The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

bucketybuck

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Look back at my previous posts on this thread... minimum pricing is only one thing that's going to happen, tax on off-sales will go up, savings on multiple purchases to be done away with, an all-Ireland alcohol policy to look at things like similar pricing in the two political jurisdictions and further restrictions on the sale and availability of alcohol.

Hi Bobby, it seems you are alive and well. If so, would you perhaps like to respond to my repeated requests for a valid cite for all these claims you are stating as fact?

Should I hold my breath on this Bobby? You do have evidence for these claims don't you? You wouldn't be pulling this stuff from your backside now would you Bobby?

bucketybuck wrote: »

Those are all just news reports of the same statement from the same minister, a statement which is nothing new to those of us following the thread. Additionally, none of them mention the issue of crossing the border in the event of minimum pricing.

Like to try again?

bucketybuck wrote: »

Once again, cite? All you offered previously were unsubstantiated media reports commenting on one statement from a minister. You are stating the above as given facts, would you care to provide some evidence for this?

Chuck Stone

4leto wrote: »

although cigs are very bad for you the prime reason I stopped was because of the price of them.

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm stopping for the same reason, I'm also reducing my drinking due to prices.

sssssssh.

:pac:

Leftist

4leto wrote: »

I wouldn't I was just making the point of how cheap alcohol actually is even here.

And price does have an influence on our behaviour for example although cigs are very bad for you the prime reason I stopped was because of the price of them.

cigs don't have the same effect as alcohol and are not as cherished by the general public.

being forced outside, along with prices has put more people off smoking.

As a smoker I would gladly stop if I had enough will power.

But drinking is different. People enjoy a drink, it may reduce in theory the intake of casual drinkers, but it would have no effect on alcoholics.

Ergo: what's the point?

Icyseanfitz

so things arnt bad enough without making a bit of drinking more expensive :mad: GTFO with this money grubbing ****e, and drink isnt cheap in ireland to begin with ffs, go to spain or greece and you will see cheap drink,

instead of tackling issues that are far more important, they are worrying about alcohol prices :rolleyes: this country is so arse backwards its not even funny, and then she says that this cheaper drink in supermarkets is making alcoholics.......yeah because up until 5 years ago the country had a shortage of them right,

she is clearly in the vintners back pockets anyway

ardinn

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

she is clearly in the vintners back pockets anyway

This needs more :rolleyes:

Tazz T

Another stupid pretend politician who hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

If I came on here and said booze is too cheap, it should be put up and quoted €2.50 a bottle of wine as she did or 50c a can as the mayor of Dublin did, I'd be ridiculed.

There are no €2.50 bottles of wine or 50c cans of beer in the Republic of Ireland. It isn't even near the mark. I'm a professional sourcer of cheap drink since the pubs became too expensive and you lot hammered the economy meaning I have to look for cheap booze to have at home cos I can't afford to go out. And now you want to take that away. Give us the evidence of this cheap booze or GTFO!

Spiritofthekop

Will Chocolate cakes have to get a minimum pricing then??...where does it end?

70% of Irish men suffer from being over weight & having bad health which has a knock on effect on the taxes on hospitals & health problems

"Tackling drug and alcohol abuse is a completly seperate issue. People are not alcoholics because of cheap booze in supermarkets. All this will do is once again raise another cost for regular people who want to enjoy one of the last luxuries left. Why should I have to pay extra for a bottle of wine to drink at home on a Saturday night becasue there are not sufficient alcohol education programmes by the government? This woman is looking for votes and to tick some boxes without any clear research into the problem backing this. Will people who have drink problems suddenly decide to go teetotal if this was introduced? NO, they would still find a way to get drink! Show me the findings that led to this idea please as it appears extremely flawed already"

mikom

Spiritofthekop wrote: »

All this will do is once again raise another cost for regular people who want to enjoy one of the last luxuries left.

Why should I have to pay extra for a bottle of wine to drink at home on a Saturday night becasue there are not sufficient alcohol education programmes by the government?

Welcome to the world of the cannabis smoker.

