Final Fantasy dying more and more.

Laisurg

No doubt a lot of you will have noticed how FF games have gotten worse and worse, FF5 and FF6 were both pretty great for the time, FF7 was a masterpiece that they were never going to top, it had an excellent turn based system, great character design and the best and most immersive story that i've ever seen in a game as well as a great world map as well as the character personalities being nothing short of amazing, then FF8 was released and while it was pretty alright it had an awful battle system and the character design wasn't great and the world map was a bit too big and confusing for my tastes but was still good enough, FF9 i think is a bit underrated i loved it and its my favorite after FF7 they had a good battle system,story world map design.

Then came FF10 which a lot of people thought was good but i just never really took to it that much, i didn't like the battle system or the characters but thats just personal preference.

FF11 was a failure of an online game.

X-2 was a disgrace in all honestly and anyone who's played it will know what i mean, virtually everything was wrong with it,

FF12 was shocking, the main reason for this was the terrible real time system that they brought in that just didn't work, along with those slightly overpowered dragonball z rip off moves that i never really quite understood and i just rolled my palm around the triangle square circle and x buttons and it seems to do the job,character design was meh at best and the maps were terrible.

FF13, i liked this better than 12 but still couldn't bring myself to keep playing it, the awful linear as can be map designs were mainly to blame.
While it looked awesome the battle system once again wasn't good, character design was rubbish and it in general was a bit iffy as well as the constant playing of that terrible song that was looped over and over again....
That actually resulted in me turning the sound off for a lot of it.

I think the fact that they started killing the story more and more each game contributed a lot as the main thing FF has to offer is story, however square enix seems to think that just throwing in lots of pretty cinematics makes up for this.

FF6 and especially 7 had a much more sinister story than most of the other games, which i think was great however it seems that they're done with that and like most gaming companies now all they care about is money and getting more people to buy their games with their sappy storylines, now FF9 had a bit of a sappy storyline but it didn't take the absolute piss like 13 did.


I also think the removal of the world map was an awful idea
Wow that was a long rant...... :P

jamezy

I agree for the most part brother. IX is under rated as hell and it was the last time i truly loved a FF game.
I think Final Fantasy XIII versus is bringing back the world map, if memory serves. I have very high hopes for it but i wont be surprised if i am let down again.

Overheal

FFIX was good I just didn't like the whole two-worlds plot. Otherwise a great game.

X2 was a disaster. The franchise died for me that day when although I was hanging on by a thread hoping the games story would make up for the otherwise completely-different fight mechanics (in an expansion, I mean, why not just stick to the FFX system more or less? I liked that system!) a dialog about the word Poopie crossed my ears. And then, it was dead. I played 12 for a little while but truthfully the day of the Poopie was the day Final Fantasy died.

Zaffy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Story

Hoping this will become the new Final Fantasy personally :P

GodlessM

I agree with you that they struggled mostly after 7, however I disagree entirely about 13. The new battle system was a lot more enjoyable than the typical (and now outdone; albeit great) turn based system and was certainly a positive step forward. Story was a little rocky at the start as it felt it was just them running and running and spliting and reforming but a bit through disk two it got really good and intense.

Characterwise, they got it mostly right. Hope was annoying and whiny, and sometimes they made Snow very repetitive, but Lightning was a very powerful character. Despite being initially very cold she was very complex and very human, which is a good thing to keep her down to earth.

I disagree and thought the music was awesome, but different strokes and all that...

Only thing that annoyed me was the linearity compared to some of the other titles.

K.O.Kiki

JRPGs are becoming conservative sh*t.

Wait, you're surprised?

Retr0gamer

I actually really liked FF13. Yeah it was linear but other than FF12 and the second half of FF6 the series has been just as linear. The battle system was superb as was the world created for FF13 and it was more than enough for me. Also the characterisation was great, even the annoying characters redeemed themselves. Oh and FF7's story wasn't so hot in retrospect, it was very derivative and full of anime tropes borrowed from what was popular at the time.

