Are We Paying Too Much for Rock and Metal

Motley Crue

I made a similar posting about this in 'Gigs and Events' but I think it's worth having a discussion about this here, because it seems that a lot of Rock and Metal events are bearing the biggest brunts of the huge jump in cost over the last 15 years of gigging.

First, take the example of 5 top rate acts performing in Ireland over 1990/92

1990 Iron Maiden, Point Depot - £12.50
1991 AC/DC, Point Depot - £15.50
1992 Guns N Roses, Slane - £22.75
1992 Metallica, Point Depot - £15.50
1992 Faith No More, Point Depot - £13.50

Incredible if you make comparisons with those bands as to what we paid on their last tour here - some of these figures do not allow for booking fee

(All conversions were made from Euro to Irish Pound using XE.com)

2010 Iron Maiden, 02 Arena - £46.00/59.50Euro (for Standing)
2009 AC/DC, 02 Arena - £53.00/67.70Euro
2010 Guns N Roses, 02 Arena - £55.00/70Euro (for Standing)
2009 Metallica, Marley Park - £60.00/76.50Euro
2009 Faith No More, Olympia Theatre - £43.00/55Euro

To attend those 5 gigs in 2009/10 would have cost £257IEP or 328 Euro, some of those figures fail to include "booking fee" or "admin charge" or "Internet transaction charge" and that's also before you mount on the charges for travel, parking, maybe food or merchandise - that's if you're lucky enough to get tickets when they go on sale, some of us aren't, and may have to turn to touts to get a ticket for a gig we may have been able to afford if it hadn't been at the wrong end of the paying month.

This is compared with a total charge to the same 5 bands over the period 1990/92 of £79.75IEP or 101Euro and that's not even to mention that Guns N' Roses caused the amount of trouble they did.

I feel very upset by this and feel, as a music fan, that Irish music lovers are being persecuted. An argument many people have raised is that the standard of concerts (their organisation) is a lot better then it used to be. Could people here who attended concerts in the late 80's and early 90's in Ireland please comment on how they feel things may have been better or worse in terms of venue, organisation and perhaps even security and administration? Are we simply becoming a nation willing to accept a price rise in everything and afraid to really step out of the box and do anything about it?

Max Power1

Tickets to everything have jumped in the past few years.

I'd expect to part with €40-60 minimum for a well known band, and maybe 1.5 times that for some of the "legendary" bands like 'tallica or Maiden.

Somnus

Yeah big name band prices are ridiculous. almost €80 for Metallica is too much to me.

I'm glad most of my gigs are in tiny venues where it's about €20 in

Well I suppose the average lately is around €40ish for the likes of Opeth,Porcupine Tree etc. Great intimate gigs so well worth the money

AaronEnnis

Its fairly simple. Agencies know that these gigs will attract thousands of punters, so they hike up the price...people still go, dont they? Its absolutely shag all to do with 'persecution', its just how these promotion companies make their money. Also, Ireland isnt exactly the most feasible of countries to get to, if youre on a tour, with equipment.

Another reason for the price increase is the amount of units those bands have sold since 91/92 - astronomical. Promotion companies aren't exactly out for the preservation of music fan's feelings, they aim to make money with bands like Maiden and Metallica, and do so without fail.

Save your money and go to a DME/Distortion Project/Sarlacc Promotions/Bad Reputation gig. Great bands, and a lot cheaper.

GLaDOS

Well in 2010 I spent €30 going to Feeder, €30 on Porcupine Tree and €22 on God is an Astronaut. All well affordable and worth the ticket price. Also considering the amount of illegal downloading these days, it's fair enough that they need to make money in other ways.

Prices for Rush in May are a bit steep but once in a lifetime oppotunity to see them in Ireland I suppose.

Max Power1

Another way of looking at it is, is it worth say €40 to see Airbourne, for example.

I think it is, and I actually dont think ticket prices are too steep in ireland.

