Partner delaying Starting family due to reccession

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gbee wrote: »

Right you are the crisis age. You've 4 more years where you enjoy a high potential of a healthy normal baby. After 35 and certainly after 40 the possibility of Downs increases.

So make you choice, IMO it's made for you. BABY NOW, start tonight!

What about the effects of stress that having a baby at a financially disastrous time brings? Stress brings its own complications. A baby born to a 29 year old in stressful times could have more chances of problems than one born to a 31 year old in good times. Not to mention, after the birth, the effects on a child that living on the breadline brings

gbee wrote: »

anyway they cost you nothing in the first two years.

^ Completely untrue

deisemum

I think the OP's partner is being sensible and tbh I think the comment about putting the foot down is very telling and coming across as if you're used to getting your own way even if it's not always the wisest thing.

OP you're still young and there's plenty of time before the body clock starts ringing compared to if you were in your mid to late 30's. Time is on your side.

I know what it's like wanting to have a baby and the impact circumstances can have on that. My husband and I put off starting our family when we were hit by the recession in the UK in the 90's. We waited a couple of years and we're so glad we did and got ourselves on a more secure financial footing. Having a baby can put a strain on a relationship anyway, getting used to it and all that but I'm glad we didn't have the added pressure of financial worry to contend with.

I think the 2 of you need to have a frank and honest discussion about both of your expectations and reach a compromise. I do think it would be wise to set yourselves a time limit and throw everything ye've got or could do to clear the visa debt. Set goals and review the situation in 6 or 12 months.

I wouldn't rely too much on child benefit as it looks like it's going to keep being reduced over the coming budgets. Babies are more expensive than just clothes and food.

It would be great if you did get a job to help speed up clearing the debt and I wish you all the best in that as it's not easy but if you managed to wait until you qualified for maternity leave then that would help too. I don't know how long the qualifying period is so it might be worth looking into.

Once you have your baby you'll have it for a long time so a year or two wait is not huge in the long run and you'll still be young enough.

Butterflylove

RedXIV wrote: »

For what its worth, just my 2c here.

I had my first last July, I had no job when I found out she was coming, I was a graduate, I had a student loan hanging over me and my partner had been told she was becoming redundant. And we turned it around. I got a good job, Still not really out of debt but have learned to prioritize alot better. Daughter doesn't go without anything even if we do, we've always found the money somewhere.

Just throwing it in against the guys who say have a few months salary saved up, I have pretty much no savings, but I'm surviving here.

I agree you dont need savings to start a family, cuts here and there can be made,
but while in Reds situation it may have worked OP you have alot bigger financial responiblities - mortgage, huge credit card debt (tbh i have no idea how anyone can have that high a bill and not be freaking out over it!)

You have stated you barely get by as it stands? Honestly think of it this way- what will you do if your partner gets let go how will you pay your mortgage and those credit card bills?

The child benefit wouldnt even touch the price of nappies and formula for a month for a newborn.

If you want this child so badly then cut out all luxuries concentrate on reducing your bills and ensuring you are able to pay your bills and can save at least a couple of quid the same time roughly about 200-400euro because thats about how much a baby will cost a mth without childcare etc thrown in.

seamus

Look, we're all here on the back of billions of people who never had two pennies to scrape together, never mind credit card facilities and paying jobs.

If a child comes along and you're mired in debt, you'll figure it out, everyone does. Not having €10k cash in your bank account is not a good reason to avoid having children, nor is the "I could be jobless this time next year" excuse. We could all be jobless this time next year, you can't live your life on that basis.

But at the same time, when you have the opportunity to plan it and you're not in a strong position, it doesn't make sense to make a stressful situation worse.

First off, forget about mortgage repayments. They will always be there, they'll never be a valid excuse to avoid having children. You say you're living hand-to-mouth, which means that you need to clear your debts; plan. Sit down with your other half, look at the sum total of your debts and make a budget which involves clearing these significantly. A €5k credit card debt needs to be the first to go.

Think short-term pain to clear these debt as quickly as possible. Do you go out once a week? That's easily €100 between the two of you right there, every single week of the year. If you didn't go out for the next year, your credit card would be cleared. That's possibly not reasonable, but if you restricted yourself to twice a month, perhaps staying in and getting a DVD every other week, then you could have cleared half of your credit card by next January, without making any other significant changes to your outgoings.

