Small fast cars?

Squall19

Tragedy wrote: »

I went from a 170BHP remapped diesel to a 190BHP N/A petrol, the diesel felt way, WAY faster but when I actually watched the speedo in the petrol I could see there was no comparison.

I doubt very much that there is no comparison, an 190 n/a petrol is no rocket in the real world.I would say there wouldnt be too much between the same weight 170bhp 400nm diesel and 190bhp 200nm n/a petrol from 40-60mph, 50-80mph, 30-50mph etc.My mps mazda puts out 300bhp from a 2.3 turbo petrol and the diesel wouldn't be blown out of the water like you may think under those tests.

20-40mph in a mapped fabia/ibiza 170bhp+ diesel is around 2.5 secs, 30-70 is around 6 secs, 0-60 is low 7's.Diesel's are very quick now, I met a 335d on the motorway and you would want some serious machine to beat that, my mps didnt have a chance to beat it, without some serious work.It accelerated like all hell from 50-90mph.

andyseadog

pitching an n/a petrol and turbo diesel of the same bhp figure against each other, the diesel will most likely have the edge time and time again.

you said it yourself there, the diesel has literally twice as much torque

Atlantic Dawn

Corolla T-Sport, plenty of them on Donedeal, 189 horsies and it won't attract Scangeraguans looking for a race at the lights but has enough power should you be wanting one (on a closed private road ofcourse )

Squall19

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Corolla T-Sport, plenty of them on Donedeal, 189 horsies and it won't attract Scangeraguans looking for a race at the lights but has enough power should you be wanting one (on a closed private road ofcourse )

Would be a great buy alrite, hard to beat that one for value and performance.

sean1141

seat ibiza cupra??
http://pistonheads.com/sales/2189518.htm

http://pistonheads.com/sales/2348801.htm

knifey_spoonie

The Yaris T Sport aint a bad little car, but its still a tall car, It does have a Hydraulic steering system rather than the normal (electric), Brakes are from a MR2, its about 30mm lower and has small chassis braces underneath. Its a fair bit quicker than a fiesta zetec S.

I had one and loved it, kept up with alot of cars without being boy racerish. I also had great fun with 1.4 "type R" civic's.

Tragedy

Squall19 wrote: »

I doubt very much that there is no comparison, an 190 n/a petrol is no rocket in the real world.I would say there wouldnt be too much between the same weight 170bhp 400nm diesel and 190bhp 200nm n/a petrol from 40-60mph, 50-80mph, 30-50mph etc.My mps mazda puts out 300bhp from a 2.3 turbo petrol and the diesel wouldn't be blown out of the water like you may think under those tests.

20-40mph in a mapped fabia/ibiza 170bhp+ diesel is around 2.5 secs, 30-70 is around 6 secs, 0-60 is low 7's.Diesel's are very quick now, I met a 335d on the motorway and you would want some serious machine to beat that, my mps didnt have a chance to beat it, without some serious work.It accelerated like all hell from 50-90mph.

Research horsepower, torque, rpm and how they all work together to derive acceleration. Then look up a typical turbodiesels torque/hp curve and do the same with a petrol.

A fabia vrs tdi keeping up with an S4? Uh huh..

And if your MPS is mapped to 300bhp, you shouldn't have trouble keeping up with a stock 335d from a 50-90. 335i's have been consistently tested to be faster than 335d's under all kinds of testing(0-60, 1/4 mile, 50-90, etc etc).

bmw535d

Tragedy wrote: »

Research horsepower, torque, rpm and how they all work together to derive acceleration. Then look up a typical turbodiesels torque/hp curve and do the same with a petrol.

A fabia vrs tdi keeping up with an S4? Uh huh..

And if your MPS is mapped to 300bhp, you shouldn't have trouble keeping up with a stock 335d from a 50-90. 335i's have been consistently tested to be faster than 335d's under all kinds of testing(0-60, 1/4 mile, 50-90, etc etc).

how so? if his mazda has 300bhp- and the 335d has 286bhp but twice the torque, it would be a very tight race,

there isn't that much in it in standard form.

cdsb46

ok not the first choice of most guys, but a mate of mine has the fiat 500 abrath, and wow the power of that is savage

andyseadog

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

The Yaris T Sport aint a bad little car, but its still a tall car, It does have a Hydraulic steering system rather than the normal (electric), Brakes are from a MR2, its about 30mm lower and has small chassis braces underneath. Its a fair bit quicker than a fiesta zetec S.

