Lost my belief

sashafierce

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Fanny Cradock

Welcome to the forum.

Whether it is heaven or heaven followed by new creation or some other belief that I'm not familiar with I'm sure all of the professing Christians here believe in an after life.

It might actually help to tell us a little about yourself - and by that I mean a little about the faith you once had and now reject. I ask because there are plenty of doctrines and beliefs associated with God and Christianity that I don't believe in either, and I'm sure just about every other Christian would say the same thing.

sashafierce

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Onesimus

sashafierce wrote: »

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Hey sasha, Great book here for you. You can buy it online OR you can pm me with your address ( that is if you trust me with it ) and I'll send you down a free copy. I'm sure the former would be more preferable for you though as giving out personal details to strangers online can be quite risky :pac:

Fanny Cradock

sashafierce wrote: »

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I'm sorry for the loss in your life. However, if you excuse the crassness of my question, I wonder why you think that a medical understanding of death - which isn't as cut and dry as you might think - is a cast iron defector to the concept of an afterlife? It's not like Christians haven't felt death's sting before. Christians dying just like everyone else - and have done since the very first.

I think you are going about this all wrong. It seems to me that you are searching for something that will allay your existential fears, rather than searching for an explanation - the metaphysical truth - as to why anything exists and what that means. In a sense I think this is analogous to somebody entering into a relationship simply to prevent loneliness or boredom or whatever, rather than doing so out of love for the other person.

As I see it, you have two choices.

Firstly, you can accept life for what some would have us believe it to be - 80 odd years (40 if you live in certain parts of the world) of existence and then nothing. There is no overarching meaning to life, you simply make up your own. And if you happen live a good life that is filled with joy and happiness and relatively little suffering then so much the better. If you don't, well, thems the breaks.

The universe is finite - and it like us will eventually die. That is what you have to make peace with. I gather plenty of people do and get on with their lives - some in ways that put us believers to shame.

Alternatively, you can explore the possibility that life has a purpose above and beyond whatever we make it to be. In other words, there is a God who loves us and has a plan for us. This is the view of Christianity - which, incidentally, can not be reduced down to "getting to heaven".

Perhaps you would enjoy this talk by a chap called Os Guinness. It's entitled The Journey: A Thinking Person's Quest for Meaning.

kelly1

sashafierce wrote: »

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Hello Sasha, I sorry to hear of your loss.

I think a more fundamental question to ask is whether you believe in God. I don't see any kind of afterlife being possible without God. Do you mind sharing your views on this?

God bless,
Noel.

strobe

sashafierce wrote: »

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(to the mods: not sure if this is appropriate so delete away if it is not)

Hi Sasha, I just wanted to make a suggestion to you that once this thread has run it's course and you have listened to what people have to say. If you still find yourself in the same position, one of no longer believing in an after life and finding it difficult to except this belief, if it's still keeping you up at night. That you might start a thread in the Atheism & Agnosticism forum. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614 A lot of people on there, including myself, have gone through a similar thing to what you are going through, losing their belief and then finding it very difficult and upsetting to live with the idea that when someone dies, that's it, no after life. It might be beneficial to hear what people who have been through what you have, have to say about their own experiences of it. How they went from being kept up at night by it to learning to live with or embrace it.

sashafierce

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steamengine

Stairways to Heaven by Lorna Byrne, available in most good book shops. I hope it inspires you !

Plowman

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Fanny Cradock

sashafierce wrote: »

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I'm pretty sure that no one here believes in magic either.

While you are considering purchasing the books suggested, I would encourage you to listen to the talk I previously mentioned. Perhaps it might speak to you whatever unease lies within.

I would also encourage you to listen/ watch this talk by the very personable Tim Keller. It's entitled Belief in an Age of Skepticism? and you can download it if you sign up or just look at it from the website if you're not into that. And speaking of Keller, I think that the following is an apt quote for your circumstances.

