Are Irish women too prudish around other women?

Eve_Dublin

Dudess wrote: »

I'm a bit irked by the idea that not wanting to bare all is akin to prudishness. I may be many things, but prudish is not one of them. And I don't like being naked in front of just anyone. I thought prudishness was sexual conservatism - yet the body isn't always sexual, so why is this deemed prudishness?

I get your point and I´d agree with you but if the body is not always seen as sexual and it´s just a body at the end of the day, then what´s the problem?

parker kent

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Spanish women go into full prepartion mode about March with sunbeds, plastic surgery (highest rate of surgery in Europe) etc. We don´t have that mentality in Ireland of getting "ready" for the Summer weather.

Oh I can understand why Irish women would not be as prepared when the summer weather arrives overnight. It normally only lasts for 1 or 2 weeks where it would be warm enough for swim wear/sunbathing etc. I guess as a guy I just forgot that there is more to it than just sticking on a bikini.

Or maybe I am just always tanned, waxed and ready to go

Eve_Dublin

parker kent wrote: »

I guess as a guy I just forgot that there is more to it than just sticking on a bikini.

Well it doesn´t have to be a massive ordeal but our pals at the marketing departments throughout the beauty industry make it out like it is and we buy into it. Guilt, guilt, guilt...control, control,control.

Reward

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course swingers aren't threating perverts wouldn't not be my cup tea in the slightest.. each to his own ... but men on their own openly masturbating while on a nudist beach are!!!...which is apparently what has happened in Ireland....There isn't anything remotely sexual about swimming on a nudist beach...

Ok I see what you are saying, I thought you were equating swingers with perverts. I do think that you are making a false distinction between the non perverts (swingers having on a nudist beach) and perverts (single men masturbating on a nudist beach). The main difference is that one is a couple (or what ever configuration) and the other is single.

As for masturbation on Irish nude beaches, I doubt that is unique to Ireland and I also think the more sexually open a society is and the more non stigmatized sexual outlets there available in a society, the less likely it is that is going to happen.

metrovelvet

Reward wrote: »

Ok I see what you are saying, I thought you were equating swingers with perverts. I do think that you are making a false distinction between the non perverts (swingers having sex in public on a nudist beach) and perverts (single men masturbating on a public on a nudist beach). The main difference is that one is a couple (or what ever configuration) and the other is single.

Nudist beaches are not for having sex on. That is not the principal behind them.

Jelly2

Actually, I think that the complaint from naturists at the Cap d'Agde was that swinger couples were not following the principle that Metrovelvet mentions above. So they considered this perverted, a deviation from the purpose of designating the beach a nudist resort. If they are to be believed, it seems that a more open and non-stigmatised attitude to nudity does not necessarily mean that sexual acts such as masturbation etc will be reduced.

Reward

metrovelvet wrote: »

Nudist beaches are not for having sex on. That is not the principal behind them.

I never said that they were or were not, I pointed out what I saw as being a false distinction between perverts and non perverts.

metrovelvet

Reward wrote: »

I never said that they were or were not, I pointed out what I saw as being a false distinction between perverts and non perverts.

It is perverted because its considered very bad form to to that on a naturist beach. It would be the same like having sex on a restaurant while others are eating.

axer

Reward wrote: »

I never said that they were or were not, I pointed out what I saw as being a false distinction between perverts and non perverts.

Then I think you misunderstand what the word pervert means. A couple having sex on a nudist beach and someone masterbating on a nudist beach are just as perverted as each other.

Reward

metrovelvet wrote: »

It is perverted because its considered very bad form to to that on a naturist beach. It would be the same like having sex on a restaurant while others are eating.

I understand that, as I said I just pointed out what I saw as a false distinction between what was being classed as perverted and what wasn't depending on gender and the number of people present.

Ickle Magoo

Dudess wrote: »

I'm a bit irked by the idea that not wanting to bare all is akin to prudishness. I may be many things, but prudish is not one of them. And I don't like being naked in front of just anyone. I thought prudishness was sexual conservatism - yet the body isn't always sexual, so why is this deemed prudishness?

According to wiki:

A prude (Old French prude meaning honourable woman)[1] is a person who is described as (or would describe themselves as) being concerned with decorum or propriety, significantly in excess of normal prevailing community standards. They may be perceived as being more uncomfortable than most with sexuality, nudity, alcohol, drug use or mischief.

