The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/disgruntled-publican-hits-out-at-villagers-on-pub-closure-thanks-for-your-support-over-18-months-not-31116901.html

Disgruntled publican hits out at villagers on pub closure: 'Thanks for your support over 18 months NOT'

Probably more to it than that and it's the Indo but that's some amount of self-entitledness there.

"People don't have the money to go out as much and there are some super other bars in the village to choose from.

Banjo String

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/disgruntled-publican-hits-out-at-villagers-on-pub-closure-thanks-for-your-support-over-18-months-not-31116901.htmlProbably more to it than that and it's the Indo but that's some amount of self-entitledness there.

Going by that self righteous, condescending ad, his pub doesn't sound like somewhere I'd fancy drinking my pints of beer.

Especially not if he was behind the bar serving it.

folamh

"Gerry Mellett said that this is the only way pubs will survive competition from supermarket sales of alcohol."

Or pubs could lower their own prices.

Dawn Rider

I've seen barmen (in staff t-shirts) buying crates of bottled beer in my local Tesco just after 11am. Wonder if they were bringing them to a party after work...?
Must be the case... Not like publicans to buy less from their suppliers and complian to the VA about falling (recorded) sales.

That said, I'd do the same.

Santa Cruz

folamh wrote: »

"Gerry Mellett said that this is the only way pubs will survive competition from supermarket sales of alcohol."

Or pubs could lower their own prices.

I dont know about lowering prices. As long as the supermarket flogs cheap booze people will drink at a house, particularly young people before hitting a club. I got 8 draught Guiness and 12 Budweiser in Tesco for 20 Euro. When I go out my average is 6 to 8 pints which is about 35 in a GAA club. Not much point going thrre unless there is something definite on. The only reason my local pub keeps going is because it is all family labour. The publicans kids are college going so its hard to see the next generation taking it up. If I drop in on darts night there will be 30 people there but other weekday it is empty.

darkpagandeath

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I dont know about lowering prices. As long as the supermarket flogs cheap booze people will drink at a house, particularly young people before hitting a club. I got 8 draught Guiness and 12 Budweiser in Tesco for 20 Euro. When I go out my average is 6 to 8 pints which is about 35 in a GAA club. Not much point going thrre unless there is something definite on. The only reason my local pub keeps going is because it is all family labour. The publicans kids are college going so its hard to see the next generation taking it up. If I drop in on darts night there will be 30 people there but other weekday it is empty.

Then there are to many pubs simple as. You cant operate in a market if another pub has the business.

suicide_circus

The public: hey government, fcuk off with your minimum pricing, you're interfering with th free market.

The government: listen we need to look after our publican buddies...oh and something something...public health.....something something

The public: hey government, can you step in and introduce reasonable rent controls so people working in Dublin can afford to live there?

The government: ah now lads, we can't be interfering with the free market

dr.fuzzenstein

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I dont know about lowering prices. As long as the supermarket flogs cheap booze people will drink at a house, particularly young people before hitting a club. I got 8 draught Guiness and 12 Budweiser in Tesco for 20 Euro. When I go out my average is 6 to 8 pints which is about 35 in a GAA club. Not much point going thrre unless there is something definite on. The only reason my local pub keeps going is because it is all family labour. The publicans kids are college going so its hard to see the next generation taking it up. If I drop in on darts night there will be 30 people there but other weekday it is empty.

Beer in German supermarkets costs ridiculously little. But German pubs aren't that cheap (OK, they're not as stupidly expensive as Irish ones), but they do a good trade.
Also, Germans don't go to the pub solely to mindlessly skull 12-15 pints plus shots. You go there to sit down, meet friends, have a bit to eat. They might drink 3-4 beer (any more, it would count as a wild night). If you can't hear yourself over the music, there's nowhere to sit and no food, people won't go. The Irish don't care. The louder, the fuller, the better. If you can't get in the door, can't get to the bar, no seats, communication only by hand signals, jacks ruined, dirty and ending in a brawl plus waking up in a pool of vomit it will be the night everyone talks about for years.
The way the Irish see the pub, it's somewhere to go to get drunk as quickly and cheaply as possible. It would explain the choice of "beer" on offer here, Heineken, Bud and Guinness. If it doesn't fulfill that function, they go to someone's house to do the same. In Germany it's somewhere nice to go to meet friends. You go for the ambiance, the food and the company. You might compare the local beer in this pub to the one in the next town, which is made in a different local brewery. Every pub will have it's own specialties when it comes to pub grub, not the same deep-frozen menu every single other bar in the country sells. It's a lot to do with the fcuked up Irish attitude to drink. Just read through this thread.
I don't very much care for going out in Ireland. I prefer going to restaurants and old man pubs, because in the former you can get something to eat to start the night and in the latter you can sit down and even hear your own thoughts. As soon as the "Cnut with Keyboard" arrives, I'm out the door.

rubadub

suicide_circus wrote: »

The public: hey government, fcuk off with your minimum pricing, you're interfering with th free market.

