The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

A Disgrace

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I hope Diageo is on the case.

Most of Diageos products will remain unchanged after minimum pricing (Guinness, being the obvious one, is already over €2 a can, and only has about 2 units) - They'll be supporting this as it will effectively kill off their competition

If this goes through, we’re heading for a world of low volume beers, specifically weakened to be as cheap as allowable – and many ‘nice’ beers, priced out of the market. Good times

elperello

A full list of 30 supporters of the Minimum Unit Pricing Coalition brought together by Alcohol Action Ireland.
They include St Vincent de Paul and Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre.

http://alcoholireland.ie/minimum-pricing-campaign/supporters/

Caliden

None of this matters until the outcome of the Scottish case before the European courts in May.


Edit: just read that the ruling won't be until 2016 which coincides with Leo's excuse of these measures not coming into effect for another 2 years due to costs to suppliers/retailers.

In other words, kick the can far enough down the road until after the EU ruling.

syklops

elperello wrote: »

A full list of 30 supporters of the Minimum Unit Pricing Coalition brought together by Alcohol Action Ireland.
They include St Vincent de Paul and Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre.

http://alcoholireland.ie/minimum-pricing-campaign/supporters/

Im surprised at the likes of St V de P. Surely they know from all they alcoholics they deal with that increasing the price of booze only takes money out of childrens and families domestic budgets.

Dawn Rider

elperello wrote: »

More support for Minimum Unit Pricing from charities including -

Barnardos
ISPCC
Irish Cancer Society
Rape Crisis Network of Ireland

http://alcoholireland.ie/uncategorized/national-charities-and-medical-representative-organisations-back-call-for-minimum-pricing/

Have a look at the Benefits section. There are only 3 of what could be described as such, at a stretch, the rest of the bullet points should be in the 'facts' part.
It's almost if a bit of padding was needed...

Cienciano

Anyone know what Dublin pubs are non LVA? Would be great to have a list, normally when I go into town it doesn't really matter what pub I go to. But if I knew which ones were non LVA, I'd rather give them my business

dr.fuzzenstein

syklops wrote: »

Im surprised at the likes of St V de P. Surely they know from all they alcoholics they deal with that increasing the price of booze only takes money out of childrens and families domestic budgets.

Ah no worries, truly desperate alcoholics are very inventive. Rubbing alcohol, white spirit, methylated spirits, perfume, bio ethanol stove fuel, they'll find something to drink.
Of course more people will die because of ingestion of the above products, but sure, as long as we're thinking of the children it's all worth it. It doesn't matter how many people will die, as long as we're saving lives!

syklops

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ah no worries, truly desperate alcoholics are very inventive. Rubbing alcohol, white spirit, methylated spirits, perfume, bio ethanol stove fuel, they'll find something to drink.
Of course more people will die because of ingestion of the above products, but sure, as long as we're thinking of the children it's all worth it. It doesn't matter how many people will die, as long as we're saving lives!

I agree, but you missed my point a little bit.

Imagine a single mum or dad who is an alcoholic. They get 186 euro dole, rent alloance and childrens allowance. After bills etc the household budget and alcohol budget is lets say 100 euro. We will be conservative and say they get 3 bottles of vodka to keep them going for the week at fifteen euros each, which is 45 euros, leaving 55 for feeding and clothing the child. If the government arbitrarily increase the price of cheap vodka to 25 euros a bottle, the alcoholic wont drink less. They will continue drinking the same amount but instead will be left with 25 euros a week to feed and clothe their child.

Arbitrarily increasing the price of alcohol will take food out of the mouths of children. Fact.

dr.fuzzenstein

syklops wrote: »

I agree, but you missed my point a little bit.

Imagine a single mum or dad who is an alcoholic. They get 186 euro dole, rent alloance and childrens allowance. After bills etc the household budget and alcohol budget is lets say 100 euro. We will be conservative and say they get 3 bottles of vodka to keep them going for the week at fifteen euros each, which is 45 euros, leaving 55 for feeding and clothing the child. If the government arbitrarily increase the price of cheap vodka to 25 euros a bottle, the alcoholic wont drink less. They will continue drinking the same amount but instead will be left with 25 euros a week to feed and clothe their child.

Arbitrarily increasing the price of alcohol will take food out of the mouths of children. Fact.

