The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

darkpagandeath

The Th!ng wrote: »

This taken from the following Link.

I keep seeing the mention of "Bellow cost selling" Prof in relation to Booze ? It makes my blood boil when the constantly trot it out. I have not seen one, one fact presented in relation to below cost.

Yes I know that link is for bins.

The Th!ng

Below Cost Selling is a bull**** term used by wanker politicos.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

K4t wrote: »

It wouldn't have to stand for it; It would be on its knees where it belongs. :pac:

What I'm suggesting is an enforced price discrimination initiative, reducing the price of cigarettes in pubs as opposed to other places to attract people to pubs. Of course keeping them there for more than the minute it takes to buy the fags is the problem; perhaps a condition that they buy at least one beverage or item or spend a certain amount before they can buy the fags and must show their receipt on attempting a purchase (the other items cost + the fags would still be less than the selling price of fags elsewhere?)

They don't need a legal requirement to do something like that, though. They can just sell them cheaper than their competitor. Done.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I keep seeing the mention of "Bellow cost selling" Prof in relation to Booze ? It makes my blood boil when the constantly trot it out. I have not seen one, one fact presented in relation to below cost.

Yes I know that link is for bins.

"Below cost selling" seems to only be a problem in Ireland, for some reason...

dr.fuzzenstein

This is great! Get a van or bus and organise booze and fag cruises. Up until now people might have not been bothered with it, but at €10 for a pack of cigarettes, wine not worth buying under €15 a bottle and even beer at over €2 for anything that isn't undrinkable filth, the savings are massive. And its only getting worse. If I did it, I would advertise with the amount you can save by going on a cruise: "go on holiday and have it pay for itself!" Or "buy all your booze and fags for a fraction of the price and this cruise works out free". Another one could be "at those prices you can't afford to quit drinking and smoking" but that may be going too far. :-)
I would probably take out newspaper adverts how much money I was costing the state, or rather how much money the state was costing itself. Monumental greed and monumental stupidity need to be exposed. I know Ireland has a centuries old tradition of ripping people off, but these days its easier to get around. And its guaranteed by the European constitution, you can have your booze cruise as long as there's a Europe.

darkpagandeath

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

They don't need a legal requirement to do something like that, though. They can just sell them cheaper than their competitor. Done.



"Below cost selling" seems to only be a problem in Ireland, for some reason...

Aye, Government here seem obsessed with propping up failing business that should have gone years ago. Once the Failing ones go bang you might actually create innovation and a new breed of entrepreneur. Instead of keeping people with very little business acumen ticking over.

rubadub

K4t wrote: »

Some ideas to revive the dying pub trade:

-Allow only pubs to sell imported cigarettes at discount rates. And impose a ban on cigarette companies from cutting off or reducing their supply to pubs, but allow them to reduce their cost only in pubs.

-Lower the cut-off time for buying alcohol in places other than pubs from 10pm to 6pm. Would catch a lot of the young worker pre-drinkers and students who leave it too late to buy in and are always going to hit the town rather than stay at home in their grotty flats and student accommodation.

-Legalise cannabis and allow it to be sold only in licensed pubs (it's a biggie I know!) A similar idea to the cannabis coffee shops in Amsterdam except without the simultaneous ban on selling alcohol. Tobacco/Cannabis/Alcohol all legally sold in the one establishment, choose your fancy, be responsible for your own decisions.

The restaurant trade is also having trouble, any suggestions for them?

-Perhaps close supermarkets and grocery shops at 6pm to force people out of their grotty homes and into restaurants? The ones who left it too late to think of buying food in advance, or who were still working at the time.
-Allow only restaurants to sell imported fruit, and allow VAT free or reduced prices on other items?
-Allow only the restaurants to sell cannabis? Many would view the pub as a social place just like a restaurant, so it is really no stranger than your suggestion.