The only way to doubt Christianity rightly and fairly is to discern the alternate belief under each of your doubts and then ask yourself what reasons you have for believing it. How do you know your belief is true? It would be inconsistent to require more justification for Christian belief than you do for your own, but that is frequently what happens. In fairness you must doubt your doubts. My thesis is that if you come to recognize the beliefs on which your doubts about Christianity are based, and if you seek as much proof for those beliefs as you seek from Christians for theirs – you will discover that your doubts are not as solid as they first appeared.

It's good to ask questions, sashafierce. "The unexamined life", as Socrates said, "is not worth living". Whatever answers you finally settle on I think that you should be applauded for seeking answers to what it is life (and death) is all about.

kelly1

Sasha, do you pray? Would you consider asking God to help you? To comfort you and clear up your thoughts and give you hope and faith?

More basically, do you believe God cares about us?

In this forum, we believe that God send His only Son to this planet to teach us how to love and also to pay the price for our sins by dying on a cross. Because of the teachings of Jesus and the fact that Jesus died on a cross out of love for us, we believe very firmly that God loves us and cares for us and wants us to be happy with Him into eternity. We believe that God IS Love and that all good comes from God, not just that He is good. He wants to share His own happiness with us and this is why He created us. So it makes no sense that death is the end. It's really the beginning. We are made for love and to love and not just for an average lifetime.

God bless,
Noel.

BTW, for reasons that I won't go into here, I'd steer clear of Lorna Byrne if I were you.

tdv123

Onesimus wrote: »

Hey sasha, Great book here for you. You can buy it online OR you can pm me with your address ( that is if you trust me with it ) and I'll send you down a free copy. I'm sure the former would be more preferable for you though as giving out personal details to strangers online can be quite risky :pac:

Lol, so Michael H. Brown has actually been to Heaven, Hell & Purgatory then?

Onesimus

tdv123 wrote: »

Lol, so Michael H. Brown has actually been to Heaven, Hell & Purgatory then?

This response from you was inevitable. It is my fault for not expanding upon the content of the book. The research Michael did is of many who have been there and got a wake up call in life. It is packed with testimonies of such people who have been there.

sashafierce

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Onesimus

sashafierce wrote: »

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Although physical human bodies die, human souls never die. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) teaches that every spiritual soul “is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection” (CCC 366).

So at the moment of death the soul separates the body, is judged immediately, and enters either heaven (immediately or through purgatory) or hell. “Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—through a purification or immediately,—or immediate and everlasting damnation” (CCC 1022). (For scriptural evidence of this see Lk 16:22 & 23:43; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23.)

Every soul will unite with its resurrected body just prior to the Last Judgment (“judgment day”), when Christ returns:

“In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life…

“The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death” (CCC 1039-1040).
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=22563&highlight=what+happens+when+we+die%3F

Catholic answer forums is a great place to ask an official apologist of the Church with important questions about the faith. You can either submit a new question or use the search engine in order to find someone who has already submitted a similar question to yourself.

georgieporgy

sashafierce wrote: »

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Sasha, this link to the story of a survivor of the Rwanda genocide may help

http://www.spiritdaily.com/immaculeebook.htm

NoQuarter

Sasha,

Welcome to the real world. Sure it would be great if there was a wonderful afterlife but theres no evidence to suggest such a place. (Catholic world teaches a lot of things, but all those teachings came from a simple man, if at this stage in human history we dont know where we came from, theres no way anyone 2000 years ago could have known). When i first realised i didnt believe I felt like it was a bad thing and that theres nothing to look forward to but i was wrong.

Now its time to open your eyes to whats real and you'll realise that rather than waiting to die to go to a magical place, instead were already there. I think when you die its the same as when you sleep and dont dream, ie, nothingness. Or its the same as before you were born, again, nothingness. And there was nothing to be afraid of before you were born and likewise theres nothing to be afraid of after your gone.

