The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

MagicSean

benjamin d wrote: »

I would LOVE for this to happen, but the fact is that the vast majority of people only want their guinness/heineken/carlsberg/pisswater to be sold in their local. You and I and probably a more than average number of boardsies would be all for different beers and a wider variety, but it just doesn't sell to your average man on the street.

I'd love even a British type situation, where two pubs beside each other might have a completely different selection, but the Irish market is so set in their ways of drinking watered down mass market crap that it'll take a long long time to change that.

I disagree. Look at how well the cheap beers sell in the off licence.

Greyfox

k_mac wrote: »

I disagree. Look at how well the cheap beers sell in the off licence.

Exactly!
I reckon if pubs offered an alternative at a slightly lower price then what they usually sell over time you'd start to see these other drinks becomming more popular, but this won't happen as pubs just don't seem willing to make changes to their business despite it been very obvious that changes need to be made. And this calling for a minimum price for alcohol is just a good way of making sure nobody can feel sympathy for the pubs

ardinn

macquarie wrote: »

You have to view this from a customer's point of view - we couldn't care less about the costs of running the business, I don't go into my local Tesco and say "ah sure I don't mind paying more for product X here than in Lidl, Tesco need to justify higher rents/staff/whatever" - customers just see 2 things:

1) Product
2) Price

If the product has a lower price in shop X than Y, we go to shop X.
If the product is too expensive in both shop X and Y, we don't purchase it.

Alcohol is a luxury product at the end of the day.

And it's really as simple as that. The costs of running the business itself are for the directors and management to worry about, not the customers.

Hi, Thanks for the post.

I am not disputing this whatsoever, I am just trying to clear up some lies that are being posted here because people who are maybe interested in the "ins and outs" are being mislead by mis-informed people.

ardinn

senordingdong wrote: »

Want to give a resounding +1 on this.

Just using boxes of bottles as an example, the cases the supermarkets buy is different then the cases the publicans buy.

20 bottle pack or 24 - i'll tell you exactly, the cheapest of the three suppliers I have.

ardinn

Degag wrote: »

Well buddy, i've worked in the trade for a long time and the last docket that i received had Guinness on it for €131.66.

What year? I wont put my full wieght behind it as of yet but i'll get back to you on exactly the price. It is more than that tho - Could you indicate the amount of volume the place would go through?

Degag

ardinn wrote: »

What year? I wont put my full wieght behind it as of yet but i'll get back to you on exactly the price. It is more than that tho - Could you indicate the amount of volume the place would go through?

About 3 weeks ago! 15 - 20 Kegs a week.

ScumLord

Greyfox wrote: »

Exactly!
I reckon if pubs offered an alternative at a slightly lower price then what they usually sell over time you'd start to see these other drinks becomming more popular, but this won't happen as pubs just don't seem willing to make changes to their business despite it been very obvious that changes need to be made. And this calling for a minimum price for alcohol is just a good way of making sure nobody can feel sympathy for the pubs

It looks like the publican is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they don't change they go out of business, if they do change they may well lose the business they have.

I have sympathy, the publicans bought into a market that seemed like it could never fail in Ireland, of course making assumptions going into business is doomed to failure especially if your going to compete with more established businesses by doing the exact same thing their doing.

Going by the other thread where people described their perfect pub there's not much alternative that thread had completely ludicrous ideas that needed warehouse sized venues and a few million to deck it out in TV's that people don't actually want to watch and fancy couches that would get destroyed by their patrons.

There will be a massive cull in pub numbers there's too many off them, publicans can stick with the traditional model and hope they're one of the pubs left standing or change their business which isn't easy if your place is kitted out to serve beer, there may not even be the possibility to begin offering food or anything else.

I still think getting back to the original concept of the pub - the public house would put publicans on the right track. What do people do at home these days? Let them do that with friends in your public house and stop trying to be alcohol pushers.

benjamin d

k_mac wrote: »

I disagree. Look at how well the cheap beers sell in the off licence.