The name is generally considered to suggest excessive modesty, and is hence unflattering, often used as an insult by people who do not share the moral standards of the "prude". A person who is considered a prude may have reservations about nudity, participating in romantic or sexual activity, drinking alcohol or consuming other drugs, or participating in mischief. These reservations usually stem from, or are at least justified by, moral beliefs. Actions or beliefs that may cause someone to be labeled a prude include advocating or practicing abstinence, advocating prohibition, advocating censorship of sexuality or nudity in the media, disapproval of being nude in public, avoiding or condemning public display of affection, or exhibiting unusual levels of discomfort with sexuality, alcohol, drugs or mischief.

The term is generally used in a relative sense. For example, one may be viewed as having relatively liberal standards regarding sexuality and drug usage compared to the overall population in which one resides, but compared to a smaller, specific subculture, one may appear to be unduly conservative and thus be labeled a prude because one refuses to participate in more illicit behaviors.

In historical contrast, the word prude was originally a noble compliment. Traditionally, it was usually associated with wisdom, integrity, usefulness, and profit. Even in present day language, it forms the root of the word prudence, meaning "sound judgement in practical affairs".

The degree of prudery can vary among different cultural frames.

Be proud to cover up!

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I´d have nothing but respect for a woman who wore a bikini on a beach in Ireland in the Summer. If it´s warm, then it´d be silly not to. In all honesty, I haven´t lived in Ireland long term for almost 7 years. I missed the good Summers it seems. I´d never knock anyone for wearing anything they like. Still, our Summers are nothing compared to most European Summers...an odd good day here there and I guess a lot of women wouldn´t feel "beach ready" (hate that marketing term) in this case. Spanish women go into full prepartion mode about March with sunbeds, plastic surgery (highest rate of surgery in Europe) etc. We don´t have that mentality in Ireland of getting "ready" for the Summer weather.

And yet have you seen how some Dublin girls dress on a Friday night any season any temperature?

Daisy03

Vinta81 wrote: »

Yeah I find it odd that when some friends come over they go to the bathroom or another room to put clothes on, I just whip on/whip off I don't care. Some of friends are grand about changing in ront of each other, others would rather a bathroom/spare room to put adress on, it's weird to me but I don't call them on it.

People seem a lot more self conscious here.

I sure hope you wouldn't call them out on it! People should only do what they feel comfortable with. What would you do? Insist they change in front of you?

I don't think that this has anything to do with Catholicism. Perhaps in older generations but not in this day and age. For me its more about privacy. If given the option of a communal changing area or a cubicle, I will chose the cubicle.

I also hate the argument that we should be more like our European neighbours. We have our own culture and identity.. Why drop it because its not considered to be modern enough?

Reward

Daisy03 wrote: »

I sure hope you wouldn't call them out on it! People should only do what they feel comfortable with. What would you do? Insist they change in front of you?

I don't think that this has anything to do with Catholicism. Perhaps in older generations but not in this day and age. For me its more about privacy. If given the option of a communal changing area or a cubicle, I will chose the cubicle.

I also hate the argument that we should be more like our European neighbours. We have our own culture and identity.. Why drop it because its not considered to be modern enough?

I dont think its a case of being modern, if a person has problems with nudity they are sexually repressed and/or uncomfortable in themselves.

I know the forces are outside forces but, the onus is on us to reject them, IMO.

Daisy03

Vinta81 wrote: »

Yeah I find it odd that when some friends come over they go to the bathroom or another room to put clothes on, I just whip on/whip off I don't care. Some of friends are grand about changing in ront of each other, others would rather a bathroom/spare room to put adress on, it's weird to me but I don't call them on it.

People seem a lot more self conscious here.

Reward wrote: »

I dont think its a case of being modern, if a person has problems with nudity they are sexually repressed and/or uncomfortable in themselves.

I know the forces are outside forces but, the onus is on us to reject them, IMO.

So if a person is not comfortable being naked in front of a complete stranger they are sexually repressed?

I am perfectly happy with my body yet I don't wish to parade it in front of strangers.

starlit

Yes, think its a self-conscious thing and embrassing I suppose for us ladies. We're prudish when it comes to a lot of other things. IMO

nesbitt

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

What´s wrong with parading around and loving yourself?? You´re hoping to get to a stage where you can do the same and "no one giving a damn" but it seems to me like you give too much of a damn about other women doing the very same. Can´t you see the irony of your comment? We´ll never get anywhere with that kind of judgemental attitude.

