State of the Forum Address

Malice

silent sage wrote: »

Yes, I was taking into account the few stickied threads that will/could be unstuck. I'm of the opinion that the less stickied threads the better,

Yeah, I'll make a start tidying those sticky threads up. I don't think anyone's going to object.

silent sage wrote:

but I think the Gig thread would be a very useful addition. I'm mainly based in Cork and with that I don't have the volume or variety of R/M bands that you would find in say Dublin, so it would be nice to hear about some lesser known, even local Irish, bands playing in my area. I don't frequent the Gigs & Events forum and I generally don't buy R/M magazines or visit sites like Metal Ireland.

We need to thrash out exactly what will happen with the gig thread but there will definitely be a change of some sort.

chin_grin wrote: »

Maybe sub fora by genre? And you could have stickies up the top for band recommendations.

There won't be a division between rock and metal so there definitely won't be a split between metal genres. Wikipedia lists 33 distinct genres and that's without combining them so Melodic Industrial Death Metal isn't listed for example. I'd say the admins would love a request for 33 sub forums to be listed under Rock & Metal .

liah

Malice_ wrote: »

Thanks for your feedback liah, I'll try to address your two points so hopefully you will visit this forum more often. Please don't take any implied criticism personally.
I can't stand musical elitists either. I don't think there's a constant slagging of bands on this forum. Certain bands will attract negative comments but so what? Someone saying that Matt Tuck looks like a twat isn't going to affect my opinion of Bullet For My Valentine and it shouldn't change yours.

As for confessing what they really like, this is the Rock + Metal forum so there's not a lot of point in starting a discussion on Lisa Gerrard, Tiesto, John Williams, Brian Eno or Lady Gaga because they'll just get moved to the appropriate forum. For the record I like all of the aforementioned artists and I'm not afraid to admit it .

Oh I know, but it gets a bit ridiculous when someone likes, say.. I dunno what's fashionable to hate these days, but e.g. if someone came in and said they thought eh.. Creed or something were awesome, they'd be slagged out of it. Or if someone tried to call a metal band a rock band, or a rock band a metal band. I also think this whole over-genrefication thing doesn't do anyone any favours but it is what it is and I can ignore that.

I just think it's a bit daunting to people, that's all, it always was for me. I like what I like and I don't care what other people think of it and other people are entitled to their own opinions and everything, but it seems redundant for people to constantly express how their music is "good" and everything else is "bad." It adds nothing to discussions, music is subjective and not absolute yet people in this forum tend to treat it as if it is.

I would love if posts that are just slagging off bands without offering any logic were reported so that, in the off-chance that I miss them, I'll be able to review them later.

I'll be sure to do this from now on. I just always feel weird reporting things like that as they're not directly breaking any charters and I don't like causing mods more hassle than they already have to deal with.

Okay, looking at the front page right now, there are two threads specifically devoted to rock (here and here), seven devoted to gigs (some of which are metal-orientated, fair enough) and four devoted to metal (which in turn are related to industrial metal, thrash metal and hardcore). Sure there are a lot of metal-orientated threads but the obvious answer to me each time this comes up is to start the discussion threads yourself. Don't wait for the mountain to come to Mohammed, grab the bull by the horns etc. Whatever discussion topics you want to see, start them!

Fair enough. I'm not much of a type for starting discussions about music, more just dropping in and adding my two cents every once in awhile, but I'll try to start some that may add some new rock blood to dilute a bit of the metal.

Maybe it's more balanced than I thought, I just never seem to notice threads that aren't metal coming up on my homepage (I use the subbed forums feed rather than accessing forums directly). The way I'm going on you'd think I hate metal; I actually like a very good bit of it and its many subgenres, but I tend to notice that the fans themselves tend to be cliquey and a bit overly judgmental of what isn't metal, and that does come across here if you're not participating in the chat threads.

As for the pictures thread, I didn't know we had one. There are hottest guys and girls in metal threads. Are they what you mean? If so, I'm sure if I went through them I'd find plenty of rock musicians in both. Maybe I should change the thread titles?

I could've sworn there was a Know Your Metalheads type of thread floating around here at some stage, admittedly it's been a very long time since I've seen it. Could be a figment of my imagination, but I'm almost convinced there was one. Can't find it though, so who knows.

I think changing the titles to include both would be awesome and definitely include a lot more people who, like me, don't fancy starting discussions all that often but enjoy participating.