The EU said something along those lines when Scotland tried to introduced minimum pricing. Hopefully our crowd of gobshites will at least wait until they see the outcome of that, before embarrassing ourselves by not being "twice shy" after seeing scotlands potential fuck-up. If they do plough ahead with plans only for it to be rejected it will no doubt be a very costly messup. Probably another few million of taxpayers money needlessly lining lawyers pockets.

syklops

suicide_circus wrote: »

The public: hey government, fcuk off with your minimum pricing, you're interfering with th free market.

The government: listen we need to look after our publican buddies...oh and something something...public health.....something something

The public: hey government, can you step in and introduce reasonable rent controls so people working in Dublin can afford to live there?

The government: ah now lads, we can't be interfering with the free market

That pretty much is the reality.

Edit:

I mean what the flip is Fine gael thinking? I think they have done a decent job to date making many difficult, economic choices, some of which are paying off, and they go and do this which is going to be unpopular with every non-publican in the country. Like, do they not want to be voted in come election? Does Varadkar never want to be elected again? Nearly doubling the price of booze, for no reason other that you can, is a career killer.

Santa Cruz

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Beer in German supermarkets costs ridiculously little. But German pubs aren't that cheap (OK, they're not as stupidly expensive as Irish ones), but they do a good trade.
Also, Germans don't go to the pub solely to mindlessly skull 12-15 pints plus shots. You go there to sit down, meet friends, have a bit to eat. They might drink 3-4 beer (any more, it would count as a wild night). If you can't hear yourself over the music, there's nowhere to sit and no food, people won't go. The Irish don't care. The louder, the fuller, the better. If you can't get in the door, can't get to the bar, no seats, communication only by hand signals, jacks ruined, dirty and ending in a brawl plus waking up in a pool of vomit it will be the night everyone talks about for years.
The way the Irish see the pub, it's somewhere to go to get drunk as quickly and cheaply as possible. It would explain the choice of "beer" on offer here, Heineken, Bud and Guinness. If it doesn't fulfill that function, they go to someone's house to do the same. In Germany it's somewhere nice to go to meet friends. You go for the ambiance, the food and the company. You might compare the local beer in this pub to the one in the next town, which is made in a different local brewery. Every pub will have it's own specialties when it comes to pub grub, not the same deep-frozen menu every single other bar in the country sells. It's a lot to do with the fcuked up Irish attitude to drink. Just read through this thread.
I don't very much care for going out in Ireland. I prefer going to restaurants and old man pubs, because in the former you can get something to eat to start the night and in the latter you can sit down and even hear your own thoughts. As soon as the "Cnut with Keyboard" arrives, I'm out the door.

While you talk plenty sense there a lot of us dont want to get pissed. A game of darts, game of cards, chat with neighbours of all ages and occasional impromptu sing song. Unfortunately that is rare now. Sky sports or a juke box blaring out is the norm

Simon2015

To get people back into pubs they need to bring down the average price of a pint down to 4euro.

Tearin It Up

Pub trade dying? Didn't Enda Kenny meet a guy with two pints in his hands?

elperello

On RTE's Drivetime on Friday the CEO of the Restaurant Association of Ireland Adrian Cummins was on complaining about the Good Friday opening.

He added this nugget of information about how they see their customers -

"last night you would have seen in off licences across the country people stocking up for house parties today..... they are an unregulated environment........... where we serve drink it's in a regulated environment....... we think this is the right way for our society..."

At about 35 minutes in on this link -
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10396170%3A83%3A03%2D04%2D2015%3A

PARlance

elperello wrote: »

On RTE's Drivetime on Friday the CEO of the Restaurant Association of Ireland Adrian Cummins was on complaining about the Good Friday opening.

He added this nugget of information about how they see their customers -

"last night you would have seen in off licences across the country people stocking up for house parties today..... they are an unregulated environment........... where we serve drink it's in a regulated environment....... we think this is the right way for our society..."

At about 35 minutes in on this link -
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10396170%3A83%3A03%2D04%2D2015%3A

Better stop buying my steak in the butchers... I do like my unregulated steak of an evening though.

darkpagandeath

elperello wrote: »

On RTE's Drivetime on Friday the CEO of the Restaurant Association of Ireland Adrian Cummins was on complaining about the Good Friday opening.