I totally get that and agree. I was just pointing out that at some point the money will be so tight or simply not there, he'll start drinking the toilet duck and that's where things get really bad.
I had some respect for Mr Varadkar, but not any more. What a lazy, ill thought out, idiotic way to "tackle" a problem. With already some of the highest prices for alcohol in the world to state that the only reason people drink is because it's cheap and jack up price is despicable, cynical, think-of-the-children vote hooring. It's cosmetic politics to make himself look good and detract from the real problems in the health service. it's cynical and insults my intelligence.

rubadub

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ah no worries, truly desperate alcoholics are very inventive. Rubbing alcohol, white spirit, methylated spirits, perfume, bio ethanol stove fuel, they'll find something to drink.
Of course more people will die because of ingestion of the above products

I am not sure if I ever heard of someone in Ireland dying or being poisoned by knowingly drinking anything you list. I have often heard anecdotes of winos drinking meths.

However I would certainly predict an increase in poisoning due to people drinking counterfeit blackmarket spirits, which are known to be mixed with methanol and other industrial alcohols. There was poisoning a few years ago that lead to death. Note I am not talking of poitin, made from fermentables, I have never once heard a case of problems with that. It is criminal gangs stealing pure industrial spirits and passing it off as real -they are not brewing it. The problem is huge in some countries, and if the proposed €30 bottle comes in then the people paying €12.69 for a bottle now will probably consider the blackmarket stuff.

dr.fuzzenstein

rubadub wrote: »

I am not sure if I ever heard of someone in Ireland dying or being poisoned by knowingly drinking anything you list. I have often heard anecdotes of winos drinking meths.

However I would certainly predict an increase in poisoning due to people drinking counterfeit blackmarket spirits, which are known to be mixed with methanol and other industrial alcohols. There was poisoning a few years ago that lead to death. Note I am not talking of poitin, made from fermentables, I have never once heard a case of problems with that. It is criminal gangs stealing pure industrial spirits and passing it off as real -they are not brewing it. The problem is huge in some countries, and if the proposed €30 bottle comes in then the people paying €12.69 for a bottle now will probably consider the blackmarket stuff.

I couldn't find exact statistics either. I did find that there is minimum pricing for vodka in Russia, which surprised me.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/29/russia-vodka-idUSL5N0JE0U720131129
Compared to Russia, we're as sober as judges here.

Cuddlesworth

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I couldn't find exact statistics either. I did find that there is minimum pricing for vodka in Russia, which surprised me.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/29/russia-vodka-idUSL5N0JE0U720131129
Compared to Russia, we're as sober as judges here.

Its only vodka and they reduced it recently due to economic crisis. It has also been shown to have no effect on consumption.

rubadub

sometimes fatal if not distilled properly

This is not the case, at least I have never heard of a single case due to this, and I have heard of hundreds, and challenged people to find one which was due to incorrect distillation of fermented brews. It is invariably industrial alcohol being substituted or used to dilute.

14 die in Russia of suspected methanol poisoning

Associated Press 7:14 AM | Monday, March 17th, 2014

MOSCOW – Investigators in Russia said at least 14 people in a village in the Far East have died of apparent methanol poisoning after drinking counterfeit liquor.

Officials in the Krasnokamensk region said Sunday they believe the alcohol may have been imported from China, around hour’s drive from the village. The federal Investigative Committee said a 49-year-old resident of the village, Krasny Velikan, has been detained on suspicion of selling the liquor.

Russia has for years battled in vain to combat a lucrative trade in counterfeit alcohol, much of which is now carried out online.

The official minimum price for a half-liter of vodka was raised earlier this month to 199 rubles ($5.40), a move that experts worry could lead to a spike in the consumption of moonshine.



Read more: http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/586238/14-die-in-russia-of-suspected-methanol-poisoning#ixzz3YiGVYged

A lot of it goes on in India, there were deaths in Norway where alcohol is expensive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methanol_poisoning_incidents

First deaths in Ireland of methanol intoxication recorded at Donegal inquest

JULY 6, 2014 10:30 PM

THE Food Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI) has expressed ‘grave concern’ after the first reported deaths of methanol intoxication were recorded at an inquest in Donegal.
Mr John Cody, Chief Audit Manager of the FSAI, told the hearing in Letterkenny on Thursday that the fact that the two deaths were reported in close proximity in rural Ireland was also a major worry.
Coroner, Mr John Cannon, heard the inquests of the late Denis Boyle of Belcruit, Meenbanad, and Ramantas Grigaliunas also of Meenbanad.
Methanol poisoning involves the ingestion of Methanol, a highly toxic, non-drinking type of alcohol used for industrial and automotive purposes.
Mr Cody told the inquest the authority was alerted to the two Donegal deaths after they were first reported earlier this year and subsequently visited the county and took bottles seized by Gardaí from the second incident and took them for analysis.
Chemists at the Customs and Excise laboratory analysed the bottles, which came back with a result of one bottle containing almost one litre of nearly pure methanol, at 97 per cent.

