The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

Long Gone

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

The strategy is clearly to price the proletariat out of the alcohol market.

Indeed, but it is the wrong strategy - They should keep the wage slaves happy and compliant by at least letting them have access to affordable booze as an escape from their miserable existence.

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

In this era of austerity we clearly cannot afford ordinary working people going out and enjoying themselves while we owe our troika benefactors money. I expect this to be implemented shortly and we can then send Noonan over to Greece to explain how they now need to follow our good example.

They probably think that this will increase revenue from alcohol but it will have the opposite effect as people will avoid the pubs even more and get their booze from runs to Northern Ireland which is governed by grown ups and alcohol can be bought in the shops at sane prices - Three boxes each containing 24 550ml cans of Carling 5% for 24 quid the lot last time I checked.

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Thankfully this will have virtually no impact on middle/upper income people who can continue to skull a bottle or two of decent vino at home each night.

That's not the point. I could still afford to skull as many pints as I liked even at the suggested prices but I'm not prepared to be ripped off ! !

Simon2015

Long Gone wrote: »

I was charged well over €7 for a pint in The Oliver St. John Gogarty in Temple Bar last time I was home - It appears that they put the prices up to an even more extortionate level after 11 PM or something. Realising that I was one of the few (if not the only) Irish customers he had in the bar the barman actually apologised to me for being forced by the management to charge me so much.... Never again !

7 Euro for a pint is daylight robbery! its amazing how that pub doesn't go out of business.

dr.fuzzenstein

Faith+1 wrote: »

That's amazing! 72 quid for the year!

I never smoked all that much, I used to get 40g of Aldi tobacco for initially€3.40, later increased to €3.60 and that would do me the year.
You can add a few euro for papers, but that wasn't too much. I don't count the cost of the trip, since I would have gone anyway, so yes, the 70-odd is about right.
I pride myself on the fact I never paid a penny tax to the Irish government for tobacco products, save the odd Hamlet.
But this is what happens when you put prices of fags and booze at sky-high pisstake prices. At my workplace there are about 10 people I smoke, you won't see a single Irish label on any pack of cigarettes. Some of them even order them in by post.
So when the Irish government proudly trumpets that people smoke less, they are very carefully not mentioning the fact that they do smoke as much before but the level of legal and illegal "importation" of cigarettes and tobacco has skyrocketed, because anyone who actually smokes Irish bought fags gets asked "Why don't you buy in Poland, Spain, etc...?" and they say "forgot them at home".
I don't smoke anymore and of course it's not a good habit but if the Obersturmbandführer shouts at you "NEIN! Sie müssen Quitten! Arschloch!", you think to yourself "well, get fcuked you cnut". This approach is actually responsible for me smoking about 2 years longer than otherwise. Force me to do something, I do the opposite. I will make it a point to buy more booze abroad, even though I haven't done so before and I will facilitate as many people to do so as I can.

Flex

Simon2015 wrote: »

7 Euro for a pint is daylight robbery! its amazing how that pub doesn't go out of business.

No, according to Padraig Cribben of the VFI those are reasonable prices. We, the public, just have a warped view of how much drink is supposed to cost because of all the bad supermarkets selling it for 'below cost'. Or something. Oddly enough despite saying that, when asked on the Consumer Show about the huge mark ups pubs charge people his reply was that “what’s really important for the consumer is the experience [rather] than the actual prices being charged.”

These are the types of people who are being courted at everyone elses expense. I expect the next step after minimum pricing will eventually be plain packaging of cans and bottles in the off-trade with big graphic images.

Was there always this much hysteria around drinks? From speaking to friends and so on, its never come up as being the national emergency that the politicians have decided it actually is over the past 3 years or so. It just seemed to have gone from not much of an issue (or not being anywhere on my radar at least) to the point its the ultimate political point scoring issue out of nowhere? Fizzy drinks and chocolate will be the next hot topic perhaps.

darkpagandeath

I keep seeing below cost, Even in the UK when they went looking there were only like 3 obscure brands you would never of heard of selling bellow cost. It's a blatant lie them coming out with below cost. It maybe below the cost of their suppliers, that does not mean it's actually below cost in the actual market in the EZ. If you buy stuff up north they would be on about below cost here the VFI

Oh and to add don't get me started on the market now not being able to support the amount of pubs that grew from the CT. To many pubs not enough customers price hike will not fix that.

