The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

Capt'n Midnight

StudentDad wrote: »

Thing is we don't NEED to buy drink. It's a discretionary thing. If I'm shopping I think, 'will I buy a few bottles or cans of beer?' I'll look at what's available and if something is priced fairly I'll consider it. I've often left shops without drink because the price is too high.

NI are planning a similar change at the same time to pre-empt people crossing the border because revenue aren't stupid.

And as you say beer money is discretionary for most people. People who drink at home because they can't afford to go to the pub all the time will now have less money to spend at the pub.

Do the vintners realise this ?

StudentDad

StudentDad wrote: »

Thing is we don't NEED to buy drink. It's a discretionary thing. If I'm shopping I think, 'will I buy a few bottles or cans of beer?' I'll look at what's available and if something is priced fairly I'll consider it. I've often left shops without drink because the price is too high.

I'm not an alcoholic. I can take it or leave it. The alcoholic won't.

You don't have to be an alcoholic to buy drink regularly for some drinking is part of their weekend so they aren't going to leave it and therefore this will end up costing them extra money every week.

As I said earlier in the thread this measure is annoys me very much but won't make a massive difference as most of my drinking is done in the pub but when I do buy drink for at home I like to get it cheap.

elperello

See this support for the bill in the Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/regulating-alcohol-abuse-by-way-of-new-legislation-is-to-be-welcomed-1.2093106

I quote -
" Depending on public reaction, the charge may vary by 20 per cent or more. That was clever. In addition, the Minister can depend on the traditional off-licence sector for support. For purely commercial reasons, it has campaigned for years against supermarkets and low-cost outlets."

It is clear that if you are an average moderate drinker who enjoys a drink at home you are being played, pure and simple.

oppenheimer1

Willa Juicy Sorrow wrote: »

An odd pub will get away without tv's but most won't. Even when there aren't big events on there will alway be a few in a group wanting to keep an eye on something or other on TV sport wise so pubs without sky lose a lot of business and that's leaving aside big matches, big golf tournaments etc.

I know the owner of one pub who tried cancelling sky, only lasted about two weeks as business took a nose dive without it.

I don't know about all pubs being able to survive without a tv. A lot of people do go to watch matches and the like so it wouldn't be a good idea to get rid of it. I don't know of anyone that goes to a pub to listen to piped music that gets ratcheted up in volume every half hour. I was in in a Dublin pub over the weekend and that bull**** was going on. We had one drink and left. **** putting up with that nonsense, we went back to a house where we could actually chat

syklops

It is, in truth, a limited measure that concentrates on below-cost selling of alcohol in supermarket and garage outlets, rather than on culture-related changes that were recommended by expert advisory groups.

Since when have garages been a place to buy cheap alcohol? In my experience, garages are usually more expensive. Also, my nearest Molloys off license is next door to a Dunnes and they consistently beat Dunnes on price of spirits. I honeslty feel like we are being lied to on this bill.

Flex

elperello wrote: »

See this support for the bill in the Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/regulating-alcohol-abuse-by-way-of-new-legislation-is-to-be-welcomed-1.2093106

I quote -
" Depending on public reaction, the charge may vary by 20 per cent or more. That was clever. In addition, the Minister can depend on the traditional off-licence sector for support. For purely commercial reasons, it has campaigned for years against supermarkets and low-cost outlets."

It is clear that if you are an average moderate drinker who enjoys a drink at home you are being played, pure and simple.

