The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

lee_baby_simms

Custardpi wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how much of their own brand whiskey Tesco actually sells. I can't imagine it tastes particularly good but maybe it's ok in Irish coffee.

It's has a very sharp swarfega like flavour at first and stings your throat as you swallow. Perfectly balanced with a turpentine finish.

syklops

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

It's has a very sharp swarfega like flavour at first and stings your throat as you swallow. Perfectly balanced with a turpentine finish.

I was wondering how long it would take for the whiskey snobs to arrive.

Its not actually that bad. I'd certainly prefer it to some of the cheaper brandy or gins out there. And I'd take it over Laphroaig any day of the week, a controversial opinion I know.

Custardpi

Iodine flavour whiskies like Laphroaig tend to be the Marmite of Scotch - you either love them or you hate them. I'd be just about able to tolerate Laphroaig myself but certainly wouldn't go mad for it. Much prefer the gentler charms of Lagavullin. The only Islay I ever struggled to finish a glass of was the even harsher (to my palate anyway) tasting Caol Ila which struck me as something more suited to cleaning out nuclear reactors than imbibing.

syklops

Custardpi wrote: »

Iodine flavour whiskies like Laphroaig tend to be the Marmite of Scotch - you either love them or you hate them. I'd be just about able to tolerate Laphroaig myself but certainly wouldn't go mad for it. Much prefer the gentler charms of Lagavullin. The only Islay I ever struggled to finish a glass of was the even harsher (to my palate anyway) tasting Caol Ila which struck me as something more suited to cleaning out nuclear reactors than imbibing.

Its about 6 years since I had any but Caol Ila wasn't so bad. Laphroaig I can not stand. Reminds me of TCP.

Custardpi

It's funny as they'd both be described as "peaty" whiskies, which is a flavour I'm usually quite fond of. One of my favourite Irish whiskeys is Connemara which is firmly in that category.

anncoates

syklops wrote: »

I was wondering how long it would take for the whiskey snobs to arrive.

I find it's generally about the same time that fools start whipping out the designation of snob for anybody that just likes the taste of something.

hatrickpatrick

Still no sign of any movement on the Scottish case.

Does anyone know can any citizen take a case to the ECJ or does it have to be referred? As in, if the government tries to press ahead with this before the Scotland ruling or if the court bans minimum pricing, do we have to rely on drinks companies to tackle it in court or could citizens lodge a case?

syklops

anncoates wrote: »

I find it's generally about the same time that fools start whipping out the designation of snob for anybody that just likes the taste of something.

Was that directed at me? Because I was the one who said it doesnt taste so bad, replying to a poster I bet has never tasted it but still compared it to turpentine and Swarfega, I imagine, simply because it is cheap.

PARlance

syklops wrote: »

I know many people disagree with me but I honestly believe that when the cheapest alcohol, we'll say whiskey, goes up by 3 or 4 euros, more expensive brands will go up as well.

Completely agree, I was just saying that the 2% reduction in the UK will probably be offset by future currency changes pretty quickly.

Jameson et al will have to protect their brands by keeping a similar margin as exists today between them and the lowest priced offering.

rubadub

syklops wrote: »

If the minimum price for whiskey goes up to 18.99, Tesco Everyday whiskey will go up to 18.99....

Tesco value whiskey is sold all over europe. They're not going to stop making it just because Ireland has gone insane.

I never suggested they would stop making it. The minimum spirit price I saw mentioned in the media was €30, cans €2.50, the quote I quoted listed €30 too.

If its only a slight increase then of course will not see the value brands disappear as they could still be the cheapest, thought that went without saying.

If you pay RRP then that's up to you, I think its very foolish, last time I got jameson it was €20 at christmas. The likes of Jameson, heineken & baileys are often on offer, if you pay RRP for takeaway pizza you also want your head checked, or simply do not care.

If the prices do go up a lot they may still have a few of these cheaper brands for the minority of people who would still prefer them, I think there would be VERY little stock of them, just like you see very little stock of stuff like smirnoff black. I would take tesco value vodka over smirnoff red or the other tesco vodkas, since its molasses based, but think I would be in a minority -most have their minds made up before even trying things.

If toilet rolls went to €5 minimum per roll I would also expect there would be a huge drop in demand for tesco value toilet paper.

In another thread I said it could lead to odd things happening, like in remote areas with only 1 offie they might only start selling the "cheap wholesale" beers, to maximise profits. Or people doing it on certain days, like if they are an offie near the RDS knowing fine well they will sell lots on big concert days.