I would also advise you to cut up the credit card. If you need to buy something and you can't afford it, then you can't afford it. You'll have to make do.

Budgeting on a monthly basis (or whenever the paycheque comes in) will also help you keep much better control on your spending. I would advise setting up all your repayments and direct debits so they come out at the start of the month (or a few days after the paycheque comes in). This means that your money comes in, and all your major bills are immediately taken out. In other words, all of the essentials are looked after for that month and whatever you have left is to be budgeted for spending on day-to-day items. This means that you know exactly how much you have to live on for the rest of the month and it's much easier to say, "No, can't go out tonight, I have no money". If the mortgage repayment is sitting in your account until the end of the month, it's far too easy to sneak a few extra quid out of the account.

Once you have set out a clear plan for how you're going to improve/stabilise your finances, then you can plan for a child. For example - if your plan says that your credit card should be cleared by December 2012, you can realistically look at trying for a baby early next year.

Chuchoter

Personally, I'd wait until you get the debt under control before launching into babies. 5500 on a credit card is vicious. You're only 29, so I would get your own job (assuming you aren't working) and save and pay debts out of that for a year, then talk about kids because right now its nowhere near financially viable. I know they say theres never a perfect time to have kids but theres also a time where it is irresponsible because you can't pay for them. Babies are really expensive.

January

corsica wrote: »

This is no time to have a baby if you're already in dire straits financially. Plus if you have one, you cannot go back to work. So your financial burden just gets bigger - you lose 350 rent and gain 280 child benefit, so you're down 70. And babies cost, conservatively, a few thousand. Think about it yourself - do you want to be worrying about money and the cost of nappies with (possibly) your husband out of work, possibly losing your house if ye cant make repayments. Surely you should wait a year or two? You'll only be 31 ... time yet for loads of kids! Don't let your broodiness overshadow all reason!

She can go back to work, if she gets a well paid job that could cover childcare fee's and mortgage etc... That's if she wants to though.

And it's €140 child benefit for one child, not €280 that's for two children.

stovelid

It sometimes occurs to me that what I consider to be a acceptable standard of living was far higher than that of my parents and they brought up three kids all born between 1970 and 1980.

I'm all for prudence but if it meant never having a kid because I was waiting for an optimum income level: fuck it, I'd have one anyway and get by somehow, just like my parents - and nearly every single family I grew up with - did.

username123

stovelid wrote: »

It sometimes occurs to me that what I consider to be a acceptable standard of living was far higher than that of my parents and they brought up three kids all born between 1870 and 1980.

I'm all for prudence but if it meant never having a kid because I was waiting for an optimum income level: fuck it, I'd have one anyway and get by somehow, just like my parents - and nearly every single family I grew up with - did.

I dont disagree with the optimum standard of living/income argument here but dont forget your parents didnt have access to the easy credit of todays parents-to-be and as such wouldnt have had credit card debt, loans, etc...

People these days have more and bigger 'stuff' but they owe more than any previous generation.

hsi

Crap. Money should never be an issue. In years to some he will say, oh why didn't we start earlier.

Go for it.

Pandoras Twist

He is being completely reasonable imo. Your biological clock will last a bit longer. I think it's irresponsible to bring kids into an environment where you are already stretched and the future is so uncertain.

Manage to get yourselves out of debt before putting on the added (and unboundless) stresses of having a child

bmarley

hsi wrote: »

Crap. Money should never be an issue. In years to some he will say, oh why didn't we start earlier.

Go for it.

Of course money should be an issue...it's expensive to rear a child this would be on top of all the debts you already have. Child benefit is only 140 euro per month and will not pay for all the child's needs, especially as they get a bit older. I think your bf is being responsible...after all he's the one that is bringing home the pay cheque. OP maybe your should consider finding some kind of job or training that would improve your chances of finding a job. Then you could get on top of those debts.

alex73

bmarley wrote: »

Of course money should be an issue...it's expensive to rear a child this would be on top of all the debts you already have. Child benefit is only 140 euro per month and will not pay for all the child's needs, especially as they get a bit older. I think your bf is being responsible...after all he's the one that is bringing home the pay cheque. OP maybe your should consider finding some kind of job or training that would improve your chances of finding a job. Then you could get on top of those debts.