I guess you would have to be there to get what I mean.... It is a fine line between being comfortable, not giving a damn, being naked and just getting on with getting changed in a non sexual way. Posing, preening, and indeed checking other people out and being sneering whilst doing so is not in my view a good result either.

Balance, would be nice....

Jelly2

Daisy03 wrote: »

So if a person is not comfortable being naked in front of a complete stranger they are sexually repressed?

I am perfectly happy with my body yet I don't wish to parade it in front of strangers.

Surely it might be because a person values physical privacy, and the ability to choose who they reveal the physcial selves to, in the same way that humans like to have control over who they reveal their mental or emotional selves to. Why be so dismissive of people's preferences? Not everything is to do with being repressed or uncomfortable in one's skin.

parker kent

Daisy03 wrote: »

So if a person is not comfortable being naked in front of a complete stranger they are sexually repressed?

I am perfectly happy with my body yet I don't wish to parade it in front of strangers.

I don't think it is "parading around" that people are talking about. According to some women here, some are going into cubicles, getting changed under towels etc in changing rooms. From my own experience of changing with a football team or at the gym, the guys don't care or notice who is naked. Nobody is parading around in there, we get out of our gear, shower and change.

So I find it odd that girls are worrying about similar situations. I can understand issues about the beach given our culture, but in a changing room it is not as if people are checking you out.

Ickle Magoo

Reward wrote: »

I dont think its a case of being modern, if a person has problems with nudity they are sexually repressed and/or uncomfortable in themselves.

I know the forces are outside forces but, the onus is on us to reject them, IMO.

You have already been warned about this. If you want to go about espousing statements as absolute fact then do so while providing the evidence otherwise make it very clear that you doing nothing more than giving your personal opinion. Final warning.

Reward

parker kent wrote: »

I don't think it is "parading around" that people are talking about. According to some women here, some are going into cubicles, getting changed under towels etc in changing rooms. From my own experience of changing with a football team or at the gym, the guys don't care or notice who is naked. Nobody is parading around in there, we get out of our gear, shower and change.

So I find it odd that girls are worrying about similar situations. I can understand issues about the beach given our culture, but in a changing room it is not as if people are checking you out.

Right, the framing of being naked as something wrong or "parading", also you said that "not as if people are checking you out" as if thats something to be afraid of. Building our own cell walls here.

Enkidu

Interesting topic!

Of course it doesn't matter if people don't like being naked themselves, but I'm often taken aback by how offended some people are by the very innocent nudity of others.

I remember being at the seaside in Galway with a friend when a man, quite a distance from us, changed without his towel after having a swim. If you had excellent eyesight you might have made out an arse, however that didn't stop a woman near us from saying that the guy was a pervert "exposing himself".

Also I bloody hate the "towel dance", I love being on the continent where nobody gives a ****!

parker kent

Reward wrote: »

Right, the framing of being naked as something wrong or "parading", also you said that "not as if people are checking you out" as if thats something to be afraid of. Building our own cell walls here.

I used parading as I was quoting a previous poster, so they are not my words. That should have been pretty evident from my post and I'm not exactly where you get that I am saying nudity is wrong.

I also mentioned "checking you out" as I was again responding to that poster. If you read the thread, you'll know that I am in favour of a more liberal approach.

Reward

parker kent wrote: »

I used parading as I was quoting a previous poster, so they are not my words. That should have been pretty evident from my post and I'm not exactly where you get that I am saying nudity is wrong.

I also mentioned "checking you out" as I was again responding to that poster. If you read the thread, you'll know that I am in favour of a more liberal approach.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you when you picked up on the labeling of nudity as "parading" as if it were wrong, sorry that wasn't clear.

As for "checking you out", I was just noting how it might have framed being checked out as something thats bad or something to fear, when its actually normal behaviour.

caseyann

Enkidu wrote: »

Interesting topic!

Of course it doesn't matter if people don't like being naked themselves, but I'm often taken aback by how offended some people are by the very innocent nudity of others.

I remember being at the seaside in Galway with a friend when a man, quite a distance from us, changed without his towel after having a swim. If you had excellent eyesight you might have made out an arse, however that didn't stop a woman near us from saying that the guy was a pervert "exposing himself".

Also I bloody hate the "towel dance", I love being on the continent where nobody gives a ****!

