The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

senordingdong

pippox wrote: »

Another big problem for pubs at the moment is the price of a bar extension. It's making it very difficult for promoters trying to run any kind of non-mainstream event. Owners and managers are understandably reluctant to organise bar extensions unless a promoter can guarantee that an event will pack their venue. This is by no means one of the bigger issues facing pubs, but it is stopping a lot of events from going ahead, and surely must be having a knock-on effect sales?

Yeah these rules suited all involved then, and don't now.

Stinger.

fontanalis

I'm no fan of the price charged for drinks in certain places but I almost get the impression from some posts that bars should be non profit organisations.

senordingdong

We want publcans to lower the overheads and pass on the saving for once.

Sofiztikated

the_syco wrote: »

It makes a lot of noise. But it delivers ice cold coke, so I likes it.

What makes a lot of noise? The splash machine I used to use the only noise out of it was the psssssssshhhhhht of the premix and gas mixing as it left nozzle. Granted it wasn't one of the gun types, but same premise. (On a side note, fecking with the premix so that just pure CocaCola syrup was dispensed, meant some crazy sugary/caffeine buzzes were had on nights! :cool: )

pippox

senordingdong wrote: »

Yeah these rules suited all involved then, and don't now.

Stinger.

I'm not sure if those rules suited all involved.
More likely they suited owners of nightclubs and superpubs, where the cost of an extension was a very small portion of the running costs.
If anything the measure seemed designed to remove smaller pubs from late night trading.

Cantona's Collars

Irish drinkers are creatures of habit-unless a new beer is incredibly cheap they'll stick to the old reliables regardless of price.The brother in law won't drink Guiness anywhere except Ireland because it tastes different.Heineken was mentioned-even the 74c cans in Aldi are nicer than that,maybe pubs should serve that.
Some pubs down my way serve 5 bottles of Coors/Miller/Budweiser on ice for €15,not as cheap as the offie but still better than buying them individually.

the_syco

Sofiztikated wrote: »

What makes a lot of noise? The splash machine I used to use the only noise out of it was the psssssssshhhhhht of the premix and gas mixing as it left nozzle.

Chug chug chug vrmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... noise that it did every so often. I suppose it depends on the layout of the pub, were the canisters are kept, etc. This was a 2 or 3 foot squared size machine that was hooked up to all eight canisters to feed two twos at separate bars about 20 meters from each other.

Sofiztikated

the_syco wrote: »

Chug chug chug vrmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... noise that it did every so often. I suppose it depends on the layout of the pub, were the canisters are kept, etc. This was a 2 or 3 foot squared size machine that was hooked up to all eight canisters to feed two twos at separate bars about 20 meters from each other.

Hmm.

Suppose it could be rose tinted glasses and all that, but I don't remember our splash machine making noise. Did yours come out chilled?

iPlop

Degag wrote: »

No, considerably less than that.

For p!ss think about it ,pure p!ss what is it 5 euro 4.50 for p!ss.If there was quality beer on tap the pub game might stand a chance ,that's why the porterhouse does extremely well ,good beer on tap and good food as well

the_syco

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Hmm.

Suppose it could be rose tinted glasses and all that, but I don't remember our splash machine making noise. Did yours come out chilled?

Yes. Always chilled. The end part would be pssssst, but that's just the nozzle. Where it came from would be the noisy part.

Degag

the_syco wrote: »

people will come to you for that one drink, and will bring their friends.

Will they? I'm not too sure tbh.

pippox wrote: »

I'm not sure if those rules suited all involved.
More likely they suited owners of nightclubs and superpubs, where the cost of an extension was a very small portion of the running costs.
If anything the measure seemed designed to remove smaller pubs from late night trading.

An extention used to cost €200, it has since increased, add the cost of the solicitor to apply for the licence, and you're talking a considerable ammount of money. Especially when a pub has only two hours to pay that fee AND make a profit.

Sink The Banana wrote: »

For p!ss think about it ,pure p!ss what is it 5 euro 4.50 for p!ss.If there was quality beer on tap the pub game might stand a chance ,that's why the porterhouse does extremely well ,good beer on tap and good food as well

I think you're talking piss tbh. The Porterhouse is a pub in the middle of Dublin. It does well because it has a niche market approach to the overall market. Take that pub's approach to rural Ireland, and there will be alot more pubs out of business than there already is.

OPENROAD

fontanalis wrote: »

I'm no fan of the price charged for drinks in certain places but I almost get the impression from some posts that bars should be non profit organisations.

The same goes for any business though.

Two things that do put me off the pub are prices and choice of beer.

OPENROAD

Degag wrote: »

. The Porterhouse is a pub in the middle of Dublin. It does well because it has a niche market approach to the overall market. Take that pub's approach to rural Ireland, and there will be alot more pubs out of business than there already is.