He added this nugget of information about how they see their customers -

"last night you would have seen in off licences across the country people stocking up for house parties today..... they are an unregulated environment........... where we serve drink it's in a regulated environment....... we think this is the right way for our society..."

At about 35 minutes in on this link -
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10396170%3A83%3A03%2D04%2D2015%3A

So, it boils down to. Look Look they are buying semi reasonably priced alcohol and drinking it at home. Quick Quick government they should be forced to purchase our stupidly over priced alcohol for the good of their health. And if we happen to rake the money in so much the better.

elperello

http://www.news.msn.ie/irish-diners-handbag-drinkers-1683736-Sep2014/

Another pearl of wisdom from the RAI.
Apparently we should all pay more for our off licence purchases because some people bring drink into restaurants in their handbags!

El Horseboxo

If I lived in Ireland and this stupid **** became law. I'd be determined to avoid pubs. I hope that is the case if it happens. I would love if there was a serious drop off in pub goers. Even further than there currently is.

matrim

elperello wrote: »

http://www.news.msn.ie/irish-diners-handbag-drinkers-1683736-Sep2014/

Another pearl of wisdom from the RAI.
Apparently we should all pay more for our off licence purchases because some people bring drink into restaurants in their handbags!

Some resturants advertise that as a feature

kylith

El Horseboxo wrote: »

If I lived in Ireland and this stupid **** became law. I'd be determined to avoid pubs. I hope that is the case if it happens. I would love if there was a serious drop off in pub goers. Even further than there currently is.

It'd certainly be a shot in the arm for the home brewing/winemaking industry.

elperello

Here is a Press Release issued on behalf of your friendly local in Dublin. 2 euro a can and 10 euro a bottle for wine is their Easter wish for you! Dublin publicans voice strong support for minimum pricing of alcohol LVA says alcohol prices must be re-set at 2006 level Association says alcohol should be sold separately from other retail products Thursday 26th March 2015. The Licensed Vintners Association has voiced its strong support for the minimum pricing of alcohol but said the Government must ensure that the price per unit is set at an appropriately high level. In a submission to the Joint Committee on Health and Children on the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill 2015, the LVA, which represents Dublin publicans, said the new minimum price had to impact consumer behaviour and purchasing patterns. The Chief Executive of the Association Donall O’Keeffe said that if the minimum price per unit of alcohol wasn’t set at a realistic level it would completely undermine the new legislation and the Government’s policy objectives. “Price and availability are the key control mechanisms, recognised internationally, for dealing with alcohol abuse. The Government now needs to set a strong minimum retail price – including the minimum price, excise and VAT - to ensure the legislation is effective” Mr O’Keeffe said. The LVA which represents over 600 Dublin publicans in the Greater Dublin Area has been campaigning for the introduction of minimum pricing for several years. The Association believes the policy objective should be to return off-trade alcohol price levels to those pertaining at the time of the abolition of the Groceries Order in March 2006. The LVA believes strongly that if the repeal of the Order had included a minimum pricing clause for alcohol supermarkets and off licences would have been prevented from engaging in below cost selling. Adjusting for inflation of 13.6% the LVA believes the price of a 500ml can of lager should be set at €2, the price of a 700ml bottle of vodka should be set at €23.50 and a bottle of wine should be priced at €10. “These prices would eliminate deep price discounting in all categories and would have an immediate and direct impact on alcohol consumption, levels and patterns. We believe returning alcohol prices in real terms to the levels that applied prior to the abolition of the Groceries Order is a rational approach and would be a positive step. The issues caused by the wide availability of very cheap alcohol are obvious to all.” The LVA has also said that reducing the availability and in-store visibility of alcohol via structural separation with separate staff and tills is essential. “We would urge the Committee to recommend full structural separation of alcohol in the retail environment. In the final analysis structural separation will always trump a statutory code” Mr O’Keeffe concluded. Ends. For further information Contact Kieran Garry Gordon MRM 01/6650455 or 087/2368366 Note to Editor LVA Key facts LVA Focus Represents publicans in the Greater Dublin Area Member Nos 600 Employee Nos 12,000 On Trade Market Share 30% Chief Executive Donall O’Keeffe Chairman John Nealon

dr.fuzzenstein

Price and availability are key factors?
In Germany I can buy beer 24/7 at a fraction of the cost.
So that argument is bollocks for starters.

kylith

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Price and availability are key factors?
In Germany I can buy beer 24/7 at a fraction of the cost.
So that argument is bollocks for starters.

The key factor is that we as a nation have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. We need to figure out how we can address that before we'll see any change in how our drinking habits.

