The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

dr.fuzzenstein

kylith wrote: »

The key factor is that we as a nation have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. We need to figure out how we can address that before we'll see any change in how our drinking habits.

Of course if we managed to change our habits so that it wasn't the done thing to get plastered at the weekend the publicans would then be up in arms about the damage to their profits from people having one or two pints and going home rather than drinking 8 or 9 pints in order to get as drunk as possible as quickly as possible.

I'm not disputing that at all, in fact I agree.
What pisses me off is the lazy and idiotic way the problem is being addressed.
"Gentleman, we as a nation are facing a crisis of massive proportions. Drinking has gotten out of hand. This affects all of us, as well as future generations and the very survival of the Irish state! However shall we deal with this crisis!?"

"How about making drink a bit more expensive?"

" Yep, that'll do, grand, problem solved, crisis averted, let's have an early weekend, anyone for a pint?"

And so it was that Ireland was saved. They all went to the pub and got hammered.
The End.

kylith

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm not disputing that at all, in fact I agree.
What pisses me off is the lazy and idiotic way the problem is being addressed.
"Gentleman, we as a nation are facing a crisis of massive proportions. Drinking has gotten out of hand. This affects all of us, as well as future generations and the very survival of the Irish state! However shall we deal with this crisis!?"

"How about making drink a bit more expensive?"

" Yep, that'll do, grand, problem solved, crisis averted, let's have an early weekend, anyone for a pint?"

And so it was that Ireland was saved. They all went to the pub and got hammered.
The End.

I totally agree. Raising the price of alcohol won't do anything except make it more expensive to get drunk. People will drink as much, they'll just complain more.

It's hard to see how any real change could be made because it's so ingrained now. It's even how we're seen on an international level (I spent the day in an American high school when I was about 14 and no-one wanted to go near me because all they knew about Irish people is that they drink and fight, yes, even at the age of 14). It'd need a massive shift in attitudes to alcohol, seeing it as an optional aid to socialising rather than the reason to socialise.

elperello

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm not disputing that at all, in fact I agree.
What pisses me off is the lazy and idiotic way the problem is being addressed.
"Gentleman, we as a nation are facing a crisis of massive proportions. Drinking has gotten out of hand. This affects all of us, as well as future generations and the very survival of the Irish state! However shall we deal with this crisis!?"

"How about making drink a bit more expensive?"

" Yep, that'll do, grand, problem solved, crisis averted, let's have an early weekend, anyone for a pint?"

And so it was that Ireland was saved. They all went to the pub and got hammered.
The End.

Exactly.

The problem with excessive drinking can only be successfully addressed at the point of consumption not the point of purchase.

This proposal will not change the habits of people who go out to pubs to drink at all.

What it will do is penalise those who want to enjoy a drink at home.

If the Licensed Vintners Association (Dublin publicans representative body) get their way a couple drinking 10 cans and a bottle of wine per week between them will end up paying €780 a year extra. That is more than the LPT and Irish Water added together for many.

That's what your friendly local Dublin publican is wishing on you!

( The LVA propose a minimum of €2 for a can and €10 for a bottle of wine. Currently by shopping around and buying special offers you can get cans for €1 and a bottle of wine for €5.)

kylith

elperello wrote: »

Exactly.

The problem with excessive drinking can only be successfully addressed at the point of consumption not the point of purchase.

This proposal will not change the habits of people who go out to pubs to drink at all.

What it will do is penalise those who want to enjoy a drink at home.

If the Licensed Vintners Association (Dublin publicans representative body) get their way a couple drinking 10 cans and a bottle of wine per week between them will end up paying €780 a week extra. That is more than the LPT and Irish Water added together for many.

That's what your friendly local Dublin publican is wishing on you!

( The LVA propose a minimum of €2 for a can and €10 for a bottle of wine. Currently by shopping around and buying special offers you can get cans for €1 and a bottle of wine for €5.)