One of the only pubs here I like.

snaps

Id love to see real Ale make an impression over here. I love to going to the UK and having the choice of so many different types and tastes of real Ale.

Some of the names of them are amusing as well.

When ever I go up to the North, I try to fit a few guest Ales in from a weatherspoons.

If you ask me the pubs are so boring here, same old taps and bottles behind the bar and TV's roaring out sports or racing.

DaveMaC

senordingdong wrote: »

We want publcans to lower the overheads and pass on the saving for once.

Yeah, I think everyone agrees that price is the primary concern with the customer.
I remember i used to accompany my grandfather to his local for a few pints with his cronies on a sunday. (nearly twenty years ago now) The five or six of them would be always go to the same pub together and drink Guinness and Jameson, no variation. When the price rose by 2p -they were straight out the door. Any time a pub raised its price by the tiniest margin, or if a Barman was acting the prick, or they cut the free peanuts or whatever -off they marched en-masse to the next accommodating pub in search of a 2p saving on the pint. And in this way they rotated from pub to pub for most of the mid-nineties.
i think that for the last decade or so people just winced and paid whatever they were asked. Hopefully this is changing. However, it's a shame that price should be the only deciding factor in the market. But that's how it has become -cloned soulless pubs with the same disgruntled staff offering the same 5 pissy beers. The very fact that price is the sole deciding factor should be seen as a serious warning sign that the pub trade has gone to the dogs.

matrim

Sink The Banana wrote: »

For p!ss think about it ,pure p!ss what is it 5 euro 4.50 for p!ss.If there was quality beer on tap the pub game might stand a chance ,that's why the porterhouse does extremely well ,good beer on tap and good food as well

In fairness the porterhouse isn't excluded from many of the criticisms that are thrown at other pubs. The charge the same price as other pubs in the area e.g. When Porterhouse in Phibsboro opened it was the same price for a pint of Chiller (porterhouse lager) as for a pint of Heineken in the pub across the street. Which I think was about 30 or 40c cheaper than the one in town.

Also I find they can get way too loud after about 7 or 8 pm with music or a band which puts me off wanting to stay there for the night.

In saying that they have a very good selection of beer, with barmen who generally know what they are talking about. And they are a step above a lot of other bars.

Mec-a-nic

Degag wrote: »

I'm not saying that price isn't relevant. Of course it is. It's not relevant in the point you were making about speciality beers though. Publicans sell lots of Heineken and Budweiser 330ml bottles at €6 a pop. If people won't buy 500ml bottles of speciality beers at the same price, what hope do they have? All i know is that if we sold speciality beers - even at 20% less than the others - the vast majority of them would be on the shelf in 6 months time. That's only my pubs situation, but i think alot of pubs would have a similar problem.

I like craft/Belgian beers, but know exactly where you are coming from.

I believe a drinking survey was held in the UCD student bar in the early 90's (so price not a factor). Students were offered a free drink if they answered questions on what they drank and why. I believe many students confessed they drank Bud/Heineken due to their image, even though the taste/quality was crap. Their free drink was given to them in the form of a voucher, and the barman was told to write down what each student ordered with their voucher. No surprise as to the result - even when the price approaches zero, the majority of drinkers will order the mass-marketed (tasteless) products.

maninasia

It depends what you are aiming for. Do you want to go after the mass market or do you want to after the niche. Sometimes niches become mass market and vice versa. I think Irish consumers are starting to get more of a palette for foreign food and this will continue with drink aswell.
Overseas it's common to go to Belgian bars, Irish bars, German bars...whereas in Ireland it can be difficult to tell one bar from another.

There definitely is a market for bars that serve different types of beers or alehouses or brewhouses, but if you want to do that you'd probably have to go all out..no half measures. You can be a bar and bbq house etc. There are loads of ideas in other countries, Ireland is lacking in themed places, even the countryside can support themed venues, make it more fun.

In the meantime if you think it's too risky you bring in the Erdingers and Paulaners first, people who have tried them will also move on to more things eventually.

Dyr

And here's the other thing vitners..remember all yizzer ad's about the great institution that is a dublin pub..the craic, the conversation, the atmosphere blah blah? Well guess what tap jockeys? Us , the paying customer, are supplying all that..not youse.

neris

Were the publicans not the ones a few years ago putting pressure on the government to change off licence hours in the hope that it would bring people back into pubs. Looks like that back fired big time. Hope the off licence groups get their act together and try get the opening/serving times extended.

enricoh

i'd have sympathy for the rural pubs that charge 4 euro a pint because it costs 2 euro a pint when buying a keg, then rates, staff, heating etc.

dont think supermarkets should be able 2 sell booze at a loss personally - people end up drinking way too much. dont really see the point in getted pissed watching the late late show - would prefer to be down the boozer having the craic

ScumLord

enricoh wrote: »

i'd have sympathy for the rural pubs that charge 4 euro a pint because it costs 2 euro a pint when buying a keg, then rates, staff, heating etc.

dont think supermarkets should be able 2 sell booze at a loss personally - people end up drinking way too much. dont really see the point in getted pissed watching the late late show - would prefer to be down the boozer having the craic

Going to the pub doesn't guarantee you "the craic" it's not really the job of the publican to provide "the craic" either. Who's to say staying in watching the late late show doesn't provide just as much of "the craic" as going to the pub and who's to say most people do watch the late late instead of having "the craic" in a pub?