I always thought the pub trade was synonymous with Irish society and entrepreneurship in many ways; though maybe that's not a good thing, and perhaps we should we let it die like any private enterprise which cannot remain profitable

Entrepreneurs set up similar outlets for recreational drugs recently enough, the government then banned many of their products and appeared to have little sympathy for their plight. They sold recreational drugs which are considered far safer and benign than the drugs the publicans are peddling. Which drug dealer has caused the most damage to Irish society? John Gilligan? not a hope, nothing compared to the damage done by the likes of Aurthur Guinness and John Jameson.

The Th!ng wrote: »

Below Cost Selling is a bull**** term used by wanker politicos.

I think its the publicans who really started it, and put it in their mouths.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

"Below cost selling" seems to only be a problem in Ireland, for some reason...

It has been used in the UK, thankfully the government there investigated the idea of banning below cost selling on alcohol. They discovered that only 5 or so obscure products were being sold below cost. None of the mainstream beer being sold cheaply was. This was great since it shut their lying cunt publicans up, I wish we would do the same.

The publicans here still take the public for fools going on about it. Many publicans just pay the ridiculous prices the breweries ask, only themselves to blame. Perhaps some of the more stupid publicans really do believe the local centra selling 20 heineken bottles for €15 are paying the same stupidly high price as them. I have NEVER seen anybody by a full shop getting this boxes, so it totally goes against the idea of enticing people into shops with below cost items which you hopefully make up for on the rest of the shop.

There were posters before claiming to be publicans and paying €35+ for 24 heineken, not sure if that even included VAT.

dr.fuzzenstein

rubadub wrote: »

The restaurant trade is also having trouble, any suggestions for them?

-Perhaps close supermarkets and grocery shops at 6pm to force people out of their grotty homes and into restaurants? The ones who left it too late to think of buying food in advance, or who were still working at the time.
-Allow only restaurants to sell imported fruit, and allow VAT free or reduced prices on other items?
-Allow only the restaurants to sell cannabis? Many would view the pub as a social place just like a restaurant, so it is really no stranger than your suggestion.

Entrepreneurs set up similar outlets for recreational drugs recently enough, the government then banned many of their products and appeared to have little sympathy for their plight. They sold recreational drugs which are considered far safer and benign than the drugs the publicans are peddling. Which drug dealer has caused the most damage to Irish society? John Gilligan? not a hope, nothing compared to the damage done by the likes of Aurthur Guinness and John Jameson.



I think its the publicans who really started it, and put it in their mouths.

It has been used in the UK, thankfully the government there investigated the idea of banning below cost selling on alcohol. They discovered that only 5 or so obscure products were being sold below cost. None of the mainstream beer being sold cheaply was. This was great since it shut their lying cunt publicans up, I wish we would do the same.

The publicans here still take the public for fools going on about it. Many publicans just pay the ridiculous prices the breweries ask, only themselves to blame. Perhaps some of the more stupid publicans really do believe the local centra selling 20 heineken bottles for €15 are paying the same stupidly high price as them. I have NEVER seen anybody by a full shop getting this boxes, so it totally goes against the idea of enticing people into shops with below cost items which you hopefully make up for on the rest of the shop.

There were posters before claiming to be publicans and paying €35+ for 24 heineken, not sure if that even included VAT.

I wouldn't be surprised. The pub trade operates in the 1960's, to be kind to them and the licensing laws are something from the middle ages.
The problem is the all to cozy relationship between the politicians and the drinks industry, they want to keep it all that way and protect it any way they can, while on the other hand pander to more modern concerns of smoking and drink driving. So we have a near Victorian alcohol trade trying to fit into the modern world and it's not working. Of course the Irish way of "evening out" competition is to ruin everyone else. it reminds me of out of town shopping centers being lined up for special taxation. The town centers are dying due to lack of parking, sky-high rents and rates. the solution? Make sure to ruin the last businesses still thriving.
We don't do encouragement or support in this country, we do tax hammer and ban hammer. If something doesn't fit in with the agenda, ruin it.
Pubs are dying, what to do? Ruin off licenses as well! Wahey, 'tis a grate plan, lads!
I'm hoping the government will tax fags and booze off the market, my booze cruise venture will set to become a guaranteed success. It will actually say "Sponsored by the government" on the website.