http://donegalnews.com/2014/07/first-deaths-in-ireland-of-methanol-intoxication-recorded-at-donegal-inquest/

dr.fuzzenstein

Expect plenty more.
And yes, I would agree, a lot will be due to Chinese crap, they are not too fussy about a little bit of mercury, arsenic, industrial alcohol and whatever else you fancy. And expect the same smugglers who are smuggling in millions of cigarettes to branch out into alcohol, so some crime families will become immensly rich and powerful. So we can look forward to an explosion in gang activity and violence. In fact, alcohol and tobacco prices are the best thing the Irish state has ever done for organised crime, they might just as well have given them a few million in state subvention. Bootlegging, violence and murder. brought to you with sponsorship by the Irish government.
Also expect Garda raids on Poitin factories to start up again, so funny, I will always associate that with the 90's.
We're moving backwards fast.

cerastes

rubadub wrote: »

I am not sure if I ever heard of someone in Ireland dying or being poisoned by knowingly drinking anything you list. I have often heard anecdotes of winos drinking meths.

However I would certainly predict an increase in poisoning due to people drinking counterfeit blackmarket spirits, which are known to be mixed with methanol and other industrial alcohols. There was poisoning a few years ago that lead to death. Note I am not talking of poitin, made from fermentables, I have never once heard a case of problems with that. It is criminal gangs stealing pure industrial spirits and passing it off as real -they are not brewing it. The problem is huge in some countries, and if the proposed €30 bottle comes in then the people paying €12.69 for a bottle now will probably consider the blackmarket stuff.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Its only vodka and they reduced it recently due to economic crisis. It has also been shown to have no effect on consumption.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Expect plenty more.
And yes, I would agree, a lot will be due to Chinese crap, they are not too fussy about a little bit of mercury, arsenic, industrial alcohol and whatever else you fancy. And expect the same smugglers who are smuggling in millions of cigarettes to branch out into alcohol, so some crime families will become immensly rich and powerful. So we can look forward to an explosion in gang activity and violence. In fact, alcohol and tobacco prices are the best thing the Irish state has ever done for organised crime, they might just as well have given them a few million in state subvention. Bootlegging, violence and murder. brought to you with sponsorship by the Irish government.
Also expect Garda raids on Poitin factories to start up again, so funny, I will always associate that with the 90's.
We're moving backwards fast.

Don't you all realise prohibition and proselytising temperance moralists will lead to a better society, what wrong could come of it, I mean sure there's no need to look at history, or even what's happening anywhere else that tries this method?

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ira-moonshine-operation-smashed-by-customs-officers-30302121.html

Last Wednesday, Customs officers seized some 110,000 bottle caps and 400,000 fake labels for well-known brands at a shed in Kilcurry, Co Louth. They also seized bottling plant and 500 cardboard boxes. Two men were detained but released without charge.

The bottling plant is believed to be just part of the IRA's illicit alcohol operation and Customs and police have still to discover whether or not there is still a distillery in operation in the Border area.

Alternatively, the IRA might also be sourcing the alcohol from a foreign supplier, possibly in Eastern Europe, where it has had links to the illicit tobacco trade going back over 20 years.

In the UK people were caught using mobile bottling plants on the back of trucks and using Iso Propyl Alcohol in the mix.

dr.fuzzenstein

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ira-moonshine-operation-smashed-by-customs-officers-30302121.html

In the UK people were caught using mobile bottling plants on the back of trucks and using Iso Propyl Alcohol in the mix.

So it begins...
In the end it doesn't matter how many people die from illegal hooch laced with industrial alcohol, how rich and powerful gangsters get, how many people will die in the inevitable gang warfare, how many millions or even billions the state will have to spend on enforcement and surveillance to counteract smuggling (doing a great job so far, boys! :rolleyes: ) and how the above will impact the lives of the people affected directly or indirectly. As long as no one had to actually think of an intelligent solution, as long as the voters think someone is doing something, as long as the minister can stand there, beating his chest and telling people tales of how he banged the table and shouted "at least we are doing something!", then everything is OK, we can just go on making the same mistakes over and over again and in the end stand there, wringing our hands, going "Why isn't this helping?! Why do people STILL drink? Why do we now have a massive problem with armed criminal gangs?".