All pubs do these days is provide alcohol, they shouldn't have that trade protected and if there isn't money in selling alcohol then they have to do something else.

Snakeblood

ScumLord wrote: »

Going to the pub doesn't guarantee you "the craic" it's not really the job of the publican to provide "the craic" either. Who's to say staying in watching the late late show doesn't provide just as much of "the craic" as going to the pub and who's to say most people do watch the late late instead of having "the craic" in a pub?

All pubs do these days is provide alcohol, they shouldn't have that trade protected and if there isn't money in selling alcohol then they have to do something else.

What will probably happen is that pubs under the current model will go under, then a new pub will rent the premises for less and start selling with lower overheads and a better chance of making a profit.

If I was a publican I'd be going after the people who own my premises. If I owned my own premises I'd be blaming myself for overpaying.

hatrickpatrick

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think it was price that has now forced our culture to change. Going to house parties instead of meeting in the pub has become the more normal thing to do. If people do go out, plenty of pre drinking is done in the house before hand and the amount spent while out afterwards is minimal. I guess the only way to get the people back now is to become very competitive on price. People will spend when they don't think they're being ripped off - just look at the winter sales. People held off buying stuff before Christmas when they knew there'd be a 30% discount afterwards.

The pub landlords say they can't lower prices because they've locked themselves into high rent agreements, and that wages are too high (despite the minimum wage being reduced). I do think the era of the small village with 10 pubs is coming to a close and probably no harm either.

Sorry to drag up a quote from many pages ago, but am I the only one who sees this as a fairly positive development? I nearly always seem to have more fun at the pre drinks than at the eventual pub or club outing, so IMO a move to house parties being the more common event is great!

There are a few places in town which still are fantastic. NV / Kobra bar on Leeson street springs to mind. You have to pay a tenner in on a Friday night but they sell two drinks for the price of one for the entire night, the price of one pint generally being around €5 or €6 for some beers, so essentially you're getting each drink for €2.50 or €3.

Why is it only nightclubs which do this? Couldn't ordinary pubs try having drinks promotions and NOT ripping off their customers?

Everyone goes on about "but they have to cover their costs" - IMO, if a nightclub like NV with fancy lighting all over the place, hundreds of speakers, loud music playing all night and a fully heated outdoor area can afford to pay the bills for all of the aforementioned and still give away incredibly cheap drink, how is it possible that a smaller establishment cannot? Particularly when you consider the area of town nv is in having relatively high rents and property prices compared with a lot of other places...

The only conclusion I can come to is that either (a) because of said promotions they get a much higher turnout than most places, or (b) that they are not a bunch of greedy bastards who think it's ok to charge 3 or 4 times what an off license would charge for a bottle of feckin' beer!

discus

neris wrote: »

Were the publicans not the ones a few years ago putting pressure on the government to change off licence hours in the hope that it would bring people back into pubs. Looks like that back fired big time. Hope the off licence groups get their act together and try get the opening/serving times extended.

It really did backfire, didn't it? So often on nights out with different groups, someone will suggest grabbing cans around 9:45 and head to a house!

iPlop

discus wrote: »

It really did backfire, didn't it? So often on nights out with different groups, someone will suggest grabbing cans around 9:45 and head to a house!

Yeah this happens all the time now.We usually start getting ready to leave the pub about 10:30.The pub is just a stop off to the off licence ,have 2 or 3 pints then go to a house where there are no restricted hours.I used to love going out to the pub on a Friday night about 10 years ago.Even the wifes little bro and his mates that are in their early 20's do the same.Until prices come down and the hours are extended it's never going to be the same.When people go out they don't want their night to end at 11:30 or 12:30 simple.

senordingdong

Sink The Banana wrote: »

Yeah this happens all the time now.We usually start getting ready to leave the pub about 10:30.The pub is just a stop off to the off licence ,have 2 or 3 pints then go to a house where there are no restricted hours.I used to love going out to the pub on a Friday night about 10 years ago.Even the wifes little bro and his mates that are in their early 20's do the same.Until prices come down and the hours are extended it's never going to be the same.When people go out they don't want their night to end at 11:30 or 12:30 simple.