Angron

Most I pay for gigs I go to is about €35, often in the €20-€30 range. Death metal ftw.

Motley Crue

I can understand where you're all coming from but, with respect, a lot of the people here are considered to have a deeper understanding of the music scene then the casual fan - who enjoys the band and listens to their music but might not spend time to come online here and discuss tracklisting and song composition or just the development of their music over time - I mean, is the casual fan (along with the rest of us) not being fleeced because to me it seems that if you raise the price of a gig three or four times then...

1. You do it because their stage production costs more and they need to hire a bigger crew to achieve this etc
2. You do it because they now command a bigger audience, bigger venue then they might have before
3. You do it because costs increase everywhere
4. You want to make up for shortfall in other area's to a certain extent

I think that Ireland is now easier to travel to then it might have been in the early 90's, the cost of travel (airline travel, ferry travel) has been forced to come down dramatically and - if I'm correct - not everyone could afford to board even a Ryanair plane in 1991 and fly to Spain for 5Euro return. In that respect the savings should be passed onto the consumer and therefore it should be easier to get to Ireland, provided a fanbase is here, and perform a show on any UK or big European tour

Metallica, for example, had released TBA in 1991...when they toured here that album had sold millions already and was continuing to sell. In retrospect, no album (asides from maybe Death Magnetic) has since attracted more fans off the bat to the band since TBA. So, with that being said, Metallica's popularity has grown only on the basis of new fans discovering their back catalogue. As younger fans take the place of the older fans who for one reason or another can no longer make their concerts.

Metallica and Iron Maiden invest thousands each year into their productions, but do we really need them, will it change the fact that the band are playing the music we want to hear - for me, I'd prefer a stripped down show, and I think that if it meant prices went down other people might welcome less lasers and fancy backdrops too. Metallica played Japan recently and couldn't fit in an 'In The Round' so they just played a standard concert on a stage...production costs can be avoided in an effort to bring costs down.

Malice

What annoys me no end is not so much the price of the gigs but the location. If you don't live in Dublin then you also have to factor in the monetary and time cost of getting there for a gig. To combat that, what I have done a few times is combine the gig with a weekend away.

lord lucan

I blame the promoters and ticket agents tbh. The way i see it,promoters keep benchmarking ticket prices for gigs. Say for example,Metallica are due to play here in 2003. Promoter decides to set the ticket price at €60 and see what happens. It sells out(hypothetically),so the promoter uses that as the benchmark for future shows for artists of that calibre. A few years down the line it's upped to €70 or €80. Makes no odds what size stage show is being brought over imo,even if Maiden ditched all their onstage paraphernalia and Metallica performed with a couple of roadies shining torches on them on a bit of 4x4 it'd still cost the same.

What really gets me wound up is ticketbastard. When i started gigging at the start of the nineties i always had to go into town to physically buy a ticket,usually from tommy in Sound Cellar. You understood there may have been a charge on the ticket as it was sold from a store that had to pay people to serve you. Roll forward to 2011,i can now print off the ticket at home which means no-one from ticketmaster has to do anything,all automated. Yet,i'm paying far more in "service" charges than ever before with less to do on the sellers end.:mad:

Motley Crue

lord lucan wrote: »

What really gets me wound up is ticketbastard. When i started gigging at the start of the nineties i always had to go into town to physically buy a ticket,usually from tommy in Sound Cellar. You understood there may have been a charge on the ticket as it was sold from a store that had to pay people to serve you.

Roll forward to 2011,i can now print off the ticket at home which means no-one from ticketmaster has to do anything,all automated. Yet,i'm paying far more in "service" charges than ever before with less to do on the sellers end.:mad:

Another valid point - this has always annoyed me - even though I prefer visiting an outlet where possible to get a physical ticket or ordering the tickets online and asking them to be sent via post (sometimes box office collections, at smaller venues, mean no physical ticket...which, to me, sucks)

Passenger

DME manage to bring over plenty of established Metal acts usually charging less than 30euro a ticket.