Jimmy Garlic

raypallas wrote: »

Local pubs are dying means less money being spent locally

Pubs aren't dying of natural causes you know, they ensured their own demise by swindling their customers.

senordingdong

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

II'm hoping the government will tax fags and booze off the market, my booze cruise venture will set to become a guaranteed success. It will actually say "Sponsored by the government" on the website.

Inevitably, they will establish customs checks at the ports.

dr.fuzzenstein

senordingdong wrote: »

Inevitably, they will establish customs checks at the ports.

They can and do that anyway. The allowances are set out here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_to_ireland/customs_regulations_for_travellers.html

For example, 800 cigarettes or 1 kg of smoking tobacco, 10 liters of spirits and 110 liters of beer. All perfectly legal and protected by the EU.
And as much cheese as you can carry.

Akrasia

I've never understood why pubs go along with these 'pub sized' bottles of soft drinks and mixers. They can buy a crate of 24 pub sized bottles of coke (200ml) for about a tenner, that's about 40 cents a bottle. They could buy 24 cans of coke for 8 euros (333ml) which is only 33 cents a can. Cheaper for the pub and better for the consumer.

They can buy 500ml bottles for about 14 euros a crate (which is 58c a bottle)

All the prices exclude VAT but they also exclude bulk buying discounts and promotions that often include free crates with big orders.

A publican who sold 500ml bottles of 7up or coke for €2.50 could still make a very healthy profit and save his customers the cost of having to pay stupid prices for those tiny glass bottles.

A pint of coke in a pub costs more than a pint of beer. That is just one of the reasons why people distrust publicans and it's one of the reasons why people who don't drink hate going out to be ripped off. Hint puiblicans, if some people aren't drinking, they can (literlally) drive more customers into your bar

If some people think coke tastes nicer from a glass bottle, then give them the option to get ripped off, but give everyone else the choice

Macy0161

The thought came to me over my Friday night bottles of ale at home (none of which are available in my Guinness/ Bud/ Bulmers/ Heino only locals), that a minimum price and a price increase off licence won't change my drinking habits at all. All it will do will reduce my budget for actually going down the pub. Which despite the lack of choice in beers, I do try to do fairly regularly at present. That's before I even consider being pissed at the publicans for forcing the price increase.

senordingdong

Macy0161 wrote: »

The thought came to me over my Friday night bottles of ale at home (none of which are available in my Guinness/ Bud/ Bulmers/ Heino only locals), that a minimum price and a price increase off licence won't change my drinking habits at all. All it will do will reduce my budget for actually going down the pub. Which despite the lack of choice in beers, I do try to do fairly regularly at present. That's before I even consider being pissed at the publicans for forcing the price increase.

Indeed, much the same for alot of is. So the only real benefactor is the exchequer.

dr.fuzzenstein

Macy0161 wrote: »

The thought came to me over my Friday night bottles of ale at home (none of which are available in my Guinness/ Bud/ Bulmers/ Heino only locals), that a minimum price and a price increase off licence won't change my drinking habits at all. All it will do will reduce my budget for actually going down the pub. Which despite the lack of choice in beers, I do try to do fairly regularly at present. That's before I even consider being pissed at the publicans for forcing the price increase.

That is a huge problem right there. Guinness is OK but will wreak havoc with anyone's gut and the rest is undrinkable filth, pure and simple. I think Heineken would have to be labelled chemical waste in Germany. Bud is horse piss.
No one goes to the pub because they like beer (or, God help us, food), it's just whatever you can pour down your gullet while holding your nose. The aim is to get pissed.
In most countries you will go to a few locals, because the food and drink is distinctly different in each of them. I lived in a village with 3000 people in Bavaria. it had 3 breweries. People would go to different pubs and compare the beer. In Ireland 99% of pubs serve up the same industrial "beer" as all the others. Food is non existent and if there is food, it is the exact same menu everywhere.
Smoking and drink driving regulations have changed the nature of the pub trade, but the pub trade doesn't want to know, to them nothing has changed in 30 years. Evolve or die!

kylith

senordingdong wrote: »

It already has, as more and more people have been taken out of the free bin scheme.
Something similar happened in the UK and it forced them to rethink the policy.

