Views of Irish political parties on LGBT issues

Louisevb

crayolastereo wrote: »

My life doesn't revolve around being gay. I want a job, a proper education and health service. Gay marriage is not the be all and end all, you have money then you can pay for programs in schools to help gay youths, you can pay to help homeless LGBT people specifically and lots of other things. Frankly I strongly doubt any of the parties have the balls to stand up and demand gay marriage, which is as good to me as not mentioning the issue at all. Thats the way politics works, not on whats right but on what will get you votes.

I wasn't talking about equality being specific to the LGBT sector but to society in general.. the LGBT population are about maybe 10% of the population if that...It's more about the way that society is allowed to evolve and be shaped to become fairer all round. Better care for those less well off in general.
Labour will push for a Civil Marriage Bill but the advice is that it could be challenged as being against the current constitution so that is why at the moment Labour are happy to support the CP bill but the longer term aim is to bring in CM.
When I said have patience I meant only for a few weeks and you will see the party policies in much greater detail. At this stage none of the parties are being too specific, about their manifestos unless you swallow the media hype hook line and sinker:)

L1011

hotmail.com wrote: »

It's a pretty serious accusation to make when you're not sure of the facts.

Its not an accusation, and I'm going on the absolute entirety of what is public - e.g. "the facts". He was questioned in relation to it.

Aard

Louisevb wrote: »

Labour will push for a Civil Marriage Bill but the advice is that it could be challenged as being against the current constitution so that is why at the moment Labour are happy to support the CP bill but the longer term aim is to bring in CM.

"Longer term" doesn't sound too good. Do Labour have any goal-date for when it'll be legalised?

L1011

Aard wrote: »

"Longer term" doesn't sound too good. Do Labour have any goal-date for when it'll be legalised?

Seeing as they're not yet in government, that's fairly impossible to give.. however, its expected they'll float the issue within 2-3 years of getting in to office. Remember they're likely to be in with a centre right conservative party who consider themselves "Christian Democrats".

Realistically they have to second-guess the supreme court. If the SC rule that civil marriage is repugnant to the 'family' (English mistranslation, the Irish text holds legal precedence) clause it'll need a referendum to bring in full marriage.

And its pretty much 100% guaranteed that someone will take a challenge to the SC if the President doesn't refer a hypothetical bill in the first place.

hotmail.com

MYOB wrote: »

Its not an accusation, and I'm going on the absolute entirety of what is public - e.g. "the facts". He was questioned in relation to it.

There was a homophobic assumption that he was involved with rentboys. You are perpetuating the falsehood by mentioning it again in a LGBT forum.

rainbow kirby

Back on topic please.

hotmail.com

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Back on topic please.

I wasn't the one mentioning the falsehoods. Just had to clarified for those that don't know.;)

ninty9er

Louisevb wrote: »

Labour have a dedicated LGBT section and a dedicated Equality section which both feed proposed policy changes in to the main executive. Labour have a strong equality agenda and did propose a CP bill in 2007 which was thrown out by Michael McDowell before he was thrown out by the electorate.

The fact that the other parties don't have specific LGBT sections actually makes me respect them more. What's special about LGBT individuals above, for example immigrants, students (youth wings aren't for students), public servants, civil servants, black people.

This mollycoddling of special interest groups irks me to the core. I agree with some of what is said by crayolastereo below:

crayolastereo wrote: »

My life doesn't revolve around being gay. I want a job, a proper education and health service. Gay marriage is not the be all and end all, you have money then you can pay for programs in schools to help gay youths, you can pay to help homeless LGBT people specifically and lots of other things. Frankly I strongly doubt any of the parties have the balls to stand up and demand gay marriage, which is as good to me as not mentioning the issue at all. Thats the way politics works, not on whats right but on what will get you votes.

I don't believe you need specific sections, because issues change and sections/committees remain wasting everyone's time, I see it week in, week out in my job.

Issues should be discussed by anyone interested at such a time as they are next on the list of priorities. Different groups of interested parties, regardless of membership of a section should be able to come together to discuss issues.

I was consulted on the Ógra policy as a FF member and in terms of the final product it was actually restrained by those who have reservations rather than being a completely populist idea. The support of some was not easy won to make this an official policy, but it has become one. There is no point trying to paint any party as the bastion of anything, let alone LGBT, because there will always be a body of people in any party that disagree with every policy of the party.