As for the big arena names, prices for those shows abroad are usually similar and many are only marginally cheaper than a typical act performing in Ireland in the O2 for example. Artists are increasing their performance fees for various extenuating reasons and promoters and ticket agents are having their cake and eating it too.

There are many factors for the gradual increase in gig ticket prices but for Metal fans in Ireland you can't really complain too much as prices are reasonably good.

senordingdong

We're being fleeced on ticket prices here...just like everything else in the country.

Furthermore, the price can sometimes be affected by the artists own price tag....and alas, there is little or no competition in this country, so you can't vote with your feet, or you could miss your favourite band.

chin_grin

senordingdong wrote: »

So you can't vote with your feet, or you could miss your favourite band.

Simple as that really. You'd pay anything to see your favourite band as they wouldn't bother coming back if they didn't get the turnout.

People need to stop paying these prices! At least send a message to the likes of ticketb@stard that we're fed up.

But 'tis the ultimate Catch 22.

senordingdong

chin_grin wrote: »

Simple as that really. You'd pay anything to see your favourite band as they wouldn't bother coming back if they didn't get the turnout.

People need to stop paying these prices! At least send a message to the likes of ticketb@stard that we're fed up.

But 'tis the ultimate Catch 22.

Why would ticketmaster even entertain your message?

The funny thing is that I got to see my favourite band in May (Kiss) and they put on an extraordinarily expensive show, and they are wealthy/established enough to demand a high price tag...but it was only fifty quid.

There are countless explanations for this though none are official.

jenizzle

One issue I have is the difference between going to see a gig in, say, Belfast compared to here. It actually works out cheaper sometimes to go see a band in the UK instead of Dublin (for example, a ticket to Pearl Jam cost €20 less in Belfast than it did in Dublin).

I'm lucky enough to live in Dublin so it's no bother to me to go pay €30 for a gig, and that's literally the only cost assuming I'm not out on the tear. I won't pay €30 for a band I don't know very well, but I would pay €20. That's all relative to each person though.

senordingdong

jenizzle wrote: »

One issue I have is the difference between going to see a gig in, say, Belfast compared to here. It actually works out cheaper sometimes to go see a band in the UK instead of Dublin (for example, a ticket to Pearl Jam cost €20 less in Belfast than it did in Dublin).

I'm lucky enough to live in Dublin so it's no bother to me to go pay €30 for a gig, and that's literally the only cost assuming I'm not out on the tear. I won't pay €30 for a band I don't know very well, but I would pay €20. That's all relative to each person though.

Yep, so imagine someone living near the border.
Travel to Dublin or to Belfast???

bigbadcon

I generally don't mind paying big prices for gigs as I have a tendency to 'acquire' most bands albums anyway so fair is fair.

GrizzlyMan

Most Gigs I attend are pretty cheap as they are not well known bands on a commercial scale mostly Black/death metal, so i never feel the pinch, until I get to the Bar that is

senordingdong

bigbadcon wrote: »

I generally don't mind paying big prices for gigs as I have a tendency to 'acquire' most bands albums anyway so fair is fair.

Haha, brilliant logic.

Except the band probably don't get as much of the ticket price as you think.

Patricide

senordingdong wrote: »

Haha, brilliant logic.

Except the band probably don't get as much of the ticket price as you think.

Bands make MUCH more money from touring and merchandise than CD sales.

Riddle101

Motley Crue wrote: »

I made a similar posting about this in 'Gigs and Events' but I think it's worth having a discussion about this here, because it seems that a lot of Rock and Metal events are bearing the biggest brunts of the huge jump in cost over the last 15 years of gigging.