Of course if we managed to change our habits so that it wasn't the done thing to get plastered at the weekend the publicans would then be up in arms about the damage to their profits from people having one or two pints and going home rather than drinking 8 or 9 pints in order to get as drunk as possible as quickly as possible.

listermint

kylith wrote: »

The key factor is that we as a nation have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. We need to figure out how we can address that before we'll see any change in how our drinking habits.

Of course if we managed to change our habits so that it wasn't the done thing to get plastered at the weekend the publicans would then be up in arms about the damage to their profits from people having one or two pints and going home rather than drinking 8 or 9 pints in order to get as drunk as possible as quickly as possible.

I love when people say we as a nation when the European stats dont really tally .


Its jargon.

kylith

listermint wrote: »

I love when people say we as a nation when the European stats dont really tally .


Its jargon.

Care to explain?

I used that phrase because, as far as I can see, we do have a different drinking culture to most of the rest of Europe (well us and the UK). We go out in our late teens and drink to get drunk, I think that's probably the case everywhere, but then we continue in well into adulthood, sometimes never outgrowing it, seeing extreme drunkenness as a badge of honour. The talk after a night out is focussed on how plastered you were the night before. Other places I've been just don't seem to be the same - a standard glass of wine in Italy contains about a quarter of what it would if poured in Ireland. In Germany the quality of the beer is more important than how much of it you can drink.

Shenshen

listermint wrote: »

I love when people say we as a nation when the European stats dont really tally .


Its jargon.

Never trust stats you didn't forge yourself.

I assume the stats you reference will show an average yearly consumption? Possibly deducted from that an average monthly consumption?
That's only half the story, though.

People in Germany (as an example, as I happen to know the place rather well) would have a high yearly average. This is down to a culture where people will often go out and have a pint with friends after work, or will have a pint with their evening meal. The key word here being "one".
You do that every day for a week, maybe have 2 on a Saturday, you end up having had 8 pints.

What I observe in Ireland is that people will not drink during the week at all - the very notion of a glass of wine with a work lunch is considered rather shocking, but will then go out on a Saturday and have those same 8 pints in the span of 4 hours. Not for enjoyment (sure most of the time I would be willing to bet people don't even remember what it was they were drinking the night before), but with the simple and clear aim of getting drunk. Getting drunk is for many the goal of going on a night out.

So, yes, Ireland probably isn't far off in terms of how much is being drunk. HOW it's being drunk is a completely different matter, and I would say it is indeed cause for concern.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

On RTE's Drivetime on Friday the CEO of the Restaurant Association of Ireland Adrian Cummins was on complaining about the Good Friday opening.

He added this nugget of information about how they see their customers -

"last night you would have seen in off licences across the country people stocking up for house parties today..... they are an unregulated environment........... where we serve drink it's in a regulated environment....... we think this is the right way for our society..."

At about 35 minutes in on this link -
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10396170%3A83%3A03%2D04%2D2015%3A

I hate when they bring out this regulated environment nonsense. As if your local friendly publican only has your best interest and health at heart. My local publican is so concerned for his customers health and well being that he sometimes gets the gards to bring them home after they've spent the day in his safe and regulated environment.

hynesie08

Shenshen wrote: »

People in Germany (as an example, as I happen to know the place rather well) would have a high yearly average. This is down to a culture where people will often go out and have a pint with friends after work, or will have a pint with their evening meal. The key word here being "one".
You do that every day for a week, maybe have 2 on a Saturday, you end up having had 8 pints.

I've seen this scenario banded about before, i must be a bad influence because any germans I've met/worked with enjoy their beer as much as anyone irish, and they certainly aren't going out on a Saturday and "maybe having 2"

Shenshen

hynesie08 wrote: »

I've seen this scenario banded about before, i must be a bad influence because any germans I've met/worked with enjoy their beer as much as anyone irish, and they certainly aren't going out on a Saturday and "maybe having 2"

I've no statistic to back up either side, so it would have to be anecdote against anecdote I'm afraid.

Let's just say I left Germany to come live here when I was 30 - and in 30 years in Germany I had never seen people drink in the same fashion as they do over here.
I found it amusing to observe at first, but by now it frankly concerns me quite a bit.

hynesie08

Shenshen wrote: »

I've no statistic to back up either side, so it would have to be anecdote against anecdote I'm afraid.

Fair enough, and i agree there's a lot more acceptance of things like a beer with lunch or one after work (although Ireland is coming around) but when germans wanna drink, they drink. I was in a pub for the wc final which had a lot of germans, and they were putting it away like no ones business.