The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

Anita Blow

ardinn wrote: »

Most of it to be quite honest.

Such as selling products below cost?

It is a capitalist country. A private business is perfectly within it's right to charge what it wants for it's own products. If your industry fails to react and adapt to it without asking the government to step in and punish another industry for making profits and benefiting the consumer, then it's your loss (as an industry)

starbelgrade

ardinn wrote: »

When someone tries to tell me about business plans and Business models then states that I should sell all my product below cost then .... what do you expect?

Oh for fuck sake... I never once said that you should base you business model on below cost selling. I never even implied it.

The only thing moronic about this whole debate is your inability to listen without getting your back up & attacking other posters. You do know that some companies actually pay boards to host forums for them to recieve customer feedback?

Go and have a look at them...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=241

I doubt you will see any posts responded to by the like of Quotedevil with, "Thank you for your customer feedback, but I disagree with you because you are a twat".

Why? Because they value customer feedback & even if they think the customer is an idiot, the last thing they are going to do is tell that to their face.

Why? Because that's good business sense, something which you seem to have a very weak grasp of. You're getting free customer feedback & instead of taking it onboard, you're taking the customer on board. WTF?

roboshatner

Feck the pub thread drink before you head out to the pub.

There are still idiots out there that call you a cheap ass cause you drink at home before you head to the put but to be honest they charge so much..

If you go to prague budapest pints are 50 cent.

After 11pm in most pubs in dublin they put up the prices well over the market price.

On Arthur's day I paid 5.80 for a pint of Guinness I didn't hear the barman say how much it was and handed over the money I was shocked i paid that on arthur's day and all.

I can not see prices in beer in pubs ever going down in ireland.

I go out in carlow once ever 2 months and I tell you drink is fair cheaper down there then dublin,

ardinn

HellFireClub wrote: »

To my mind, the definition of moronic is to keep doing things in the same manner but somehow expecting the outcome to change... How do you expect people to be able to afford to drink in a pub when the price you charge just keeps going up and up and up, in an economy where people are having their disposable income slashed??? It's not up to me or anyone else on here to solve this particular issue for you, it's up to you as an entrepreneur to either solve it for yourself and keep your business going or else go down the same road that many other people are being forced to go down and shut up shop. I should add that there is nothing special about your business above the others that have to close, that warrants any kind of state intervention in relation to the pricing of products in the market.

Should the government also come out and fix the price of the potatoes in the market in order to keep the Roma Take Away's and the chippers in business???

I have stated in previous posts about the effect the groceries order is having on other businesses - I have not limited the discussion to pubs alone i have just prioritised it as thats what the thread relates to

The prices in pubs (most) has not changed in well over a year. (in my 2 anyway) and others around the locales, so to say the price keeps rising in untrue to an extent but not in all cases. But maybe the prices in those pubs wouldnt have gone up if the freeze was allowed. In deflationary times rates and overheads kept rising - any business owner will tell you this. and diageo has been lobbied for years to stop increases in prices.

Things need to change in pubs - but with the current price of drink in supermarkets, how or what would you do to entice customers back into your premises if you owned a pub? Seriously, pretend you own a pub - i'll try and take on board all suggestions from anyone and argue if needed. But just to get a feel for what people would do.

HellFireClub

Anita Blow wrote: »

It is a capitalist country. A private business is perfectly within it's right to charge what it wants for it's own products. If your industry fails to react and adapt to it without asking the government to step in and punish another industry for making profits and benefiting the consumer, then it's your loss (as an industry)

Couldn't agree more, I think it's disgusting and offensive that any industry these days would dare ask the government to step in and artifically interfere with the market, for the purposes of keeping the price of anything high.

Another insulting notion circulated by these gimps in the drinks industry representative groups very recently is that people are being unresponsible drinking at home where they are drinking "unsupervised".

How dare any person tell me as an adult that I need to be supervised in a pub if I drink as opposed to deciding to drink at home. Meanwhile if I have 100 Euro in my arse pocket I can go down to the pub and there isn't a barman I know who wouldn't continue to serve me once I had money for drink.

There is a greater risk to my health drinking in a pub with disgusting toliets with floors full of p*ss where I could slip, or getting knocked on the way home by some drunken driver that they have served, than me having a few cans at home or a glass or two of wine.

