My plan for Silage Contracting

13spanner

Hi all,
So here's the story. I live an a small village full of farmers in North Clare. I'm 17 now and in five or six years I hope to be qualified as a teacher while keeping the farm going. I was thinking of running baling gear during the summer when I'd be on holidays from school and maybe a bit of hedgecutting or something small during the winter months.

My questions are....
1) Will farming have cut back so much that by the time I'm up and going with machinery there'll be too little work to be done to make it profitable?

2) Am I only dreaming with these plans I have?

Any opinions at all on what I've said would be valued, as I just want to see what ye think.

Thanks in advance.

Agri contractor

Farming will always be here and contractors will always be needed just don't go mad in spending big money on machinery. There are good bargains out there at the moment.

13spanner

hopefully you're right. And I'll never be spending huge money on gear, no 2011 John deere coming into the place anytime soon, anythin that'll stay goin and start when it's asked will do grand...

red menace

13spanner wrote: »

hopefully you're right. And I'll never be spending huge money on gear, no 2011 John deere coming into the place anytime soon, anythin that'll stay goin and start when it's asked will do grand...

My mate started off with a 802 Marshall with a RP200 and a 272 with a wrapper and a 5 foot 6 mower
He built his way up to JDs 7430, 6620 and a 6310 with a new baler and a Joskin tank
It takes time endless long nights
Abuse on the phone buying plastic, net wrap and diesel
Takes months to get paid if ever from some?
Is there already contractors in your area?
Can you do something to complement whats already being done?

Have you any machinery at present?

Muckit

I like your thinking. Your obviously very interested in machinery, and are probably gong to want to keep that interest going regardless of your teaching career. Are you handy around machines? No matter how careful you'I have breakdowns, more so when starting out with 'budget' outfit. Your probably a metalwork teacher, sorted so:D

I'd treat it as a 'hobby'. You'I be in the envyable position of having a steady fulltime wage and have the whole summer for your new venture when contractors are in most demand. I'm presuming that your from a farming background also, so how bad, you'I be able to do your own (or your Dad's stuff aswel).

Keep those dreams alive. I definitely think you should go for it, you'I always be wondering 'what if' if you don't. I wish you the very best of luck with it.

13spanner

thanks for the reply. I wrap bales with my dad during the summers, 4000-5000 every year. I'm mad for it to be honest, any abuse, late nights or bad weather but I still love the job. I'd hope to be doing around 10,000 at most when I'm older. The problem is, as you mentioned, the place is full of balers. Most farmers did well during the boom by block laying or something on the side so they went and bought gear for there own use. There's still plenty work, just more guys going for it. I'd hope to gain work by putting in the long hours, working Sundays, and just do the work on time for the right price. I'm lucky that my dad has a name made for me to start with, so hopefully I'll build on that . Thanks again.

13spanner

thanks a million for the interest and reply Muckit (: I'm fairly handy around machines alright, I'm no mechanic but I'd have a go at fixing anythin if I thought I could! I'm from a farming background alright and myself and dad do 4000-5000 bales a year. He's made a name for us and hopefully I'll build on what he's doing and gradually make my way up to 10,000 bales, all going well! It's a plan I've had since I was a young lad and only recently have I been taking it seriously. Thanks again, 13spanner

Muckit

13spanner wrote: »

thanks for the reply. I wrap bales with my dad during the summers, 4000-5000 every year. I'm mad for it to be honest, any abuse, late nights or bad weather but I still love the job. I'd hope to be doing around 10,000 at most when I'm older. The problem is, as you mentioned, the place is full of balers. Most farmers did well during the boom by block laying or something on the side so they went and bought gear for there own use. There's still plenty work, just more guys going for it. I'd hope to gain work by putting in the long hours, working Sundays, and just do the work on time for the right price. I'm lucky that my dad has a name made for me to start with, so hopefully I'll build on that . Thanks again.

Just interested 13spanner.....what kind of gear are ye running?