As mentioned earlier, it's frustrating reading articles like this. There's a constant stream of "everyone's in favour of this, everyone's delighted the governments doing this...". It's completely contrary to what I've seen and heard. And referencing our 'binge drinking problem', I can't help but think they must've read the HSE website and are aware that two pints of 5% Heineken is defined as binge drinking, so why perpetuate that

Ironically the people most vocal in the media about supporting this are the LVA and the VFI (saying not only are they in favour of it, but that they want immediate implementation and that the price has to be set at a very high level). What does that tell you about this whole thing

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't know about all pubs being able to survive without a tv. A lot of people do go to watch matches and the like so it wouldn't be a good idea to get rid of it. I don't know of anyone that goes to a pub to listen to piped music that gets ratcheted up in volume every half hour. I was in in a Dublin pub over the weekend and that bull**** was going on. We had one drink and left. **** putting up with that nonsense, we went back to a house where we could actually chat

Personally I like music loud when I'm out. I usually have it as loud as possible when I'm at home too, how loud that is depends if I'm In the city or out the county where neighbours are not a concern.

syklops

Willa Juicy Sorrow wrote: »

Personally I like music loud when I'm out. I usually have it as loud as possible when I'm at home too, how loud that is depends if I'm In the city or out the county where neighbours are not a concern.

And I like it quiet. People have different tastes and publicans need to realise that. By trying to be all things to all people you end up with the same generic atmosphere in so many places you go. TVs with the sound turned down, music which increases in volume every hour or so. Guinness, Heineken, Budweiser and Bulmers on tap and nothing else. Even the bar menu is the same in so many places.

diograis

roll on Wetherspoons opening in Cork this month! woop

oppenheimer1

Willa Juicy Sorrow wrote: »

Personally I like music loud when I'm out. I usually have it as loud as possible when I'm at home too, how loud that is depends if I'm In the city or out the county where neighbours are not a concern.

So loud that you can't hear the person you were trying to chat to sitting next to you?

Yiikes

diograis wrote: »

roll on Wetherspoons opening in Cork this month! woop

They better have a big building!

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So loud that you can't hear the person you were trying to chat to sitting next to you?

I just shout, I've held conversations in extremly loud clubs for years without too much difficulty.

Muahahaha

lads its unsure if Leo's bill will ever see the light of day. The Scottish govt. are being taken to the EU courts by the whiskey industry there who are a very powerful lobby, it could take at least a year before we get a decision on that case.

So if you don't want minimum pricing you'll have an opportunity not to vote for FG candidates before Leo's bill has a chance to be enacted. The cost of living and how much people have in their pockets at the end of the week will be a big election topic. FG offering us tax cuts to buy the election will be met with derision if they intend to introduce more measures that decrease whats in peoples pockets in any case, they'll be seen to be giving with one hand and taking with the other.

syklops

Muahahaha wrote: »

lads its unsure if Leo's bill will ever see the light of day. The Scottish govt. are being taken to the EU courts by the whiskey industry there who are a very powerful lobby, it could take at least a year before we get a decision on that case.

So if you don't want minimum pricing you'll have an opportunity not to vote for FG candidates before Leo's bill has a chance to be enacted. The cost of living and how much people have in their pockets at the end of the week will be a big election topic. FG offering us tax cuts to buy the election will be met with derision if they intend to introduce more measures that decrease whats in peoples pockets in any case, they'll be seen to be giving with one hand and taking with the other.

Well lets hope, but Ive a horrile suspiscion it will go under the radar for a while and then there will be a big headline on the front of the Irish Times "Alcohol Bill signed into law", and my 4 cans of Prasky will be 8.80 and 5.50 no longer.

Idbatterim

They're trying to get this introduced in the north at the same time, to combat the very idea of going on a beer run up there.

surely this could be a great money spinner for them? its not like they couldnt use the cash, then again I suppose if they didnt do it, that the irish government would also follow suit or raise it a meagre enough amount that it didnt make sense to go up north to get it...

Bongalongherb

I honestly couldn't care less if most of the pubs in Ireland closed down, greedy ass-holes and always were.

Once I can purchase reasonably priced cans or bottles of beer from a super-market to take home and enjoy while watching a few movies then that's grand for me.

I gave up going to pubs because of the crap music - over-priced beer and crowded stink-holes selling slops when they know everyone is basically drunk. They are really crying like little babies to the government now because they can't maintain their intake of rip-off charges to the consumer. **** them. You can't even enjoy a can/bottle of beer in your own home now because they want to wreak that for everyone as well. Ass-holes.