But look at the quality of them - Bavaria, Dutch Gold and that kind of stuff? Absolute muck. Bavaria is €3 in a lot of places now and students are the only ones that drink it. I can't stomach the stuff. I mean good quality beers, even if they aren't a big brand.

Even craft beers and small brewer's stuff can be bought for €2.50 a 500ml bottle in offies. That's comparable to cans of Heineken/Bulmers etc. but it still won't sell in your average pub. I would love to be able to get decent quality beer in a standard pub, but the only places in Galway for them are the Oslo or Salt House etc. and you pay a premium for it.

If pubs could get away from the big 4 or 5 names and start selling what they want it could only be a good thing. It would break the control Diageo and Heineken have on the industry.

On a related note, does anyone know if anyone has ever tried to start a bar without using Diageo at all? I know Diageo offer incentives to people to ditch Heineken but has anyone ever dropped them and how did it work out?

Degag

benjamin d wrote: »

On a related note, does anyone know if anyone has ever tried to start a bar without using Diageo at all? I know Diageo offer incentives to people to ditch Heineken but has anyone ever dropped them and how did it work out?

I know of a large hotel group who tried it.

It would be suicide for any pub to do it though.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Laughed my bollocks off reading this.

Fibber Magees on parnell st the last few years have had a deal where you pay 5euro in on thursdays and then all drinks are 3euro. If you want a short you pay three euro and there's a big bottle of coke/lemonade you can use as a mixer sitting on the bar.

Since doing that they have renovated and extended the place to make it a nice smoking area and decorated the interior.

They have also opened a new premises on the quays.

If they can operate at a profit selling drinks at 3euro a pop then it raises serious questions about pubs around Dublin selling pints for 5euro+. I even paid 6.20 for a pint bottle of tiger beer in doyles last year. Didn't by a single further drink that night I was so pissed off.

matrim

benjamin d wrote: »

On a related note, does anyone know if anyone has ever tried to start a bar without using Diageo at all? I know Diageo offer incentives to people to ditch Heineken but has anyone ever dropped them and how did it work out?

There are 2 new places in Dublin, L. Mulligans and Against the Grain which have opened in the last 6 months and sell craft beers and I think neither have the usual Guinness \ Heineken etc on tap

fortycoats100

The only one killing the pub trade are the brewery's themselves. Most products in this country dropped in price up to 25%, even BMW and mercedes but the brewerys hve not cut their price. A pint should be no more than €3 but if you put this to the brewery they would say that they do not promote cheap drinking-the sooner they fall the better

Degag

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Laughed my bollocks off reading this.

Fibber Magees on parnell st the last few years have had a deal where you pay 5euro in on thursdays and then all drinks are 3euro. If you want a short you pay three euro and there's a big bottle of coke/lemonade you can use as a mixer sitting on the bar.

Since doing that they have renovated and extended the place to make it a nice smoking area and decorated the interior.

They have also opened a new premises on the quays.

If they can operate at a profit selling drinks at 3euro a pop then it raises serious questions about pubs around Dublin selling pints for 5euro+. I even paid 6.20 for a pint bottle of tiger beer in doyles last year. Didn't by a single further drink that night I was so pissed off.

On Thursdays. How much do they charge for the rest of the week?

senordingdong

ardinn wrote: »

20 bottle pack or 24 - i'll tell you exactly, the cheapest of the three suppliers I have.

Beg your pardon, I was referring to the bottles/packaging.

Mar shampla, Heineken.

Publican gets his bottles of Heineken from the wholesaler, in a big plastic, re-usable box. The bottles are very tough and re-usable. And he pays x for it.

Supermarket buys same quantity but they come in cardboard boxes. The bottles are weak and not re-usable. He pays y for it.

I know the publican can sell his packaging back to the wholesaler, (or generate a credit) but could the re-usable packaging be adding extra (albeit redeemable) costs to the publican?

senordingdong

Degag wrote: »

On Thursdays. How much do they charge for the rest of the week?

Prices return to the standard other nights, but six years ago, the place was deader then whatever it is that emits to odour in the place.

