The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

dr.fuzzenstein

elperello wrote: »

Tune in to Dr Varadkar at about 10.45 into this link on the Ray Darcy show last Thursday.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radiop...2D06-2015:

He clearly sees the Alcohol Bill as part of his legacy. Something he thinks he will be remembered for, even though our health service is riddled with seemingly insoluble problems.

I will not, because I am in no mood to clean projectile vomit from screen and keyboard.
How have successive ministers dealt with the health service?
Mary Harney just ignored it and used state helicopters to fly around Ireland to open off licenses for her friends and relatives. Micheal Martin introduced the smoking ban so people would argue about nothing else and the actual problems of the health service were ignore, James Reilly was just being an obnoxious a-hole and Leo is doing a Micheal Martin, introduce something big and controversial to distract us from the real problems in the health service.
None of them actually did the right thing, which would be to break up the union's stranglehold of the sector, which would have enabled them to push through meaningful reforms and get rid of thousands of useless pen pushers that do nothing productive instead of cutting down on front end services that endanger patient's lives.
The only way to do it would have been right after FG got elected, or maybe right after FF got elected for what I can only hope is the last time ever and then just push through all the reforms in one felt swoop.
Trying to play nicey-nice with the unions and the sector and pussy-footing around are useless, the government had a unique opportunity to just rip off this old, scabby bandage in one go and they utterly wasted it.
So the government has to come up with "controversial" (idiotic) plans that we will all fight over and we will forget all about the real problem, which is a massively bloated body of admin personnel which is sucking money out of frontline medicine, which puts patients at risk.
Some legacy Leo. Just another poser, like all the others

Capt'n Midnight

rubadub wrote: »

I think €2 is relatively good, most would sell a tea or coffee for more whose ingredients would cost less. Even it if was 20cent that is €1.80 extra per drink, while beer can be €4.50+ extra per drink over supermarket prices.

There's more labour in preparing a cuppa, and milk has a much shorter shelf life.

And if you get a pot you can usually ask them to throw more hot water in.

Maybe I should bring decaf teabags so it won't keep me awake after a night out

TerrorFirmer

Imagine what this would do to Lidl/Aldi? Their Vodka for 12.99 for example is light years ahead of Tesco's 'Everyday value vodka' which is just nasty - but now they'll have to suddenly jack the price to 17 or 18 euro? All of their own brand ranges of alcohol will become largely redundant as higher quality competitors will be similarly priced. At least Tesco do actually stock a wide range of brands, even if their own brands are rendered null. Where Lidl and Aldi's stock is 80% well-priced own brand.

I usually buy vodka in Lidl, but if the price was €18 I wouldn't bother as could get a bottle of Smirnoff/Vladivar/Huzzar or whatever on offer for the same price or a euro or two more.

Herb Powell

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Imagine what this would do to Lidl/Aldi? Their Vodka for 12.99 for example is light years ahead of Tesco's 'Everyday value vodka' which is just nasty - but now they'll have to suddenly jack the price to 17 or 18 euro? All of their own brand ranges of alcohol will become largely redundant as higher quality competitors will be similarly priced. At least Tesco do actually stock a wide range of brands, even if their own brands are rendered null. Where Lidl and Aldi's stock is 80% well-priced own brand.

I usually buy vodka in Lidl, but if the price was €18 I wouldn't bother as could get a bottle of Smirnoff/Vladivar/Huzzar or whatever on offer for the same price or a euro or two more.

You don't think the "premium" brands aren't going to take full advantage of this, and up their prices too?

the groutch

Flex wrote: »

I have a friend who works in Coke Cola and had another who formerly worked in Britvic (supply 7UP, Club Orange), and a 24 pack case of 200/220ml glass bottles typically cost was €12.00 a case (that was the total price charged for a single pub and is inclusive of VAT), €0.50c per bottle. 113ml bottles were about half that.

Typical price in a bar in Dublin is €2.50-€3.00, so about a 550% mark up on 200ml glass, near 1000% on 113ml bottles. Unsure about cans, but cant imagine why it wouldn't be similar.

one of the rare times I watched The Consumer Show last year specifically for a segment about this.
iirc, the average mark-up on a pint was 90%, the average mark-up on soft drinks was 400%.

senordingdong

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I will not, because I am in no mood to clean projectile vomit from screen and keyboard.
How have successive ministers dealt with the health service?