SeanW

Muahahaha wrote: »

So if you don't want minimum pricing you'll have an opportunity not to vote for FG candidates before Leo's bill has a chance to be enacted. The cost of living and how much people have in their pockets at the end of the week will be a big election topic.

The problem is that AFAIK there is no actual opposition to this:

1) Fianna Fail has a lot of publicans in the back benches => major conflict of interest there hence Michael McDowell got spectacularly shot down with his - entirely sensible - idea for Cafe Bars.
2) Labour? Being on the authoritarian-Left, they seem to think it doesn't go far enough.
3) Sinn Fein? They are on the rabid Authoritarian-Left. They will be essential to mirroring this in the North, to make sure that people have no workarounds.

Not for the first time has our government signalled its intention to drag Ireland away from what a free society should be doing - note the implementation of the Swedish model on sex work - also agreed between all parties.

It's all well and good to say "don't vote for FG at the next election" and I certainly won't be doing that. Problem is that Ireland seems to be being pulled towards the Authoritarian-Left at a extremely frenetic pace by the political class, and there is nowhere for a person who wants to live in a free society to turn.

syklops

SeanW wrote: »

The problem is that AFAIK there is no actual opposition to this:

1) Fianna Fail has a lot of publicans in the back benches => major conflict of interest there hence Michael McDowell got spectacularly shot down with his - entirely sensible - idea for Cafe Bars.
2) Labour? Being on the authoritarian-Left, they seem to think it doesn't go far enough.
3) Sinn Fein? They are on the rabid Authoritarian-Left. They will be essential to mirroring this in the North, to make sure that people have no workarounds.

Not for the first time has our government signalled its intention to drag Ireland away from what a free society should be doing - note the implementation of the Swedish model on sex work - also agreed between all parties.

It's all well and good to say "don't vote for FG at the next election" and I certainly won't be doing that. Problem is that Ireland seems to be being pulled towards the Authoritarian-Left at a extremely frenetic pace by the political class, and there is nowhere for a person who wants to live in a free society to turn.

Its not just me whose scared then.

cerastes

SeanW wrote: »

The problem is that AFAIK there is no actual opposition to this:

1) Fianna Fail has a lot of publicans in the back benches => major conflict of interest there hence Michael McDowell got spectacularly shot down with his - entirely sensible - idea for Cafe Bars.
2) Labour? Being on the authoritarian-Left, they seem to think it doesn't go far enough.
3) Sinn Fein? They are on the rabid Authoritarian-Left. They will be essential to mirroring this in the North, to make sure that people have no workarounds.

Not for the first time has our government signalled its intention to drag Ireland away from what a free society should be doing - note the implementation of the Swedish model on sex work - also agreed between all parties.

It's all well and good to say "don't vote for FG at the next election" and I certainly won't be doing that. Problem is that Ireland seems to be being pulled towards the Authoritarian-Left at a extremely frenetic pace by the political class, and there is nowhere for a person who wants to live in a free society to turn.

Am I reading this right? but its the centerist, left or right of it that are nanny stating people and imposing their supposed values on people.
The likes of Varadker makes me sick, how this isnt authoritarian, its down right facist pontification.
I take very few drinks, probably only every other week, I agree there is a problem, this isnt the way to deal with it, but I havent seen or heard anyone else support this SF or otherwise. Its no surprise to me FG or FF would fall over themselves to introduce it or that labour would lackey up to it.
The only thing I can hope for is that it puts the final nail in the vintners federation as they seem to think this wont drive what remaining customers they have away to other drinking.
Can only pray that Scotland manages to oppose this and NI will lead or follow, becuase I know the resolve doesnt really exist here to stand up to anything and becuase here our representatives do not give a damn about actually dealing with problems and think they will tax us out of it, which inreality is a tax to keep their supporters sweet.

Capt'n Midnight

Idbatterim wrote: »

surely this could be a great money spinner for them? its not like they couldnt use the cash, then again I suppose if they didnt do it, that the irish government would also follow suit or raise it a meagre enough amount that it didnt make sense to go up north to get it...