Welcome to the world of atheism, it truly is a great mindset to be in. Your finally free!

sashafierce

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NoQuarter

sashafierce wrote: »

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Sasha,

I understand how you feel, and its only natural that people feel like that. But if you maybe look at a bit of astronomy you can learn a lot and really learn how insignificant each human is. It sounds like a bad thing but really its not, its just life.

Instead of there being a creator of everything which in my opinion is complete nonsense (and even if it wasnt, how someone on earth can know about this and teach it to others is just not logical) instead everything is biological and natural, were just mad of cells and atoms and once our brain is switched off, then its off. That would be my guess.

Its just so logical to think that when we sleep and our brain switches off, there is nothing. And similarly, before we were born there was nothing. So how people can come to the conclusion that when we die, we walk through some magical gates to another world is beyond me.

Consider yourself lucky that you finally realised what a massive hoax religion is. you should look into it a bit and you wont believe the stuff some people come out with, ie, a couple of posts before mine!!

Let religion go and in a little while you'll find peace with it.

Fanny Cradock

If you want to continue posting here I suggest you post with a little more tact.

sashafierce

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catbear

To the OP, when I was 16 a friend died suddenly and it shuck it me badly. Like you I thought was his existence in vain. But what struck me more was the heightened sense of my own mortality. I'd never lost anyone before in my life so this was new to me. I don't if what you seek is in either religion or spirituality but I believe if you're able to ask then you're ready for the answer.

I don't know if your boyfriend will ever meet his friend again, all I can say is that if we can exist in this life, we can exist in any life. Seeking the answers in existing religious and spiritual codes may not be enough, it's a personal thing. I guess you'll just trash it out until something settles within you but don't dismiss it as nothingness, do you have to have a purpose to exist?

NoQuarter

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

If you want to continue posting here I suggest you post with a little more tact.

I think I have been quite tactful but fair enough i will tone it down a notch.

sashafierce wrote: »

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I feel the same myself, sure who wouldnt!

I see people writing things on facebook and saying oh he's looking down on us. And thats lovely and all but who are we kidding. I feel devestated by my recent realisation. To the point that i feel so stupid for not thinking it before, im a rather obsessive person when somethings in my head its there no matter what!

I do however really appreciate all the responses just having somewhere to write how i feel makes it somewhat less painful.

Likewise with your facebook thing I attended mass a few nights ago for a deceased neighbour, these are things you just have to learn to tolerate. Just look into it some more and youll be amazed at what you find. And dont worry about your devastation, that feeling will turn to relief after time and that I can promise you.

sashafierce

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NoQuarter

catbear wrote: »

don't dismiss it as nothingness, do you have to have a purpose to exist?

Nice post catbear.

My girlfriend uses a similar argument when we discuss it all the time.

Just realise that there is no need for there to be any afterlife to have a purpose in this one. Some people who believe in heaven waste their lives waiting for the next. We have an amazing life here, that in itself is enough.

NoQuarter

sashafierce wrote: »

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Its a nice quote alright but you have to be careful because we DO exist in this life, assuming we CAN exist in any life is just pure speculation. Whos to even say there is any other life to exist in?

kelly1

sashafierce wrote: »

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Sasha, I really think it would be unwise to simply settle for the view that we disappear when we die. I think the question of life after death deserves to be looked into very seriously. NoQuarter is doing you a big disservice IMO.

If we cease to exist when we die, then what is the point/meaning of life on earth, especially for someone who suffers terribly through poverty, injustice, maltreatment or illness? Do those who commit evil acts get away scott free? Do those who live a good life in the service of others get no reward? Should we live life with the goal of seeking maximum personal pleasure or is there a higher purpose?

It's worth thinking about!

God bless,
Noel.

NoQuarter

kelly1 wrote: »

NoQuarter is doing you a big disservice IMO.


It's worth thinking about!

Well Noel i have thought about it.