In any case this is not a sudden enlightenment with an election due. A number of months work were put in and it was finally approved by the Youth Committee in February of last year.

Aard

ninety9er, what's the gestation period between being a Youth member and becoming a TD? Or indeed between being Youth policy and standard party policy?

Azure_sky

I had to show you guys this.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69879313&postcount=211

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Fianna Fáil are becoming very pro-gay these days if any of you people want to get involved in politics

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

David Norris does not represent the values of the ordinary Irish man or woman and should not be president. We should have someone who is Christian, married, centrist and with a love for Irish history and gaelic games.

senordingdong

What does it mean by Grassroots?

If that's just one lone FF supporter then the whole party can't be tarred with his image.

Azure_sky

senordingdong wrote: »

What does it mean by Grassroots?

If that's just one lone FF supporter then the whole party can't be tarred with his image.

I don't think there is any flesh left on this party to be tarred further.
Grassroots FF is a FF organisation.

FIANNA FÁIL’S strong grassroots organisation across the country, and particularly in rural areas, will save it from oblivion in the next election, Minister for Social Protection Éamon Ó Cuív has said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0103/1224286668890.html

stephen_n

Louisevb wrote: »

So what would you rather have a more equal and just society or one which is very unequal but is financially sound? Labour have the policies and you will see these closer to the election... At this stage it's a game of poker as no party wil detail it's policies until the election is formally called because at this stage ideas for reforming the economy etc. will be stolen and what you are feeding into is a game of chicken and you've bought it.. Have patience

I'm not just talking economics verses social inclusion. I'm making the point that voting on single issues for national government is what got us in this mess in the first place. Electing local counselors to get good roads and services who haven't got the first idea how to run the country, instead of electing people who are capeable of running a fair an equitable country that we deserve.

This again is a huge problem with this country and the party political system, they are too busy trying to score political points rather than actually working to fix the problem. Labour won't put forward ideas in case Fianna FAIL implement them and try and claim credit, childish and unpatriotic by people that don't deserve the job.

The policies for all parties should be open and transparent so people know exactly what and who they are voting for!

Louisevb

ninty9er wrote: »

The fact that the other parties don't have specific LGBT sections actually makes me respect them more. What's special about LGBT individuals above, for example immigrants, students (youth wings aren't for students), public servants, civil servants, black people.

This mollycoddling of special interest groups irks me to the core. I agree with some of what is said by crayolastereo below:



I don't believe you need specific sections, because issues change and sections/committees remain wasting everyone's time, I see it week in, week out in my job.

Issues should be discussed by anyone interested at such a time as they are next on the list of priorities. Different groups of interested parties, regardless of membership of a section should be able to come together to discuss issues.

I was consulted on the Ógra policy as a FF member and in terms of the final product it was actually restrained by those who have reservations rather than being a completely populist idea. The support of some was not easy won to make this an official policy, but it has become one. There is no point trying to paint any party as the bastion of anything, let alone LGBT, because there will always be a body of people in any party that disagree with every policy of the party.

In any case this is not a sudden enlightenment with an election due. A number of months work were put in and it was finally approved by the Youth Committee in February of last year.

With respect that is a pretty naive statement on groups within a party. Not all party members are aware of specific issues and small groups can and do act as pressure groups to raise awareness and to educate, and it's not just on LGBT issues either. There are a number of minorities whose voices are not raised to any degree, that is why we end up with people like Sean Heally etc. putting the case for victims of poverty. As I assume you are a member of FF one example is the abominable delay and opposition by FF in bringing forward legislation on gender recognition which has taken until now from 2002 and the original judgment of the ECHR

Grassroots_FF

Fianna Fáil brought in legislation for civil partnerships. The precious Labour party never did that when they when in government. Gay people can feel confident that FF will represent them. Things are different to 30 years ago.

stephen_n

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Fianna Fáil brought in legislation for civil partnerships. The precious Labour party never did that when they when in government. Gay people can feel confident that FF will represent them. Things are different to 30 years ago.

I think you will find the Green Party pushed that agenda not Fianna FAIL!

Also how can you say that a party which can't detach itself from the catholic church is the best party to represent LGBT issues, since the catholic church does not accept LGBT people?

Chuchoter

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Fianna Fáil brought in legislation for civil partnerships. The precious Labour party never did that when they when in government. Gay people can feel confident that FF will represent them. Things are different to 30 years ago.