This is a minimum price not an increase in tax.

So the government might get a small increase in VAT because of the higher price but they'd have got that VAT anyway on most spending unless people cut back on food or clothes to pay for new prices.

But even if then it would be more than offset by the loss in excise duty caused by reduced consumption.


The extra cost will be going into the scoffers of the supermarkets, publicans and the alcohol industry.




The more I think of this the worse it gets.

Anyone who thinks that will usher in a golden age of craft beers is deluding themselves. Some people will stick to their brands. Others will buy whatever is cheapest. This means massive profits for the cheaper brews and possibly more advertising in sports and pub refurbs (I hate paying over the odds to fund a tacky pub) Why would anyone buy cheapo beer when the better brands are the same price ? Free T-Shirts and glasses and competitions and pringles and other munchies. It's in the sellers interest to sell you the plonk because they can make so much more profit on it than on the decent stuff. Remember it's minimum retail price not min. wholesale price.



So the plan is to benefit small retailers by producing a level field ?
And the way they are going to do that is by forcing the supermarkets make a profit of €1 on a can that costs less than 30c ?

They'll solve any below cost selling of alcohol all right, because now the supermarkets will be able to sell just about everything else except baby formula below cost.

It'll also solve the drinking problem by turning offies into gold mines.

Muahahaha

SeanW wrote: »

The problem is that AFAIK there is no actual opposition to this:

1) Fianna Fail has a lot of publicans in the back benches => major conflict of interest there hence Michael McDowell got spectacularly shot down with his - entirely sensible - idea for Cafe Bars.
2) Labour? Being on the authoritarian-Left, they seem to think it doesn't go far enough.
3) Sinn Fein? They are on the rabid Authoritarian-Left. They will be essential to mirroring this in the North, to make sure that people have no workarounds.

Not for the first time has our government signalled its intention to drag Ireland away from what a free society should be doing - note the implementation of the Swedish model on sex work - also agreed between all parties.

It's all well and good to say "don't vote for FG at the next election" and I certainly won't be doing that. Problem is that Ireland seems to be being pulled towards the Authoritarian-Left at a extremely frenetic pace by the political class, and there is nowhere for a person who wants to live in a free society to turn.

It pains me to say it but you've hit the nail on the head here. I never liked Michael McDowell when he was Minister for Justice but at least his policies were liberal and took on the vested interests in the pub trade. There really is nowhere for liberal voters (on the left or right) can turn to for support on nanny state laws like this one.

Its also sad to see in the media that everything you hear on this is in support of it, I've barely heard one dissenting voice yet everyone I've spoken to seems annoyed that the govt. are now hitting one of their few remaining pleasures that can be had at an affordable price and taking it and driving it out of their price reach. I've heard some mates speaking of annual trips with a van to France to stock up if this comes in, that's how much people are pissed off about it. Personally if it comes in and 6 beers that did cost €8 goes up to €11 or €12 then I'm gonna ramp up my home brewing operation considerably to have a year round stock of a few beers I like. I don't think the government has thought of this for the rest of the population, home brewing is cheap and pretty easy, you can produce your own beer in 40 pint batches for under 30c a pint. If the minimum price of something like Dutch Gold is going to be €2 a can then it won't be long before some people realise that they can brew much superior beer to Dutch Gold and they can brew almost 7 pints of it for €2.

syklops wrote: »

Its not just me whose scared then.

you're not alone, I'm getting pretty sick of living in this country too. No matter what govt gets elected I cant see much changing either. I used to think that it was a generational thing with our politicians and that when the older more conservative generation retire Ireland will improve. But then you see young politicians like Michelle Mulherrin going on about her fornicating and you wonder are we in for more decades of conservatism with a pandering to the Church. Leo himself is only 36, I thought he might be a bit liberal but it seems with laws like this he is just pandering to the vested interests of publicans and breweries. I thought we might get a fresh way of thinking with someone young in office and that he would see beyond the bluster but alas no, more of the same oul sh1te.

syklops

While we are on the subject of ridiculousnous, whats the deal on Baby Formula? Why can it not legally be sold cheaper than a minimum price?

