The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

rubadub

Banjo String wrote: »

You'd imagine the pub and off license are using the same supplier, if not, why not.

Many don't. Why? seemingly because they are lazy bastards who let themselves be walked all over by the brewers and just figure "well the pub next door is the same, so we are all in the same boat", like lazy tradesmen who do not try and find good prices for parts. Also by going to the proper distributors they can get other kickbacks, like free kegs (heineken got in trouble over this recently) or have their bottles collected.

I know a pub that buys it's heineken in tesco & centra, as its far cheaper than the official distributors. I remember getting a "loan" of a bottle of vodka from a pub and when we returned it the manager said he pays more than we did.

Some of these publicans probably are that stupid that they think they get charged the same price. I believe the majority are not that stupid and are thinking the public are foolish enough to believe their lies about below cost selling being so rife -with no proof to back it up.

There is no way the centra near me is practising the below cost selling model, they have heineken 20x330ml for €15, nobody is doing a weekly shop while buying it.

hatrickpatrick

syklops wrote: »

That link says the government intends to continue with its plans to implement the bill. So how is that good news?

Because they almost certainly won't be allowed to.

hatrickpatrick

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The beauty of a min price (from their pov) is that it only impacts the offlicense/supermarket trade.

Indeed, and this is precisely why I don't think the EU will let them do it. If that's their argument against increasing taxation, it's up front admitting to protectionism. The EU won't like that at all.

hatrickpatrick

humanji wrote: »

MOD: Threads merged.

Were there two threads? O_o

hatrickpatrick

custard gannet wrote: »

The headline is positive, yet the finer points of the ruling seem to side with the government. From what I can see they can't order every off licence to sell at a minimum cost per unit, but can increase taxes which would force the off licences to increase their pricing to maintain their profit.

They've always been able to do that if they wanted to, but they know that doing so would hammer more nails into the already beleaguered tourism sector's coffin. I highly doubt they'll consider that as an option.

KungPao

Sorry if I missed this, but would such a minimum price/tax increase affect homebrew beer kits and the like?

I make some of my own, it's not great but at the moment I can get around 40 cans worth for less than 20 big ones all in. If it does I'll just switch to making cheap wine made from Lidl grape juice and sugar (is not bad actually)...alcohol is way overpriced as it is in Ireland.

rubadub

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

They've always been able to do that if they wanted to, but they know that doing so would hammer more nails into the already beleaguered tourism sector's coffin. I highly doubt they'll consider that as an option.

They mightn't like it but it was said

"Minister for Health Leo Varadkar said he was he encouraged by aspects of the ruling that indicated minimum pricing may be compatible with EU law if it could be shown to be more effective than other measures."

I cannot see how they could argue minimum pricing would be better than an excise increase, with the sole goal of reducing heavy drinking. As I said already an excise increase would hit both wealthy and poor drinkers. If they are daying poorer people will be effected then it should follow what wealthier ones will also be put off. So it should be more effective in its alleged goal.

The EU should have no problem with an excise increase, as no suppliers are effected. Like if they had a €60,000 min price introduced on cars it would kill those set up to make cheap ones.

KungPao wrote: »

Sorry if I missed this, but would such a minimum price/tax increase affect homebrew beer kits and the like?

It will not effect it.

dr.fuzzenstein

^^^
Don't see how it could affect home brew kits.
Wouldn't see it as being beyond the Irish government to make them illegal out of sheer spite, though...

hatrickpatrick

rubadub wrote: »

They mightn't like it but it was said

"Minister for Health Leo Varadkar said he was he encouraged by aspects of the ruling that indicated minimum pricing may be compatible with EU law if it could be shown to be more effective than other measures."

I cannot see how they could argue minimum pricing would be better than an excise increase, with the sole goal of reducing heavy drinking. As I said already an excise increase would hit both wealthy and poor drinkers. If they are daying poorer people will be effected then it should follow what wealthier ones will also be put off. So it should be more effective in its alleged goal.

The EU should have no problem with an excise increase, as no suppliers are effected. Like if they had a €60,000 min price introduced on cars it would kill those set up to make cheap ones.

I agree, but I don't think the Irish government will increase excise for fear of further damaging the pub industry, so I'd imagine that if this ruling is upheld, the whole idea of increasing drink prices to control people's consumption is out the window altogether.

VinLieger

KungPao wrote: »

Sorry if I missed this, but would such a minimum price/tax increase affect homebrew beer kits and the like?