And sure i could spare the disservice. But would it be the truth?

Sasha has to decide herself whether she would prefer to live a life that is written in a book or accept that we just dont know the answers and cant just fill in the blanks ourselves because thats the easy way out.

If we cease to exist when we die, then what is the point/meaning of life on earth

See post #26.

sashafierce

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NoQuarter

That about sums up my thinking!

Best of luck OP.

catbear

I'm nodding off too and for what it's worth I am no wiser than you. It's enough for me to miss them to know that their life meant something. Good night.

Birroc

NoQuarter wrote: »

Sasha,

Welcome to the real world. Sure it would be great if there was a wonderful afterlife but theres no evidence to suggest such a place. (Catholic world teaches a lot of things, but all those teachings came from a simple man, if at this stage in human history we dont know where we came from, theres no way anyone 2000 years ago could have known). When i first realised i didnt believe I felt like it was a bad thing and that theres nothing to look forward to but i was wrong.

Now its time to open your eyes to whats real and you'll realise that rather than waiting to die to go to a magical place, instead were already there. I think when you die its the same as when you sleep and dont dream, ie, nothingness. Or its the same as before you were born, again, nothingness. And there was nothing to be afraid of before you were born and likewise theres nothing to be afraid of after your gone.

Welcome to the world of atheism, it truly is a great mindset to be in. Your finally free!

Great post NoQuarter. It actually is quite uplifting if you take it the right way. Thanks.

kelly1

NoQuarter wrote: »

Well Noel i have thought about it.

And sure i could spare the disservice. But would it be the truth?

Sasha has to decide herself whether she would prefer to live a life that is written in a book or accept that we just dont know the answers and cant just fill in the blanks ourselves because thats the easy way out.

Atheists keep saying there is no proof but there a lots of strong arguments for God's existence. What I'm saying is that faith is more than wishful thinking. It is based on evidence even if it's not scientifically verifiable. Christianity for instance is based mostly on the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, even if the evidence is 2000 years old. There are many good arguments for the historicity of the resurrection. Gary Habermas would be worth looking up on this particular subject.

Fanny Cradock

sashafierce wrote: »

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Yes and no. While I believe in a spiritual existence, Christianity ultimately looks towards the hope of a physical existence after this life. Think of it as "life after life after death" to quote one theologian.

I think probably you are looking for somebody to assure you that it will be just fine. There is no harm in that, of course. But if you don't go deeper than those words of comfort - and dismiss your worries in the process - that would seem to be a terrible shame. You posted here because you have suffered an existential jolt. I think it only fair to take the time to explore the answers yourself. That means going above and beyond whatever assurance you receive on a forum.

strobe

kelly1 wrote: »

If we cease to exist when we die, then what is the point/meaning of life on earth, especially for someone who suffers terribly through poverty, injustice, maltreatment or illness? Do those who commit evil acts get away scott free? Do those who live a good life in the service of others get no reward? Should we live life with the goal of seeking maximum personal pleasure or is there a higher purpose?

It's worth thinking about!

God bless,
Noel.

An argument could be made that the point/meaning of life, if you want to see one, is to help those people that suffer through poverty, injustice, maltreatment or illness. Or to try and make it so many of them do not have to suffer through those things in the first place. Not just hope that when their suffering is over and they die they get an eternal party.

Do those who commit evil acts get away scott free? Our prisons would seem to suggest not. Apart from that very few people beyond the psychopathic can commit evil acts and not wake up in the middle of the night from nightmares or be wracked by guilt in their lives. Although I'm sure some can. So my view would be very few people that commit evil acts get away scott free, they are punished or punish themselves. But what of the people that commit evil acts and then repent and convert to Christianity? These are granted eternal paradise unless I'm mistaken?