I had one and loved it, kept up with alot of cars without being boy racerish. I also had great fun with 1.4 "type R" civic's.

thats interesting! i didnt know the brakes were borrowed from an MR2. i have one right now and it really is a fun little car, never misses a beat.

was.deevey

How about one the the above ... Should cost ya nothing on Tax @ only 659cc (turbocharged!) and can be souped up a bucketload easily enough...apparently same engine in both.


****The mazda might be a lil tricky in carparks :P *****

Zubeneschamali

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

won't attract Scangeraguans looking for a race at the lights

I'm not sure if you're having a go at people from Knackeregua or Skangernavia here, but either way, don't forget about the Chav Republic.

Ferris

mx-5 1.8

120d

MRS

RWD all the way

Tragedy

bmw535d wrote: »

how so? if his mazda has 300bhp- and the 335d has 286bhp but twice the torque, it would be a very tight race,

there isn't that much in it in standard form.

who said it had twice this torque? According to squall his puts out 480Nm with remap versus 580 for the 335d. Also, I've trawled bimmerforums and e90owners many times for info on 335i vs 335d (trying to argue the point that diesels are as fast as petrols) and the 335i always comes out tops. Just like it should. Why doesn't a truck with mammoth torque accelerate like the bejaysus? Sure weight is an issue, but the main issues are power bands and gearing., 6

Tragedy

Tragedy wrote: »

power bands and gearing., 6

That is bang on the money, acceleration is caused by torque at the wheels, diesels have f loads of engine torque but in comparison to a petrol car they also have long gearing. Torque at the wheels isn't actually that high most of the time (across the rpm range) even with loads of gear changes and 6 speed boxes to try and take advantage of the huge slap of torque that is low down.


When crusing about in a diesel (even a sh1tty one) it feels potentially fast as there is oodles of torque as you are generally at 2000rpm ish when knocking around. However when you hammer a diesel you soon notice that it doesn't go much faster than when you give it a jab of throttle when crusing.

Look at old ish Hondas, the CTR had f all torque in comparison to a diesel (and lots of petrols too when you think about it) but gets to 60 prompto in a car weighing 1100 ish kg. If the 170bhp Fabia loads of torque yoke is so great how come the CTR is not much slower ?

Squall19

Tragedy wrote: »

Research horsepower, torque, rpm and how they all work together to derive acceleration. Then look up a typical turbodiesels torque/hp curve and do the same with a petrol.

A fabia vrs tdi keeping up with an S4? Uh huh..

And if your MPS is mapped to 300bhp, you shouldn't have trouble keeping up with a stock 335d from a 50-90. 335i's have been consistently tested to be faster than 335d's under all kinds of testing(0-60, 1/4 mile, 50-90, etc etc).

S4's are no supercars, even with 345bhp it cant shake off a mazda 3 with 268bhp.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match1203-1388.htm

Mazda is quicker in the 1/4 mile, quicker from 0-160kmh, quicker from 80-120kmh etc.S4 is good off the line with its quattro but once rolling its only hot hatch quick.Of course my fabia couldn't have kept up with an s4 ( thats why I bought an mps ) but its not way way quicker like you would think.I said an 190bhp na petrol isnt much quicker than a 170bhp same weight diesel and I stand by that, one poster said there is no comparison, there is they are pretty close when rolling up to jail speeds.

By the way a 335d is very quick no denying that, it pushed me and i wasnt gaining just staying with him, maybe it was mapped I dont now.Have a look at this, the S4 with 345bhp cant shake that either.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match1543-1203.htm

af_thefragile

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/1752364

Its not powerful per say, but its mad fun!!
And its only 100eur to tax!!
Would also be mad cheap on petrol as long as you don't take it on a motorway. I don't imagine insurance would be very high either due to the small engine but they might class it in a higher bracket due to the "roadster" and sporty image.

Infact I want that car!! But I can't afford to spend €7k on a car...

pajo1981

andyseadog wrote: »

pitching an n/a petrol and turbo diesel of the same bhp figure against each other, the diesel will most likely have the edge time and time again.

you said it yourself there, the diesel has literally twice as much torque

Not at the wheels it won't.

Don't forget, a diesels rev range is lower -and so its gears are taller.