13spanner

well we've a 05 zetor 10641 baling and cutting, she's no john deere but with the dealer a mile up the road, anythin else would be pointless. We've a 09 kubota 108 wrapping, dealer up the road again. We've a 2005 claas 254 baler, has had a few knocks but running grand. a 2002 connor wrapper, as new bar the paint. a 1995 john deere 1355 mower, probably changing after next year for somethin with a grouper as she's getting rattled. We're looking at getting a 4wd massey 290 for wrapping next year so we wont have to be changin machines off tractors, just leave the same thing doing the same job for the summer. a 08 connor 1350 tanker and agitator. we've a new hedgecutter got but only the odd job with that yet. I'd hope to get that goin well if i had half a chance!

It's not the best gear in the country but it's reliable auld stuff and we keep em full of diesel so they stay goin for us. I'd have no time for lads buying 2011 john deere's or that when any auld yoke would do. Pointless! (:

red menace

13spanner wrote: »

well we've a 05 zetor 10641 baling and cutting, she's no john deere but with the dealer a mile up the road, anythin else would be pointless. We've a 09 kubota 108 wrapping, dealer up the road again. We've a 2005 claas 254 baler, has had a few knocks but running grand. a 2002 connor wrapper, as new bar the paint. a 1995 john deere 1355 mower, probably changing after next year for somethin with a grouper as she's getting rattled. We're looking at getting a 4wd massey 290 for wrapping next year so we wont have to be changin machines off tractors, just leave the same thing doing the same job for the summer. a 08 connor 1350 tanker and agitator. we've a new hedgecutter got but only the odd job with that yet. I'd hope to get that goin well if i had half a chance!

It's not the best gear in the country but it's reliable auld stuff and we keep em full of diesel so they stay goin for us. I'd have no time for lads buying 2011 john deere's or that when any auld yoke would do. Pointless! (:

Yer miles ahead of my mate already so
Do ye draw and stack as well
Lots of lads dont want the pain in the hole of that

13spanner

We'd rather not be wasting time at it, but if there was some poor hoor struggling with it we'd try and give him a hand if we could at all. Really we're only flat out busy for 2 or 3 weeks so tis cut, bale, wrap, dinner and nothing else for those days! How's it going for your mate? I'd like to see it goin well for lads who'll work at it cos they'd deserve it.

maidhc

13spanner wrote: »

well we've a 05 zetor 10641 baling and cutting, she's no john deere but with the dealer a mile up the road, anythin else would be pointless. We've a 09 kubota 108 wrapping, dealer up the road again. We've a 2005 claas 254 baler, has had a few knocks but running grand. a 2002 connor wrapper, as new bar the paint. a 1995 john deere 1355 mower, probably changing after next year for somethin with a grouper as she's getting rattled. We're looking at getting a 4wd massey 290 for wrapping next year so we wont have to be changin machines off tractors, just leave the same thing doing the same job for the summer. a 08 connor 1350 tanker and agitator. we've a new hedgecutter got but only the odd job with that yet. I'd hope to get that goin well if i had half a chance!

It's not the best gear in the country but it's reliable auld stuff and we keep em full of diesel so they stay goin for us. I'd have no time for lads buying 2011 john deere's or that when any auld yoke would do. Pointless! (:

That is very good equipment!

red menace

13spanner wrote: »

We'd rather not be wasting time at it, but if there was some poor hoor struggling with it we'd try and give him a hand if we could at all. Really we're only flat out busy for 2 or 3 weeks so tis cut, bale, wrap, dinner and nothing else for those days! How's it going for your mate? I'd like to see it goin well for lads who'll work at it cos they'd deserve it.

He is going well, has a good customer base built up and made a name for himself
But he works hard at it as you said late night early mornings sundays etc etc

mantua

Fairplay to ya!! atleast theirs someone on this site that has a positive perspective on the future:) but as you said no point going buying machines when you have older ones that will do the same and sure the newer ones are just full of computers so its an expensive fix if electrics do go wrong!! but also make sure that their is a market because no point working all year as a teacher and then putting your money into a job that you might lose money which hopefully you dont!!! also look at new oppourtunities in contracting like drawing bales for farmers which all contracters around us are doing now! and cleaning out dry sheds with bobcats because their small and handy!! look your still young and enthusiastic so you probably will have plenty ideas in how to make money out of it!!
Best of luck with everything but focus on teaching first and when you get that fire ahead with contracting:)

babybrian

Ever think of going into the seeding side of things? I reckon min-till or seed drilling of grass seed is going to hit a boom here soon with more and more lads going away from ploughing, maybe a subsoiler too.. just another idea for you to think about maybe. Good luck with it anyway

rliston

13spanner wrote: »

We'd rather not be wasting time at it, but if there was some poor hoor struggling with it we'd try and give him a hand if we could at all. Really we're only flat out busy for 2 or 3 weeks so tis cut, bale, wrap, dinner and nothing else for those days! How's it going for your mate? I'd like to see it goin well for lads who'll work at it cos they'd deserve it.