Do those who live a good life in the service of others get no reward?
My neighbour who turned 70 a couple of years ago has spent all her adult life working for others. In the community, she volunteered in the local community center and was always there for a chat with the parents or kids who needed someone to talk to. She also worked for the Simon community and I'm sure has given her time to other good causes. For an old bird she never seems to stop moving.

Around 450 people turned up for her 70th birthday party in the community center. From kids 8 or 9 years of age that know her as the nice old women around the estate, to old lads of 80 who she got off the streets when they were younger. I don't think I've ever seen a happier person as she sat there as everyone came up and gave her a small present or just said thank you to her. If she had of known the party was planned she would have been the first person to demand it was cancelled as she wouldn't want people making a fuss.

If you were to suggest to her that her life lived in the service of others has thus far gone unrewarded, I think she would still be laughing at you when she eventually shuffles off this world.

Should we live life with the goal of seeking maximum personal pleasure or is there a higher purpose?
Pleasure is nice, even better is helping others to experience it. Most people, atheist, Christian or Hindu far prefer the pleasure of seeing a child smile when you give it a present than getting a present themselves.

Seeking maximum pleasure and happiness and helping others to do the same.....That sounds about as high a purpose as I can possibly imagine. Next time your kid smiles or laughs because you did something pleasant for them and made them happy tell me I'm wrong.

Think about it man.

Peace out,
Strobe.

antiskeptic

strobe wrote: »

Seeking maximum pleasure and happiness and helping others to do the same.....That sounds about as high a purpose as I can possibly imagine. Next time your kid smiles or laughs tell me I'm wrong.

Which is better: to have a child smile at you or be a child and have a parent smile at you?

God, my father, smiling at me his son is better than anything else I've experienced. I've to tell you I think you're wrong.

strobe

antiskeptic wrote: »

Which is better: to have a child smile at you or be a child and have a parent smile at you?

God, my father, smiling at me his son is better than anything else I've experienced. I've to tell you I think you're wrong.

I have no children yet Skep so I am unable to answer. But I have heard parents including my own say that seeing their child happy is the greatest feeling in the world.

I'll be sure to get back to you when me and missus Strobe procreate if you want an answer based on direct personal experience.

Have you children yourself?

Fanny Cradock

strobe wrote: »

An argument could be made that the point/meaning of life, if you want to see one, is to help those people that suffer through poverty, injustice, maltreatment or illness. Or to try and make it so many of them do not have to suffer through those things in the first place.

I think the point being made is that while a person might choose to be a good example of humanity (assuming we can actually agree on what that entails) there is no overarching reason why they should be such an example.

strobe wrote: »

Do those who commit evil acts get away scott free? Our prisons would seem to suggest not.

It suggests nothing of the sort. That our prisons are full (and then some!) merely suggests that there are at least enough people deemed worthy to fill them. It says nothing about the number of criminals who are smart enough, violent enough or lucky enough to currently not be locked up. It also says nothing about the justice of the sentences handed out.

Speaking of justice, our prisons are often places where it is thin on the ground and criminal activity is common.

Apart from that very few people beyond the psychopathic can commit evil acts and not wake up in the middle of the night from nightmares or be wracked by guilt in their lives.

I would imagine that the guilt of the criminal is often of cold comfort to the victims. Added to this, I would think that our ability to justify a wrong deed over against the injustice forced upon the victim is a fairly common trait within us all. It is, in other words, easy to convince ourselves the the injured party in some way deserved it or that their pain isn't as bad as they make out or what we feel. In summary, it is the ease we all slip into the justification: "They had it coming!", "What I didn't wasn't all that bad!" and "What about me? I'm suffering too!".

Indeed, this what Christianity says about us and God. We are the wrongdoers and God is the wronged party.

Although I'm sure some can. So my view would be very few people that commit evil acts get away scott free, they are punished or punish themselves.

I disagree. I would have thought that the the implosion of our economy - with all the unchecked and unpunished greed that raised our financial institutions to the ground - is evidence enough that whatever hope you place in justice of the courts, or the common decency of man, is misplaced.