Tragedy

Squall19 wrote: »

S4's are no supercars, even with 345bhp it cant shake off a mazda 3 with 268bhp.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match1203-1388.htm

Mazda is quicker in the 1/4 mile, quicker from 0-160kmh, quicker from 80-120kmh etc.S4 is good off the line with its quattro but once rolling its only hot hatch quick.

Here's one of the bigger car magazine in the states figures on the Audi S4 Manual, , the Mazda 3 MPS, the BMW 335D and the BMW 335i. All from the same magazine, so testing, practices and methods should be consistent across all.

What do you see? The fact that power wins(when gearing and weight isn't an issue).

but its not way way quicker like you would think.I said an 190bhp na petrol isnt much quicker than a 170bhp same weight diesel and I stand by that, one poster said there is no comparison, there is they are pretty close when rolling up to jail speeds.

No, there isn't a comparison between my 170BHP diesel and 190BHP petrol. The diesel has a usuable power band of ~1500 revs, the petrol has 3000. The petrol is geared aggressively for max acceleration, the diesel isn't. Peak power and gearing win, every time when weight isn't an issue.

By the way a 335d is very quick no denying that, it pushed me and i wasnt gaining just staying with him, maybe it was mapped I dont now.Have a look at this, the S4 with 345bhp cant shake that either.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match1543-1203.htm

Wouldn't this be a more illuminating link? http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel1543-1203.htm
Bear in mind, that's the estate with worse aerodynamics and extra weight versus the S4 Saloon. Still manages to beat the 335d handily in almost everything.

You're arguing against the most elementary physics. Torque is torque, power is power.

dgt

How about a Seicento turbo if yo can find one? Cant get much smaller
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVBMlYWWcvc

Or maybe a Fiat Uno 1.8, also if you can find one.... (skip to 28)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0uY5m_sNcE

stevenmu

Times must have changed a lot, back when I was a young lad looking for a small fast car, a 335d or an S4 never would have entered the equation.

vectra

Smart car fitted with a Hayabusa engine... Sorted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBDXiXMj9K4
For everything else there is mastercard

af_thefragile

vectra wrote: »

Smart car fitted with a Hayabusa engine... Sorted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBDXiXMj9K4
For everything else there is mastercard

That thing is going to biblically understeer!!
Actually anything above 60kmph and its not going to steer at all!

It'ld make more sense fitting that engine in a smart roadster. Actually that's something I'ld really like to see. Would make a brilliant car!
Would also need to chuck out that stupid semi-auto gearbox and replace it with a proper manual too...

Atomic Pineapple

stevenmu wrote: »

Times must have changed a lot, back when I was a young lad looking for a small fast car, a 335d or an S4 never would have entered the equation.

There not entering the equation in reality!

vectra

af_thefragile wrote: »

That thing is going to biblically understeer!!
Actually anything above 60kmph and its not going to steer at all!

OK
How about a Busa Golf :pac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4QUMAyVr_4

af_thefragile

vectra wrote: »

OK
How about a Busa Golf :pac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4QUMAyVr_4

LMAO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdJ84nho3_k

vectra

af_thefragile wrote: »

LMAO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdJ84nho3_k

Nutz

SouperComputer

af_thefragile wrote: »

That thing is going to biblically understeer!!
Actually anything above 60kmph and its not going to steer at all!

Not sure if I follow your logic. Its not like it has a lot of power or torque in the scheme of things. Its a light car, very well tyred for its mass, has a short wheelbase and the majority of its the mass is up front. If anything it'll be twitchy and a lot of fun at that.

stevenmu

draffodx wrote: »

There not entering the equation in reality!

True, I just saw a good opportunity to be a smartass and grab some quick thanks

af_thefragile

SouperComputer wrote: »

Not sure if I follow your logic. Its not like it has a lot of power or torque in the scheme of things. Its a light car, very well tyred for its mass, has a short wheelbase and the majority of its the mass is up front. If anything it'll be twitchy and a lot of fun at that.

Light + tall + small wheel base + very fast will only lead to understeer!
Unless the drive is to the rear wheels. Which will only result in some very very unpredictable handling.

The Smart four two is known to be one of the worst handling cars you can get.