Except no-one wanted CP. We wanted civil marriage, and you gave us an offensive half measure. FF fought Lydia Foy for years, hardly sounds lgbt friendly to me.

Grassroots_FF

stephen_n wrote: »

I think you will find the Green Party pushed that agenda not Fianna FAIL!

Also how can you say that a party which can't detach itself from the catholic church is the best party to represent LGBT issues, since the catholic church does not accept LGBT people?

It was an FF government who voted it through. I don't remember Labour or Fine Gael doing anything for gays the last time they were in power.

Grassroots_FF

crayolastereo wrote: »

Except no-one wanted CP. We wanted civil marriage, and you gave us an offensive half measure. FF fought Lydia Foy for years, hardly sounds lgbt friendly to me.

Some people are never happy no matter what they get. My uncle always says "never look a gift horse in the mouth".

Aard

Excellent point, CS, that no gay people actually wanted CP.

And yes, FF may have brought in partnerships, but that's only after 14 years in government. Hardly something to boast about.

Aard

@Grassroots:
I'd rather send that long-toothed mare to the knackers, and wait for a trusty colt.

MicraBoy

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Some people are never happy no matter what they get. My uncle always says "never look a gift horse in the mouth".

Uncle Bertie is it?

Grassroots_FF

Aard wrote: »

@Grassroots:
I'd rather send that long-toothed mare to the knackers, and wait for a trusty colt.

Well you won't get it from Fine Gael. Do you think Enda Kenny, an old rural conservative from the bogs of Mayo would support full gay marriage?

FF have been the most gay friendly party. We de-criminalised homosexuality when Maire Geoghan Quinn was Justice mininister in the early 90s and now brought in partnerships. That's fair going imo

Annasopra

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

It was an FF government who voted it through. I don't remember Labour or Fine Gael doing anything for gays the last time they were in power.

you've a very bad memory then

Where to begin - Last time Labour were in government was 1992 - 1997

The Norris case in the ECHR was delivered in 1988 - The PDs demanded that decriminalisation would be delivered between 1989 and 1992 - FF wouldn't do it

Labour demanded this be done entering government in 1992 and forced FF to do it

In 1992 Labour demanded that a government department be assigned to specifically equality and law reform - It was Mervyn Taylor - Labour party minister who was the architect of equality laws in this country to protect people from discrimination

As well as this Labour forced the issue of partnership rights more than other party in this country - we adopted policy on it as far back as 1997 just as we were leaving government -, our senators supported David Norriss civil partnership bill around 2002/2003 in 2004 our LGBT section was founded Labour then bought forward private members bills on CP in the Dail in 2006 and 2007

stephen_n

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

It was an FF government who voted it through. I don't remember Labour or Fine Gael doing anything for gays the last time they were in power.

As Johhny points out you have a very short memory and it is a Fianna FAIL coalition that voted it through at the behest of there junior partners. Are you claiming responseabilty for the carbon levy and the ban on fox hunting too?

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Well you won't get it from Fine Gael. Do you think Enda Kenny, an old rural conservative from the bogs of Mayo would support full gay marriage?

Strange that coming from a party that has a huge rural support and who will be doing it's main campaigning at church gates in a lot of those rural communities. If you are the standard of the next generation of Fianna FAILers then I might get my wish and see the end of that party in this country, or is it just typical two faced politics where you try and be all things to all people.

happy_feet

My opinion on all this?

Don't feed the troll.

I do however find his pathetic attempts to make FF sound like a half decent party rather amusing.

stephen_n

happy_feet wrote: »

My opinion on all this?

Don't feed the troll.

I do however find his pathetic attempts to make FF sound like a half decent party rather amusing.

He's not trolling he's campaigning!

Endymion

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Well you won't get it from Fine Gael. Do you think Enda Kenny, an old rural conservative from the bogs of Mayo would support full gay marriage?

FF have been the most gay friendly party. We de-criminalised homosexuality when Maire Geoghan Quinn was Justice mininister in the early 90s and now brought in partnerships. That's fair going imo

You do realise that you're talking to the one group of people who in all likelihood are fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the legalisation of homosexuality and Fianna Fails opposition to it. You might get somewhere if you argued Fianna Fail is no longer that political party, but to suggest it never was that political party is a blatant attempt at spin.

happy_feet

stephen_n wrote: »

He's not trolling he's campaigning!