That's a fair point, but the biggest issue in tackling these issues is with the public and not the unions.

Long story short, fixing the problem will require it to get worse before it gets better. A strike would be expected, and the public would suffer.
But would the public get behind it? And would the government stranger their ground?

TerrorFirmer

Herb Powell wrote: »

You don't think the "premium" brands aren't going to take full advantage of this, and up their prices too?

No, because this is an excellent opportunity for them to drastically increase their market, as most people who previously bought supermarket own-brand vodka, beer, cider, rum or whatever won't bother buying the cheaper product over the better brands for the sake of a euro or two. If they upped their prices to match, people would just continue buying the cheaper brands and maintain the status quo.

anncoates

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

No, because this is an excellent opportunity for them to drastically increase their market, as most people who previously bought supermarket own-brand vodka, beer, cider, rum or whatever won't bother buying the cheaper product over the better brands for the sake of a euro or two. If they upped their prices to match, people would just continue buying the cheaper brands and maintain the status quo.

Be interesting to see what happens.

I think a lot of people actually prefer to pay a little extra for so-called premium brands like Carlsberg and Bud over your yellow pack lagers. often mistakenly.

I don't think these "premium" brands will want their brand lumped in the same price range as your Tesco or Galahad lagers in what is just a minuscule part of their global market.

Intifada

The minimum alcohol price is a proposal based on nothing other than greed, and surprise surprise it will hit the working class/poorest the hardest while the suits in charge won't have to worry with their €30 bottles of wine.

It would actually be easier to take if those involved just admitted as much and stopped giving us this bollocks about it being better for society.

rubadub

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I usually buy vodka in Lidl, but if the price was €18 I wouldn't bother as could get a bottle of Smirnoff/Vladivar/Huzzar or whatever on offer for the same price or a euro or two more.

I would have thought lidl vodka would be better than the 3 shite brands you mentioned, presuming its smirnoff red you are talking about.

I imagine the cheapest of the cheap will disappear from shelves. So lidl would not sell much of their cheapest beer & vodka and would only have the better quality ones.

If the price is €30 per bottle (which has been mentioned) then you might see a big change in what people buy. Like if I went into O'Briens right now with a €30 voucher and was told I could only use it on one bottle. I would not get what I went in for. I'd probably get an aged rum which is currently that price.

Similarly if they had a high min price on chocolate I would be buying more premium bars of lindt & leonidas rather than my usual kitkat or twix.

jobbridge4life

rubadub wrote: »

I would have thought lidl vodka would be better than the 3 shite brands you mentioned, presuming its smirnoff red you are talking about.

I imagine the cheapest of the cheap will disappear from shelves. So lidl would not sell much of their cheapest beer & vodka and would only have the better quality ones.

If the price is €30 per bottle (which has been mentioned) then you might see a big change in what people buy. Like if I went into O'Briens right now with a €30 voucher and was told I could only use it on one bottle. I would not get what I went in for. I'd probably get an aged rum which is currently that price.

Similarly if they had a high min price on chocolate I would be buying more premium bars of lindt & leonidas rather than my usual kitkat or twix.

Except for you wouldn't because pricing is interdependent. If the floor is now 30 euro, you can expect items previously available at that premium to increase in price rapidly.

dr.fuzzenstein

senordingdong wrote: »

That's a fair point, but the biggest issue in tackling these issues is with the public and not the unions.

Long story short, fixing the problem will require it to get worse before it gets better. A strike would be expected, and the public would suffer.
But would the public get behind it? And would the government stranger their ground?

We don't know since no government in Ireland would ever dare to go down the Thatcher route and just say "we're doing this and you will be dragged along kicking and screaming".
Would the public get behind it? That would depend on what sector they work in, any public sector worked would go on all out strike to help his or her suffering comrades who have long since had to put up with inhumane conditions akin to a Siberian salt mine only with worse pay, but any private sector worker who has seen layoffs, real paycuts and many households who now have to survive on LESS than 50% of what they made in the "good old days" would inclined to be less sympathetic.

senordingdong

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

We don't know since no government in Ireland would ever dare to go down the Thatcher route and just say "we're doing this and you will be dragged along kicking and screaming".
Would the public get behind it? .