Some of the rubbish that these folks are coming out with, you'd have to ask how seriously deluded they are, telling grown adults that they need to be supervised when drinking, when we all know that publicans will keep serving you as long as you have money and in any event, the vast vast majority of people are well able to supervise themselves and their alcohol consumption regardless of where they are enjoying a drink.

Then to suggest that the government set in and artifically adjust the market, seriously are these people on Class A drugs or something???

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

Oh for fuck sake... I never once said that you should base you business model on below cost selling. I never even implied it.

The only thing moronic about this whole debate is your inability to listen without getting your back up & attacking other posters. You do know that some companies actually pay boards to host forums for them to recieve customer feedback?

Go and have a look at them...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=241

I doubt you will see any posts responded to by the like of Quotedevil with, "Thank you for your customer feedback, but I disagree with you because you are a twat".

Why? Because they value customer feedback & even if they think the customer is an idiot, the last thing they are going to do is tell that to their face.

Why? Because that's good business sense, something which you seem to have a very weak grasp of. You're getting free customer feedback & instead of taking it onboard, you're taking the customer on board. WTF?

"""""""""""""Originally Posted by starbelgrade
Below cost selling is of great benefit to consumers as it helps creates competition in the marketplace & reduces the incentive for sellers to participate in price fixing.

Maybe the pubs should try it & see.""""""""""""""



Yes you did - Then you deleted it, luckily enough I have it quoted further on in the thread. Dont try and cover your statements like that - it beneath you.

snaps

roboshatner wrote: »

On Arthur's day I paid 5.80 for a pint of Guinness I didn't hear the barman and handed over the money I was shocked i paid that on arthur's day and all.

I can not see prices in beer in pubs ever going down in ireland.

And there is me complaining about paying 3.30 for a pint of Guinness here in my local!!

4zn76tysfajdxp

ardinn wrote: »

Yes you did - Then you deleted it, luckily enough I have it quoted further on in the thread. Dont try and cover your statements like that - it beneath you.

Did he now?

macquarie

Maybe if they used the money spent on those f**king ads "Dublin pubs are so great bla bla bla" and actually listened to the customers regarding lowering drink prices they mightn't be in so much trouble. C**ts the lot of them.

starbelgrade

ardinn wrote: »

"""""""""""""Originally Posted by starbelgrade
Below cost selling is of great benefit to consumers as it helps creates competition in the marketplace & reduces the incentive for sellers to participate in price fixing.

Maybe the pubs should try it & see.""""""""""""""



Yes you did - Then you deleted it, luckily enough I have it quoted further on in the thread. Dont try and cover your statements like that - it beneath you.

What the hell are you talking about?

I haven't deleted any posts in this thread.

I think you need to step away from your computer, take a hour or two to chill out, have a cup of tea, gather your thoughts, then come back to the debate.

Coz at the moment, you're just getting worked up, losing the rag & not helping your cause in any way whatsoever.

HellFireClub

ardinn wrote: »

I have stated in previous posts about the effect the groceries order is having on other businesses - I have not limited the discussion to pubs alone i have just prioritised it as thats what the thread relates to

The prices in pubs (most) has not changed in well over a year. (in my 2 anyway) and others around the locales, so to say the price keeps rising in untrue to an extent but not in all cases. But maybe the prices in those pubs wouldnt have gone up if the freeze was allowed. In deflationary times rates and overheads kept rising - any business owner will tell you this. and diageo has been lobbied for years to stop increases in prices.

Things need to change in pubs - but with the current price of drink in supermarkets, how or what would you do to entice customers back into your premises if you owned a pub? Seriously, pretend you own a pub - i'll try and take on board all suggestions from anyone and argue if needed. But just to get a feel for what people would do.

First of all I'm a business owner myself. If I have a supplier who is not giving me the price I need to sell and be competitive, I change supplier!

The EU is very big OPEN market now and there is nothing that I can see that would stop you as an owner of two outlets, maybe hooking up with a few of your fellow publicans, to take Diageo out of your supply chain and use our membership of the EU to go abroad and try to source a quality brewer who can supply you the same volume, of comparable quality for a much better price. This will allow you to drop your retail prices and still maintain a respectable margin.

Some of what you could do isn't even price related, what do you do to manage your customer retention???