This should show how bad the smart is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lAbzCUjxbg

Stealthirl

any time i here small,fun and fast i remember my old 98 Daihatsu Mira TR-XX Avanzato.kept up with alot of faster things to 100kph
it was only 130bhp but with me in it only came in at 746kg with a full tank of petrol.
cheep tax and runing cost but parts were a pitta to find.

if it hadant of gone missing i was going to try get 150bhp out of it

heres the only 1 i could find its a 3cyl one tho
http://www.pistonheads.com/SALES/2253641.htm

the Avanzato R and R4 came with the JB-JL 4cyl tho,thats what i had

mozzer

draffodx wrote: »

My brother is looking to change his run of the mill 1.4 Fiesta to something with a bit more poke but doesn't need a bigger car, so is after something small but with a bit of power.

Under 2 liter, budget of around €8k, he only drives 10 - 15 miles a day and then to/from Athlone (from Slane) at weekends.

So far we've looked at Fiesta ST, Mini Cooper S, and Opel Corsa OPC.

However,

Fiesta ST is so rare we could only find an English reg that needed some work, Corsa OPC could only find a 08 which is out of budget and Mini Cooper S's within budget come with 80k+ miles.

Prefer to buy off a dealer too as if he tries to sell the Fiesta private first my head will be wrecked!

So two questions do you think its possible to get a nice clean Fiesta ST/Corsa OPC/ Cooper S in Ireland and in budget?

And is there any other small fast cars to bear in mind?

Had your brother any joy in finding any of those motors,I have a 06 fiesta st,Irish car,minded like a baby:)

b318isp

RoverJames wrote: »

That is bang on the money, acceleration is caused by torque at the wheels, diesels have f loads of engine torque but in comparison to a petrol car they also have long gearing. Torque at the wheels isn't actually that high most of the time (across the rpm range) even with loads of gear changes and 6 speed boxes to try and take advantage of the huge slap of torque that is low down.

Also remember that acceleration is based on the available torque ONLY AT A THAT POINT IN TIME. Torque cannot indicate acceleration over a period of time. Also, torque at the wheels varies according to gear while power does not.

As a technical point, diesels tend to have shorter gearing - each gear runs out at a lower road speed than petrols. That is why 6 speed gearboxes are so common, needing the extra gear to make up at the high speed end.

Cars with similar power to weight and power to drag ratios will tend to accelerate similarly. Torque doesn't come into it.

FunkBlaster87

Stealthirl wrote: »

any time i here small,fun and fast i remember my old 98 Daihatsu Mira TR-XX Avanzato.kept up with alot of faster things to 100kph
it was only 130bhp but with me in it only came in at 746kg with a full tank of petrol.
cheep tax and runing cost but parts were a pitta to find.

if it hadant of gone missing i was going to try get 150bhp out of it

heres the only 1 i could find its a 3cyl one tho
http://www.pistonheads.com/SALES/2253641.htm

the Avanzato R and R4 came with the JB-JL 4cyl tho,thats what i had

Epic cars alright, one for sale on donedeal at the moment.
what happened to yours?

Stealthirl

FunkBlaster87 wrote: »

Epic cars alright, one for sale on donedeal at the moment.
what happened to yours?

goin to lookin for it now

mine was stolen a few years ago and never seen agen.

savagecabbages

Smart cars understeer at any speed. Catastrophically so! Its understeer understeer understeer then SPIN!

I think the world is gone power mad. Back in the day small fast cars were about more than just bhp.

Someone said an S4 is only in hot hatch territory. In 1997 an S4 was in a league of its own! a hot hatch in 1997 would have been an Escort RS2000, Golf Gti, Civic Type-R or something along those lines. An S4 was more than just a step up, it was on another planet!

Modern hot hatches have moved on so much since, but so have the likes of the S4, M3 etc. Not to mention they are much better cars to actually live with than an often flimsily put together pocket rocket.


If it were my money I'd get an absolutely mint Clio Williams. I know its too old for OP, but you could afford to get the lowest mileage example in the UK, import it, still have change AND something a bit different...

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

What about a 1.7 Puma, 123hp stock with VCT and can be easily tuned up. Or even better a racing Puma they are class little cars.

had a 1.7 - great car - lovely handling, nippy and has power in 5th gear due to the VCT engine tech. very cheap if on a budget. black is best colour.

Henry Ford III

glasso wrote: »

had a 1.7 - great car - lovely handling, nippy and has power in 5th gear due to the VCT engine tech. very cheap if on a budget. black is best colour.

More accurate to say it has available torque really, so it pulls cleanly and strongly.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

More accurate to say it has available torque really, so it pulls cleanly and strongly.

ok.... think that anybody reading would get the idea....

savagecabbages

I'm calling the anal police:p