asking people if paying 3-4 times the going rate for a product is bad value :rolleyes:

HellFireClub

ardinn wrote: »

I'll try say this as best I can without sounding like a dick but explaining the reasons for these types of statements.

When drinking at home, I could easily polish a bottle of vodka or jameson over the course of an evening. No problem. Not saying you would!

We used to have an old farmer who used to come to the pub on his tractor, every night, have a few half ones, meet the other older lads and chat for hours by the fire.

He was caught Going home one night after 3 drinks and passed a breathalizer, But it scared him so much that man has not darkened the door of our pub since. Instead, he used the off licence. He has gradually worked his way up from one bottle of jameson a fortnight, to one a day. Sitting at home, Alone, talking to his dogs!

That man has no social outlet, has no means to do anything or meet anyone for socialising anymore and is seriously affecting his health. Should this man still be going to our pub, he would have a maximum 4 or 5 drinks and go home. Thats how this is affecting people who drink at home. And I doubt many will disagree that while home-drinking, you tend to drink more - more often

Yeah but that guy I think is hardly representative I think of people who enjoy a drink at home, and the very same guy on a different day would have failed the breath test and would have been banned from driving, not withstanding the fact that according to yourself, he was drinking in an environment where he was "being supervised".

The fact remains that the same guy with 3 whiskeys inside him, drinking a fu*king tractor of all things, is a substantial risk to anyone else on the road when he is driving home from your pub. I accept that he was technically under the limit but there can be little doubt that his driving would have been impaired to some degree, while driving a tractor.

The same VFI organisation which claims to care so much about my health and safety while drinking at home, is also lobbying the government for no further reductions in the legal alcohol driving limit, all in the name of "preserving rural life"...

http://www.vfi.ie/News/New-Vintners-Federation-of-Ireland-President-Val-Hanley-Outlines-Vision-for-the-Future-of-the-Irish-Pub

What I'm hearing from the VFI is that it is perfectly acceptable to go out to a rural pub with a tractor, have 3 whiskeys and drive home while technically under the legal limit.

If I or anyone I loved got killed by such a drink driver, who without any question of a doubt must be driving under an impairment due to alcohol, I'd find little consolation in the fact that the driver was "technically", under the limit.

If the VFI want to start lecturing people on health and safety, they'd want to start from a position of "don't ever ever drink and drive", and sorting their own house out first, they are only looking rediculous lecturing people on enjoying a bottle of wine at home while pushing for a tolerable level of drink driving on Irish roads...

HellFireClub

ardinn wrote: »

Value

Is a pint at €4 actually that bad value to everyone??

The price of a pint of lager in any Dublin pub in the suburbs now is just under 5 Euro.

ScumLord

ardinn wrote: »

Im currently in hospital with Kidney stones - will be home in a few hours, I cant wait to get back into this - some of you are in alot of trouble

*waves finger randomly*

Oh so now your blaming us for giving you kidney stones?! :P

ardinn wrote: »

That man has no social outlet, has no means to do anything or meet anyone for socialising anymore and is seriously affecting his health. Should this man still be going to our pub, he would have a maximum 4 or 5 drinks and go home. Thats how this is affecting people who drink at home. And I doubt many will disagree that while home-drinking, you tend to drink more - more often

He could have bought a smaller bottle, I usually drink less at home because all I buy is the six bottles of Guinness in the pub I'll have four pints get the lip on me and end up stocious. The loss of his social outlet is a problem but then so was his drunk driving habits, Ireland needs a better social outlet than a pub though in fairness. I wouldn't have a problem if pubs were what they originally were, public houses. They're not any more and I think that's part of their problem pubs are just places to push a drug onto people.

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

I've even given you ways of trying to reduce it & you've poo-poohed them all.

So here it is again... GET THE PRICE DOWN & MORE PEOPLE WILL GO TO YOUR PUB.

You have given me one way - Which was to build a country wide network of cash and carry's costing tens of millions then actually start brewing products ourselves - I'll poo hoo you! Get real.