How about giving your regulars a Crimbo pint on the house, something that is NEVER done in Dublin now, I got a Crimbo pint off my local and he has a customer in me for carvery and the odd drink for the next year based on that gesture alone!

Another big one for publicans is putting one or two idiots on the door with an attitude problem who have no notion as to how to welcome people into a business, instead, looking them up and down at the door and interrogating them, trying to make a potential customer almost feel grateful for getting into a pub, these are sober people who just want to go out for a pint who might not be big drinkers. This alone has been the cause of me avoiding one pub in my locality for years and it's well known that the folks on the door have been the ruination of the pub.

Same for barstaff, grunting at you and having a barely hidden dislike of their job, how do you manage staff performance and staff improvement???

2 stroke

Next they will want a minimum price on minerals and bottled water. I realy hate paying for minerals in a bar. At home we can both have a drink for what is spent on minerals for the driver at the bar.

Biggins

ardinn wrote: »

I have stated in previous posts about the effect the groceries order is having on other businesses - I have not limited the discussion to pubs alone i have just prioritised it as thats what the thread relates to

The prices in pubs (most) has not changed in well over a year. (in my 2 anyway) and others around the locales, so to say the price keeps rising in untrue to an extent but not in all cases. But maybe the prices in those pubs wouldnt have gone up if the freeze was allowed. In deflationary times rates and overheads kept rising - any business owner will tell you this. and diageo has been lobbied for years to stop increases in prices.

Things need to change in pubs - but with the current price of drink in supermarkets, how or what would you do to entice customers back into your premises if you owned a pub? Seriously, pretend you own a pub - i'll try and take on board all suggestions from anyone and argue if needed. But just to get a feel for what people would do.

If your a bar owner, I acknowledge that your up against it big time but as much as you as Diageo is lobbying, there are also not doing themselves any favours either.

A very good friend of mine leased out a bar in Slane Co Meath. Now because he was just leasing the property at most Diageo would allow him in credit, was 30 days.
So if he had delivered 20/30 barrels (each one holding about 70/80 pints approx) the he was expected within 30 days to up and cover the cost of the entire lot - even if he hadn't actually managed to pass on their product via incoming customers.
Now he was told that if he owned the bar, it would have been a whole different ball game (and I can understand where and why Diageo is coming from in this respect), he would have greater longer terms with the company.

My point in that Diageo and its like elsewhere, need also to play ball more so, to come up with an alternative method of collecting revenue, perhaps looking again at their conditions of sale.
They are certainly shooting themselves in the foot in a number of respects.

...As the friend who owned the bar in Slane, he gave up and walked away from the bar game. It wasn't that he wasn't selling the drink, he just couldn't handle the short term credit period in which to shift it supposedly all before Diageo jumped on his back monthly.
He walked away from the bar game a very disillusioned man and it wasn't the lack of customers that put him out of business. He said it wasn't worth the mental stress or monthly hassle alone from Diageo.

I suspect he was/is not on his own.

ardinn

Lilian Mushy Racketeering wrote: »

Did he now?

I couldnt find it - thanks.

rubadub

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Pubs are just like any other business if they can't stay afloat they should fail, simple as that really.

Indeed, cobblers are a dying trade, new shoes are relatively cheap these days.

goose2005 wrote: »

Tesco should also charge a minimum price for food - after all, how are restaurants supposed to compete?

+1, a min charge on shoes too. Cinemas are having a rough time of it, min price on DVDs and TVs.

ardinn wrote: »

A freeze at the individual publicans price was the fairest way - AND IT DID NOT INCLUDE PUBLICANS BEING ABLE TO LOWER THEIR PRICES - If they wanted to they could - the message that was meant to be sent out was that they would not put prices up. This got lost in all the CA media hype that they sought.

All I can remember was them saying it was all voluntary (increase or decrease), so they were free to do as they wanted. Not sure why they called it a freeze if it was really intended to be a ceiling they wanted, any eejit could have pre-empted the obvious question of lowering. Seemed to me they did a reverse turn on it when they were caught out.

ardinn wrote: »

starbelgrade wrote: »

Below cost selling is of great benefit to consumers

That is the single most moronic thing ive heard in a while

Why dont we sell cars / clothes / food / and everything else for a loss

ehh, they do sell clothes and food at a loss. I remember being told my plasma TV was probably a loss leader too. I have got a blu ray player and probably a lot of DVDs below cost.