Dont dismiss the drawing and stacking bales too quick, there can be good enough money in it.

I started out doing a bit of round baling last year with a McCormick MTX 140 and a Claas 250 and then started drawing and stacking this year with hydraulic handler on loader and double handler on the back. The stacking bales has covered a lot more of the loan for the tractor than the baling did.

One tip for if you do go drawing/stacking, charge by the hour. Makes it a lot easier to price jobs as it'll allow for the tight gaps/yards, long/short haul, etc.

Whatever you do, work out all the costs of running the machinery/hour before you leave the yard; diesel, grease, oil, filters, wearing parts, tyres, a wage for yourself and some money to cover repairs/replacement.
Lots of lads are willing to work long hours for little money, and often forget that after a few years their machinery will be getting worn and need replacing.

iano93

Hi spanner13 i'm 17 too and was thinkin of doin a small bit off contracting myself if i am unsuccesful in my job seeking for the summer 2011:rolleyes:..But i duno now was thinkin of doin a few jobs like slurry, cleanin out sheds (we'v a front loader and grab and it makes very very light work of sheds:D), spreading manure and stacking bales ..thats basically it now i dont no will it work or will it be worth the slobbering about and hassle...

reilig

Lads, the most important thing that you need to have in place, ahead of machinery and customers is a plan or strategy to collect the money. There are hundreds of young lads across ireland that got burned big time in recent years by non payers. Contracting is a risky business - unless you are firmly established with reliable customers. I see it all the time in our area. A young lad buys a baler and wrapper and canvasses for business, the farmers that have a reliable contractor that they pay on time and regularly will not change, but the guys who owe money to several contractors for the last 10 years are glad to see a new contractor coming into the area that they can use and abuse and not pay. I have a friend who is a contractor, baling, slurry tankers and umbilical, hedge cutting and silage wagon. he has been doing it for the last 14 years. He tells me that he is owed over €100k from last year. He expects to collect much of it in the coming weeks since grants were paid, but he says that every year there is at least €15k to €20k that can be outstanding for over 12 months and at that rate, some of it is unrecoverable.

People are congratulating you for doing something positive and I don't mean to be negative, but its an expensive game and its easy to take a chance on a dodgy person if you're stuck for work. You have to be very careful. There are prowlers in every parish in the country that don't pay for anything and if you're left with a €30k overdraught for 6 months, the bank won't be long putting you on a high interest loan that could see you out a pocket. You will need to have an overdraught in place before you start to cover diesel, twine, wrap, parts and repairs etc. Remember to factor this into your budget as many farmers don't pay their contractor until their single payment comes - which can often be 6 months after the silage season.

Best of luck with it.

Atilathehun

reilig wrote: »

Lads, the most important thing that you need to have in place, ahead of machinery and customers is a plan or strategy to collect the money. There are hundreds of young lads across ireland that got burned big time in recent years by non payers. Contracting is a risky business - unless you are firmly established with reliable customers. I see it all the time in our area. A young lad buys a baler and wrapper and canvasses for business, the farmers that have a reliable contractor that they pay on time and regularly will not change, but the guys who owe money to several contractors for the last 10 years are glad to see a new contractor coming into the area that they can use and abuse and not pay. I have a friend who is a contractor, baling, slurry tankers and umbilical, hedge cutting and silage wagon. he has been doing it for the last 14 years. He tells me that he is owed over €100k from last year. He expects to collect much of it in the coming weeks since grants were paid, but he says that every year there is at least €15k to €20k that can be outstanding for over 12 months and at that rate, some of it is unrecoverable.