PARlance

rubadub wrote: »

If toilet rolls went to €5 minimum per roll I would also expect there would be a huge drop in demand for tesco value toilet paper.

Only in the sense that people would use less... Wipe more efficiently....
If it's still €3.50 cheaper than the premium brand then there's not going to be a massive drop off in demand imo.
(I'm assuming premium brands will increase price in line with the base offering.)

syklops

rubadub wrote: »

I never suggested they would stop making it. The minimum spirit price I saw mentioned in the media was €30, cans €2.50, the quote I quoted listed €30 too.

If its only a slight increase then of course will not see the value brands disappear as they could still be the cheapest, thought that went without saying.

If the prices do go up a lot they may still have a few of these cheaper brands for the minority of people who would still prefer them, I think there would be VERY little stock of them, just like you see very little stock of stuff like smirnoff black. I would take tesco value vodka over smirnoff red or the other tesco vodkas, since its molasses based, but think I would be in a minority -most have their minds made up before even trying things.

If toilet rolls went to €5 minimum per roll I would also expect there would be a huge drop in demand for tesco value toilet paper.

In another thread I said it could lead to odd things happening, like in remote areas with only 1 offie they might only start selling the "cheap wholesale" beers, to maximise profits. Or people doing it on certain days, like if they are an offie near the RDS knowing fine well they will sell lots on big concert days.

It doesnt matter whether its 20 30 or 50 euro for a bottle of whiskey, you will still have the cheap stuff, the middle of the road stuff and the good stuff. if a minimum price per bottle of 30 euros is brought in, thats what Tesco will sell their cheap stuff for. Middle of the road stuff will be more expensive and the good stuff will go up even more. It doesnt matter whether you are talking whiskey or toilet paper, the same thing applies.

darkpagandeath

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Still no sign of any movement on the Scottish case.

Does anyone know can any citizen take a case to the ECJ or does it have to be referred? As in, if the government tries to press ahead with this before the Scotland ruling or if the court bans minimum pricing, do we have to rely on drinks companies to tackle it in court or could citizens lodge a case?

There is no need really, Once a judgement comes out that will be it for the government. As they will have to Prove a correlation with health and all that. And that will be impossible.

jobbridge4life

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There is no need really, Once a judgement comes out that will be it for the government. As they will have to Prove a correlation with health and all that. And that will be impossible.

Personally oppose MUP entirely but I am not convinced it will be overly difficult for the Gov to demonstrate enough of a health effect to justify this in the European courts. Especially given the deference shown to national legislatures in regard to alcohol regulation.

syklops

According to this article in the Journal

Alcohol in Ireland is already 86% more than in France, and 68% more than Germany.

With a bit of luck the European court is going to go "Er, dont you think its expensive enough already?"

jobbridge4life

syklops wrote: »

According to this article in the Journal

Alcohol in Ireland is already 86% more than in France, and 68% more than Germany.

With a bit of luck the European court is going to go "Er, dont you think its expensive enough already?"

One would hope but the counter argument, 'even given that our alcohol pricing is roughly 86% and 68% higher than our European partners but our rates of consumption and abuse are still far in excess we clearly require further action' will probably win out.

darkpagandeath

jobbridge4life wrote: »

One would hope but the counter argument, 'even given that our alcohol pricing is roughly 86% and 68% higher than our European partners but our rates of consumption and abuse are still far in excess we clearly require further action' will probably win out.

No leg to stand on for consumption, We are the middle in the table in the EZ. Abuse again I highly doubt we are higher than the average. The only people pushing the Drunken Irishman stereo type is the government, Pushing everyone that comes here into the Guinness brewery for example and planting a pint in their hand. On the health side again that will be nigh impossible as price is already insane here and further price increase could not be justified as it's had no impact. People drinking habits have changed massively over the last 20 years for example. It's just another measure to prop up the failed pub trade business model..

rubadub

PARlance wrote: »

Only in the sense that people would use less... Wipe more efficiently....
If it's still €3.50 cheaper than the premium brand then there's not going to be a massive drop off in demand imo.

There will still be plenty of competition. If andrex toilet rolls were €8.50 per roll in tesco and value rolls were €5 then I expect another shop would sell the andrex for €5 and still make massive profit, I would set up my own shop if this happened, do you honestly think it would go to €8.50 per roll? People would use less of course but that is not what I was getting at. They could easily import them outside of normal distribution routes. Just like €2 shops do all the time. A eurospar near me imports scottish market 5% heineken and sells it cheaper than the irish market 4.3% stuff.