There are overcrowded prison cells that should have "white collar" inmates but don't. If these criminals - and that is what I believe them to be - were really contrite then there would be some admission of guilt. Instead, what we see their desperate "tooth and nail" fight to hold onto their wealth. The system is manipulated in such a way that they protect their assets over against whatever notion you or I might have of their civic duty or what is required to be a good example of a human.

But what of the people that commit evil acts and then repent and convert to Christianity? These are granted eternal paradise unless I'm mistaken?

That would be up to God. But I believe that this highlights your lack of understanding of what Christianity is about if this is causing you trouble.

If you were to suggest to her that her life lived in the service of others has thus far gone unrewarded, I think she would still be laughing at you when she eventually shuffles off this world.

I don't believe that anyone has suggested otherwise. Of course, the inverse of your neighbour is any long-lived dictator or thug who did incalculable harm got away with it. Unfortunately there are plenty of them out there.

Pleasure is nice, even better is helping other to experience it.

Well, that is your opinion. But not everyone will agree. They may even point out that what you are talking about are often two mutually exclusive goals.

strobe

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think the point being
....[.......]....often two mutually exclusive goals.

All good points as usual for you Fanny. I'm off to have a shower and then heading out for the night, but I'll more than likely throw up a drunken Friday night response about 4:00am as usual for me. Got to get my weekly dose of Earthly pleasure in, you see.

Fanny Cradock

strobe wrote: »

but I'll more than likely throw up a drunken Friday night response about 4:00am as usual for me. Got to get my weekly dose of Earthly pleasure in, you see.

Nothing quite like the "finished-my-kebab-and-just-off-the-nitelink-and now-I-need-to-correct-somebody-who-is-wrong-on-the-internet" 4am drunken post. I look forward to it :pac:

PDN

strobe wrote: »

I'll more than likely throw up a drunken Friday night response about 4:00am as usual for me.

How will we tell the difference from your usual posts?

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

How will we tell the difference from your usual posts?

Zing!

strobe

PDN wrote: »

How will we tell the difference from your usual posts?

Better grammer and speling most probably.

Fanny Cradock

I'm waiting for the FireFox extension that will clear up the grammar and punctuation end of things.

sashafierce

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Plowman

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lmaopml

Hiya Sasha,

I lost my dad a year and a half ago...and I would be lying if I said it didn't 'cross my mind'...to see a medium or whatever, I work with a girl who thinks they are brilliant...just to speak to him one more time would be so cool...but even 'thinking' about that seemed odd to me if his time was done here, his time was done, that was 'his' journey...not mine, he deserves his rest - really! He had to deal with me..lol!

Truth is, I find it difficult to have faith sometimes, it's a real 'journey' for me, and I have even less faith in mystics, palm readers, mediums etc. etc. especially the Hollywood versions....what a pile of steaming shyte all those guys on TV talk about being posessed etc by all and sundry...what kinda crap is that?

Yeah right...

Sasha, it's really hard to know yourself these days, know who 'you' are as opposed to what society tells you, you 'should' be, it's also really difficult to find yourself and then face and state your case...but that's just the backdrop really..

It's your 'journey' though, and you are asking all the right questions, it's just that the answers to those questions need some deliberation and investigation...not everything is as straight forward as it seems..it takes some concentration and commitment to know yourself..

Know yourself, and then investigate with a thirst...nobody would condemn you for that..! Good luck X

Some really cool links provided on this thread; anything from CS Lewis to Guinness....

..listen to them, it's really the best you will get from any online 'forum'...and you are only starting out.

sashafierce

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Fanny Cradock

lmaopml wrote: »

Hiya Sasha,

I lost my dad a year and a half ago..

Sorry to hear that

The Mad Hatter

sashafierce wrote: »

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Occult aside, most mediums are charlatans who feed on desperation, guilt and loneliness. Don't give them the pleasure.