As for the chat thread, it's title is a play on an AC/DC song who are a rock band. I don't see where the "for metal only" idea relates to that thread at all.

Oh, I know the reference. But even the chat thread has an undercurrent of the metal thing running through. I know I wouldn't really feel massively welcome participating in it. The last two pages are largely videos or metal references with the occasional weird/random/normal one thrown in.

Then again, this is probably just my own problem as I don't identify with the idea of subcultures in general and often find them very much a turn-off as they're so exclusive, so take the above with a grain of salt.

I totally agree. Like I said earlier, if you happen to come across posts that you feel are being elitist, report them and I'll review them.

Cheers, I will do that.

Zombienosh

liah wrote: »

Two main reasons I don't use this forum despite adoring music and loving to talk about it:

1) Ye're all so bloody judgmental! The constant slagging of bands that aren't "hard" enough or whatever the hell else is so irritating and dull. I can't stand music elitists and this place is full of them and frankly, it scares people off because they don't want to confess what they really like for fear they'll get slated.

2) TOO. MUCH. FECKING. METAL. All the discussion is about metal. The picture thread is for metallers. The chat thread is for metallers. Every thread, metal. And if it's not, it just goes back to #1. Rock is in the title, too, you know!

I love music and I love discussing music but the judgmental elitist attitude should be left at the door imho.

I think this is a bit harsh, I don't see elistist stuff in R&M... on other sites always, i think here is pretty open minded. I think you're making it out a lot worse than it is. Too much metal? can that even be a valid argument? theres too much metal in the rock and metal forum? so what? stop posting about metal? ...

jenizzle

I wouldn't change much about the place tbh. I love the recommend a band/rate what the user above you is listening to -type stuff as I've been introduced to other bands I wouldn't have heard otherwise. Lots of recommendations out there and even though I'm aware that some of you listen to much blacker metal than I could ever handle, I still appreciate the effort and I'd give it a try!

There's much less elitism here than there are in other forums, so I'll always come back :cool:

bigbadcon

what about a new forum per metal genre....


starting with Nintendocore..

Max Power1

Well the subfora for each genre is obviously a non starter.

I also dont think there is any problem with elitism on this forum, especially compared to some other metal sites I used to post on.

silent sage

bigbadcon wrote: »

what about a new forum per metal genre....


starting with Nintendocore..

Yes, this place is crying out for a secluded forum where we can peacefully discuss such groundbreaking artists such as HORSE the Band :pac:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=692ayi42gVw

I don't think there's a need to say the following, but -> j/k

Malice

Hmm, I had a reply to this written out last night but somehow it doesn't seem to have gotten posted . Oh well, I'll just have to try again.

liah wrote: »

Oh I know, but it gets a bit ridiculous when someone likes, say.. I dunno what's fashionable to hate these days, but e.g. if someone came in and said they thought eh.. Creed or something were awesome, they'd be slagged out of it. Or if someone tried to call a metal band a rock band, or a rock band a metal band. I also think this whole over-genrefication thing doesn't do anyone any favours but it is what it is and I can ignore that.

If someone posted something like

OMG Creed r lik the bestest band evar!!!!!111one

then they would rightfully be slagged off.

If, on the other hand, someone posted that Scott Stapp's lyrics really speak to them or that they love Mark Tremonti's guitar playing then anyone replying to the post slagging the poster would be very quickly told to cop themselves on. Remember that there's a difference between attacking the post and attacking the poster. Saying "Creed are crap" is one thing but saying "You're an idiot if you like Creed" is personal abuse and would be dealt with accordingly.

liah wrote:

I just think it's a bit daunting to people, that's all, it always was for me.

Is that specific to this forum or Boards in general though? You've got over four thousand posts in just under two and a half years of being registered so you're far from a newbie .
It's outside the scope of this thread but Boards is daunting for new posters.

liah wrote:

I like what I like and I don't care what other people think of it and other people are entitled to their own opinions and everything, but it seems redundant for people to constantly express how their music is "good" and everything else is "bad." It adds nothing to discussions, music is subjective and not absolute yet people in this forum tend to treat it as if it is.

Well if you don't care what other people think about music that probably explains why you're not actively posting in this forum . Again though, I haven't encountered any examples of people saying their music is good and everything else is bad. I'm not saying they don't exist but usually the opinion is expressed a bit more eloquently than simply saying something is "bad".

liah wrote:

I'll be sure to do this from now on. I just always feel weird reporting things like that as they're not directly breaking any charters and I don't like causing mods more hassle than they already have to deal with.