So even if wholesalers did try and cash in there is still competition for whole sale suppliers too, even if considered "grey area imports".

syklops wrote: »

It doesnt matter whether its 20 30 or 50 euro for a bottle of whiskey, you will still have the cheap stuff, the middle of the road stuff and the good stuff. if a minimum price per bottle of 30 euros is brought in, thats what Tesco will sell their cheap stuff for. Middle of the road stuff will be more expensive and the good stuff will go up even more.

So do you think they will go up in proportion to what they are now? and do you not predict any fall off in % sales of "value brands" at all?

current tesco value vodka is €12.69, the midrange is 16.99, there is no "finest" showing online. So if they went up in proportion the value one would be €30 and the midrange would be €40.16. Or if they just slapped on the current difference it would be €34.30.

Independent offies would clean up if people did this, just import outside of normal distribution like many already do, and EU sellers who sell spirits to Ireland (all above board) would clean up, they could probably offer "free postage" and be in countries with much lower wholesale prices.

hatrickpatrick

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There is no need really, Once a judgement comes out that will be it for the government. As they will have to Prove a correlation with health and all that. And that will be impossible.

Sure, I'm merely talking about the interim. As I understand it, if the government bring this in before a ruling is passed, an ECJ injunction is required to halt it, which would require somebody to bring a case.

PARlance

rubadub wrote: »

There will still be plenty of competition. If andrex toilet rolls were €8.50 per roll in tesco and value rolls were €5 then I expect another shop would sell the andrex for €5 and still make massive profit, I would set up my own shop if this happened, do you honestly think it would go to €8.50 per roll?

It's not the shop that is going to pocket the profit. The cost will increase all along the value lines. The shop will probably work on the same %.

And yes, I think premium brands will up their prices due to a minimum pricing.
Do you honestly think that Jameson would keep their whiskey on sale for €25 if Tesco own brand was forced to be sold at a minimum price of €22.

There would be a big grey market for toilet roll in that scenario but we may have to move away from it as an example because it falls down due to the differences in legislation, taxes, power etc etc involved between the drink industry and the toilet paper industry.

Of course you will have the odd corner shop, guy on the street pulling a fast one. But I see very few corner shops selling Spanish smokes on the cheap. They are not allowed to do so and the all powerful drinks industry will make sure it's not eating into their profits once minimum pricing is brought in.

rubadub

PARlance wrote: »

It's not the shop that is going to pocket the profit.

So are you saying the manufacturer or wholesaler is going to get this profit? You do realise it is not an increase in excise or a levy of any sorts? The only extra income to the government is through VAT which is a fraction of what the offies could make.

So if an offie currently sourcing alcohol from the EU may see no increase in wholesale price at all and so clean up. And offies who do use official distribution routes will probably drop them if the manufacture/wholesaler increases the price in this particular region. There is only so much they can increase it to before people look for other routes.

PARlance wrote: »

Do you honestly think that Jameson would keep their whiskey on sale for €25 if Tesco own brand was forced to be sold at a minimum price of €22.

No I don't, I never suggested prices will all stay the exact same, or all just go upwards to the minimum.

PARlance wrote: »

There would be a big grey market for toilet roll in that scenario but we may have to move away from it as an example because it falls down due to the differences in legislation, taxes, power etc etc involved between the drink industry and the toilet paper industry.

I don't see why its so different, why does it fall down? offies and supermarkets already import it outside of normal routes and pay excise etc. I think you want to ignore it as it seems you finally do get my point and so refuse to answer my question.

The Aviva stadium threatened to import guinness back into Ireland which was brewed and exported here.

Diageo has agreed to slash the price of Guinness to the company which runs the bars in Dublin’s new Aviva Stadium at Lansdowne Road, after the company threatened to import supplies from Britain.

Irish publicans pay €131.66 for a 50-litre keg of Guinness. The ex-duty price of the same keg to the on-trade in Britain is half that, at £54.15 (€66). Even after payment of Irish duty, the cost of importing Guinness to Ireland would be only €99.33 per keg, a saving of 33 per cent.

PARlance wrote: »

Of course you will have the odd corner shop, guy on the street pulling a fast one. But I see very few corner shops selling Spanish smokes on the cheap. They are not allowed to do so

There is no legal issue with importing alcohol and selling it here, it can be done all above board. I am not familiar with laws on tobacco, if they have to pay to get irish warnings etc put on them which would simply make it unprofitable. If they buy in smirnoff from spain they will have to pay the excise duty etc, at the moment its probably cheaper to source locally. But if smirnoff start charging €30 per bottle wholesale then they might consider it.