E780 a week? Are you sure of that? Minimum pricing of E2 per can and E10 for wine would give them a weekly bill, assuming they're buying the cheapest they can, of E30.

elperello

kylith wrote: »

E780 a week? Are you sure of that? Minimum pricing of E2 per can and E10 for wine would give them a weekly bill, assuming they're buying the cheapest they can, of E30.

Sorry that should be €780 a year extra.

kylith

elperello wrote: »

Sorry that should be €780 a year extra.

That makes much more sense! You'd want to be knocking back a bottle of Islay malt a night to get close to E780 a week on booze!

syklops

hynesie08 wrote: »

Fair enough, and i agree there's a lot more acceptance of things like a beer with lunch or one after work (although Ireland is coming around) but when germans wanna drink, they drink. I was in a pub for the wc final which had a lot of germans, and they were putting it away like no ones business.

But the germans(and not just the Germans) can get drunk without being "Drunk and disorderly". They keep an eye on each other and anyone consuming or feeling the effects more than the group is reeled in a bit, or is sent home. It is not socially acceptable to be messy drunk. Yet for some reason it is acceptable here, though it is becoming less acceptable.

Shenshen

syklops wrote: »

But the germans(and not just the Germans) can get drunk without being "Drunk and disorderly". They keep an eye on each other and anyone consuming or feeling the effects more than the group is reeled in a bit, or is sent home. It is not socially acceptable to be messy drunk. Yet for some reason it is acceptable here, though it is becoming less acceptable.

I think that's a symptom of a much deeper difference in cultures.
Germany is a very densely populated country, getting along and group harmony are much, much more important than they are here. And because of that, most Germans are more likely to step back a little if they see that it's for everyone's benefit. "Don't make a nuisance of yourself today, and you won't have to deal with someone else making a nuisance of themselves tomorrow" way of thinking. A lighter, less stringent version of Japan, in a way.

Or to put it this way : In Germany, you're expexted not to act like an eejit. Here, people are expected to tolerate others acting the eejit.

mikom

Shenshen wrote: »

I think that's a symptom of a much deeper difference in cultures.
Germany is a very densely populated country, getting along and group harmony are much, much more important than they are here. And because of that, most Germans are more likely to step back a little if they see that it's for everyone's benefit. "Don't make a nuisance of yourself today, and you won't have to deal with someone else making a nuisance of themselves tomorrow" way of thinking. A lighter, less stringent version of Japan, in a way.

Or to put it this way : In Germany, you're expexted not to act like an eejit. Here, people are expected to tolerate others acting the eejit.

All depends on the decade I suppose.........

Shenshen

mikom wrote: »

All depends on the decade I suppose.........

I can't imagine it changed all that much from 2002 to 2015?

syklops

Shenshen wrote: »

I think that's a symptom of a much deeper difference in cultures.
Germany is a very densely populated country, getting along and group harmony are much, much more important than they are here. And because of that, most Germans are more likely to step back a little if they see that it's for everyone's benefit. "Don't make a nuisance of yourself today, and you won't have to deal with someone else making a nuisance of themselves tomorrow" way of thinking. A lighter, less stringent version of Japan, in a way.

Or to put it this way : In Germany, you're expexted not to act like an eejit. Here, people are expected to tolerate others acting the eejit.

Thing is its not just Germany. I have experience of the drink culture in Poland and Czech Republic, which also has some remote areas, and theres similar attitudes. It really seems like its only the British and Irish where its ok to get paralytic and cause a nuisance.

suicide_circus

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm not disputing that at all, in fact I agree.
What pisses me off is the lazy and idiotic way the problem is being addressed.
"Gentleman, we as a nation are facing a crisis of massive proportions. Drinking has gotten out of hand. This affects all of us, as well as future generations and the very survival of the Irish state! However shall we deal with this crisis!?"

"How about making drink a bit more expensive?"

" Yep, that'll do, grand, problem solved, crisis averted, let's have an early weekend, anyone for a pint?"