My apologies. That should have read, ''Don't feed the gob****e''.

Can't wait till FF get voted out. Day can't come any sooner!

Aard

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Well you won't get it from Fine Gael. Do you think Enda Kenny, an old rural conservative from the bogs of Mayo would support full gay marriage?

No I don't believe in old Enda, and I'm not expecting it from Fine Gael. However, I don't have faith either in the "grassroots" FF members: essentially pensioners, farmers, and the socially conservative.

FF have been the most gay friendly party. We de-criminalised homosexuality when Maire Geoghan Quinn was Justice mininister in the early 90s and now brought in partnerships. That's fair going imo

FF have been the most gay friendly party who have been in government. What about the other parties who advocate marriage? Decriminalisation happened because of Mary Robinson and David Norris, after a court case against the state, i.e. FF, who conceded. Not exactly pro-active.

Partnerships were brought in by the Green Party. Tell me, why did they drag their feet for so long on the partnership issue?

Grassroots_FF

stephen_n wrote: »

Strange that coming from a party that has a huge rural support and who will be doing it's main campaigning at church gates in a lot of those rural communities. If you are the standard of the next generation of Fianna FAILers then I might get my wish and see the end of that party in this country, or is it just typical two faced politics where you try and be all things to all people.

Nothing wrong with going to church. I'm just pointing out that Enda Kenny is not a modern man who understands what changes are needs. Personnally I'd support gay marriage and getting more gay people active in the party.

Louisevb

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Nothing wrong with going to church. I'm just pointing out that Enda Kenny is not a modern man who understands what changes are needs. Personnally I'd support gay marriage and getting more gay people active in the party.

Can I also add that it took 8 years for FF to comply with the ECHR decision of 2002 which lead to the FF governemnt stopping the oposition to Lydia Foy in the supreme court under article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights again prompted by the Greens... hardly an endorsement for FF

L1011

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

It was an FF government who voted it through. I don't remember Labour or Fine Gael doing anything for gays the last time they were in power.

Nobody voted it through. It passed without a vote as all whips indicated full party support - FG, Labour and Sinn Fein as well as the government parties.

Labour's support of the 92-94 FF/Labour coalition was dependent on the decriminalisation of homosexuality. FF wouldn't have done it alone, as the party view was that non-prosecution was sufficient to comply with the ECHR judgement.

FG/Labour also attempted to bring in the Equal Status Bill and Employment Equality acts towards the end of their term in office. It took FF 3 and 1 years respectively to do this after getting elected. FF's employment equality bills also include the ridiculous "religious ethos" clauses.

You don't remember because you didn't have any need to know, seeing as you're clearly only in here in a desperate attempt to campaign for your failing party.

Dr. Baltar

MYOB wrote: »

Nobody voted it through. It passed without a vote as all whips indicated full party support - FG, Labour and Sinn Fein as well as the government parties.

Labour's support of the 92-94 FF/Labour coalition was dependent on the decriminalisation of homosexuality. FF wouldn't have done it alone, as the party view was that non-prosecution was sufficient to comply with the ECHR judgement.

FG/Labour also attempted to bring in the Equal Status Bill and Employment Equality acts towards the end of their term in office. It took FF 3 and 1 years respectively to do this after getting elected. FF's employment equality bills also include the ridiculous "religious ethos" clauses.

You don't remember because you didn't have any need to know, seeing as you're clearly only in here in a desperate attempt to campaign for your failing party.

Simply want to say +1 to everything you have said!

Grassroots_FF

MYOB wrote: »

Nobody voted it through. It passed without a vote as all whips indicated full party support - FG, Labour and Sinn Fein as well as the government parties.

Labour's support of the 92-94 FF/Labour coalition was dependent on the decriminalisation of homosexuality. FF wouldn't have done it alone, as the party view was that non-prosecution was sufficient to comply with the ECHR judgement.

FG/Labour also attempted to bring in the Equal Status Bill and Employment Equality acts towards the end of their term in office. It took FF 3 and 1 years respectively to do this after getting elected. FF's employment equality bills also include the ridiculous "religious ethos" clauses.

You don't remember because you didn't have any need to know, seeing as you're clearly only in here in a desperate attempt to campaign for your failing party.