Long Gone

Simon2015 wrote: »

7 Euro for a pint is daylight robbery! its amazing how that pub doesn't go out of business.

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g186605-d523551-Reviews-Oliver_St_John_Gogarty_s_Pub-Dublin_County_Dublin.html#REVIEWS

Click on the "terrible" reviews - The only ones that are written by real pub goers and have any credibility.

They get away with it because it's a tourist trap (literally) with an endless supply of mugs attracted in by the appearance of the pub and the plastic diddly idle music...... They should be prosecuted for theft for the prices they charge the unwitting....:mad:

Typically Irish isn't it ? - This country is desperately in need of maximum price levels in pubs to protect consumers but instead the "geniuses" that we have in government (cheer lead by some blow-in if his name is anything to go by) are trying to impose minimum pricing ! - You couldn't make it up !

Long Gone

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I keep seeing below cost, Even in the UK when they went looking there were only like 3 obscure brands you would never of heard of selling bellow cost. It's a blatant lie them coming out with below cost. It maybe below the cost of their suppliers, that does not mean it's actually below cost in the actual market in the EZ. If you buy stuff up north they would be on about below cost here the VFI

Oh and to add don't get me started on the market now not being able to support the amount of pubs that grew from the CT. To many pubs not enough customers price hike will not fix that.

I agree - Next to nothing is being sold below cost. That is a complete red herring.

BTW : I know who the VHI are but what do you mean by the EZ (do you mean the EU as in European Union) and what is/was the "CT" ? ?

Ah - I just realised that the CT was the long extinct Celtic Tiger ! .:)

Capt'n Midnight

rubadub wrote: »

If an offie has stock of wine they sell at €5, then the next day when its €10 the government will only see a 93cent increase in revenue, the offie gets the remaining €4.07.

You don't get it do you ?

The govt will see NO increase in revenue.

If this measure works then lower alcohol consumption should mean a REDUCTION in revenue with increased taxes or cutbacks elsewhere to make up the shortfall.

Long Gone

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You don't get it do you ?

The govt will see NO increase in revenue.

If this measure works then lower alcohol consumption should mean a REDUCTION in revenue with increased taxes or cutbacks elsewhere to make up the shortfall.

There's no need to shout ! There will be a reduction in revenue but I don't believe that there will be a reduction in consumption. There will be a massive increase in people bringing in alcohol from the UK and the continent and in smuggling and black market sales of smuggled alcohol.

dr.fuzzenstein

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You don't get it do you ?

The govt will see NO increase in revenue.

If this measure works then lower alcohol consumption should mean a REDUCTION in revenue with increased taxes or cutbacks elsewhere to make up the shortfall.

We heard you and we're deaf now.
Quite frankly we don't give a flying fcuk whose pockets are lined due to us being ass raped for more money due to the whingeing of some pressure group who don't understand the economic mantra of "compete or die mofo", because they are incompetent fcukwits and inbred, thick-headed gombeens and gobsh*tes who couldn't run a flea circus.
We couldn't care less about the flimsy excuses, the hand-wringing, the "won't someone please think of the children" and whatever pile of horsesh*t we're being fed.
We are not children, we make our own decision and that means we'll just buy or booze abroad, drink even more and all this proud in the knowledge that the Irish government won't see a penny for most of the booze and fags being consumed here. Then they can go for a round of shoulder slapping in their ivory tower because "consumption is down". It won't be. Fcuk 'em.