Any one who knows, this better be good. Does baby formula give some kind of dizzying high that i was unaware of?

anncoates

syklops wrote: »

While we are on the subject of ridiculousnous, whats the deal on Baby Formula? Why can it not legally be sold cheaper than a minimum price??

And it's actually came down in price in recent years, albeit still horribly expensive.

I always assumed they only dropped the price a little because it was one of those products that quite a few people I knew were heading up North to stock up on in bulk.

Ush1

syklops wrote: »

While we are on the subject of ridiculousnous, whats the deal on Baby Formula? Why can it not legally be sold cheaper than a minimum price?

Any one who knows, this better be good. Does baby formula give some kind of dizzying high that i was unaware of?

EU directives to do with encouraging breast feeding.

Same reason they can't do special offers on it and can't advertise first milk, only follow on.

Dravokivich

Ush1 wrote: »

EU directives to do with encouraging breast feeding.

Same reason they can't do special offers on it and can't advertise first milk, only follow on.

Which is a load of balls if the baby won't take to the tit.

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

Which is a load of balls if the baby won't take to the tit.

Yeah but there's a large industry out there designed to make every new parent think a little early difficulty with feeding means you go straight to formula. I mean think about it - there's a very small number of cases where a mother really can't breastfeed.

Not that I am against choice, I am all for it. But the minimum pricing and restrictions on advertising are to stop formula companies undermining what is natural and a lot cheaper for most people. Not an academic argument, we've seen what happens when these restrictions are not in place in the developing world.

syklops

Which is a load of balls if the baby won't take to the tit.

Which is a load of balls if you have a hungry baby and for whatever reason can't feed him/her naturally. Like, WTF?

spiralism

Banjo String wrote: »

They're trying to get this introduced in the north at the same time, to combat the very idea of going on a beer run up there.

What folk should be doing is organising a mass protest, say one Saturday or one Sunday in every month totally boycott pubs. (This should be piss easy really, head for social club/GAA and such instead of vfi bars)

Give it until may or June and Publicans wouldn't be long changing their tune.

People should just suck it up and continue buying from the supermarkets. **** them, if i visit home and want to catch up with my mates i want to do it in the comfort of one of their apartments over a few cans before heading out to the hustle and bustle. Not in a wedged bar shouting over a band and spending a fortune.

**** them, if this comes in, people should take a stand and continue to buy from shops and predrink. Go to the local GAA club if they're mad to go out for a few, but stay out of the pubs. Enough is enough and people should make a point.

The politicians of Ireland are woefully ****ing out of touch in all fairness. "Cross party support" and letting on that the general public are welcoming of the measure yet 90% of the country thinks it's a terrible idea. Brings to mind Ming's proposed weed bill which according to polls was supported by the general public...and denounced cross party, being defeated by like 110 votes.

Why exactly are we electing these gob****es if they're so out of touch with what the people want?

Dravokivich

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah but there's a large industry out there designed to make every new parent think a little early difficulty with feeding means you go straight to formula. I mean think about it - there's a very small number of cases where a mother really can't breastfeed.

Not that I am against choice, I am all for it. But the minimum pricing and restrictions on advertising are to stop formula companies undermining what is natural and a lot cheaper for most people. Not an academic argument, we've seen what happens when these restrictions are not in place in the developing world.

Hmmm... I dunno... the whole starving baby thing would make you think, right so what else can we do because this breast feeding thing isn't working out...

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

Hmmm... I dunno... the whole starving baby thing would make you think, right so what else can we do because this breast feeding thing isn't working out...

I know. But that situation is rare. The formula industry want you to think it is common (which is obviously nonsense unless human evolution took a very odd turn somewhere along the line).

Breastfeeding rates in Norway are well north of 90%, and I don't believe there's anything biologically different about Norwegians?