JRPGs from Square Enix have definitely become a lot more conservative. I lost faith in them until FF13 and was surprised I liked it. I'll be focusing on Atlus and what they bring out who are making and publishing games that are far better than anything in the Final Fantasy series.

Jazzy

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I actually really liked FF13.

am disappoint

ride-the-spiral

In terms of storytelling, Final Fantasy has been going downhill since bringing in real voices. At least if there was a cringy line in any of the games up to IX, it wasn't made even worse by the annoying actors. X is the only one which actually pulled off the voiced characters well.

I think 6-9 were the pinnacle of gameplay of the series, they're the only ones I can't choose any aspects of the gameplay I didn't enjoy.
X - Hated the Sphere Grid, was WAY too much of a grind to even think of completing that thing, also hated that you were encouraged to use all 7 of your characters. Other than that I loved it.

X-2 Can't remember this one much, one of the few ones I never touched again after finishing it, never liked the job system though. Story was pretty lacking, and the general upbeat "girly" attitude of the game was annoying.

XII - I adored the battle system, the most addictive part of this game was just going from one place to another and exploring the large expanses. However the loot and bazaar method was really hard to keep track of and got very annoying later in the game. Also the story wasn't great, and the voices we're really corny too, taking away from it moreso. Saved by the gameplay IMO.

XIII - Well they did something right, in that I wanted to continue playing, but I had this constant annoyance while playing most of it. The linearity was just frustrating, I know JRPG's aren't known for their openness, but this is just ridiculous. The game get's so much more interesting when you reach Gran Pulse and the feeling that you can run in more directions than crash bandicoot could. The story and voices are also terrible, full of cringy lines and cringy characters, although Lightning is one of the more likeable main characters in an FF game tbh. I liked the Crystarium though, was like an improved sphere grid.

Retr0gamer

Thought XII was woefully lacking in the gameplay department. The battle system was god awful. Run up to enemies, wait as the CPU takes them out, rinse and repeat until you run out of MP and then run in a circle for 5 minutes to get your MP back. The battle system did work for bosses but during exploration it was terrible. Story was good as well up until the point it was getting interesting and then suddenly jumped to the end game. Voice work was top notch.

NeoKubrick

Final Fantasy XII battle system was revolutionary. So, the series has't been dying more and more.

pablomakaveli

The last FF game i really enjoyed was FF9 although 10 wasnt too bad.

12 was a bit meh for me. I agree that the battle system wasnt great. It tended to get really messy during boss battles as well.

FF13 was absolute tripe and i detest the game. I hated it so much that i gave up after 20 hours. I couldn't stand anymore at that point and i ended up trading it in.

For me FF hasn't been great past the PS1 and it seems to be getting progressively worse.

Overheal

The Sphere system was not that bad at all. It was actually kinda fun, unlike grinding levels on Materia. Now THAT sucked. Still, I never did manage to do a full clear of X, lost access to the PS2 before I could. Some of those Endgame content bosses were absolutely sick though.

Jazzy

ff13 is just a pain in the arse and contains absolutely none of the magic of vi,vii,ix,x etc.
lame fukin characters that i could give less of a sh1t about. the battle system was ok BUT the way of ramping up the difficulty was just to give the enemies loads and loads of health. they should really have a look at the games that are "classics" in some sort of depth and see what worked there and where they can advance instead of just pushing you through with characters that dont cut the mustard anymore. voice acting isnt neccessarily a good thing in final fantasy i think. heck, the main character in crono trigger never utters a word

Retr0gamer

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Final Fantasy XII battle system was revolutionary. So, the series has't been dying more and more.

It was just a Bioware RPG system with a userdefined priority list on commands. Hardly new or revolutionary considering it's copying western RPGs and MMO's and hasn't exactly mademassive changes in JRPG development.