And the inevitable answer (million bucks, my left nut): It's STILL not expensive enough! Wham up the price of booze, yeah, that'll do it! It didn't help the last 26 times, but we're pretty certain 27 is the lucky number and this time it WILL sort out the problem once and for all! General cheering, backslapping, off to the pub.
No one can tell me the government put ANY more thought into it. I have extrapolated this from governemnt policy on alcohol abuse since 1994, nothing has happened other than "let's put a few more € on the auld reliables"

Capt'n Midnight

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

No one can tell me the government put ANY more thought into it. I have extrapolated this from governemnt policy on alcohol abuse since 1994, nothing has happened other than "let's put a few more € on the auld reliables"

How many times has excise on beer gone up since 1994 ?

It's not many, about one per decade, and the duty on low alcohol beers below 2.8% was halved, and the duty for craft beers was reduced.

But just to recap , the excise duty is NOT being increased in this case.
The actual plan is for the Govt. to loose revenue. (unless pub and restaurant trade generates enough extra VAT to cover the drop in Excise from the supermarkets and off-licenses)

Phil Mitchell

I have noticed a fair few Bottles of vodka floating about being offered on the cheap lately. Vodka is an easy one to fake as nobody really drinks it straight.

Essentially what will happen now is poorer people with drink problems will end up availing of these type of services because they cannot buy the traditional 6 cans for €6 anymore

dr.fuzzenstein

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How many times has excise on beer gone up since 1994 ?

It's not many, about one per decade, and the duty on low alcohol beers below 2.8% was halved, and the duty for craft beers was reduced.

But just to recap , the excise duty is NOT being increased in this case.
The actual plan is for the Govt. to loose revenue. (unless pub and restaurant trade generates enough extra VAT to cover the drop in Excise from the supermarkets and off-licenses)

It is completely unimportant how the government gets the increase. The end result is to increase the price of drink (at least in the shop). Also, Ireland has some of the highest prices of alcohol anywhere in the world, so the "it's all down to price" argument is a lie and horsesh*t. To say it's not about generating profit for the state is misleading, this is more about shunting some business the way of their good buddies and relatives in the pub trade.
The bottom line is, this is whamming up the price, it doesn't work and they're either doing it because they're very stupid or very cute.
You can be sure this was not done for the good health of anyone.

Capt'n Midnight

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It is completely unimportant how the government gets the increase.

The gov't doesn't get an increase.
The extra price for supermarket beer will be pocketed by the supermarkets.

The bottom line is, this is whamming up the price, it doesn't work and they're either doing it because they're very stupid or very cute.
You can be sure this was not done for the good health of anyone.

There's nothing cute about upsetting the punters. Especially if you have to raise taxes elsewhere to compensate for the shortfall.

Help!!!!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The gov't doesn't get an increase.
The extra price for supermarket beer will be pocketed by the supermarkets.

More profit for the supermarket more tax to pay government

dr.fuzzenstein

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The gov't doesn't get an increase.
The extra price for supermarket beer will be pocketed by the supermarkets.


There's nothing cute about upsetting the punters. Especially if you have to raise taxes elsewhere to compensate for the shortfall.

Maybe I phrased that badly.
What I meant to say is, it doesn't matter how the government achieves higher alcohol prices and who gets to profit from it.
The bottom line is that the government worships at the altar of "higher price=drink problem solved", because other than that they're doing, and have been doing, SFA else to combat the "problem" if there is one. It's just nice from a PR point of view to have some convenient windmills to run at to show the people that "we care and we're doing something!"
Verstehen Sie?

Also, it's cute as fcuk. It's shunting business the way of their very good friends and relatives in the pub trade. They don't want to compete on price or service, so in true cute hoor fashion, you see how you can fcuk over your competition. Must be some kind of pull to get the government in on the racket. Only the boys at the alarm and CCTV industry have more pull.

Capt'n Midnight

Help!!!! wrote: »

More profit for the supermarket more tax to pay government

100% of excise goes to the government.

In this case there will be a guaranteed reduction in excise if alcohol consumption falls.

For big concerns tax avoidance is easy, simple profit repatriation stuff. Apple pays something like 2% here. There's a reason why accountants run most companies in the British Isles. It's much harder to find new customers than new tax loopholes.

I'd imagine that Tesco will be writing off profit against losses for years so zero revenue increase there.

Yes VAT take will increase but only if consumption doesn't fall and all the big companies can write off much of that against costs.