And to combat the illegal dumping they're removing bins from the streets, meaning that not only is the place is getting filthier than usual but people are now just fly-tipping in any quiet corner.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That is a huge problem right there. Guinness is OK but will wreak havoc with anyone's gut and the rest is undrinkable filth, pure and simple.

Guinness is fierce easy on the system, certainly doesn't reek havoc on mine anyway and lord knows I drink enough of it to know.

I find craft beers or beer from brewery pubs far far harder on the system, and its not all down to alcohol content. Its not very often I drink craft beers but my body is always far worse the next day. No way you could drink 10 or 12 pints of them either like you can with Guinness or smithwicks.

Cuddlesworth

Willa Juicy Sorrow wrote: »

Guinness is fierce easy on the system, certainly doesn't reek havoc on mine anyway and lord knows I drink enough of it to know.

I find craft beers or beer from brewery pubs far far harder on the system, and its not all down to alcohol content. Its not very often I drink craft beers but my body is always far worse the next day. No way you could drink 10 or 12 pints of them either like you can with Guinness or smithwicks.

That just means the bacteria in your intestines are very efficient at breaking down Guinness. And that you also drink far far too much of it.

dr.fuzzenstein

Willa Juicy Sorrow wrote: »

Guinness is fierce easy on the system, certainly doesn't reek havoc on mine anyway and lord knows I drink enough of it to know.

I find craft beers or beer from brewery pubs far far harder on the system, and its not all down to alcohol content. Its not very often I drink craft beers but my body is always far worse the next day. No way you could drink 10 or 12 pints of them either like you can with Guinness or smithwicks.

I have to be at least 5 miles away from people the next day. :eek:
Proper beer always agrees with me. No chemicals like the muck served in Irish pubs.

ScumLord

Willa Juicy Sorrow wrote: »

Guinness is fierce easy on the system, certainly doesn't reek havoc on mine anyway and lord knows I drink enough of it to know.

I find craft beers or beer from brewery pubs far far harder on the system, and its not all down to alcohol content. Its not very often I drink craft beers but my body is always far worse the next day. No way you could drink 10 or 12 pints of them either like you can with Guinness or smithwicks.

I find guinness one of the worst the following morning. The worst thing about it is the farts, they'll literally wake you in the middle of your hangover and force you to leave your bed they smell so bad.

Craft beers don't have anywhere near the hangovers that I get off other beers these days.

I can't really drink in pubs anymore, I get horrible hangovers any time I drink beer that comes from a tap these days. I had 6 or 7 kronenberg's recently in a pub and was in a hoop the next day, barely able to move, spewing, splitting headache. That's a beer I'd drink at home, without problems.

I'd love to see more ale in the pubs because I don't think my belly will take Guinness or larger from a tap anymore, I think whatever gas they put through it is pure poison.

hatrickpatrick

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That is a huge problem right there. Guinness is OK but will wreak havoc with anyone's gut

I thought I was the only one who got the Guinness turds after a Guinness-based session? Bit relieved, I gotta say.

Regardless, every time I see this thread pop up I assume there's been some movement (other than bowel). Has the ECJ ruled yet, and if not, isn't this whole debate pretty irrelevant?

kylith

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I thought I was the only one who got the Guinness turds after a Guinness-based session? Bit relieved, I gotta say.

The Guinness rope is a well-known phenomenon.

syklops

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I thought I was the only one who got the Guinness turds after a Guinness-based session? Bit relieved, I gotta say.

Regardless, every time I see this thread pop up I assume there's been some movement (other than bowel). Has the ECJ ruled yet, and if not, isn't this whole debate pretty irrelevant?

Why is it irrelevant? If we dont discuss it here on boards and make people aware of it, it will silently get signed into law and it will be too late to protest, or write to TDs, it will be law.