You shouldn't feel wierd reporting a post at all. It is actually something that has been discussed in the moderator forum because the wording on the reported post page makes it seem a lot more official than it really is. The forums that I moderate are much quieter than the likes of After Hours or Personal Issues so there are not a lot of reported posts. There's roughly about 15 per week so it's no hassle to check things out and any moderator who complains about reported posts being a hassle either needs to reconsider why exactly they are a moderator or they need to get another pair of hands to help out. Lastly, a post doesn't have to be directly breaking any rules for it need to be brought to a moderator's attention.

liah wrote:

Fair enough. I'm not much of a type for starting discussions about music, more just dropping in and adding my two cents every once in awhile, but I'll try to start some that may add some new rock blood to dilute a bit of the metal.

That sounds good!

liah wrote:

Maybe it's more balanced than I thought, I just never seem to notice threads that aren't metal coming up on my homepage (I use the subbed forums feed rather than accessing forums directly).

What's the subbed forums feed? Is it an RSS feed?

liah wrote:

The way I'm going on you'd think I hate metal; I actually like a very good bit of it and its many subgenres, but I tend to notice that the fans themselves tend to be cliquey and a bit overly judgmental of what isn't metal, and that does come across here if you're not participating in the chat threads.

That sounds to me like you're bringing real life experience into a discussion forum. I have to say I've never noticed any cliques on this forum (unless they are avoiding me deliberately ). I agree that some metal fans in real life can be very dismissive of bands they don't like but you get dickheads in all walks of life.

liah wrote:

I could've sworn there was a Know Your Metalheads type of thread floating around here at some stage, admittedly it's been a very long time since I've seen it. Could be a figment of my imagination, but I'm almost convinced there was one. Can't find it though, so who knows.

Whoops, my apologies, you're absolutely right. Here it is. It hasn't been updated since Dec 2009 though. I'll add that to the list of threads to be re-titled to be less rockist.

liah wrote:

Oh, I know the reference. But even the chat thread has an undercurrent of the metal thing running through. I know I wouldn't really feel massively welcome participating in it. The last two pages are largely videos or metal references with the occasional weird/random/normal one thrown in.

The last two pages stretch back to April 2010 so there isn't a lot of chat going on in the thread. As Zombienosh pointed out, if more metal fans participate in the forum then it's naturally going to be biased towards metal. Personally I wouldn't see an undercurrent of metal being something insidious but the easy solution if you see it that way is, as I've said before, to post more rock-orientated stuff.

GLaDOS

Malice_ wrote: »

What's the subbed forums feed? Is it an RSS feed?

When you follow a forum, you chose for your homepage to only show threads for the forums you follow.

Malice

ScienceNerd wrote: »

When you follow a forum, you chose for your homepage to only show threads for the forums you follow.

I think you're talking about the My Threads and My Forums link from the main Boards.ie page. I'm not sure that's the same thing as what liah mentioned. I am of course open to correction .

slavetothegrind

This has to be
This is the most temperate open minded forum I have seen.

I read threads about bands from the most extreme to the barely credible underneath the description of the forum and rarely are there abusive posts.

For an older rocker it's hugely informative and retrospective at the same time.

Love the rate what the last person listens to thread for the introduction possibilities it offers

I enjoy it and thanks to all involved and that includes you malice you clannad loving pop obsessed excuse for a metal head!!!!:D

People here are rarely if ever nasty, if you feel threatened here the inter web is not for you!

All men play on ten, never gonna turn down again!

Malice

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Love the rate what the last person listens to thread for the introduction possibilities it offers

I really must get around to posting on that thread.

slavetothegrind wrote:

I enjoy it and thanks to all involved and that includes you malice you clannad loving pop obsessed excuse for a metal head!!!!:D

This actually made me laugh out loud . I don't love Clannad, in fact every time I hear their name mentioned, I think of this guy:


As for being obsessed with pop, I dunno about that either. I do try to broaden my listening horizons but I'm a metal fan at heart.

Malice

Okay, I'm unsticking this. I think everyone that was going to post has posted at this stage. If you haven't then feel free to post anyway, I'll still get the thread update notification.

Thanks to everyone that provided feedback!