My Wife got pregnant just after we got married, not planned. We had no money and no house. but we managed fine and moved on. When we wanted a 2nd planned child (5 years later) she miscarried.

What I am saying if you want kids.. Money should not be an issue. Anyway they only get more expensive.

Men always look at the pragmatic side, while you as a women are not getting any younger.

Now if you are 18 well you have plenty of time. But if you are reaching 30 its time to make a choice. Kids or no Kids.

MagicMarker

hsi wrote: »

Crap. Money should never be an issue.

Unfortunately, in the real world, it is.

leeroybrown

hsi wrote: »

Crap. Money should never be an issue. In years to some he will say, oh why didn't we start earlier.

Hindsight is a wonderful tool. I don't think that many of the posters were advocating delaying in the long-term, just saying that the OP and her partner need to plan when exactly to have the child and start working on improving their finances to that end. If having a child risks putting your mortgage repayments in doubt you really seriously need to start working to avoid this.

lynski

just to say there are so few 'essentials' when it comes to babies:
breastfeed = free,
co-sleep until you can afford a cot or acquire a cot = free,
sling for baby until you can afford/acquire a pram = v. cheap,
Vests, babygros, clothes = presents or relatives handmedowns or freecycle or car boot sales
Nappies = Lidl or Aldi or buy secondhand washables
Food when weaned = whatever you are eating

If you really want to start a family the discussion you should have should be about when AND how many, because unless you want an only child you should plan from the start for the others.
We had no money when we had our first, my cousin dropped all her used baby stuff to me as she was finished. We have a second and are expecting a third, I am out of work, but we manage.
There are no holidays, very rare nights out, very few new clothes and the car is 7, sorry 8 yrs old and will be prob be 10 or more by the time we get to change it.
I accept every stitch of clothing offered to me from others, and I make sure I pass them on when we are done, I accept toys/books/furniture and again pass them on when done. Family pitched in as presents for the big things like car seats and a cotbed, but I have a secondhand P&T, moses basket will be on its 5th child (new mattress everytime), baby car seat on its 3rd use.
We have a wonderful set of friends through the children's activities, have gotten to know our neighbors and it has brought me out into the community, all pretty much free activities.
It can be done, you just need to know what your expectations are and how important it is to you.

stovelid

I assume if people lose their jobs and take a long time to find another, they put their kids up for adoption right?

Butterflylove

stovelid wrote: »

I assume if people lose their jobs and take a long time to find another, they put their kids up for adoption right?

Thats a big difference compared to the OP's situation, would these families be irresponsible and have over 5k on a credit card when they have to consider providing for their family before losing the jobs,

The op's partner is right not wanting to start a family in an already stuggling situation, there are situations where you have to grin and bear it when an unexpected arrival is here but when its planned they should at least give themselves some leway.

The advice here from many is at least try and reduce these huge debts before jumping in, after all all anyone here can give is advice on the op's situation, at the end of the day its up to the Op and her partner what they decide on they should really discuss in detail when they want to start what position etc they hope to be in.

All the best Op,

Jinxi

OP I really feel for you. The need to have children has been an issue for my partner and I for 2 years(i am 29). We luckily have no credit card debt, but neither do we have a house(we have about 3/4 of the deposit saved), or are we married(not a big issue morally for us, but we would like it for legal reasons), I work part time and he doesn't have the best job in the world.
We sat down and looked at out finances and saw what disposable income we had. And there is some as we have quite a bit going into our savings acc. Working PT gives me the same maternity rights and it means I only have to go back to work pt afterwards. Also, I felt that my body was aging, and I don't think that 35 year olds have as easy a time with pregnancy, never mind the other demands that comes with being a parent.
Anyway long story made short, I am 6 weeks pregnant and delighted.
But saying that, there really was a pro/cons list. If we had €5500 in credit card debt, it may have swayed it the other way!
Also, it has to be said, it was a joint decision. I would never have been happy where I am right now if I felt I had forced my partners hand. Yours has legitimate concerns. You need to talk and compromise-good practice for parenthood!

tommy21

lynski wrote: »

co-sleep until you can afford a cot or acquire a cot = free,

Dangerous advice - that has been linked to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Also I agree with the other posters, get your finances in order first. Nobody is saying never have a child, but take a year to get a job (even in local shop/MacDonalds if needs be) and kill that credit card first.