All this will do is once again raise another cost for regular people who want to enjoy one of the last luxuries left.

Why should I have to pay extra for an joint to smoke at home on a Saturday night becasue there are not sufficient drug education programmes by the government?

Elmer Blooker

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Look back at my previous posts on this thread... minimum pricing is only one thing that's going to happen, tax on off-sales will go up, savings on multiple purchases to be done away with, an all-Ireland alcohol policy to look at things like similar pricing in the two political jurisdictions and further restrictions on the sale and availability of alcohol.

thats what its all about tax,tax and more tax!
How very cunning of her to disguise yet another tax as being in the interests of "combating underage binge drinking" When I see scumbags guzzling bottles of sauvignon blanc and rioja on the street then I think she might have a case.
Me, I'll be heading up north to avoid yet another stealth tax.

senordingdong

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

she is clearly in the vintners back pockets anyway

Not so sure about this.
Pubs are too expensive as it is and are losing customers rapidly.
This will increase the price further, and thus drive away customers further.
Is she really in the vintners back pockets? Because they will stand to lose from this?

ArmaniJeanss

senordingdong wrote: »

Not so sure about this.
Pubs are too expensive as it is and are losing customers rapidly.
This will increase the price further, and thus drive away customers further.
Is she really in the vintners back pockets? Because they will stand to lose from this?

Eh, the vintners don't lose from a 'minimum price per unit of alcohol' rule as they are already selling it at a price higher than any minimum.
Say a minimum of €1.50 per half litre (the standard can) is the rule. Its affects the 6 cans for €6 offlicense sale, which now goes up to €9. But the €4/€5 pub pint is above the minimum and doesn't need to go up.

bryaner

ardinn wrote: »

Excise free eh?

I need a picard!!!

Excise free from a bonded warehouse that customs has a presence in most weeks??

Excise free from a bonded warehouse that security is so strict on you need government licences and security to even apply for?

Get out!

I guess you don't have the right contacts so..

senordingdong

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Eh, the vintners don't lose from a 'minimum price per unit of alcohol' rule as they are already selling it at a price higher than any minimum.
Say a minimum of €1.50 per half litre (the standard can) is the rule. Its affects the 6 cans for €6 offlicense sale, which now goes up to €9. But the €4/€5 pub pint is above the minimum and doesn't need to go up.

Yes but it's not going to help them get punters in. So their sales will continue to decline.

bobbysands81

bucketybuck wrote: »

Hi Bobby, it seems you are alive and well. If so, would you perhaps like to respond to my repeated requests for a valid cite for all these claims you are stating as fact?

Should I hold my breath on this Bobby? You do have evidence for these claims don't you? You wouldn't be pulling this stuff from your backside now would you Bobby?

Seriously, why would I lie about this? I've read your challenges for me to back my claims up with evidence but that's not going to happen, now you can call me a bullsh*tter if you like but you'll see in time whether I'm telling the truth or not mate.

bucketybuck

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Seriously, why would I lie about this? I've read your challenges for me to back my claims up with evidence but that's not going to happen, now you can call me a bullsh*tter if you like but you'll see in time whether I'm telling the truth or not mate.

Thank you I think I will.

Fact is, you got absolutely nothing. Sweet fanny adams. Fuck all squared. You just pulled an opinion on the matter from your backside and tried to present yourself as some sort of internet in-the-know.

It doesnt help any discussion to have one person presenting opinion as fact, as others will tend to skim the thread and assume that those facts have been verified. So if you are going to continue spouting these claims, perhaps you should have some integrity and stop pretending you are basing them on anything more than your own imagination.

I won't hold my breath on that either.

bobbysands81

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thank you I think I will.

Fact is, you got absolutely nothing. Sweet fanny adams. Fuck all squared. You just pulled an opinion on the matter from your backside and tried to present yourself as some sort of internet in-the-know.

It doesnt help any discussion to have one person presenting opinion as fact, as others will tend to skim the thread and assume that those facts have been verified. So if you are going to continue spouting these claims, perhaps you should have some integrity and stop pretending you are basing them on anything more than your own imagination.