First, take the example of 5 top rate acts performing in Ireland over 1990/92

1990 Iron Maiden, Point Depot - £12.50
1991 AC/DC, Point Depot - £15.50
1992 Guns N Roses, Slane - £22.75
1992 Metallica, Point Depot - £15.50
1992 Faith No More, Point Depot - £13.50

Incredible if you make comparisons with those bands as to what we paid on their last tour here - some of these figures do not allow for booking fee

(All conversions were made from Euro to Irish Pound using XE.com)

2010 Iron Maiden, 02 Arena - £46.00/59.50Euro (for Standing)
2009 AC/DC, 02 Arena - £53.00/67.70Euro
2010 Guns N Roses, 02 Arena - £55.00/70Euro (for Standing)
2009 Metallica, Marley Park - £60.00/76.50Euro
2009 Faith No More, Olympia Theatre - £43.00/55Euro

To attend those 5 gigs in 2009/10 would have cost £257IEP or 328 Euro, some of those figures fail to include "booking fee" or "admin charge" or "Internet transaction charge" and that's also before you mount on the charges for travel, parking, maybe food or merchandise - that's if you're lucky enough to get tickets when they go on sale, some of us aren't, and may have to turn to touts to get a ticket for a gig we may have been able to afford if it hadn't been at the wrong end of the paying month.

This is compared with a total charge to the same 5 bands over the period 1990/92 of £79.75IEP or 101Euro and that's not even to mention that Guns N' Roses caused the amount of trouble they did.

I feel very upset by this and feel, as a music fan, that Irish music lovers are being persecuted. An argument many people have raised is that the standard of concerts (their organisation) is a lot better then it used to be. Could people here who attended concerts in the late 80's and early 90's in Ireland please comment on how they feel things may have been better or worse in terms of venue, organisation and perhaps even security and administration? Are we simply becoming a nation willing to accept a price rise in everything and afraid to really step out of the box and do anything about it?

I reckon it's more to do with the economy, then ticket prices rising. All the bands listed on the top, were playing gigs here around the early 90's. Ireland's economy at the time was only really starting to build up, but even more so, things were pretty cheap here on the account that the economy. It wasn't until 1995 that the Celtic Tiger would have started to boom. Nowadays, even though Ireland is in a recession right now. The country is a lot more richer and people are more well off so maybe that might be the reason why ticket prices have risen so much over the last 20 years.

But you know, i'd love it if tickets were as cheap now as they were back then. I'd be going to a lot more concerts.

MickShamrock

Yes, we're been screwed.

Patricide

Ok here goes a long post in explaining the deal with high concert prices in Ireland.

1.Were an Island in the middle of the Atlantic ocean where its possible only to do a maximum of 2 real shows(Belfast and Dublin).
This makes Ireland a logistics nightmare. Its also the reasons why a lot of bands don't tour Ireland that often. The record companies chose where the bands go and this is based mainly on popularity gauged by C.D. sales and downloads. There are naturally a few more concerns like if a promoter is willing to fork out a load of cash based on previous concert attendance. Remember that in mainland Europe they can play a LOT of shows without having to fly all the gear around. In the UK they would at the very least get 10 locations for a possible show(if there was demand). More shows cover logistics costs and lowers ticket prices there. Less shows means more logistics costs and makes it more expensive here.

2. These prices just factor in the Pound to Euro conversion - They don't cover inflation.
Naturally this is going to make a huge discrepancy. Im sure when you factor in a) inflation and b) average income and cost of living back then they would be pretty close together. Minimum wage itself was 4.40 pounds(about 5.56 euro) in 2000 never mind in the 90ies.

3. New laws regarding safety,price to insure a live event rising, better equipped(and therefore more expensive) venues, bigger shows.
Like it or not all these things are driving up ticket prices.

4. Ticket master monopoly(As well as mcd and such here as promoter monopoly).
This adds to the prices aswell. How many times have you had an extra 5 euro(or more) tacked on just for ticketmaster? More competition could help lower prices also but I dont think this is going to happen any time soon.