I don't think it would depend.
This nation is too fond of the 'softly softly' approach and the tough love routine would never get off the ground.

rubadub

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Except for you wouldn't because pricing is interdependent. If the floor is now 30 euro, you can expect items previously available at that premium to increase in price rapidly.

How rapidly do you think it will increase? the very next day? And to what level do you think it will change?

The cheapest bottle of rum I know of is €11.69 and I would rate it better than bacardi so would not be buying bacardi if both were €30. Do you think it will be a % increase based on the cheapest?

If so the aged bottle for €30 now it would be €77 the first day of the new €30 limit (based 11.69 increasing to 30 and 30 increasing the same %). I don't think this will happen, therefore my example still holds, I predict people will change drinking habits & brands.

If you went on price difference rather than a % then the €30 aged rum is currently €18.31 higher than the cheap rum, so the aged rum would be €48.31 to maintain the same difference, again I don't think this will happen.

We currently do see weird price differences like this between offies and pubs. I rarely buy expensive beers in the offie, in the pub I do though. A can of heineken might be €1, and a bottle of budvar €2.60. I refuse to pay 2.6 times the price or €1.60 extra, whichever way you want to look at it. However in a pub the budvar may only be 20 or 30cent more and I think it is worth the bit extra.

People are predicting that the manufacturers will be increasing the price to the off licence, so they can get the bulk of the profit, and create/control this premium pricing. But most people are forgetting we have open competition outside of Ireland. My local eurospar often has heineken intended for the scottish market. It is brewed & canned in holland just like Irish heineken, but it is 5% and sold cheaper. This is presumably possible due to different wholesale prices.

If the likes of smirnoff do increase the wholesale price to €30 (incl VAT), forcing the offie to charge more than €30 to get a profit -the the offie will simply begin importing smirnoff from elsewhere, offies already do this. Regular consumers currently can buy spirits from the EU with Irish duty & VAT all paid in advance, so these online companies would become very popular if the predictions people are saying do come true.

There is also competition within Ireland, if a offie can sell a €30 bottle of aged rum right now and make a reasonable profit then they can do that after the min pricing too. If all the rest increase he can remain the same and clean up as there will be queues out the door.

And of course smuggling and illegal counterfeit spirits will increase.

syklops

The National Off-Licence Association has stated called on Government to reverse the budgetary hike on alcohol in Budget 2014.

Evelyn Jones, government affairs director of the National Off-Licence Association (NOffLA), stated: "Eurostat’s results highlight the disproportionate and unfair campaign the Irish Government alone is waging against the alcohol sector via excise duty, which places a severe drain on cash flow and jeopardises product quality.

"Eurostat correctly attributes the “large price variation” in price as “mainly due to differences in taxation".

According to NOffLA, excise on wine is 624% higher than the EU average. Beer and spirits are 298% and 243% above average, respectively.

"Not only has this placed the 92,000 jobs associated with the sector to extreme peril, we can see from Ireland’s ranking in other categories that excise is inflating Ireland’s average prices to that of fifth [highest] in the EU," she said.

Ireland ranks fifth highest in prices overall: we are fourth most expensive restaurants & hotels, fifth most expensive for personal transport equipment, sixth most expensive for food & non-alcoholic beverages, and tied-13th for most expensive consumer electronics.

"It is simply wrong to suggest high prices benefit anyone other than the Government," said Ms Jones.

"Not only is it anti-consumer, the level of excise means there is very little left for the actual producer, let alone the wholesaler and retailer.

"65.2% of a bottle of spirits is tax, leaving 34.8% to pay the supplier, staff and overheads before any profit is seen."

NOffLA released its pre-budget submission earlier this month calling on the Minister for Finance to reverse the 15% increase in excise duty imposed in Budget 2014, to restore parity to wine taxation in relation to domestic alcohol, to ban the below invoice cost selling of alcohol and regulate for out-of-state imports of alcohol to support the 1,850 independent off-licences and 5,800 jobs at serious risk of closure as a result of the past two excise duty increases on alcohol.