And so it was that Ireland was saved. They all went to the pub and got hammered.
The End.

Beautiful story

dr.fuzzenstein

suicide_circus wrote: »

Beautiful story

I can't see these meeting go down any other way.
In Ireland we like to see what the easiest, laziest way to address our problems is and then stick with it.
Road Safety=Slow
Windmills=Green (we'll just import nuclear energy from the UK on the QT)
No abortion=no teen pregnancy (export the problem to Britain)
High Price=Responsible and safe drinking

That way you have a simple solution to each problem facing Ireland today. If it doesn't work, plough right ahead with it. No point in thinking, just come up with a slogan and repeat, repeat, repeat.
That's how we work. Lazy, quick solutions that require no work and you can put a slogan on tape and play it on a loop. If shouting it at people doesn't work, you're not shouting loud enough.
God, I'd love to work for a government think-tank! I am willing to spend a whole 20 hours a week to come up with lazy, hackneyed, stupid slogans that don't work. I would accept a salary of €50k. That means I would work twice as hard for half the money than most of the other doorstops and speedbumps who come up with this sh*te.

syklops

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I can't see these meeting go down any other way.
In Ireland we like to see what the easiest, laziest way to address our problems is and then stick with it.
Road Safety=Slow
Windmills=Green (we'll just import nuclear energy from the UK on the QT)
No abortion=no teen pregnancy (export the problem to Britain)
High Price=Responsible and safe drinking

That way you have a simple solution to each problem facing Ireland today. If it doesn't work, plough right ahead with it. No point in thinking, just come up with a slogan and repeat, repeat, repeat.
That's how we work. Lazy, quick solutions that require no work and you can put a slogan on tape and play it on a loop. If shouting it at people doesn't work, you're not shouting loud enough.
God, I'd love to work for a government think-tank! I am willing to spend a whole 20 hours a week to come up with lazy, hackneyed, stupid slogans that don't work. I would accept a salary of €50k. That means I would work twice as hard for half the money than most of the other doorstops and speedbumps who come up with this sh*te.

Also, if you dont want the public to do it, put the cost up.

Reduce road deaths -> Encourage people to use Public Transport -> put up VRT.
Discourage alcohol consumption -> Encourage people to go to pubs -> increase prices on off-licenses and supermarkets.

dr.fuzzenstein

syklops wrote: »

Also, if you dont want the public to do it, put the cost up.

Reduce road deaths -> Encourage people to use Public Transport -> put up VRT.
Discourage alcohol consumption -> Encourage people to go to pubs -> increase prices on off-licenses and supermarkets.

Sorry, what public transport? ;-)

syklops

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sorry, what public transport? ;-)

Don't get me started.

rubadub

syklops wrote: »

Reduce road deaths -> Encourage people to use Public Transport -> put up VRT.

At least they did not set a minimum price on cars and let the car salesmen take the profit -like what is proposed with this min drink pricing.

In some threads people have made out like its on cheap beers like dutch gold causing the problem, and making out like wealthy alcoholics do not even exist, saying "nobody binge drinks on champagne" or similar.

We already have a pricing strategy to put people off, a sin tax, excise duty. I would rather see this increased. So if they want the €1 can to raise to €2.50 then increase excise by €1.50. So this would mean your fancy beers might increase from €3 to €4.50. The wealthy dipsos would then be effected too, why should they be let off scott free, if anything they should be finding a way of making them pay even more.

Some might see this as unfair to the producers of such beers who will see a drop in sales and may have to close, but so what? there seems little sympathy for the breweries currently making the €1 beers who may have to close or make dramatic changes to their setup.

There is little evidence of any below cost selling going on in this country, just publicans trying to tell you there is. So if excise duty did increase hugely there would be no €1 beers. It would also mean no loopholes in the law, which I am sure supermarkets & offies will try and exploit. (e.g. tesco might have amazing dinner meals, pizza, dvd, cans at a very cheap price, effectively giving the pizza & dvd free)

Capt'n Midnight

rubadub wrote: »

There is little evidence of any below cost selling going on in this country, just publicans trying to tell you there is.