5. At the end of the day, touring and merchandise has become a musicians main source of income.
So don't knock on the bands here(not that they have any say on ticket prices anyway). More and more bands are being shafted out of percentages on music sales. Regardless of what you think unless a band is already well established these guys could be playing 200 plus shows a year just to barely survive. Buy the tickets for there show and stop complaining .

hynesie08

Patricide wrote: »

Ok here goes a long post in explaining the deal with high concert prices in Ireland.

1.Were an Island in the middle of the Atlantic ocean where its possible only to do a maximum of 2 real shows(Belfast and Dublin).
This makes Ireland a logistics nightmare. Its also the reasons why a lot of bands don't tour Ireland that often. The record companies chose where the bands go and this is based mainly on popularity gauged by C.D. sales and downloads. There are naturally a few more concerns like if a promoter is willing to fork out a load of cash based on previous concert attendance. Remember that in mainland Europe they can play a LOT of shows without having to fly all the gear around. In the UK they would at the very least get 10 locations for a possible show(if there was demand). More shows cover logistics costs and lowers ticket prices there. Less shows means more logistics costs and makes it more expensive here.

I actually wrote a post on this the other night but my net crapped out. I once asked my business teacher about this and that was the reason he gave. Continental europe can be completely covered by road and therefore you can get a europewide insurance deal, similarly the uk (including belfast) will have enough shows to get a decent policy. unfortunately we, as an island with only one real touring option get raped on insurance. Add in the fact that transporting an entire producting over here, the cost of which can't be split over several shows and that's why we pay more than other countries for tickets.

As for are we paying to much, I don't think so. As someone else said i live right smack bang in the middle of dublin so i don't mind paying it. the way i look at it if i get a decent nights entertainment for 35-40 quid i'm happy. sure youd almost spend that on a night at the cinema. Obviously if i was paying transport hotels etc i might feel different but i don't so :P

Patricide

hynesie08 wrote: »

I actually wrote a post on this the other night but my net crapped out. I once asked my business teacher about this and that was the reason he gave. Continental europe can be completely covered by road and therefore you can get a europewide insurance deal, similarly the uk (including belfast) will have enough shows to get a decent policy. unfortunately we, as an island with only one real touring option get raped on insurance. Add in the fact that transporting an entire producting over here, the cost of which can't be split over several shows and that's why we pay more than other countries for tickets.

As for are we paying to much, I don't think so. As someone else said i live right smack bang in the middle of dublin so i don't mind paying it. the way i look at it if i get a decent nights entertainment for 35-40 quid i'm happy. sure youd almost spend that on a night at the cinema. Obviously if i was paying transport hotels etc i might feel different but i don't so :P

This happens all too often to me, especially on boards when im in the middle of writing a post. I copy it every few seconds these days if its a long post.

edhead

Patricide wrote: »

Ok here goes a long post in explaining the deal with high concert prices in Ireland.

1.Were an Island in the middle of the Atlantic ocean where its possible only to do a maximum of 2 real shows(Belfast and Dublin).
This makes Ireland a logistics nightmare. Its also the reasons why a lot of bands don't tour Ireland that often. The record companies chose where the bands go and this is based mainly on popularity gauged by C.D. sales and downloads. There are naturally a few more concerns like if a promoter is willing to fork out a load of cash based on previous concert attendance. Remember that in mainland Europe they can play a LOT of shows without having to fly all the gear around. In the UK they would at the very least get 10 locations for a possible show(if there was demand). More shows cover logistics costs and lowers ticket prices there. Less shows means more logistics costs and makes it more expensive here.

2. These prices just factor in the Pound to Euro conversion - They don't cover inflation.
Naturally this is going to make a huge discrepancy. Im sure when you factor in a) inflation and b) average income and cost of living back then they would be pretty close together. Minimum wage itself was 4.40 pounds(about 5.56 euro) in 2000 never mind in the 90ies.