It was the Fianna Fáil minister for Justice who proposed the bill. What bills have Fine gael ministers ever proposed to promote gay rights?

Links234

I have a question, what is FF doing for transgender people?

Grassroots_FF

Links234 wrote: »

I have a question, what is FF doing for transgender people?

I honestly couldn't tell ya

L1011

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

It was the Fianna Fáil minister for Justice who proposed the bill. What bills have Fine gael ministers ever proposed to promote gay rights?

She proposed it because it was part of the Programme for Government solely at the insistence of Labour.

Similarly, FG ministers proposed the two Equality bills I mentioned in my post. Are you unable to read?

Azure_sky

MYOB wrote: »

Are you unable to read debate?

Fixed.

Annasopra

MYOB wrote: »

Similarly, FG ministers proposed the two Equality bills I mentioned in my post.

which FG ministers?

Grassroots_FF

MYOB wrote: »

She proposed it because it was part of the Programme for Government solely at the insistence of Labour.

Similarly, FG ministers proposed the two Equality bills I mentioned in my post. Are you unable to read?

What bills are you reffering to and were they implemented? You're wrong if you think Fine Gael are more progressive than Fianna Fáil. In the european parlaiment FF is in the liberal group which are pro-gay. Fine Gael are in the Christian conservative group which are anti-gay marriage.

Annasopra

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

What bills are you reffering to and were they implemented? You're wrong if you think Fine Gael are more progressive than Fianna Fáil. In the european parlaiment FF is in the liberal group which are pro-gay. Fine Gael are in the Christian conservative group which are anti-gay marriage.

Ah yes - Senators Jim Walsh, Labhras O Murchu and John Hanifin would sit easily in the EP Liberal group

Perhaps I'm mistaken - was it not FF who bought in the first discriminatory policy against same sex couples in Europe in recent times when Minister Coughlan effectively reversed an equality authority decision she didn't like?

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/irish-rail-enforcing-the-ban-on-free-travel-for-same-sex-couples/

L1011

Azure_sky wrote: »

Fixed.

No, its reading. Look at how he's asking me things I've already answered, repeatedly.

Johnnymcg wrote: »

which FG ministers?

Nora Owen and, erm, Nora Owen. Minister I should have said.

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

What bills are you reffering to and were they implemented? You're wrong if you think Fine Gael are more progressive than Fianna Fáil. In the european parlaiment FF is in the liberal group which are pro-gay. Fine Gael are in the Christian conservative group which are anti-gay marriage.

I already told you what bills and I already told you they weren't implemented as FG ran out of time to get them through the SC and FF took an inordinate amount of time to bring in watered down versions of them with cop-out clauses for religious organisations. Read my posts before asking stuff I've told you already.

Also, FF only sit with ALDE because sitting with the EPP would be completely unacceptable for civil war politics reasons - FG got there first. FF is centre right, end of.

Killer Pigeon

A taste of what Grassroots_FF really thinks about the gay community;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69922736&postcount=45

Aard

OK, so we knew he was a troll from the start, but it'll still be amusing to see how well he explains/ignores this.

ninty9er

Grassroots_FF is clearly

a)delusional

or

b)a member of another party cleverly planted to piss off people here and associate this with Fianna Fáil.

My guess is both.

Aard

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Some people have posted their Political Compass already. It might be interesting if more people were to do so too, and I'll make up a graph showing where Boards LGBT's collective political mind stands. The test takes at most 10 minutes to complete. What do yous think? I've seen/done it on other forums, and it's usually interesting enough.

Something like this, either with or without labels:

ninty9er

Gestation period from Ógra to TD is cyclical. In the 80s it could have been immediate and the cycle is beginning to repeat itself with candidates like James Carroll in Louth.

Lousievb, you make the mistake of assuming people who have a knowledge of something are the only people interested or who wish to have a say. I stand by my initial usage of the word mollycoddling.

Annasopra

Aard wrote: »

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Some people have posted their Political Compass already. It might be interesting if more people were to do so too, and I'll make up a graph showing where Boards LGBT's collective political mind stands. The test takes at most 10 minutes to complete. What do yous think? I've seen/done it on other forums, and it's usually interesting enough.

Something like this, either with or without labels:

Good idea

Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.21

Azure_sky

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

A taste of what Grassroots_FF really thinks about the gay community;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69922736&postcount=45

OMG:eek: What a lying, two faced FXXXING WXXKER!