Squiggler

tommy21 wrote: »

Dangerous advice - that has been linked to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.

That's just not true, actually, having the child sleeping in the same room as the parents is believed to reduce the risk of SIDS as any change in the child's breathing, or any distress, is noticed by the parents. SIDS is linked with many things in many different studies, including chemicals (mattress/laundry detergent etc) and immunisations.

Regarding the OP's problem. If she and her partner are already living above their means they should definitely try to get their finances under control before starting a family. Although a baby doesn't have to cost a lot of money there could be unexpected costs and bringing home a baby can put enough strain on a couple without it adding to existing financial strain.

Jinxi

Squiggler wrote: »

That's just not true, actually, having the child sleeping in the same room as the parents is believed to reduce the risk of SIDS as any change in the child's breathing, or any distress, is noticed by the parents. SIDS is linked with many things in many different studies, including chemicals (mattress/laundry detergent etc) and immunisations.

.

Please be careful about statements like this.
The main factor that has been PROVEN to contribute to increased risk of SIDS is smoking around children. All other factors have very little scientific proof. Co-sleeping has been not recommended as a smothering issue, not SIDS. Immunisation has never beenproven to have links to SIDS.
You might be a bit more sensitive to those who have lost children to cot death and are looking for reasons to blame themselves or other factors

Squiggler

Jinxi wrote: »

Please be careful about statements like this.
The main factor that has been PROVEN to contribute to increased risk of SIDS is smoking around children. All other factors have very little scientific proof. Co-sleeping has been not recommended as a smothering issue, not SIDS. Immunisation has never beenproven to have links to SIDS.
You might be a bit more sensitive to those who have lost children to cot death and are looking for reasons to blame themselves or other factors

Jinxi, this thread is not about SIDS, it is about whether the op and her partner can afford a child. The post I was responding to was making a very inaccurate statment. I have a lot of sympathy for people who have lost children to Cot Death, I was just trying to make the point that there have been MANY studies and the studies have blamed MANY factors, including just bad luck. As you pointed out, Co-Sleeping, is not one of them.

Jinxi

I didn't take it off thread. My first post was on thread. All I was doing was correcting inaccuracies. Some by yourself

January

Folks, back to the question being asked please.

ebmma

I am one of those people who had a baby because there's a recession.
I was job hunting for over a year and it wasn't getting any better it was getting wrse and worse, as you know. Eve my local corner shop would not employ me! (and I'm skilled and educated).
BUT
we have no debt
we have no mortgage
we do not own a credit card
no car
we have savings
no expensive habits (smoking or expensive nights out)
we go on holidays in Ireland
we got as much as we could second hand (mostly free from various websiteslike freecycle and adverts)
I breastfeed (not because of finances but it does cut down on some gadgetry) and baby-led wean (i.e. he eats food from our table, no jars or special cereals)
I went public to have my baby
we buy very little baby stuff - nappies the main expense. Little man wears babygrows on a daily basis and outfits only on special occasions (you get tons of those as presents). We buy very little toys - he gets lots from family and he prefers people anyway.

Our reasoning was that the best thing to give a baby is my time and I had it. And while we could be better financially, we were fine. While we could have more money, all we had was ours and ours alone because of no debt.

so the point i'm trying to make is that do you personally think you can make it work? can you get rid of debt?
Or will you get into even more debt whe you are pregnant because you'l start buying mountains of cute designer outfits and expensive nursery furniture?
Also being a parent is really tough and you really want your partner on board as much as possible. You'll need all the help and support you can get. If he's reluctant that might not happen.

Jinxi

I am in the same boat ebmma. I am 6 wks preg. i work p/t as there are few hours for teaching at the mo. But we are debt free and with the time I have free(two days a week and paid summer hols) it seems there may be no other perfect time to have children.
I don't know if i was in full time employment and had enough money for 2 hols abroad every year would I have reached this decision

Kimono-Girl

ebmma wrote: »

I am one of those people who had a baby because there's a recession.
I was job hunting for over a year and it wasn't getting any better it was getting wrse and worse, as you know. Eve my local corner shop would not employ me! (and I'm skilled and educated).
BUT
we have no debt
we have no mortgage
we do not own a credit card
no car
we have savings
no expensive habits (smoking or expensive nights out)
we go on holidays in Ireland
we got as much as we could second hand (mostly free from various websiteslike freecycle and adverts)
I breastfeed (not because of finances but it does cut down on some gadgetry) and baby-led wean (i.e. he eats food from our table, no jars or special cereals)
I went public to have my baby
we buy very little baby stuff - nappies the main expense. Little man wears babygrows on a daily basis and outfits only on special occasions (you get tons of those as presents). We buy very little toys - he gets lots from family and he prefers people anyway.