GrizzlyMan

Just a thought I know everyone is into all different types of metal or rock for that matter, Personally im a huge fan of the black/death scandinavian scene, I noticed that the following for scandinavian Metal wouldnt be as popular as alot of "main stream" or well known bands. like metallica, slayer, deicide, avenge, etc etc So I think a Sticky to discuss scandinavian metal would be a an idea!

mike65

So a classic jazz fusion rock sub forum is out of the question

The board is clearly biased towards pesky modern metal but then it would be a surprise if it were other. Those who want to fly the flag for more venerable styles and bands have to get posting.

Jem_

GrizzlyMan wrote: »

Just a thought I know everyone is into all different types of metal or rock for that matter, Personally im a huge fan of the black/death scandinavian scene, I noticed that the following for scandinavian Metal wouldnt be as popular as alot of "main stream" or well known bands. like metallica, slayer, deicide, avenge, etc etc So I think a Sticky to discuss scandinavian metal would be a an idea!

My head we can have two stickied threads
First. Rules and useful links
Second. Irish bands

All other threads need to survive naturally

That's what I think

PS. Popular threads like Gigs, Venues etc may be linked in 2nd (Moderators) post of "Rules & Links" so you always can find'em easy

slavetothegrind

mike65 wrote: »

So a classic jazz fusion rock sub forum is out of the question

The board is clearly biased towards pesky modern metal but then it would be a surprise if it were other. Those who want to fly the flag for more venerable styles and bands have to get posting.

i'd say a lot of what i play on guitar is jazz fusion rock, a lot of it strays across many scales and is reportedly hard to listen to:p

ooops off topic,:o

Malice

GrizzlyMan wrote: »

Just a thought I know everyone is into all different types of metal or rock for that matter, Personally im a huge fan of the black/death scandinavian scene, I noticed that the following for scandinavian Metal wouldnt be as popular as alot of "main stream" or well known bands. like metallica, slayer, deicide, avenge, etc etc So I think a Sticky to discuss scandinavian metal would be a an idea!

When you say Scandinavia are you specifically referring to Norway, Sweden and Denmark? I think Scandinavian metal is very popular on here so there would be nothing stopping you from creating a discussion thread on that subject and seeing what happens.

mike65 wrote: »

So a classic jazz fusion rock sub forum is out of the question

For now anyway. Who knows what the future will bring .

Jem_ wrote: »

My head we can have two stickied threads
First. Rules and useful links
Second. Irish bands

All other threads need to survive naturally

That's what I think

PS. Popular threads like Gigs, Venues etc may be linked in 2nd (Moderators) post of "Rules & Links" so you always can find'em easy

That's a good point but I've already had to show the venues thread to two people who weren't particularly computer literate and I'd say burying it in a thread would just confuse them and others like them so I'm going to leave it stuck on the front page for now.

Kess73

Have to say that I like the forum more or less as it is. It is a good forum to lurk in and also a great forum to join in when the mood takes. I like the fact that the forum is pretty much squabble free most of the time.


There is a nice mix of tastes on here, and sometimes it would be nice to see that reflected a bit more in some of the conversations, but that is down to people to post about what they like rather than staying quiet because they may think that what they like is too Heavy/Dark/Melodic/Rock Orientated/Trendy/Old fashioned or whatever.


The only things I would like to see added are maybe a couple of sticky threads.

One could be an album review thread where people could rate albums they just bought regardless of whether it was a new release or an old classic. Maybe have the only rule that it could not be simply a list thread. So that people would have to say a few lines as to why they rate the album, and what it sounds like or who it sounds like.


I kinda like the idea of a new release/reissue type thread as well where the release dates of albums or reissues could be put up, irrespective of what genre of rock or metal the albums fall under. It might need a bit of cleaning everynow and then, but the first post could be the January releases. People would post in the thread what albums they knew off that were coming out that month with the date of release,and someone with editing powers could drop them into the first post in the thread. Then at the end of the month all the posts bar the editted first post would be deleted and the second post would become the slot for the Feb releases and that pattern would continue from month to month.

Kess73

mike65 wrote: »

So a classic jazz fusion rock sub forum is out of the question

.

We could call it the Jaco Pastorius finger picking forum. Or the Charles Mingus was 'ere forum.


Actually think I will put a bit of the man on now. Have not listened to him in a bit.

RebelSoul

How about naked wednesdays, anyone?

Malice

RebelSoul wrote: »

How about naked wednesdays, anyone?