Somebody better tell the "morons" in the Russel Court hotel too, as I reckon their €2 pints of paulaner have to be sold at a loss.

ardinn wrote: »

The price for a returnable case of heineken not including bottle/case rental is around €35. I CAN prove this to you. That is the supplier price to all publicans.

So why buy from the supplier when a supermarket is cheaper? in the beer forum people, seemingly in the trade, have said there is nothing to stop you, that you could even buy and sell lidl branded beer in a pub if you wanted to. Publicans will similarly moan about the price of 200ml glass bottles of coke when they could easily buy 2L bottles and pour them out -I have seen this done in many pubs.

Micky Dolenz

ardinn and starbelgrade, what part of not flaming didn't ye get.

Last chance, bans to follow if ye can't debate the point without snipping.

HellFireClub

Biggins wrote: »

If your a bar owner, I acknowledge that your up against it big time but as much as you as Diageo is lobbying, there are also not doing themselves any favours either.

A very good friend of mine leased out a bar in Slane Co Meath. Now because he was just leasing the property at most Diageo would allow him in credit, was 30 days.
So if he had delivered 20/30 barrels (each one holding about 70/80 pints approx) the he was expected within 30 days to up and cover the cost of the entire lot - even if he hadn't actually managed to pass on their product via incoming customers.
Now he was told that if he owned the bar, it would have been a whole different ball game (and I can understand where and why Diageo is coming from in this respect), he would have greater longer terms with the company.

My point in that Diageo and its like elsewhere, need also to play ball more so, to come up with an alternative method of collecting revenue, perhaps looking again at their conditions of sale.
They are certainly shooting themselves in the foot in a number of respects.

...As the friend who owned the bar in Slane, he gave up and walked away from the bar game. It wasn't that he wasn't selling the drink, he just couldn't handle the short term credit period in which to shift it supposedly all before Diageo jumped on his back monthly.
He walked away from the bar game a very disillusioned man and it wasn't the lack of customers that put him out of business. He said it wasn't worth the mental stress or monthly hassle alone from them.

Your mates problem was that he wasn't properly capitalised to run the business, 30 days credit is generous and Diageo for all their faults are not a bank. He needed to price in the external cost of credit into his business plan....

It's a very open EU market out there these days and any person can go abroad, buy booze in volume and enjoy much better terms, both in relation to price, discounts, quality and also credit terms.

What these guys need to do is start thinking outside the box a lot more and start going back to business fundamentals and examining their supply chain, if you do to Budapest, many pubs are also brewers, we have one venue in Dublin that as far as I know are brewing their own beer (The Porterhouse), why are more of them not giving it a shot???

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about?

I haven't deleted any posts in this thread.

I think you need to step away from your computer, take a hour or two to chill out, have a cup of tea, gather your thoughts, then come back to the debate.

Coz at the moment, you're just getting worked up, losing the rag & not helping your cause in any way whatsoever.

Sorry couldnt find it - dont worry - im fine

starbelgrade

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

ardinn and starbelgrade, what part of not flaming didn't ye get.

The "flaming" bit.

I didn't realise that your last post was directed at me. I also didn't know what flaming meant, but I just Googled it & now I do.

Fair enough, Mickey - I get it now!.... *steps back from keyboard, goes off to have cuppa*

ardinn

And im off to work - back for more flam... Debate, later

4zn76tysfajdxp

starbelgrade wrote: »

*steps back from keyboard, goes off to have cuppa*

ardinn wrote: »

And im off to work - back for more flam... Debate, later

Bet they're going to have the dirtiest ride ever together.

ScumLord

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Is it possible for pubs to be supplied beer from a source where the Irish price fixing laws don't apply?

Not really, you either sell the Diegio drink or something else, you can't offer a cheap eastern European larger alongside the Irish stables from what I've heard.

Biggins wrote: »

There was a case last year alone where a man who owns his own bar and was selling drink, was visited one day by two higher ranking members of the VFI and told without question, to raise the price of his drink.
This he refused to do. Apparently other VFI local members had been put out by him selling cheaper than they - so they complained - thus the men in suit visit.
Long story short, he refused to bow to their demands. He told the men to wait at the bar till he returned. He went to his office and grabbed a cheque he had made out. He brought it back to them, showed it to them and then proceeded to rip it up in front of them.
He told them "That was my next membership payment for the VFI" - he then told the two men in suits where to go and never darken his door again!