elperello

Dr Varadkar is now busy spreading the gospel of neo-prohibition in Europe -

At the EPSCO Council of Ministers meeting in Luxembourg on Friday, Minister for Health Leo Varadkar called on the European Commission to initiate a European Strategy to tackle alcohol misuse.
“Ireland is pressing ahead with our first and far-reaching public health legislation on alcohol. I expect to publish the Bill this summer.
“The Irish Bill includes provisions like minimum unit pricing to eliminate very cheap alcohol from stores, structural separation in stores to reduce availability, health warning and calorie labelling on products, to give consumers better information, and restrictions and regulation of marketing, advertising and sponsorship, particularly aimed at protecting children,” Minister Varadkar said.

http://utv.ie/News/2015/06/19/Irelands-most-expensive-alcohol-prices-threaten-jobs-and-tourism-39403

Long Gone

elperello wrote: »

Dr Varadkar is now busy spreading the gospel of neo-prohibition in Europe -

At the EPSCO Council of Ministers meeting in Luxembourg on Friday, Minister for Health Leo Varadkar called on the European Commission to initiate a European Strategy to tackle alcohol misuse.
“Ireland is pressing ahead with our first and far-reaching public health legislation on alcohol. I expect to publish the Bill this summer.
“The Irish Bill includes provisions like minimum unit pricing to eliminate very cheap alcohol from stores, structural separation in stores to reduce availability, health warning and calorie labelling on products, to give consumers better information, and restrictions and regulation of marketing, advertising and sponsorship, particularly aimed at protecting children,” Minister Varadkar said.

http://utv.ie/News/2015/06/19/Irelands-most-expensive-alcohol-prices-threaten-jobs-and-tourism-39403

This is just getting embarrassing now. These proposals are absolute nonsense and for Varadkar to be trying to lecture other European countries about them is ludicrous. Structural separation in stores ? - Laughable. This will do nothing to prevent alcohol abuse but foisting this kind of ridiculous tokenism is much easier than actually doing something sensible like providing some prospect of employment or a future in Ireland to our unemployed young people - Look forward to speaking to your children on Skype with these kind of clowns pretending that they're running the country... :mad:

syklops

elperello wrote: »

Dr Varadkar is now busy spreading the gospel of neo-prohibition in Europe -

At the EPSCO Council of Ministers meeting in Luxembourg on Friday, Minister for Health Leo Varadkar called on the European Commission to initiate a European Strategy to tackle alcohol misuse.
“Ireland is pressing ahead with our first and far-reaching public health legislation on alcohol. I expect to publish the Bill this summer.
“The Irish Bill includes provisions like minimum unit pricing to eliminate very cheap alcohol from stores, structural separation in stores to reduce availability, health warning and calorie labelling on products, to give consumers better information, and restrictions and regulation of marketing, advertising and sponsorship, particularly aimed at protecting children,” Minister Varadkar said.

http://utv.ie/News/2015/06/19/Irelands-most-expensive-alcohol-prices-threaten-jobs-and-tourism-39403

Leo, really. Im hoping a few european politicans laughed either in his face or behind his back. If Ireland was France and this sort of measure was proposed the entire nation would sit down on strike. Truck drivers would block roads and cops would ignore speeding cars, and McDonalds workers would give out free cheeseburgers. In France wine is a right not a privilege. Making it universally more expensive would be unthinkable. In Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland, good quality, affordable beer is a right, not a privilege. Making it arbitrarily more expensive is also unthinkable. Beer and wine in Ireland is already several hundred percent more expensive than those countries, and the government is still thinking about it. This move, honestly makes me wish Germany was running this country. A&E may not be the disaster it is, and beer would be affordable. I was in Germany a couple of years ago and ordered a beer, a tea and a coffee in a cafe-bar type location and saw change from a fiver. Not a 20, a fiver.

rubadub

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You don't get it do you ?

The govt will see NO increase in revenue.

If this measure works then lower alcohol consumption should mean a REDUCTION in revenue with increased taxes or cutbacks elsewhere to make up the shortfall.

I do get the point, and have made it myself in this or some other thread, how there will be a cross over point where increase in vat will be offset by the loss in sales overall.