The National Off-Licence Association has called on Government to reverse the budgetary hike on alcohol in Budget 2014. No mention of the "health" bill. Still its nice to see one body at least on our side.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Intifada wrote: »

The minimum alcohol price is a proposal based on nothing other than greed, and surprise surprise it will hit the working class/poorest the hardest while the suits in charge won't have to worry with their €30 bottles of wine.

It would actually be easier to take if those involved just admitted as much and stopped giving us this bollocks about it being better for society.

It's not going to lower consumption rates either, all it will do is leave the less fortunate worse off every week for getting in a few cans at the weekend.

rubadub

syklops wrote: »

Still its nice to see one body at least on our side.

Lowering excise would mean more profits for the offie if the min pricing come in. If it is €30 per bottle of spirits they can still import it from other EU distributors and now avail of lower excise duty, and so make even more profit on this €30 bottle.

I say import it as I am pre-empting people saying "the wholesalers will just up the price more if excise drops and they know offies can sell for €30" -in my previous post I was saying offies can legally bypass the offical Irish distributors if they try and pull that.

So along with lower sales leading to a drop in excise, the offies want a double loss to the government, while they cream in the benefits of this min pricing nonsense.

You might see your bottles currently at €40 dropping due to an excise drop, so it will benefit the wealthier drinkers. Though if there is a drop in excise tax income expect a rise in other forms of tax.

syklops

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

It's not going to lower consumption rates either, all it will do is leave the less fortunate worse off every week for getting in a few cans at the weekend.

This. Anyone on a fixed income, and who isnt on a fixed income? Can anyone decide to earn more on a whim? Anyway, anyone on a fixed income is less well off if this comes to pass. If you are on the dole at 186 euros a week, and a bottle of vodka goes up by 10 euros you have two choices, dont buy it, or take 10 euros from the domestic budget. In many cases, that choice will be an easy one and the household budget will get smaller and their dependants, namely children will suffer. That extra 10 could be breakfast for a week so you have children going to school hungry. That its being called a "Health" bill really is quite ironic.

VinLieger

Health committe is set today to make the reccomendation minimum unit pricing be set at €1.10 per unit :eek::eek:

Was listening to Newstalk this morning and they had an iditoic doctor supporting it claiming that price increases will affect purchasing patterns while at the same time admitting we already have one of the highest priced alcohol in europe and the problem still exists but he still thinks price hikes will affect purchasing. How someone who is a doctor can't see the lack of logic in that situation scares me

dr.fuzzenstein

VinLieger wrote: »

Health committe is set today to make the reccomendation minimum unit pricing be set at €1.10 per unit :eek::eek:

Was listening to Newstalk this morning and they had an iditoic doctor supporting it claiming that price increases will affect purchasing patterns while at the same time admitting we already have one of the highest priced alcohol in europe and the problem still exists but he still thinks price hikes will affect purchasing. How someone who is a doctor can't see the lack of logic in that situation scares me

That's the problem though. You cannot trust anyone, no one pushes an agenda because they believe in it or because they want what's best for you. People only push agendas because they are required to and because it's are a vested interest. So called "Experts" are the worst. Find out who pays them and you will know what they're going to say.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Heard that guy in newstalk this morning alright. It really does him no good to be lecturing people, on minimum pricing as I'm sure he's on big money so wouldn't be buying the cheaper wine. It's us on the lower salaries who suffer while Dr. Big shot grins smugly saying it's for your own good.

dr.fuzzenstein

MY holidays will from now on be via Ferry to France and while I'm there, I'll get the year's supply of booze.
I did something similar when I still smoked, fly over to Germany, walk into the nearest Aldi and bring home 20 packs of tobacco, 40gram, at €3.60 each.
My budget for an entire year smoking was €72.

conorhal

VinLieger wrote: »

Health committe is set today to make the reccomendation minimum unit pricing be set at €1.10 per unit :eek::eek:

Was listening to Newstalk this morning and they had an iditoic doctor supporting it claiming that price increases will affect purchasing patterns while at the same time admitting we already have one of the highest priced alcohol in europe and the problem still exists but he still thinks price hikes will affect purchasing. How someone who is a doctor can't see the lack of logic in that situation scares me

Well he's right, it will effect purchasing patterns, not necessarily for the better though, instead we'll likely see more people 'pre-drinking' cheap spirits before they go out and doing massive damage to their health rather than supping a cheap pints in the sociable atmosphere in the pub.