I won't hold my breath on that either.

Nice, way to go mate. A lot of anger you have there.

Try and relax and understand why some people would be reluctant to reveal sources on an internet forum.

Weissbier

ardinn wrote: »

Weissbier wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance! I assumed it was the Vitners as all the local pubs put the price up equally, based on your reply and my experience, a more correct statement would be that the local cartel of pubs put up the price!!

Apologies for the error!

Generally a VAT increase, but your ignorance is excused!

Many thanks, you're so generous, as generous as a publican!!

On these occasions when I noticed these increases was when I worked in the pub trade, so I've a fair idea what went on. The many different rises I noted sometimes coincided with VAT increases, ie two increases at once!! Small one for Government and a bigger one for the publican. This Christmas rise was always an easy one for publicans to hide their greed and blame the Government. But the publicans were not afraid to again add another increase during the year, as I saw more increases outside of budget time. Just more greed!

suicide_circus

The EU ruled against the last government when they tried to set a minimum price on cigarettes, how will this government get away with a minimum price for drink? Surely EU competition/consumer laws will kick in again

bobbysands81

And now there's news coming out this morning that the DUP want to look at the price that alcohol is sold at in supermarkets and off licenses. Well I did say that an All-Ireland alcohol policy was being looked at.

Just another lucky guess from me I suppose, sure even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

iregk

I remember working in a pub in the late 90's. Coming up to Christmas the boss asked me for help adjusting the price on the tills. Basically putting them up for the Christmas rush. I'm standing at one till and he is calling out drinks, Guinness 5p, Carlsberg 10p, Heineken 10p, actually no stick 15 on that instead.

I'm sorry but I've fcuk all sympathy for the pubs. A few years ago many may remember the gov moved to freeze the price of alcohol when it was growing out of control. The VFI came out and said it was ridiculous as it prevented pubs from lowering prices. The gov rolled back on it and priced went up again. Again no sympathy lads.

Add to all that during the boom they changed pubs. They got rid of the very reason you went in there, entertainment. Gone were the dart boards and pool tables. They were after all only taking up drinking space where they could squeeze in a few additional punters at €50 per hour net spend on drink. Now they are soulless empty places. Bring back proper pubs and proper prices and you will bring back the crowds.

bucketybuck

bobbysands81 wrote: »

And now there's news coming out this morning that the DUP want to look at the price that alcohol is sold at in supermarkets and off licenses.

Cite? Or is this classified also?

stovelid

4leto wrote: »

Is it just me who thinks alcohol is far to cheap. It is possible for me to buy 3 large bottles of spirit in a supermarket and get drunk for a week on 60€.

With those prices I am surprised we don't have bigger problems with alcohol in this country.

As alcohol is still wildly expensive here compared to other European countries, I suppose all those countries with much cheaper drink have worse problems with binge drinking and alcoholism than us?

I thought not.

You don't address a cultural and licensing issue with increased taxes.

This is nothing more than an attempt to gather revenue and appease the powerful publican lobby under a insincere health agenda.

dermo88

Beer in pubs is no longer as wildly expensive compared to our European neighbours. Spirits and soft drinks on the other hand are significantly more expensive.

I would argue that the price over the last 10 years, since 2001 has not gone crazy. Consider in 2001, IEP2.80 (EUR3.55) was the normal price of a Pint of Lager in Dublin. Now, its around EUR4.50. This is the lowest increase in a decade since the 1950s, although the recession since late 2007 does skew matters.

In rural areas we were "overpubbed". There were too many outlets for the population.

In the likes of Dublin, there were shortages.

There is no doubt that there is a cartel at work on 3 angles:

(a) The Suppliers. Ireland is effectively a Duopoly market with Diageo on one hand, Beamish and Crawford on the other.
(b) Its a small market, so its easier to 'rig'
(c) Taxes are high due to demand, so called health concerns, and other assorted politically correct nonsense. There is an element of lace curtainism that will tax anyone seen to have fun.
(d) The Vintners Federation are the final part, and are a powerful lobby group when it comes to politicians. 60% of TD's have a primary (direct) or secondary (family) interest in the pub trade in some shape or form.