If man or woman stripped naked on a beach with my kids around i would make sure he got his marching orders.Its a public beach he wants to go nude he goes to nudist beach.
And if i feel uncomfortable with someone being nude on a beach thats my right.Calling people prude is ridiculous for not wanting people naked around them.
Yet men call women sluts if they wear a mini skirt or low cut top who are asking for attention.:rolleyes:

Innocent nudity:rolleyes:,some things are meant to be kept private and thats one of them.

neuro-praxis

I honestly think our self consciousness is a product of the perfect-body-obsessed media. I am not a Catholic and never have been, but I did attend Catholic schools like most Irish people, and never heard a peep about being ashamed of my body.

However my mother passed on to me an ethic of modesty and thanks to the magazines I was reading, I believed my body was horrible, and did my level best to cover it up.

Frankly I don't care anymore. My body is an instrument, not an ornament!

Reward

caseyann wrote: »

If man or woman stripped naked on a beach with my kids around i would make sure he got his marching orders.Its a public beach he wants to go nude he goes to nudist beach.
And if i feel uncomfortable with someone being nude on a beach thats my right.Calling people prude is ridiculous for not wanting people naked around them.
Yet men call women sluts if they wear a mini skirt or low cut top who are asking for attention.:rolleyes:

Innocent nudity:rolleyes:,some things are meant to be kept private and thats one of them.

Well, you would be training your children to view nudity as something thats wrong in that case and as well as seeing it as your right to have people that don't cover up to your requirements on the beach removed, you are rolling your eyes at men that make comments about women not covering up to theirs.

btw wearing low cut tops and short skirts is mainly about deliberate sexual exhibitionism, the example of the man on the beach wasn't deliberate sexual exhibitionism, it was just changing in a secluded area of the beach.

Enkidu

caseyann wrote: »

If man or woman stripped naked on a beach with my kids around i would make sure he got his marching orders.Its a public beach he wants to go nude he goes to nudist beach.

I can understand what you are saying, but the guy wasn't walking around in front of us or near anybody. He changed, facing away from us, into his clothing. I honestly don't think this makes him a pervert or that he should have got marching orders.

And if i feel uncomfortable with someone being nude on a beach thats my right. Calling people prude is ridiculous for not wanting people naked around them.

Yes, you have a right to be uncomfortable, but so what?

Yet men call women sluts if they wear a mini skirt or low cut top who are asking for attention.:rolleyes:

How does this relate to what I said? In fact it supports what I'm saying, showing a little bit of flesh is unnecessarily linked too strongly to sexuality.

Innocent nudity:rolleyes:,some things are meant to be kept private and thats one of them.

How do you know it is "meant" to be kept private?

Again, I will say that I'm not advocating people hang out nude on a non-nudist beach in front of children. I'm simply saying that there are obviously times when from context (a fairly empty beach, guy miles away from anybody) nudity is not sexual. However for some people that does not matter, nudity=pervert, case closed. Of course they have the right to think that (in fact unless I could rewire neurons how would I affect that right), but I can still think it's stupid as well.

LegacyUser

Personally, I'm glad of the Irish "cover-up" mentality.

I suffer from a non-contagious but highly unsightly skin condition - psoriasis. Although it affects most of my body, I hide it, and even most of my immediate family don't know I have it.

When I'm away on holidays, and have to share a room with friends, it might look a bit odd that I bring my clothes into the bathroom and get changed there - but at least, as an Irish woman, it's pretty acceptable.

I've an alright body (as regards shape) and, if it weren't for my skin, I'd have no problem getting changed in front of people. However it's up to ME how much or how little of my body I want to reveal to people. I would never ever think anything strange about another person getting changed in front of me - but equally, if I choose to get changed in private, I would appreciate that others respect that I have the right to do so without explaining myself.

parker kent

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I honestly think our self consciousness is a product of the perfect-body-obsessed media. I am not a Catholic and never have been, but I did attend Catholic schools like most Irish people, and never heard a peep about being ashamed of my body.

However my mother passed on to me an ethic of modesty and thanks to the magazines I was reading, I believed my body was horrible, and did my level best to cover it up.

The point being made by myself and others is that people such as your mother grew up in a Catholic society where sex and the human body were treated as something to be hidden away and not spoken about. So the ethic of modesty your mother passed to you, comes directly from the Catholic Church dominated culture that all our parents and grandparents were raised in. We are not directly influenced by the Church nowadays, but we are still indirectly influenced through the culture they helped create.

That is my take on it anyway!