You so not seem to get my point, I was talking about the sale of a single bottle of wine, the government will see an increase in revenue, but the bulk goes to the offie which is madness. Many people are under the impression that the increase is going to the governement coffers, like it was a levy or excise tax. I can understand how people would presume this since it would be utter fucking madness to let the offie owners cream in all this extra revenue, but that is the plan.

There will be smuggling and drinking of counterfeit alcohol, which has already killed a few people in Ireland in the last year or so. Varadkar will have blood on his hands.

The proposed increase in a bottle of spirits is about €10 from the cheapest on the market, this is definitely enough of a difference to tempt people to the blackmarket.

dr.fuzzenstein

There will be a massive resurgence in illegal Poitin distilling. And smuggling of industrial alcohol. I can still remember newsclips from the 90's of Gardai pouring illegal Poitin down drains. Aside from that, those who can, will get their booze from the North/France.
And once the gangs get in on it, whatever problems we've had with gang violence in the past will pale into insignificance.
So now the state will make less money, there will be increased illegal activity, more money will have to be spent on enforcement (which is pointless anyway), hospital bills will not likely decrease, so all this noise and storming of windmills for what? So they can stand up and say "We thought of the children!"

jobbridge4life

It has disaster written all over it but who cares, Leo needs his name on some major legislation for his time in Health so its coming no matter what.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There will be a massive resurgence in illegal Poitin distilling. And smuggling of industrial alcohol. I can still remember newsclips from the 90's of Gardai pouring illegal Poitin down drains. Aside from that, those who can, will get their booze from the North/France.
And once the gangs get in on it, whatever problems we've had with gang violence in the past will pale into insignificance.
So now the state will make less money, there will be increased illegal activity, more money will have to be spent on enforcement (which is pointless anyway), hospital bills will not likely decrease, so all this noise and storming of windmills for what? So they can stand up and say "We thought of the children!"

There's already been an uptick in illegal alcohol manufacturing along the border. Once it's seen as something that people actually want to buy the obstacle of decent bottling and labelling procedures will be gone and they'll just distill whatever crap they can for sale.

rubadub

Deleted User wrote: »

just distill whatever crap they can for sale.

A lot of illegal alcohol is not even distilled by gangs, they simply rebottle industrial alcohols which are very damaging relative to ethanol. They 2 guys who died in the last year or so were drinking industrial alcohol passed off as "poitin".

I have never read a single case of a death from drinking alcohol illegal distilled from fermented substances. It is invariably industrial alcohols, either pure or mixed with drinking ethanol. Most gangs will not want to kill people, but just like other unscrupulous recreational drug sellers they will mix in substances that will give a similar high while often doing far more damage than the drug they are claiming to sell. Just like PMA/PPMA being sold as MDMA.

In fact it is safer for gangs to be storing industrial alcohols as they probably need no licence, so if caught they just shrug their shoulders.

L'Enfer du Nord

elperello wrote: »

Dr Varadkar is now busy spreading the gospel of neo-prohibition in Europe -

At the EPSCO Council of Ministers meeting in Luxembourg on Friday, Minister for Health Leo Varadkar called on the European Commission to initiate a European Strategy to tackle alcohol misuse.
“Ireland is pressing ahead with our first and far-reaching public health legislation on alcohol. I expect to publish the Bill this summer.
“The Irish Bill includes provisions like minimum unit pricing to eliminate very cheap alcohol from stores, structural separation in stores to reduce availability, health warning and calorie labelling on products, to give consumers better information, and restrictions and regulation of marketing, advertising and sponsorship, particularly aimed at protecting children,” Minister Varadkar said.

http://utv.ie/News/2015/06/19/Irelands-most-expensive-alcohol-prices-threaten-jobs-and-tourism-39403

What a joke, we live in a country where as per drink aware's campaign the government approved advice is 'Enjoy a drink sensibly'and 'Know the one that's the one too many'. i.e Telling people to enjoy a drink and telling them to decide for themselves what's to much. Essentially if you aren't regularly throwing up in your handbag you grand.