I've herd of that happening in my town, with the old pubs doing whatever they could to prevent a new pub from selling discounted drink.

HellFireClub

ScumLord wrote: »

Not really, you either sell the Diegio drink or something else, you can't offer a cheap eastern European larger alongside the Irish stables from what I've heard.

As far as I'm aware, that's one of those urban myths that is out there in the industry. We live in a European based open market now with unobstructed passage for citizens and goods/trade.

How can it be legal (and it is and publicans openly admit to doing this), to go up the north or even into an Irish Tesco outlet and buy a bottle of Millar for 75 cent and then retail that product for 5.20 Euro in an Irish bar, but it not be legal to go to Prague and take over a few pallets of a lager of camparable quality but at a much cheaper price again???

Another urban myth and this one could be true, is that you have to be a registered member of one of the two drinks industry representative bodies before Diageo will supply you as a pub. I can see the reason why this might be so, but it also creates an unhealthy alliance between Diageo and these representative groups...

Publican's need to get the price of a pint back well under 3 Euro before they get me going out regularly again...

ScumLord

HellFireClub wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, that's one of those urban myths that is out there in the industry. We live in a European based open market now with unobstructed passage for citizens and goods/trade.

I don't think diagio is required to sell anything to anybody so they can just not sell you anything at the request of other VFI members. I've rarely seen other beers outside the standard range in Irish pubs and when I asked why they said if they sold it they'd get cut off from the most popular drinks.

starbelgrade

ScumLord wrote: »

Not really, you either sell the Diegio drink or something else, you can't offer a cheap eastern European larger alongside the Irish stables from what I've heard.

That's probably true, but I don't see why all pubs have to rely on Diageo for their alcohol. In the town where I live, all the pubs sell Guiness, Bud, Carlsberg or Heineken.

I don't like any of those beers & I don't drink stout. I'll drink Carlsberg when I'm out, but I would flock to any pub that had a decent alternative. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

The problem I suspect with many Irish pubs is that they are too afraid to do anything different - if they get rid of Guiness, that's most of the male regulars gone. But so what? They'll soon be replaced by a younger crowd who aren't dying slowly like the business.

There's also one pub near me that lets you bring in your own booze. It's jam packed every weekend with a young crowd. They charge them a tenner at the door if they bring their own... it works out as a cheap night for the punter, the barman gets a few quid in his pocket that he wouldn't have if he didn't do that & people always end up buying more booze than they've brought in with them. It's a win win all round.

If Diageo are the main ones fucking things up for the publicans with their prices & credit terms, then the solution is simple - the publicans need to hardball them for better terms or bypass them altogether.

If they grouped together in a concerted effort to overcome this problem, they would see results and if they got the public on their side - instead of trying to break their balls by fucking up the opening hours of off licences & prices of supermarkets - they might find the job a whole lot easier.

As it stands now, you have the publican on one side, the public on the other & Diageo in the middle - supplying both sides - laughing all the way to the bank.

rubadub

ScumLord wrote: »

Not really, you either sell the Diegio drink or something else, you can't offer a cheap eastern European larger alongside the Irish stables from what I've heard.

More pubs should just give the 2 fingers to them. I don't think you can get guinness in the pub "against the grain" in wexford street, they have good stout (O'Haras) instead, and loads of other decent beers.

You can threaten to source from elsewhere if you are a big boy.

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/diageo-cuts-drink-prices-for-aviva-bars-51099.html

Diageo has agreed to slash the price of Guinness to the company which runs the bars in Dublin’s new Aviva Stadium at Lansdowne Road, after the company threatened to import supplies from Britain.

Irish publicans pay €131.66 for a 50-litre keg of Guinness. The ex-duty price of the same keg to the on-trade in Britain is half that, at £54.15 (€66). Even after payment of Irish duty, the cost of importing Guinness to Ireland would be only €99.33 per keg, a saving of 33 per cent.

It is understood that Compass Catering Group, which has massive purchasing power in Britain, told Diageo that, unless it cut its prices, Compass would import Guinness from Britain.