Now they've seen countless renovations and a second premises, and have gained enough customers to create busy weekends too.

Degag

senordingdong wrote: »

but could the re-usable packaging be adding extra (albeit redeemable) costs to the publican?

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but you need to pay someone to sort through all the bottles to return them to the supplier.

Degag

senordingdong wrote: »

Prices return to the standard other nights, but six years ago, the place was deader then whatever it is that emits to odour in the place.

Now they've seen countless renovations and a second premises, and have gained enough customers to create busy weekends too.

But they're not doing that by selling drink at €3 a pop which you insinuated in your last post. Now, by selling at €3 a pop one night a week it definately gets people into the bar other nights of week. But the money made on those nights is paying for the extentions, renovations and new premises, not Thursday Nights.

DaveMaC

ScumLord wrote: »

I still think getting back to the original concept of the pub - the public house would put publicans on the right track. What do people do at home these days? Let them do that with friends in your public house and stop trying to be alcohol pushers.

Too true!
But even then things have got to change -in fact they already have, every industry has to adapt, no intervention can halt that. There will be fewer pubs, with less customers, with smaller turnover. They WILL be quieter.
People WILL stay at home more -and why not? they're paying a massive mortgage -they might as well enjoy it and have their mates around once in a while to help them enjoy it.
My advice to pubs (talking as a customer):
1. go screaming bloody murder to that useless shower of Fianna Fail pricks in the Vintners Federation -they are killing you.
2. Stop thinking that you're an indispensable Irish Institution that can't be allowed to fail. Accept the change in the economy, and get on with adapting to it. It has happened already and you're already way behind.
3. Call me when you've turned down the music, dropped the price of a pint, replaced the dart board and pool Table, offer a better choice of drinks, and just maybe drop a little bowl of peanuts down to the table when we've bought a big round of drinks.

Degag

DaveMaC wrote: »

3. Call me when you've turned down the music, dropped the price of a pint, replaced the dart board and pool Table, offer a better choice of drinks, and just maybe drop a little bowl of peanuts down to the table when we've bought a big round of drinks.

What about the people who like the pool table and dart board? What are they going to do?

Capt'n Midnight

maninasia wrote: »

All the pubs need to do is join together as a purchasing 'co-op' and negotiate together to make purchases. They pay a small fee to be part of the co-op.

Didn't the pharmacies do this ?

DaveMaC

Degag wrote: »

What about the people who like the pool table and dart board? What are they going to do?

No no, i meant 'replace them' as in "put them back in".:D
loads of pubs used to have them years ago but took them out in order to squeeze in as many punters as they could rip off.
So re-instate the Dartboard, the pool table, could even leave the odd pack of cards lying around -
It'd all help, AFTER the prices are readjusted in line with everything else in the economy, that means Down, way down.

senordingdong

Degag wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but you need to pay someone to sort through all the bottles to return them to the supplier.

Well, in my experience, the wholesaler that is buying the bottles from publicans, pays someone to sort through them.

I'm talking about a publican buying fifty cases of Heineken. Some of the cost is to cover the re-usable bottles and cases. Then the wholesaler buys the empty bottles and cases back, thus the landlord gets some percentage of what spent, back.

As for Fibbers...ofcourse I don't know the intricate dealings of pubs turnovers in that way, but it went from being a desolate **** hole, to two crowded, not so **** holes.
And it all started with some creative price re-adjustments.

ScumLord

DaveMaC wrote: »

3. Call me when you've turned down the music, dropped the price of a pint, replaced the dart board and pool Table, offer a better choice of drinks, and just maybe drop a little bowl of peanuts down to the table when we've bought a big round of drinks.

The cynical part of me thinks they got rid of pool tables and darts boards was to get rid of distractions for drinking.

stimpson

On a related note, Luigi Malones went into liquidation today. Had a quick look at their menus on the website and I can see why:

Starters - 4.50 for Garlic Bread. Other starters priced up to 8.90
Mains - 20 quid for a fajita - even the veggie ones were 18.90. 15 quid for a burger. Most other mains in 15-20 range
Dessert - 6-7 euro
Beer - 500ml - 5.80 (works out at 6.70 a pint!)
No price on the coffee, but I can guess.