I make some of my own, it's not great but at the moment I can get around 40 cans worth for less than 20 big ones all in. If it does I'll just switch to making cheap wine made from Lidl grape juice and sugar (is not bad actually)...alcohol is way overpriced as it is in Ireland.

For the time being it doesn't but you can bet if home brewing becomes more popular they will try to tax it or make it illegal somehow.

With my kit I can make 30 bottles of perfectly drinkable wine in 7 days that cost about a euro a bottle

DEFTLEFTHAND

KungPao wrote: »

Sorry if I missed this, but would such a minimum price/tax increase affect homebrew beer kits and the like?

I make some of my own, it's not great but at the moment I can get around 40 cans worth for less than 20 big ones all in. If it does I'll just switch to making cheap wine made from Lidl grape juice and sugar (is not bad actually)...alcohol is way overpriced as it is in Ireland.

That's a nice little operation you've got for yourself, I'm tempted to get in to home brewing myself. Is it a difficult skill to pick up? I don't want to kill myself or any family members with my concoctions.

custard gannet

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

They've always been able to do that if they wanted to, but they know that doing so would hammer more nails into the already beleaguered tourism sector's coffin. I highly doubt they'll consider that as an option.

Thanks. The times article did a rubbish job of explaining how this was shot down, that despite what the EU said on taxes it would be anti competitive for the government to increase tax on off sales but not on pub sales it would seem.

So is Varadkar and the bint from the Buzz Killington pressure group just spouting hot air claiming the plan is still workable, unwilling to concede their plan is gone to tits? Or do they have a viable alternative up their sleeve?

rubadub

VinLieger wrote: »

will try to tax it or make it illegal somehow.

It would be difficult to tax as the kits are essentially just sugar rich syrups from fruit/vegetable/grain. You can go into lidl and buy bread yeast and apple juice and make cider.

If anything it should get cheaper as the homebrew shops would have more business. It is not as relatively cheap as it was years ago compared to off licence prices.

I brewed 20+years ago, back then the cheapest cans were typically £1 or €1.27, homebrew kits were much cheaper back then. Cheaper cans have actually gotten cheaper over the years.

Herb Powell

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

That's a nice little operation you've got for yourself, I'm tempted to get in to home brewing myself. Is it a difficult skill to pick up? I don't want to kill myself or any family members with my concoctions.

It's literally safer than cooking chicken, and about as difficult. Just requires more patience. Do it!

VinLieger

custard gannet wrote: »

So is Varadkar and the bint from the Buzz Killington pressure group just spouting hot air claiming the plan is still workable

It's also the vintners no matter how much it's denied they are heavily pushing for this due to their refusal to try any forms of business innovation

rubadub

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

That's a nice little operation you've got for yourself, I'm tempted to get in to home brewing myself. Is it a difficult skill to pick up? I don't want to kill myself or any family members with my concoctions.

It can be done with minimal equipment, you can literally just put bread yeast in a carton of apple juice. It would be better if you got proper cider yeast though.

homebrew forum here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1353

LordSutch

€2 for a can of beer.
€10 for a bottle of wine.
€20 for a bottle of whiskey.

Anyone remember the queues goimg up North twenty or thirty years ago for cheap petrol/booze?

syklops

LordSutch wrote: »

€2 for a can of beer.
€10 for a bottle of wine.
€20 for a bottle of whiskey.

Anyone remember the queues goimg up North twenty or thirty years ago for cheap petrol/booze?

The price for whiskey has been suggested at closer to 50 than 20. Most decent ones are more than 20 now. RRP for Jameson standard blend is 29.99

LordSutch

I should have said €20 min . . .

rubadub

I heard €30 for a 700ml of 37.5% spirits. €20 is too low, there are approx 12 cans of regular beer in a bottle.

Some of the cheaper own brand spirits are the only thing I do believe are sold below cost.

A €20 branded bottle of whiskey would be in bargain alerts.

Banjo String

rubadub wrote: »

I heard €30 for a 700ml of 37.5% spirits. €20 is too low, there are approx 12 cans of regular beer in a bottle.

Some of the cheaper own brand spirits are the only thing I do believe are sold below cost.

A €20 branded bottle of whiskey would be in bargain alerts.

Clarke's Bourbon (reminds me in Jim Beam) 700no bottle @ 40% for (from memory) 13 or 14€ from Aldi is very very drinkable, and not a bad price at all.