Look at the prices of cans of baked beans or kidney beans in Lidl or Aldi.

That's the maximum cost of producing, transporting and selling canned goods at a profit. And those cans contain more food and metal than a beer can.

I'd be truly shocked if anyone was selling beer at a price below the cost of production. And despite what the publicans might suggest excise duty hasn't change all that much since 1994. In real terms it's fallen most years since then.

rubadub

I actually do believe below cost selling of alcohol goes on to some degree, but nowhere near what the publicans/lobbyists talk about, and not the products they mention. In fact I have not heard any publicans/lobby people mention the ones I do believe may be sold below cost -which are supermarket own brand spirits, which are sold little above the excise duty costs.

In the UK they looked into banning below cost selling as an alternative to minimum pricing. When they investigated several supermarkets they found that one 3 or 4 obscure non mainstream beer brands were being sold below cost.

The likes of heineken longnecks through the offical distribution routes will cost publicans a lot, one publican was on before talking about €35 per 24, not sure if it included vat. You have moronic publicans who are either fools themselves, or take the public for fools and presume centra must be selling below cost at 20 bottles for €15. Oddballs who presume all wholesale prices are the same. There is no way centra are employing the below cost strategy, most people I see are not even buying a bag of crisps with the beer, let alone a weekly shop.

Smart publicans will buy in supermarkets, as I know many do. If I owned a pub I would have a few of the "official distribution" ones, and charge more accordingly and make it clear when selling them, since you will get whingers moaning about it saying "not for sale individually" or similar on the bottle -which has absolutely no legal bearing. The breweries and distributors should be demonized a lot more, people end up shooting the messenger -in this case some stupid obedient publican doing what they want.

ToddyDoody

You know white spirits is just alcohol

rubadub

ToddyDoody wrote: »

You know white spirits is just alcohol

Are you talking of the stuff to clean paint brushes? it's not alcohol.


If you meant "white spirits" as in white rum or vodka, then yes of course they are alcohol -I doubt you meant them but might try and weasel out of being wrong about the other "fact".

Billy86

hynesie08 wrote: »

Fair enough, and i agree there's a lot more acceptance of things like a beer with lunch or one after work (although Ireland is coming around) but when germans wanna drink, they drink. I was in a pub for the wc final which had a lot of germans, and they were putting it away like no ones business.

That's hardly a fair comparison though, in honesty...

Naos

Decided to be a good lad tonight & drive - so no drinking.

Paid a handsome €4.75 for a 330ml bottle of Becks Non-alcoholic. Thought that was very pricey, will get a diet coke next.
Paid €2.80 for a 200ml bottle of diet coke. Well f*ck that, not buying any more drinks here and left soon after.

This argument about 'Public Health' is a farce - It'd have been cheaper to have left the car at home and buy pints of beer (€5.50) than what I was paying for the non-alcoholic alternatives.

buried

'Health' is the current buzzword for every single greasy politician from every greasy political sphere. And it's because "health" is one of the last realms of control these political shysters can wield in order to make it look like they are in some sort of control. They can't control the economy no more because they handed that power to the greasy banks and the greasy financial markets, so, "health" and "saving peoples lives" is the new bull$hit cloak of "power". Heard Mattie McGrath a few weeks ago talking about and favouring this motion and his argument was "Lookit, its me Job to save lives so ittis" Ehh, No Mattie, that isn't your f**king job actually

ProudDUB

Naos wrote: »

Decided to be a good lad tonight & drive - so no drinking.

Paid a handsome €4.75 for a 330ml bottle of Becks Non-alcoholic. Thought that was very pricey, will get a diet coke next.
Paid €2.80 for a 200ml bottle of diet coke. Well f*ck that, not buying any more drinks here and left soon after.