So dinner for 2 and a couple of pints is pushing 100 euro. Anyone see good value in that?

mikom

stimpson wrote: »

On a related note, Luigi Malones went into liquidation today. Had a quick look at their menus on the website and I can see why:

Desert - 6-7 euro

That price would not be bad if it was the Sahara you were getting, but more than likely it would be the smaller Gobi.

tails_naf

stimpson wrote: »

On a related note, Luigi Malones went into liquidation today. Had a quick look at their menus on the website and I can see why:

Starters - 4.50 for Garlic Bread. Other starters priced up to 8.90
Mains - 20 quid for a fajita - even the veggie ones were 18.90. 15 quid for a burger. Most other mains in 15-20 range
Dessert - 6-7 euro
Beer - 500ml - 5.80 (works out at 6.70 a pint!)
No price on the coffee, but I can guess.

So dinner for 2 and a couple of pints is pushing 100 euro. Anyone see good value in that?

I remember when I first started dating my wife (2004/2005), we had a meal in luigi malones, massive feed at pretty good prices. Then moved to the US for a few years and came back in 08. We had one of our first meals out there when we came back - because we really liked it the first time.
The shock of coming back from the US (v. cheap to eat out), plus hitting the peak of the tiger in Ireland, nearly knocked me flat. I couldn't believe the prices on the menu. The meal was nice and all, but we never went back.

So yet another fine establishment have priced themselves out of the market.

ardinn

senordingdong wrote: »

Beg your pardon, I was referring to the bottles/packaging.

Mar shampla, Heineken.

Publican gets his bottles of Heineken from the wholesaler, in a big plastic, re-usable box. The bottles are very tough and re-usable. And he pays x for it.

Supermarket buys same quantity but they come in cardboard boxes. The bottles are weak and not re-usable. He pays y for it.

I know the publican can sell his packaging back to the wholesaler, (or generate a credit) but could the re-usable packaging be adding extra (albeit redeemable) costs to the publican?

Their is a 4.10 charge per case, redeemable on return - so it makes no difference unless your breaking hundreds.

ardinn

Degag wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but you need to pay someone to sort through all the bottles to return them to the supplier.

I do that myself - but busy places doo need bottle boys - but they do everything from stocking to sorting to ordering.

ardinn

DaveMaC wrote: »

Too true!
But even then things have got to change -in fact they already have, every industry has to adapt, no intervention can halt that. There will be fewer pubs, with less customers, with smaller turnover. They WILL be quieter.
People WILL stay at home more -and why not? they're paying a massive mortgage -they might as well enjoy it and have their mates around once in a while to help them enjoy it.
My advice to pubs (talking as a customer):
1. go screaming bloody murder to that useless shower of Fianna Fail pricks in the Vintners Federation -they are killing you.
2. Stop thinking that you're an indispensable Irish Institution that can't be allowed to fail. Accept the change in the economy, and get on with adapting to it. It has happened already and you're already way behind.
3. Call me when you've turned down the music, dropped the price of a pint, replaced the dart board and pool Table, offer a better choice of drinks, and just maybe drop a little bowl of peanuts down to the table when we've bought a big round of drinks.

Their are twice as many people here trying to get pubs with no darts or pool to get them in - Which is probably a statement that their arent too many pubs, just to many middle ground pubs - set out your stall and either be a sports pub / quiet pub / disco pub.

If I were to take everyone's advice here (and im trying to, but ye cant have it all - you wont appeal to everyone and then if you try you probably wont appeal to anyone) I would need a Multi story pub covering 10 acres with at least 10 different bars and 10 genres of music at 10 different levels some with tv's some without some with pool tables some without.

Sooo. Where's the middle ground for the average Joe?

Edit - just read the "replace" post

ardinn

ScumLord wrote: »

The cynical part of me thinks they got rid of pool tables and darts boards was to get rid of distractions for drinking.

People drink twice as much playing these games. I promote them - heavily.