There's a massive level of groupthink from the quangocrats that push the 'hike the price policy' that's based on the fact that it's too dificult to address the real causes of alcohol abuse which are cultural. You get the feeling that like smoking and James 'a tenner a pack will soften their cough' Reilly, that they are more interested in a punitive jab at those they disaprove of far more then they are interested in addressing the issue.

Then there's the government, cynical bastards, is there any policy they approve to 'save us from ourselves' that doesn't somehow also line their pockets?

Flex

VinLieger wrote: »

Health committe is set today to make the reccomendation minimum unit pricing be set at €1.10 per unit :eek::eek:

Was listening to Newstalk this morning and they had an iditoic doctor supporting it claiming that price increases will affect purchasing patterns while at the same time admitting we already have one of the highest priced alcohol in europe and the problem still exists but he still thinks price hikes will affect purchasing. How someone who is a doctor can't see the lack of logic in that situation scares me

€1.10 is mad. Just doing quick sums

• Tray of 24 cans of Heineken 4.3% will be €51.60
• 700ml bottle of Jameson will be €30.80
• 13.5% bottle of wine will be €11.15

Given the fact Scotland were aiming for 50p per unit and England had suggested a potential 45p, I imagine the North will be in that region meaning there'll be an even greater gap between prices. Im going to make it my business to spend even less in Irish bars going forward, thankfully a Wetherspoons is opening nearby shortly

dr.fuzzenstein

It's galling, it just means you don't have to compete in Ireland, just form a pressure group and start whingeing at your local TD and your business will be safe through protectionist measures.
I got a pint of beer and a glass of red wine in a pub in Ennis. It cost damn near €12. Why is the pub trade dying? Ghee, I don't know...

Streetwalker

Haven't crossed the door of my local in over 7 years and wont be in the near to distant future either. Even with the euro sterling gap I buy my booze from a guy who runs his van up north once a week and brings it back full to the brim with drink. Will be doing the annual trip camping to France next month with the family and the trailer will be piled high with wine for the year on the return.

Easy for people on high salaries to preach to the "little guy" about pricing.

syklops

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's galling, it just means you don't have to compete in Ireland, just form a pressure group and start whingeing at your local TD and your business will be safe through protectionist measures.
I got a pint of beer and a glass of red wine in a pub in Ennis. It cost damn near €12. Why is the pub trade dying? Ghee, I don't know...

I got a breakfast consisting of three eggs and four sausages yesterday plus a pint of the black stuff in galway yesterday which came to 11.95. A pack of eight Denny sausages is 2 euro in spar and a box of eggs is 1.50. So the raw ingredients were less than 2 euros. Somehow the labour and overheads brought it up to 7.95.

I'm in the wrong business.

I'll be really annoyed if this bill goes through because it'll mean my yearly expenditure on booze will make the water charges look like a drop in the ocean.

Caliden

VinLieger wrote: »

Health committe is set today to make the reccomendation minimum unit pricing be set at €1.10 per unit :eek::eek:

Was listening to Newstalk this morning and they had an iditoic doctor supporting it claiming that price increases will affect purchasing patterns while at the same time admitting we already have one of the highest priced alcohol in europe and the problem still exists but he still thinks price hikes will affect purchasing. How someone who is a doctor can't see the lack of logic in that situation scares me

We will still have to wait for the ruling from the European high court on the minimum pricing Scotland is trying to bring in.

If it does become 1.10 a unit, people will be driving north for their booze or even purchase it online and get it delivered.

Geuze

VinLieger wrote: »

Health committe is set today to make the reccomendation minimum unit pricing be set at €1.10 per unit :eek::eek:

1.10 euro per Irish unit or per UK unit of alcohol?

kylith

Caliden wrote: »

We will still have to wait for the ruling from the European high court on the minimum pricing Scotland is trying to bring in.

If it does become 1.10 a unit, people will be driving north for their booze or even purchase it online and get it delivered.

Ha, and then we'll have a bill to set up checkpoints near the border, and on ferries, to charge excise on the booze people bring back from abroad.