Can you elaborate on that a bit?

big b

This is one of my increasingly infrequent visits here, but I'll pop my 2c worth in anyway.

If you take a look back at the Forum Request for a classic rock forum - how many of the people who posted in favour are now regularly posting here? Not many, if any, I'd say. Apart from Mike, who posts everywhere:D

Not for one second would i suggest that the classic fans were made unwelcome, it's a lot more to do with simple weight of numbers. I, amongst others, did as we were asked at the time - post here more often. It did happen for a while, but why has it trailed off? Because weight of numbers meant our threads were lost in the mists, were taken over (in the nicest possible sense!) by posters with a very different view on what was classic rock or what constituted "rock greatness" and so on. They are obviously 100% entitled to their opinions, but their starting point is very different from ours.

An example of the differences - the "best imaginary band" thread (that wasn't the exact title, but I'm sure you know the one I mean)

The thread was full of guitarists and indeed bands I hardly know, and littered with votes for Jimi Hendrix as rythmn guitarist. I assume these were out of deference to the mans' status rather than his style ("I better put him in somewhere..."). But when you see such postings, I, for one, think "this ain't the place for me". Sure, I could try to show why I think such posts are misguided, but a) it would've been off topic and b) it's not for me or anyone else to decry someones' musical opinions. And I'm not going to convince many metal fans that Dave Gilmour is a "better" guitarist than their current Norwegian death metal fav, because Dave Gilmours' music leaves them cold.

I understand the view that it's difficult in some cases to categorise a band. I hate categorising anyway. But I don't think it would have been asking too much of rock music fans of any genre to have a look in 2 forums instead of one.
In any case, the split won't hapen, it seems, so I just thought I'd try to give some explanation as to why I seldom come here any more. I don't expect the world to change for me.
Thanks for listening.

ps Of the stuff that does appear here, I think Malice does a pretty damn good job of moderating it, and tries hard to keep peoples' interest. Well done!

Malice

Some good points in that post big b. I see your point about the problem for people who might be rock fans but aren't metal fans. I guess it's a bit difficult for me to identify with that viewpoint because I like both and don't tend to draw a distinction in discussions.

As for threads being taken over or lost, I guess that could happen but then if they do get taken over, take them back again! If they get lost, bump them back up with some more discussion.

Maybe there should be a discussion thread specifically for Classic Rock or something?

Of the stuff that does appear here, I think Malice does a pretty damn good job of moderating it, and tries hard to keep peoples' interest. Well done!

Thanks .

big b

Delighted you took my comments in the spirit they were intended

Appreciate the thought of a classic rock thread, it's certainly something I'd like to participate in.
The interpretation of what is classic rock is always going to be a touchy subject. Just as an example, loads of people here would insist that Metallica, Nirvana, Iron Maiden -bands like that- are worthy of classic status. In terms of longevity and popularity, they probably are, but in a musical sense they operate in a different world from Zappa, Genesis, Floyd, Yes and even "guitar hero" acts like Zeppelin and Hendrix. What we asked for in the classic forum request of eons ago was a place to chat about the latter group of bands without derailment from followers of the former. That may sound like musical snobbery, but it's not meant in that way at all. It's just a plea for somewhere to chat with like-minded people, a kind of all-encompassing fan club. In the context I'm trying to explain, Page vs Gilmour is interesting, whereas Page vs Angus Young just isn't.

I'm just outa bed so not sure if I've explained myself clearly, but I do appreciate the fact that you're open to discussion.:D

Malice

big b wrote: »

In the context I'm trying to explain, Page vs Gilmour is interesting, whereas Page vs Angus Young just isn't.

I would class Pink Floyd, AC-DC and Led Zeppelin as classic rock so why wouldn't both discussions be valid?

big b

Malice_ wrote: »

I would class Pink Floyd, AC-DC and Led Zeppelin as classic rock so why wouldn't both discussions be valid?

I wouldn't (I'd call AC/DC vintage rock maybe) although I'm sure many would disagree.

And I'd admit Angus was a pretty poor choice for the analogy - I did say i was just up!:o I was actually thinking about Angus in reference to something else, I should've picked out a guitarist from a more modern straight-ahead thrash band.

But i didn't - sorry for the blooper!

( and page v Young wouldn't be much of a contest anyway )

Hopefully the rest of my previous post made some sense.
Night shift over, bedtime for me.