OldNotWIse

In anticipation of being f.ucked over by the Irish government again, anybody know anything about stocking up on wine in France? Restrictions, limits etc.

darkpagandeath

OldNotWIse wrote: »

In anticipation of being f.ucked over by the Irish government again, anybody know anything about stocking up on wine in France? Restrictions, limits etc.

Why bother, I'm sure the goberment will hike up tax on the boat tickets or plane tickets just in case you try to avail of this. :pac:

Dyr

K4t wrote: »

Err, yes they do, they have exactly that right..


Some ideas to revive the dying pub trade:

-Allow only pubs to sell imported cigarettes at discount rates. And impose a ban on cigarette companies from cutting off or reducing their supply to pubs, but allow them to reduce their cost only in pubs.

-Lower the cut-off time for buying alcohol in places other than pubs from 10pm to 6pm. Would catch a lot of the young worker pre-drinkers and students who leave it too late to buy in and are always going to hit the town rather than stay at home in their grotty flats and student accommodation.

-Legalise cannabis and allow it to be sold only in licensed pubs (it's a biggie I know!) A similar idea to the cannabis coffee shops in Amsterdam except without the simultaneous ban on selling alcohol. Tobacco/Cannabis/Alcohol all legally sold in the one establishment, choose your fancy, be responsible for your own decisions.

Or just cut the legs out from under the vitners cartel, although given that they have a lot of FG TDs in their ranks or pockets that might prove difficult.

OldNotWIse

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why bother, I'm sure the goberment will hike up tax on the boat tickets or plane tickets just in case you try to avail of this. :pac:

True. TBH even if I just break even I think I'd go ahead with it on principle.

I had a look online, looks like you can bring in up to 90 L (120 bottles) once it is for your own consumption and you've paid the tax on it in the member state you buy in

MadYaker

I think this will only affect the really cheap stuff. Like if your someone who drinks a lot of cheap strong beer/cider or Aldi and Tesco own brand spirits. You can get 4 cans of druids cider for €5 and its 6%, stuff like that will nearly double in price. I don't drink it but a lot of my friends do. It'll mostly affect student drinkers like me, and homeless alcoholics. These aren't people who are going to turn to the pubs just because their drinks of choice get more expensive, off licenses will still be cheaper.

To be honest I'm hoping the EU competition authorities will strike this down, and if they don't who knows, maybe a black market for cheap booze imported illegally from eastern europe will start up. Id buy it.

OldNotWIse

MadYaker wrote: »

I think this will only affect the really cheap stuff. Like if your someone who drinks a lot of cheap strong beer/cider or Aldi and Tesco own brand spirits. You can get 4 cans of druids cider for €5 and its 6%, stuff like that will nearly double in price. I don't drink it but a lot of my friends do. It'll mostly affect student drinkers like me, and homeless alcoholics. These aren't people who are going to turn to the pubs just because their drinks of choice get more expensive, off licenses will still be cheaper.

To be honest I'm hoping the EU competition authorities will strike this down, and if they don't who knows, maybe a black market for cheap booze imported illegally from eastern europe will start up. Id buy it.

I'd be sceptical about that. I'm fairly sure this will be used as an excuse to hike the cost of all drink.

MadYaker

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I'd be sceptical about that. I'm fairly sure this will be used as an excuse to hike the cost of all drink.

I don't think so. I'm not arsed searching but I read, I think on the Irish Times website, that at the moment the minimum prices being proposed worked out at something like €18 for a bottle of spirits, €8 or €9 for a bottle of wine and I think around €1.80 or €1.90 for a can of beer? I could be a bit off the mark there.

They can't use it to increase the price of all drink since what they're doing is introducing a minimum price per gram of alcohol. So stuff that's already above the minimum price won't change. It will disproportionately affect the cheap stuff, which makes sense since the aim is to target binge drinkers, most of whom drink the cheap stuff.

Sofiztikated

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I'd be sceptical about that. I'm fairly sure this will be used as an excuse to hike the cost of all drink.

If anyone thinks otherwise, well, I've a nice bottle of vintage unicorn piss for sale, at original prices.