I'm not anti drinking and I don't support these price rises. I do however think moderation is a good thing and it would be know harm if at least some of the drink health warning advertising actually mentioned the health implications of heavy drinking.

syklops

If this gets signed into law, I'll be ordering a table top still from the US the same day. Probably a beer making kit as well.

rubadub

rubadub wrote: »

A lot of illegal alcohol is not even distilled by gangs, they simply rebottle industrial alcohols which very damaging relative to ethanol. They 2 guys who died in the last year or so were drinking industrial alcohol passed off as "poitin".

I have never read a single case of a death from drinking alcohol illegal distilled from fermented substances. It is invariably industrial alcohols, either pure or mixed with drinking ethanol. Most gangs will not want to kill people, but just like other unscrupulous recreational drug sellers they will mix in substances that will give a similar high while often doing far more damage than the drug they are claiming to sell. Just like PMA/PPMA being sold as MDMA.

In fact it is safer for gangs to be storing industrial alcohols as they probably need no licence, so if caught they just shrug their shoulders.

It generally is distilled up here, been more than one place raided for it. But bottling plants seem to be the easiest way to catch them.

Capt'n Midnight

rubadub wrote: »

You so not seem to get my point, I was talking about the sale of a single bottle of wine, the government will see an increase in revenue, but the bulk goes to the offie which is madness.

In theory the govt will get more VAT because of the higher price.

But in practice the higher price means people will have less to spend on other things with lower VAT rates so they may spend less on food , kids cloths , heating , take aways , the whole service and tourism industries including hairdressing and newspapers so the Govt will have reduced revenue.

elperello

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

What a joke, we live in a country where as per drink aware's campaign the government approved advice is 'Enjoy a drink sensibly'and 'Know the one that's the one too many'. i.e Telling people to enjoy a drink and telling them to decide for themselves what's to much. Essentially if you aren't regularly throwing up in your handbag you grand.

I'm not anti drinking and I don't support these price rises. I do however think moderation is a good thing and it would be know harm if at least some of the drink health warning advertising actually mentioned the health implications of heavy drinking.

Education and instilling a culture of enjoying drink in moderation is what the Government should be doing. Instead they are using this blunt instrument of Minimum Unit Pricing. If you want a case of beer for a BBQ with friends or a bottle of wine to go with Sunday lunch you will pay extra because some people can't control their drinking.

Excessive drinking can only sensibly be addressed at the point of consumption not the point of purchase

hatrickpatrick

macnug wrote: »

Oh you can of course its just not as nice.
If you want to make really cheap alcohol and not too fused about the taste you could just make a simple wash from sugar, water, yeast and nutrients and flavour it with miwadi or something.

I was assuming that using concentrated apple juice would get you closer to commercial cider tastes, since commercial ciders are almost always clear rather than cloudy.

However, I've also heard that pectic enzyme is used to produce this result, in which case the original mix may indeed have been cloudy. Not too sure.

syklops

elperello wrote: »

Education and instilling a culture of enjoying drink in moderation is what the Government should be doing. Instead they are using this blunt instrument of Minimum Unit Pricing. If you want a case of beer for a BBQ with friends or a bottle of wine to go with Sunday lunch you will pay extra because some people can't control their drinking.

Excessive drinking can only sensibly be addressed at the point of consumption not the point of purchase

Ive spoken before about booze in the Czech Republic being cheap, as in cheap to the point of cheap still having its own definition. Not "cheap" alcohol which this bill is trying to do away with, when it is anything but cheap already.