And before people moan about crap UK guinness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness

The Guinness brewery in Park Royal, London closed in 2005. The production of all Guinness sold in the UK and Ireland was switched to St. James's Gate Brewery, Dublin

So even though it is exported to the UK it is still cheaper to reimport it.

here is the thread on pint profits
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056119081

and the calculations of why I reckon the "morons" in diceys are selling below cost

rubadub wrote: »

And the cheapest I know is €2 pints of paulaner (5.5%) in Diceys
VAT 35cent
Duty 49cent
Tax = 84cent

So I reckon they are selling below cost.

Biggins

HellFireClub wrote: »

Your mates problem was that he wasn't properly capitalised to run the business, 30 days credit is generous and Diageo for all their faults are not a bank. He needed to price in the external cost of credit into his business plan....

It's a very open EU market out there these days and any person can go abroad, buy booze in volume and enjoy much better terms, both in relation to price, discounts, quality and also credit terms.

He started off with serious enough capital but Diageo month by month ate into that.
30 days is not generous when your dealing with a small local bar which is operating in the vicinity of a crossroads that has also three other bars that were owned and thus had better credit terms.

As for going abroad to buy booze, he was too busy working day and night at home to be able to go jaunting off abroad fishing for drink. I myself don't know any foreign drink supplier that will give drink to a foreign bar to them, on better credit terms!
It's hard enough I presume to be filing in paperwork and doing a governmental paper-chase for vat etc on home bought products with having to do similar for other overseas stock, if he had the time to even go down that route!
Long story short, Diageo was the pressuring factor that put him out of business.

HellFireClub

starbelgrade wrote: »

If Diageo are the main ones fucking things up for the publicans with their prices & credit terms, then the solution is simple - the publicans need to hardball them for better terms or bypass them altogether.

If they grouped together in a concerted effort to overcome this problem, they would see results and if they got the public on their side - instead of trying to break their balls by fucking up the opening hours of off licences & prices of supermarkets - they might find the job a whole lot easier.

As it stands now, you have the publican on one side, the public on the other & Diageo in the middle - supplying both sides - laughing all the way to the bank.

That's exactly the point I'm making. If a few of them gathered together and said, "right lads, f*ck this for a game of codding, we need to combine our purchasing power, step into a completely different market here to get our supplies from now on, which our national market are telling us that we now HAVE to do to be able to offer value again so they will come back as customers, and next time the Diageo rep calls into each of our outlets, we'll tell him we're all sorted for this month"...

This happens in many other industries in Ireland and the level of competition is nothing short of fierce. In the real Irish economy of today, I've seen lads I know in business losing an order for being 5 Euro out/beaten on the price!

I find it hard to believe how every pub in Ireland seems to have only one very belligerant supplier. How come nobody has taken the initiative to take a weekend away in another EU country and see if they can import a few pallets of their own sauce and run a 2.50 Euro a pint promo for a week???

HellFireClub

Biggins wrote: »

He started off with serious enough capital but Diageo month by month ate into that.
30 days is not generous when your dealing with a small local bar which is operating in the vicinity of a cross roads that has also three other bars that were owned and thus had better credit terms.

As for going abroad to buy booze, he was too busy working day and night at home to be able to go jaunting off abroad fishing for drink I myself don't know any foreign drink supplier that will give drink to a foreign bar on better credit terms!
It's hard enough I presume to be filing in paperwork and doing a governmental paper-chase for vat etc on home bought products with having to so similar for other overseas stock, if he had the time to even go down that route!
Long story short, Diageo was the pressuring factor that put him out of business.

Ah I hear a lot of what you're saying the Biggins, I run my own business in a completely different industry and the competition out there is nothing short of fierce at the moment. I'm lucky though that I am not tied to a single supplier, in fairness I think if I ever found myself in that situation I'd be on the plane to Prague or I'd be thinking outside the box big time to remedy that but at the same time I accept that it easy to say that as a hurler on the ditch, it's not that easy when you are in the think of it trying to keep all the balls in the air and also sort out what are structural probs with your busines...

veryangryman

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Pubs are just like any other business if they can't stay afloat they should fail, simple as that really.

Didnt you read the news? This has happened in the past few days in Galway

These arent banks - they need to perk up or will close