People are congratulating you for doing something positive and I don't mean to be negative, but its an expensive game and its easy to take a chance on a dodgy person if you're stuck for work. You have to be very careful. There are prowlers in every parish in the country that don't pay for anything and if you're left with a €30k overdraught for 6 months, the bank won't be long putting you on a high interest loan that could see you out a pocket. You will need to have an overdraught in place before you start to cover diesel, twine, wrap, parts and repairs etc. Remember to factor this into your budget as many farmers don't pay their contractor until their single payment comes - which can often be 6 months after the silage season.

Best of luck with it.

Amen to all of that.

Just look at the thread regarding accountants fees!! Several comments from regular posters on here, that they got the accountants bill and promptly filed it with other unpaid bills ... usually followed by a cute hoor smiley ........ meaning that there bill ainy gonna get paid anytime soon.

Rule number one in business ........ get paid. Get paid on time or near enough on time.
Most businesses which fail, fail because of poor cash flow, not because the underlying business is not profitable.

There is a few more threads on this board, which you should read and think about. You will see reams of posts from farmers (some of them large scale), constantly moaning that they have cash flow problems, problems with bank extending overdraft etc.

That dont mean the dont or wont pay their bills, but in a global sense it does point to an industry which has difficulties in meeting bills on time.

Remember the co-op and the feed suppliers and the diesel suppliers gat paid first because they have to .......... contractor is last, and as Reilig says, too often not at all

reilig

Atilathehun wrote: »

Remember the co-op and the feed suppliers and the diesel suppliers gat paid first because they have to .......... contractor is last, and as Reilig says, too often not at all

Because these farmers know that next year another young lad will come along that they can rip off too

rcdk1

Hi OP, I was going to post about contracting being tough etc but I guess you already know that. Since you're in Clare and want to combine teaching and contracting, I would suggest doing the Metalwork degree in UL. Will give you a better understanding of machinery etc but also access to the school workshop ;-)

Muckit

babybrian wrote: »

Ever think of going into the seeding side of things? I reckon min-till or seed drilling of grass seed is going to hit a boom here soon with more and more lads going away from ploughing, maybe a subsoiler too.. just another idea for you to think about maybe. Good luck with it anyway

I definitely think min till and subsoiling will be big business, but maybe just a fad for the next 5 years. Land is in very bad condition generally around the country after the last few bad years. Then again, I don't think Clare has too good of a reputation for reseeding going on the sales of grass seed:rolleyes: Could be the type of land there :D (only Jokin' BTW) This is something to look at in the future though, you'I have enough to concentrate on, what with paying back for what you have.

Something I would recommend you look at is your HOUSING and sheds for machines, maybe it's not an issue? I don't have to tell you that machines will spend at least half the year standing up. Better under cover then than outside.

Good Machines Spanner13. Maybe you should just focus on minding these and work on drumming up a bit of business for that new hedgecutter.

Like Reilig and others suggested, do remember to take off the rose tinted glasses from time to time and put on the specs to check out your perspective clients, finance figures and bookwork......... it's not just the kid's in school that need to do their HOMEWORK you know:D

13spanner

Thanks for the opinions so far lads!

Definately some good ideas coming in.
Keep 'em coming!

As for the teaching side of things I was going to do Liberal Arts in Mary I doing English and History, maybe German aswell. That or UCC. I'll get that much sorted first then look at farming!

As contractors and customers, any ideas as to the best way of going about getting more work? At the moment we do over 4000 a year and I'd like to be doing 7000 or 8000, and If possible do even more again!

Thanks again for the post so far,
I never thought I'd get this kind of interest to be honest!
13spanner

red menace

13spanner wrote: »

Thanks for the opinions so far lads!

Definately some good ideas coming in.
Keep 'em coming!

As for the teaching side of things I was going to do Liberal Arts in Mary I doing English and History, maybe German aswell. That or UCC. I'll get that much sorted first then look at farming!

As contractors and customers, any ideas as to the best way of going about getting more work? At the moment we do over 4000 a year and I'd like to be doing 7000 or 8000, and If possible do even more again!

Thanks again for the post so far,
I never thought I'd get this kind of interest to be honest!
13spanner

Try not to undercut the competition that's a recipe for disaster
Try to offer the extras other contractors don't, like stacking and drawing..