Anyway, despite 24 hour availability of alcohol (on the way to work the kiosk which sold the bus tickets also sold single shots of vodka in tubs similar to yogurt pots, for about 50cents), despite the high availability and low cost, there was one main thing which prevented me getting drunk and disorderly. I got drunk lots of times, I staggered in in the wee hours, or sometimes at dawn and a few times mid morning, but when drunk, I kept my head down, I wasnt a nuisance to anyone, I wasnt loud or obnoxious. All for one reason. Czech drunk tanks are a lot less cosy than the irish equivalent. This coupled with visible police presence, and they having a policy of removing anyone who is being bothersome to other people, was a good incentive for me to behave. Its really as simple as that. Being drunk and disorderly is actually a crime in this state and its one of the least enforced laws we have.

If a few people woke up on a concrete floor, with a bucket beside them and were given a fine of 100 euro for being drunk and wasting police time, I think people would cop on very quickly. Likewise licensing hours. If they changed it to 24 hours a few people would go mad and have pints with their breakfast, and then they'd get fired for being drunk on the job and most of them would grow up and it wouldnt be an issue any more.

Long Gone

syklops wrote: »

If this gets signed into law, I'll be ordering a table top still from the US the same day. Probably a beer making kit as well.

I'll lose whatever little respect I still have for the general population of this country if they stand for some blow-in foisting upon them a piece of fascist, non-democratic (in that there is now way a majority of people would support this measure) legislation which means that a wage slave can't even afford a few pints after a hard's work....:mad:

senordingdong

BenHK wrote: »

Is anyone old enough to remember the taxi industry back in the day? If . Thank Christ it was deregulated. No problems anymore....you want a taxi? Well, hey....just your luck there are 100 people willing to drive you to wherever you want to go.....isn't that a novel idea?!

The same with the publicans.

Something else worth noting on that point is the price fixing frog taxi drivers.
Rather than competing with one another for fares, they had the fare fixed.
None of them seem to be doing well out of it.

Sounds familiar alright

Beefy78

Long Gone wrote: »

I was charged well over €7 for a pint in The Oliver St. John Gogarty in Temple Bar last time I was home - It appears that they put the prices up to an even more extortionate level after 11 PM or something. Realising that I was one of the few (if not the only) Irish customers he had in the bar the barman actually apologised to me for being forced by the management to charge me so much.... Never again !

Simon2015 wrote: »

7 Euro for a pint is daylight robbery! its amazing how that pub doesn't go out of business.

Talking about the pubs in Temple Bar in this thread doesn't do any good. They are expensive but they're also rammed each and every night with punters having the time of their life.

They get full despite the prices partly because of the location but also because of the service that they provide (and incidently I don't think Temple Bar actually is overpriced in comparison with tourist areas in most other countries but again it is a completely unrelated issue to this one).

It's actually the opposite to the cause of the problem that this proposed legislation is designed to fix. The problem is failing pubs who are unwilling or unable to get people through the door and their masterplan to try to change that by pricing off-licenses out of being competition.

syklops

Long Gone wrote: »

I'll lose whatever little respect I still have for the general population of this country if they stand for some blow-in foisting upon them a piece of fascist, non-democratic (in that there is now way a majority of people would support this measure) legislation which means that a wage slave can't even afford a few pints after a hard's work....:mad:

The other thing that will happen if it does get signed in will be I, a supporter of Fine Gael for many years will never vote for them again. As I said before are they trying to win some kind of un-popularity contest?

syklops

Beefy78 wrote: »

Talking about the pubs in Temple Bar in this thread doesn't do any good. They are expensive but they're also rammed each and every night with punters having the time of their life.

They get full despite the prices partly because of the location but also because of the service that they provide (and incidently I don't think Temple Bar actually is overpriced in comparison with tourist areas in most other countries but again it is a completely unrelated issue to this one).

It's actually the opposite to the cause of the problem that this proposed legislation is designed to fix. The problem is failing pubs who are unwilling or unable to get people through the door and their masterplan to try to change that by pricing off-licenses out of being competition.

I was charged $12 for a beer in california last week, which with the current exchange rate is nearly ten euros. 7 euros for a tourist trap isnt that bad. Prague Airport is 6. Its temple bar. Do any/many irish people actually frequent it for a few pints?

As you say though, the issue isnt pub prices.