Our reasoning was that the best thing to give a baby is my time and I had it. And while we could be better financially, we were fine. While we could have more money, all we had was ours and ours alone because of no debt.

+1,

i always intended on being a working mum, but when i was made redundant after had my daughter i saw it as a blessing in disguise, it was breaking my heart leaving her at the childminders each morning,

now thanks to the recession i can take the opportunity to be a stay at home mum and give her my time, and it shows in her development,( i am also using the evenings to upskill so when i eventually go back to work i will not have been idle for years)

BUT like ebmma said, we too
have no debt
have no mortgage
do not own a credit card
have savings
have no expensive habits (smoking or drinking or expensive nights out)
we went on our first (and last until we can afford it again)holiday last year.
we got as much as we could second hand and as gifts, family members bought her so many outfits in so many sizes we have only just ran out, shes almost 2!
I also went public to have my baby
we buy very little baby stuff - nappies and formula is the main expense. We buy almost no toys - she got too many of them from family our place resembles smyths.


when i was pregnant though, we really saved a good bit, every bit of our income was put into savings, i only bought maternity clothes for work, and even then all of it came from penny's so it was cheap.

Snazzy_Chazzy wrote: »

Whats your thoughts ladies. My other half is reluctant to start a family.
He says

"cant afford it just now"
"I might be out of a job come the summer"

This has been his excuse since the reccession kicked in 2 years ago.
I know a lot of guys are scared of having children

Ok so we have debts and visa bills and mortgage repayments like everyone else. We dont have a CENT to spare and live pay cheque to pay cheque (even thats a struggle)
He also says that if we have a kid we wont be able to rent out our spare room which we do at present brings in 350 per month extra.
I dont work
In fairness things are tight his job is not THAT secure it could be fine it might not. we just dont know. So what do we do put making a family on hold until the reccesion is over? Im 29 now and dont want to wait for ever!

you really need to clear the debt and then when you are in a position to save from your/his paycheck consider having a baby,

as for his job it will never be definite, when i got pregnant i was in full time permanent employment while my OH was in college, we made it work, our savings/family support helped us through, now im unemployed and he is working full time. things change, but you manage, you cannot plan the next 18 years so you can never guarantee you will be employed for the next 18 years, but it does help having a savings nest egg, it may help improve your financial record too.


good luck and by this time next year you could be starting your family....:)

ebmma

Jinxi wrote: »

I am in the same boat ebmma. I am 6 wks preg. i work p/t as there are few hours for teaching at the mo. But we are debt free and with the time I have free(two days a week and paid summer hols) it seems there may be no other perfect time to have children.
I don't know if i was in full time employment and had enough money for 2 hols abroad every year would I have reached this decision

congrats on your pregnancy!
hope it all works out well.

after my pregnancy and 7 months of baby's life my husband got a well paid job in NI. So things can change for the better, it's just not wise to count on it.

the_syco

Snazzy_Chazzy wrote: »

I wish we could but the ICB have me on file ... a few times ive missed a lot of things here and there. The credit union would run me i suspect :eek:

Butterflylove wrote: »

tbh i have no idea how anyone can have that high a bill and not be freaking out over it!

I'd wonder who is spending the money. OP, get a job. There are a fair few crappy jobs about not on websites. Get rid of the debt, and then look at
a) what created the debt?
b) can you stay debt free?

If you can stay debt free, then look into havinh a baby.

LegacyUser

I'm in the opposite position to you in that my husband wants a baby like NOW NOW NOW but I feel the time is wrong as I just started a new job I love.

Just to say everyone saying get a job, yes keep trying if it's what you want but you're gonna want to be in that job at least year before you have a child I think.
There'll be a probation period and if you make it known to your employer that you're pregnant during that time well I wouldn't be surprised if you were let go for some trivial reason that will stand up in court.