Too ****ing right.

Sad to think they had that much sway to begin with.
Hope the off licenses stand tough against the publicans, lest they get dragged down with them.

hucktheberry

Hi
I'd just like to make a few points as a publican:
1. I do not think that publicans should try and prevent supermarkets/off licenses from selling alcohol cheaply. This is competition and we have to tackle it like most other industries have to. Yes the pub trade is dying but minimum price alcohol is not going to get people back into the pub and certainly isn't going to help the publicans image with our customers.

2. As a non-national I have always been amazed as to how passionate people are about the price of a pint, especially Guinness, more so than any other product, like the cost of petrol or bread etc. I get the impression from customers that it is almost as if the pub isn't a business and that the publican shouldn't be making a profit and from other publicans that the pub is some how sacred there isn't the need to be profitable in bad times as well as good to survive. Not sure if that made sense but it's just something i've felt the 15 years I've been here.

3. Comparing a bottle of beer bought in a supermarket with the price of a beer in a pub is not correct as they are two different markets. It is not the price that most customers care about it is value for money. If the customer does not feel that they have received value for money then they are unhappy. This should not be thought of as being cheap. Good value for money is a subjective thing that cannot be achieved by just lowering the price of a pint.

4. Pubs are in competition with supermarkets, other pubs, cinemas and other leisure forms so they have to offer something different. Sure you can buy a beer in a supermarket and take it home and for some people that is fine but some people want something else and you have to entice them in to your pub as opposed to going bowling , cinema etc. For too long pubs held a monopoly on what people did in Ireland and this has changed - publicans have been slow to react to that.

5. As pubs are in competition with each other, they have to offer different things from each other - some can be price driven "€3 pints", some are sports/event driven and some are expensive fancy cocktail bars where €7 a pint is charged. This may be crazy for some people but for others that price is acceptable. Now these places in a recession are obviously in decline but to simply state that all pubs should reduce their prices to increase business is not correct.

6. I do believe there were an excess of bars in Ireland and the closure of some of these is a natural part competition in business and a possible outcome every business owner knows and fears.

I do however take exception to some of the vitriol posted on this forum against publicans. Sure there were greedy publicans during the Celtic Tiger but they were joined by many other people in their greed and they didn't destroy this country like the bankers and politicians. I know many publicans, like myself, who are small family run business that are just struggling to make a living. If you're unhappy with the value you are getting from a pub then don't go there but to then wish that the publican loses his livelihood is poor form.

Cheers!

misterdeeds

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Saw this on RTE today, the VFI are calling for a minimum price on alcohol and to prevent below cost selling. They say the supermarkets are destroying them by luring customers in with cheap alcohol in order to sell them groceries. Without a minimum price they say they will be put out of business.

To be honest, my sympathy for them is in short supply. They were price gougers during the boom and the truth has come home to roost for them. They then tried to form a cartel in order to keep prices up. To be honest I wouldn't be too disappointed if the pub trade kicked the bucket although I would feel for the staff.

So would you be disappointed if the Pub trade shrank dramatically? Do we need a minimum price?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0103/alcohol.html

I have no sympathy for any of them at all lets cast our minds back a few years say 5 (the boom years)when all year round entry to most of the pubs were free to get into and then all of a sudden on new years eve walla it was a fiver hard luck publicans uve have been robbing the public long enough (whos sorry now) its cos of this pure greed the ordinary joe looses his job and thats the sad part .

hucktheberry

Misterdeeds
There are few points I'd like to raise with you:
Firstly - not all publicans are members of the VFI and some of us do not agree that a minimum price on alcohol is the answer to the pubs problems.

Secondly - nearly everyone was taking advantage of the boom years and charging higher prices for their services. It is a natural part of supply and demand and many different industries increase their prices when they expect high demand eg airlines, hotels, plumbers etc etc. Also many pubs put on bands etc on NYE and cover the cost of them by charging an entrance fee. This is business - you only feel you're being robbed because you didn't feel that the 5er in was value for money. That night the publican didn't get it right for you.

It is a huge leap to then say publicans have been robbing the public - we have been guilty of not providing value for money, we have been guilty of not adapting to a changing market and we have been guilty and still are of having the wrong people speak for us - but due to this economic downturn this will change.

The original poster stated that he had little sympathy for publicans.
I do not expect sympathy that my business is suffering from a recession. This is the nature of business - get on with.
Nor do I think publicans are looking for sympathy. The VFI are trying to look at solutions to their members downturn in business but they have got the wrong idea on this on. It would be like cinemas trying to ban tvs years ago to stop people staying at home to watch a movie instead of going to the cinema. Sure, there are less cinemas now but people still go to them and they do make a profit by offering a different experience - pubs can do the same.