I think this combination is unique to a European country, but every European economy has some sort of monopoly abuse to some extent. The Dutch mafia control their taxi industry so theirs (for example) are the most expensive in the European Union.

The good thing is recessions have a good way of weeding out parasites and bad businesses die. If a publican survives this recession, and gets customers, I say well done. During the boom, they did abuse their position, and I despised them until the smoking ban.

After the smoking ban, well.....I began to miss the old way of life. But....there are other things to do.....more to life.....and I can live with that.

All that is happening is a switch to a more European consumption pattern, which is well overdue.

Its not all about price either. The pub I drink in regularly is relatively expensive, around 4:30 for Guinness nearly 5 euro for larger but I still drink there before the cheaper places close by as its a nice place, the staff are all sound and give us a free round every now and then (as we are regulars), dont boot us out the minute closing time comes around etc.

Id much rather pay 4 euro for a pint in a decent pub than 3 euro for a pint in a dive.

mikemac

I remember when cider was the cheapest pint in the bar, well apart from Beamish

Then Charlie McCreevy racked up the duty on cider and the publicans lobbed on a few cent for themselves of course
And then Bulmers decided to market themselves as a premium drink and surprisingly it worked, sales went up

Then Diagio put a bucket-load of money behind Hudson Blue. They had some incredible ads, some of the best they've ever done
But it failed and Hudson Blue is no more. No loss, it was awful but credit to their marketing team

dermo88

Then Charlie McCreevy racked up the duty on cider and the publicans lobbed on a few cent for themselves of course

That sounds like a very similar scam pulled by the Malaysian Finance minister Ahmed Abdullah Badawi in 2004. He decided that Beer would be taxed on the basis of it containing 10% alcohol by volume rather than 5%. The result.

Consumption switched from beer to hard liquor.....smuggling soared, illicit drug consumption ALSO rose.

It was by far the worst policy implementation I have yet encountered from any country in my life.

Mind, he did have an ulterior motive. Although he is a Muslim, he was (allegedly LOL) a closet wine drinker. So oddly enough the price of a bottle of plonk dropped by 30%, while beer went up by a good 20%. His rationale being, "if they are going to drink, at least let it be civilised with a meal'

Thankfully.....so far there has been no booze increase since, but Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong have some of the most expensive Draught beer prices you'll encounter if you go to the wrong places.
_______________________________________________________________

BUT

Back to Ireland. The Cider taxation was to bring it in line with Beer and Stout, since it traditionally carried a lower tax rate, and (surprisingly) until the early 1980's, it was cheaper than both Stout and Lager, hence its downmarket image and poor reputation until recent times. A shame really, because it is a wonderful drink on a summers day.

Then you have the marketing plans of new products. Have they learned anything:

Guinness Light
Breo
Hudson Blue

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Ireland knows how to make decent Stout and Red Ale, and bloody good whiskey. Leave the Lager making to the Germans.....they've been doing it for hundreds of years. Wine....well.....until recently we were getting French reject produce and thought we were all sophisticated with "Le Piat Dor" or who could forget the absolute paintstripper in Blue Nun and Black Tower....(Christ). The only one of all those nasty kitsch 1970's, 1980's wines I'd regard as decent until now is Mateus Rose (Portugal).

People do not believe me when I say Kilkenny Cream Ale (Very popular in Asia) is Irish dishwater compared to what we can offer with clean pipes and good maintainance - Smithwicks in modern pubs can taste like geanc, but in older pubs.....you can find some proper gems in a well poured lovingly cared for Pint.

bobbysands81

bucketybuck wrote: »

Cite? Or is this classified also?

Did we watch the Frontline tonight?

Drey

I am wondering if anyone can give me any info on the percentage of beer v's spirits sold in pubs in Ireland?

amacachi

Beers generally 4-5%, spirits 30-40%.

senordingdong

I think he's asking what percentage of the pub trades sales are beer, and what percentage are spirits.

Alas, I do not have that info.