3. New laws regarding safety,price to insure a live event rising, better equipped(and therefore more expensive) venues, bigger shows.
Like it or not all these things are driving up ticket prices.

4. Ticket master monopoly(As well as mcd and such here as promoter monopoly).
This adds to the prices aswell. How many times have you had an extra 5 euro(or more) tacked on just for ticketmaster? More competition could help lower prices also but I dont think this is going to happen any time soon.

5. At the end of the day, touring and merchandise has become a musicians main source of income.
So don't knock on the bands here(not that they have any say on ticket prices anyway). More and more bands are being shafted out of percentages on music sales. Regardless of what you think unless a band is already well established these guys could be playing 200 plus shows a year just to barely survive. Buy the tickets for there show and stop complaining .

Thats as good a summary as I've seen and hits it bang on.

I would just add 6 to the end of that

6. Greed

Patricide

edhead wrote: »

Thats as good a summary as I've seen and hits it bang on.

I would just add 6 to the end of that

6. Greed

Pretty much all the greed is coming from ticketmaster and the promoters. Not so much the bands or labels.

senordingdong

Patricide wrote: »

Bands make MUCH more money from touring and merchandise than CD sales.

Yeha but I'll bet the band sees less than 20% of that sixty euro per ticket.

Patricide

senordingdong wrote: »

Yeha but I'll bet the band sees less than 20% of that sixty euro per ticket.

Probably less but it is still more than they make from anything else(in the majority of cases).

Do you have the same attitude when you buy a cd, because the average for a new artist is about 3 - 5% of royalties. However they first will have to break even on the recording which can cost a LOT of cash. Due to this many new artists barely break even before their second cd. Then out of that 3-5% the artiso t has tpay there managment on average 1%, there booking agent and the list goes on.

Also to be fair everyone has to get a slice of that ticket price. The band, the manager, the promoter, the record label, the tour manager, the crew, the sound engineer, the lighting engineer, the security at the event, the bus driver, the lorry driver who brings around the set etc.

The point im trying to make here is that artists will NEVER make more than 50% of the profits on anything they release(unless they do it d.i.y.). That shouldn't deter you from supporting them at all. These people are doing a job, the same as anyone else. They don't generally have a say in the price of tickets, but they do need you to keep attending.

Motley Crue

Patricide wrote: »

Also to be fair everyone has to get a slice of that ticket price. The band, the manager, the promoter, the record label, the tour manager, the crew, the sound engineer, the lighting engineer, the security at the event, the bus driver, the lorry driver who brings around the set etc.

A point someone raised earlier was about the structure of a concert these days being more well organised to perhaps 15 or 20 years ago.

I mean, could someone here vouch for that opinion, did concerts 15 to 20 years ago have a more lacklustre feel - when you went to big events like the Phoenix Park Festival 83 or the Rolling Stones in Slane in 82 did security have less of a presence...did the event seem to lack any kind of organisation.

When I go to festivals in 2010/11 I see vans and vans of merchandise, vans and vans of food being sold at high prices, this happens from festival gigs to open air gigs to smaller indoor gigs (02 Arena has bars, concessions, merchandise etc) - was that not present at gigs years ago?

Maybe if we took half the amount of food vendors out of the big stadium gigs and the festivals and stopped charging such an extortionate price for the traders to sell their stuff then we wouldn't have to pass on those costs to the consumer?

I'm all for having security at a gig, and paying them well for a job well done, but do we need to have so many merchandisers, so many food vendors, and so many adverts and people walking around selling coke/water in the audience.

Patricide wrote: »

These people are doing a job, the same as anyone else. They don't generally have a say in the price of tickets, but they do need you to keep attending.

I for one support the idea of bands having meet and greet packages. Devildriver, for example, had a package on their last tour which gave fans the chance to meet them after the show and get a goody bag with a few picks and different things in there. It was reasonably priced and those who didn't want it weren't penalised by an inflated ticket price to make up some extra cost on their face value ticket price