I recommend it, few ice cubes and a dawn of coke zero, if you like a good Bourbon.

The Rape of Lucretia

When does the VFI actually expect the pub trade to die and the last pub to close ?

ArmaniJeanss

Banjo String wrote: »

Clarke's Bourbon (reminds me in Jim Beam) 700no bottle @ 40% for (from memory) 13 or 14€ from Aldi is very very drinkable, and not a bad price at all.

I recommend it, few ice cubes and a dawn of coke zero, if you like a good Bourbon.

Excise Duty is €42.57 per litre of actual alcohol. Size of bottle .7, alcohol 40% of that.
So the maths is .7 * .4 * 42.57 = €11.91 on excise alone.
If selling at €14 the VAT (23%) would be €2.61. So the total due to the revenue would be €14.52.
So either that price is a fond memory prebudget or else they are selling it well below cost.

listermint

VinLieger wrote: »

It's also the vintners no matter how much it's denied they are heavily pushing for this due to their refusal to try any forms of business innovation

If rural pubs are having problems it's because rural People don't have jobs all the minimum pricing in the world won't get jobs back into these areas and the pubs would close anyway.

VFI are deluded

Banjo String

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Excise Duty is €42.57 per litre of actual alcohol. Size of bottle .7, alcohol 40% of that.
So the maths is .7 * .4 * 42.57 = €11.91 on excise alone.
If selling at €14 the VAT (23%) would be €2.61. So the total due to the revenue would be €14.52.
So either that price is a fond memory prebudget or else they are selling it well below cost.

I'm due a new bottle for the press, probably get it this evening, so I'll update.

P.s., just when I see my post quoted, I realise how God awful predictive text can be. :P

VinLieger

listermint wrote: »

If rural pubs are having problems it's because rural People don't have jobs all the minimum pricing in the world won't get jobs back into these areas and the pubs would close anyway.

VFI are deluded

During the recession pubs only stopped increasing prices, nothing saw a reduction. Considering pretty much every other services industry in the country had to reduces prices their attitude of they were doing their customers a favour by saying they wouldn't raise prices for the time being proves how deluded they are

KungPao

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

That's a nice little operation you've got for yourself, I'm tempted to get in to home brewing myself. Is it a difficult skill to pick up? I don't want to kill myself or any family members with my concoctions.

Most important thing is sanitation/airlocks (bacteria can quickly destroy a brew) and patience really. The ability to read is essential for following steps and recipes!

I am just a beginner doing it on the cheap, beer results have been average so far but I think it's the beer kit I got, read bad reviews after I bought it.

I made some surprisingly okay wine with just Spar Apple juice, loads of sugar and some champagne yeast (you need proper brewing yeast, not the stuff for making bread rolls!).

It's no 1886 Chateau Latour but better than some cheap wine I've bought.

Good hobby overall.

Spanish Eyes

If this goes through I am defo going on a Booze Crooze to Roscoff or Cherbourg.

Definitely, the hell with them.

My brother has a VW caddy van and is always asking me to do it for a lark. Now I will. Definitely. Did I say definitely, I will?

Capt'n Midnight

Just a reminder of why minimum price doesn't work the way some people think it would. At least with increasing excise the gov't would have income for health spending.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7201218.stm

Middle class men and women are drinking more than those lower down the socio-economic scale, according to figures from the Office of National Statistics.

Men and women with managerial jobs were the most likely to have drunk alcohol in the previous week, says the survey.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/behindtheheadlines/news/2015-08-24-many-white-english-and-irish-pensioners-drinking-to-excess/

Behind The Headlines - Health News from NHS Choices
Many white English and Irish pensioners 'drinking to excess'

"One in five people over 65 who drink is consuming an "unsafe" level of alcohol, say researchers," BBC News reports. Their research also found that "unsafe drinking was far more common among the white British and Irish population".

The study involved nearly 28,000 older adults (aged 65 and over) living in the Lambeth area of London. It found that people were more likely to drink alcohol above safe limits if they were male, aged closer to 65, of Irish ethnicity and higher socioeconomic status.

Becuse minimum pricing will affect those of a higher socioeconomic status :rolleyes:

VinLieger

Legislation is gonna be published today, no figures yet but the rumours are 7-8 euro minimum for a bottle of wine and 2 euro for a can of beer, the parties over thanks to Leo.