This argument about 'Public Health' is a farce - It'd have been cheaper to have left the car at home and buy pints of beer (€5.50) than what I was paying for the non-alcoholic alternatives.

Yep. Totally with ya there. Yesterday, I paid 2.90 and 2.75 for a club orange, in two pubs in the north Wicklow area. If you are a bacardi and coke or vodka and 7up drinker, it is PAINFUL to have to cough up that kind of money for a feckin mineral.

Selling minerals in those small glass bottles is a total rip off for the punter. If the bottles were (a) bigger (the same size as the standard plastic bottles of minerals that you'd buy in a Centra) so that you could keep half of it for your next round and (b) were sold with the cap on, so that you could keep one half fizzy for the next round....it may, just may be better value. But even with that, it's a crazy amount of money to be charging for a soft drink.

foggy_lad

The pub trade is dying because every time I buy two pints the price has gone up! If the publicans(who are doing just as well as the turf accountants) want more bums on seats and stools they need to drop their trou.....prices and not be worrying about minimum pricing! If that comes in people will blame and hate the publicans as being greedy bastards and will stop going to pubs altogether! If they can't stick the heat they should shut up shop!

cerastes

foggy_lad wrote: »

The pub trade is dying because every time I buy two pints the price has gone up! If the publicans(who are doing just as well as the turf accountants) want more bums on seats and stools they need to drop their trou.....prices and not be worrying about minimum pricing! If that comes in people will blame and hate the publicans as being greedy bastards and will stop going to pubs altogether! If they can't stick the heat they should shut up shop!

turf accountants? farmers?
As for the publicans, its like the dying days of the Reich, they are pushing imaginary armies around, but at the same time they dont care what they fcuk up as they can see how its been and how its going, this will be a nail in the coffin and with measures like these, I hope it is. None of their business how a competing business is operating, they are providing arguments like politicians, ie point the finger at someone else rather than actually come up with a solution or adress the reason people are leaving or have left in their droves, ie their own prices and in a lot of cases, poor service. They (vintners) should be tackling the govt about rates and practices and prices of the likes of Diageo rather than blaming potential customers for seeing the light and moving, they should either move with the times or close, pushing legislation like they are will drive customers away, they have no right to influence the choices made by masses of people already.
What next? blame the tourists for not getting locked?

ToddyDoody

hqdefault.jpg

rubadub wrote: »

weasel.

This stuff..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol

mikemac1

Went to the bar in Tolka Park on Friday night to watch league of Ireland football. You'd want a stiff drink if you saw the Shels keeper dealing with crosses :eek:

There was a time when a fiver in Dublin would get you a long neck Heineken, now it's about 5.40 - 5.50

3.50 said the barman

Now I did buy a match ticket to get in there but I was happy. Normally stadiums gouge you for money

A salute to the club :cool:

cerastes

Naos wrote: »

Decided to be a good lad tonight & drive - so no drinking.

Paid a handsome €4.75 for a 330ml bottle of Becks Non-alcoholic. Thought that was very pricey, will get a diet coke next.
Paid €2.80 for a 200ml bottle of diet coke. Well f*ck that, not buying any more drinks here and left soon after.

This argument about 'Public Health' is a farce - It'd have been cheaper to have left the car at home and buy pints of beer (€5.50) than what I was paying for the non-alcoholic alternatives.

I remember relatives in the States saying 20 years ago, designated driver can get drinks for free, I dont know what ratio or rules they apply, but its easy to see 1 in 5 people able to avail of the offer so the publicans dont accuse people of trying to rob them, what then? will taxi drivers accuse people of availing of lower cost transport? nope, because there is a regulator! paying over the odds for a dash of diluteable or minerals generally is madness, not to mention the prices for alcoholic drinks. I recal pitchers of beer being fairly cheap there, I dont remember people going mad drinking and falling about the place like there was no tomorrow, and if they were then the publican should stop serving.