Sorry to keep harping on about that but it's sometimes the extras can help swing the customers

blue5000

Hi 13spanner,

It seems everyone these days has a baler and wrapper, by the time you're finished college there will be a few changes in farming, I guess splash plates might be banned so it might be worth looking at an injection system for slurry?

Also wrapping silage might be too expensive, might be worthwhile looking at a wagon? These came and went before.

Also as already mentioned some direct seeding and spraying might be on the cards. Don't go crazy on machinery though, it don't be long depreciating.

hiscan

Most of the Contractors down our way ask the farmer to supply the plastic for wrapping bales,makes it one less bill to collect off them I suppose.
It's one to think about if you aren't doing it already.

Agri contractor

Keep the baling outfit tidy. We run a mchale fusion,we give the farmers the handlers so they can haul and stack there own. They brake they fix.
We run a full contracting outfit and always try and keep it simple. Investing in machinery is expensive little room for error.

Muckit

Agri contractor wrote: »

Keep the baling outfit tidy. We run a mchale fusion,we give the farmers the handlers so they can haul and stack there own. They brake they fix.
We run a full contracting outfit and always try and keep it simple. Investing in machinery is expensive little room for error.

The 'problem' with the Mchale fusion IMO is that it only suits the contractor. Once out the gate, the farmer then is left to shift a large number of wrapped bales which is a pain in the h*le to say the least. Trying to get arms around them and 'humour' 'em is hard at the best of times...like a woman really:D (sorry Whelan1)

Same again with the plastic issue. With the farmer supplying the wrap, what does he do with 'the bit' (€€€) left over? It might not suit him to do bales the following year if he decides to do all clamp. Why should a half roll of wrap left in the shed determine what type silage you make. Again, suiting the baling contractor nicely. Trying to judge how much you need, you could potentially end up buying an extra roll you don't need, or having to go running to get another:mad:

I suppose it could be argued that because it only takes one man to work the fusion it costs less per bale to the farmer..... or it should:rolleyes: Never was the case around us.

iano93

red menace wrote: »

Try not to undercut the competition that's a recipe for disaster
Try to offer the extras other contractors don't, like stacking and drawing..

Sorry to keep harping on about that but it's sometimes the extras can help swing the customers

..Why do you suggest not undercutting the competition?..(some) Contractors are making a total killing out der and no they have their customers wrapped up and charge in a way what they like..If ur only doin a small bit of work then u can still make a good bit of money by doin it a small bit less especially if its a one man job(not like contractors who have to pay a few drivers)??

grass

This is the farmers choice is he can't handle wrapped bales get in the wrapper. We provide this service and it works for us. you cannot provide a service that works for everyone. we actually increased our bale numbers this year by 2000. We also supply the plastic no questions asked after about rolls.

Muckit wrote: »

The 'problem' with the Mchale fusion IMO is that it only suits the contractor. Once out the gate, the farmer then is left to shift a large number of wrapped bales which is a pain in the h*le to say the least. Trying to get arms around them and 'humour' 'em is hard at the best of times...like a woman really:D (sorry Whelan1)

Same again with the plastic issue. With the farmer supplying the wrap, what does he do with 'the bit' (€€€) left over? It might not suit him to do bales the following year if he decides to do all clamp. Why should a half roll of wrap left in the shed determine what type silage you make. Again, suiting the baling contractor nicely. Trying to judge how much you need, you could potentially end up buying an extra roll you don't need, or having to go running to get another:mad:

I suppose it could be argued that because it only takes one man to work the fusion it costs less per bale to the farmer..... or it should:rolleyes: Never was the case around us.

Tipp Man

We make about 800-1000 bales a year, we supply the plastic, contractor brings in and stacks. When contractor was supplying plastic we were paying him as he went out the gate. Now we're buying the plastic we get about a months credit

For me the ideal system for round bales is to have a wrapper parked up in the yard with a engine/power pack strapped onto it. Bring all bales in unwrapped and wrapping is done in the yard. It really reduces the risk of damaging bales and I think it could be a really efficient system. It only needs 2 men as well so should be cost efficient as well

Only down side is you need a good sized yard - we do but not sure everybody does