Capt'n Midnight

rubadub wrote: »

So are you saying the manufacturer or wholesaler is going to get this profit? You do realise it is not an increase in excise or a levy of any sorts? The only extra income to the government is through VAT which is a fraction of what the offies could make.

How do you figure the government could get extra income ?

The aim is to reduce alcohol consumption so there will be less Excise Duty collected.

Any increase in VAT would be because people are spending more on drink which means they will spend less on other VAT rated stuff.

GTX 780

I wouldn't pay any more than 3.70 for a pint. I still think even at that price, I'm still throwing my money down the drain.

I am a bit stingey, I suppose.

elperello

The problem with this minimum unit pricing is that it interferes in the open market for a legal product that is safe when consumed sensibly.

Everyone will be caught having to pay extra because there are some people drinking irresponsibly.

If you want to have friends around for a barbecue and go to the off licence for a case of beer you will pay extra. You will be treated the same as somebody who takes the case of beer home and drinks it at one go on his own.

The problem of irresponsible drinking can only sensibly be addressed at the point of consumption not at the point of purchase.

Capt'n Midnight

elperello wrote: »

The problem of irresponsible drinking can only sensibly be addressed at the point of consumption not at the point of purchase.

if you want to restrict access of some people to alcohol there's always this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-31791878

Venezuela is due to begin installing about 20,000 fingerprint scanners at supermarkets across the country, as part of its introduction of rationing.

darkpagandeath

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

if you want to restrict access of some people to alcohol there's always this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-31791878

Dunno about South America, But collection of biometric data In the EZ is regulated. And would not be given to supermarkets or offies.

The_Captain

elperello wrote: »

The problem with this minimum unit pricing is that it interferes in the open market for a legal product that is safe when consumed sensibly.

Everyone will be caught having to pay extra because there are some people drinking irresponsibly.

If you want to have friends around for a barbecue and go to the off licence for a case of beer you will pay extra. You will be treated the same as somebody who takes the case of beer home and drinks it at one go on his own.

The problem of irresponsible drinking can only sensibly be addressed at the point of consumption not at the point of purchase.

Does anyone actually think this plan has been implemented to combat irresponsible drinking? They've done nothing but designed a scheme to increase the price of alcohol.
They haven't even paid lip service to rehabilitation or educational schemes to combat misuse

dr.fuzzenstein

The_Captain wrote: »

Does anyone actually think this plan has been implemented to combat irresponsible drinking? They've done nothing but designed a scheme to increase the price of alcohol.
They haven't even paid lip service to rehabilitation or educational schemes to combat misuse

That a thousand times!
In the end a bottle of spirits will cost €50 and the politicians and anti drink brigade will sit there all smug and slapping each other on the back. But what will happen?

• Everyone will drive up North or take a Ferry to buy their year's supply of booze, have a holiday and it still will be cheaper.
• Home brewing kits will start selling like wildfire
• Some people will brew hooch in bathtubs, this will inevitably kill some people, but who cares? This is about safe and responsible drinking, surely this outweighs anything.
• People will dry to drink perfume, white spirits, lighter fluid and a few will die, but it's all worth it, surely?
• Some people will spend ALL their money on booze, ahead of their family and anything and being left destitute.
• The prawn cocktail socialists will have their meetings, wearing their expensive suits, dining on canapes and slapping each other on the back how great they are
• They will dismiss all the above points

That's how that is done in Ireland!

I can write this as a BASIC program

10 increase price
20 goto 10

Faith+1

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That a thousand times!
In the end a bottle of spirits will cost €50 and the politicians and anti drink brigade will sit there all smug and slapping each other on the back. But what will happen?

• Everyone will drive up North or take a Ferry to buy their year's supply of booze, have a holiday and it still will be cheaper.
• Home brewing kits will start selling like wildfire
• Some people will brew hooch in bathtubs, this will inevitably kill some people, but who cares? This is about safe and responsible drinking, surely this outweighs anything.
  
• People will dry to drink perfume, white spirits, lighter fluid and a few will die, but it's all worth it, surely?
• Some people will spend ALL their money on booze, ahead of their family and anything and being left destitute.
• The prawn cocktail socialists will have their meetings, wearing their expensive suits, dining on canapes and slapping each other on the back how great they are
• They will dismiss all the above points

That's how that is done in Ireland!

I can write this as a BASIC program

10 increase price
20 goto 10

Here's hoping. We could do with a clear out of idiots in this Country.

dr.fuzzenstein

Faith+1 wrote: »

Here's hoping. We could do with a clear out of idiots in this Country.

Yes, I'd start with the anti drink lobby. Brainless morons the lot of them. it's like they drank the methylated spirits.