If they want to make drink cost more then increase the excise. That will also pay some of the health costs. Simples.

If they want to get people in pubs then remind publicans and the drinks industry that it only costs a few cent to make a pint.

Another way would be to do what restaurants do and charge corkage.
Lidl are doing perlenbacher for less than a euro a pint (including excise and VAT). While it's not a craft beer, unlike heino or carlsberg you aren't paying for a lot of advertising. http://www.lidl.ie/en/5209.htm

The difference between that price and what you pay in the pub is what you pay for the privilege of drinking in a pub.


Could publicans charge differently for the service and the beer ?
And have each at a different VAT rate ?

Euro for the pint at 23% , because that's just the retail price, and then charge two or three euro to pour and deliver it to the table and general ambiance at 9% ?? On a €4 pint that would save them 42c in VAT
10% might not sound much but if you remember that's 10% of gross turnover as pure profit, cha-ching !

Yes I'm sure there are rules but looking for loopholes like that are preferable to screwing the punters who don't visit pubs regularly

Help!!!!

Making the supermarkets put up the price isn't going to get people back into the pubs.
The people who cause the problems drinking the cheap alcohol will still drink the same amount, they will just up the amount of crime they commit. Which causes even more problems
If the pubs want more custom they should bring down the prices to entice people to go into them
All this minimum pricing does is punish the law abiding citizen who wants a couple of drinks after work but cant afford to go down their local. Or the OAP who likes a sherry at home before bed

dr.fuzzenstein

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

100% of excise goes to the government.

In this case there will be a guaranteed reduction in excise if alcohol consumption falls.

If being the word here. Also, any reduction in consumption will be from people who don't have a problem with their alcohol intake.
I can take it or leave it and if the price goes up, I might drink less.
The problem is, I am not the problem. I drink a few beers every now and then and some weeks I drink no alcohol at all.
The people who have a genuine drinking problem, won't be dissuaded by price, they get it somewhere and that somewhere will be under the counter along with the black market fags.
This will only create problems, it will not solve any.

And I keep coming back to this (a point which the pro increase proponents avoid like the plague), you can get a bottle of Schnaps and a 6 pack in Germany for less than 20 quid. Do you see hordes of drunk Germans crawl around on their hands and knees when you're there? No. So the price argument is bollocks. I think I will copy and paste this paragraph as an answer to all people who say "but, uh, price is the only thing that matters, the government told us so!"

Help!!!!

There was less of a problem when people mainly drank in pubs because it was better policed. Unfortunately certain pub groups got greedy & kept putting the price up now their crying that people drink at home

darkpagandeath

Help!!!! wrote: »

There was less of a problem when people mainly drank in pubs because it was better policed. Unfortunately certain pub groups got greedy & kept putting the price up now their crying that people drink at home

:pac::pac::pac::D

elperello

Here is an interesting piece by Dan O'Brien entitled -

"Minimum Pricing for Alcohol is a Dumb Move".

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-obrien/minimum-pricing-for-alcohol-is-a-dumb-move-31266760.html

He pretty much deconstructs the plan from an economic/taxation point of view and also questions it from the personal freedom angle.

rubadub

elperello wrote: »

Here is an interesting piece by Dan O'Brien entitled -

At last. I have been posting about the loss in revenue in many threads, and how the media have ignored it. Some people seemed to presume the government would get this money, probably since they thought it would be stupid if they didn't -which it is.

An increase the excise would mean the wealthier dipsos would also be effected to some degree. At the moment the people abusing higher priced booze be it at home or in pubs must be laughing at this plan.

The government and off licence owners and supermarkets of course do not want to spell out that the extra money is mainly going into the retailers pockets. There is a small increase due to more VAT, but the bulk is going to them. I see this as a sneaky way to keep the offie owners from moaning. They will see a drop in sales due to this, which will be offset by the higher profits.

He also brings up another point I often do, the rise in illegal alcohol, though he was sort of perpetuating the myth of it being distilled alcohol which is dangerous, its gangs using industrial alcohols that's the problem.

That cunt Varadkar will have blood on his hands when we see more deaths due to people drinking industrial alcohol passed off as real. Also people who previously were drinking cheap beer & cider will be more likely to turn to illegal spirits, as that is what the trade is, not counterfeit or smuggled beer.

Are there any associations or groups who have officially/openly opposed it? seems to be that groups have been sort of bullied or at least coerced into supporting it. Like an alcohol awarness group will ring up a random company and ask if they support it and the knee jerk response would be to say yes.