NeoKubrick

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It was just a Bioware RPG system with a userdefined priority list on commands. Hardly new or revolutionary considering it's copying western RPGs and MMO's and hasn't exactly mademassive changes in JRPG development.

You're confused. We already had this discussion where I proved that you didn't understand the design behind the gambit system in Final Fantasy XII or the difference between 'strategy' and 'execution' in games. So, I scarcely know why you're mocking yourself by attempting to lecture me on the battle system in Final Fantasy XII.

johnny_ultimate

So there's this series called Square Enix called Dragon Quest. It's conservative, but each instalment quietly revolts, adding small but game changing additions while retaining a comfortably DQ style and slow-burning but rewarding gameplay. It's turn based and has a world map, and while old-fashioned and derivative in a number of regards, it's almost comforting stepping foot into another respectfully nostalgic Dragon Quest game. The narratives also differ from instalment, and while hardly complex, the storylines that drive each respective DQ game forward are different and charming enough (dear Vanille voice artist - check DQ for how to do a good localisation with lots of character) to keep you engaged. The DQ tropes are always there and comfortable - you'll always get a Slime, a nameless hero, a church to save in etc...

Wait, this is a Final Fantasy thread, why bring up Dragon Quest? Because as the two most popular Square Enix franchises, one has shown itself (in main instalments anyway) to provide fans with the similar but respectfully ambitious sequels again and again, including the fantastic multiplayer additions to DQIX. Dragon Quest is a series that is instantly recognisable. Final Fantasy, on the other hand, bar token references to Cid and Chocobos, has consistently alienated its fan base, the core games often bearing little similarities to each other bar a few token references. The name Final Fantasy means little anymore, whereas a Dragon Quest title with a roman numeral after it is always an exciting prospect. You know what you're getting, with some cool surprises. FF is pretty much pot luck at this point, often some cool gameplay evolutions marred by idiotic design decisions (and no matter what people say, the twenty hour corridor that consists of FFXIIIs first half is some seriously awful design, with even the good battle system marred by repetition and fighting the same enemies for prolonged periods with little of the variety or breaks that have defined the best JRPGs). FFVII was a classic because it dared to provide the player with more to do than simple turn based fighting. FFXIII has little to offer outside combat bar a lame, overwrought story and some ****ty voice acting.

If all else fails, just play Persona 3 and 4. You'll ultimately be far happier.

Retr0gamer

NeoKubrick wrote: »

You're confused. We already had this discussion where I proved that you didn't understand the design behind the gambit system in Final Fantasy XII or the difference between 'strategy' and 'execution' in games. So, I scarcely know why you're mocking yourself by attempting to lecture me on the battle system in Final Fantasy XII.

No you didn't. Doesn't change the fact I found it boring.

pablomakaveli

Overheal wrote: »

The Sphere system was not that bad at all. It was actually kinda fun, unlike grinding levels on Materia. Now THAT sucked. Still, I never did manage to do a full clear of X, lost access to the PS2 before I could. Some of those Endgame content bosses were absolutely sick though.

The Dark Aeons were ridiculous though. I spent literally ages levelling up to try and kill them. Despite all the time and effort i put into levelling up i still couldn't kill one of them. There was one that i could bring close to death but he'd always finish me off before i could defeat him.

I never got round to finishing FFX because of my obsession with defeating those Dark Aeons.

Retr0gamer

The Dark Aeons ruined the end game for me. A lot of them blocked off access to most of the endgame subquests and made them impossible to do unless you defeated them which would require hours of grinding. If I ever go back to it I'll be playing the NTSC version.

Sisko

Like many I thought 7 was the greatest thing ever. 8 was alright, haven't bothered with any of them since. I also think giving them all voices takes something away from the game.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

You're confused. We already had this discussion where I proved that you didn't understand the design behind the gambit system in Final Fantasy XII or the difference between 'strategy' and 'execution' in games. So, I scarcely know why you're mocking yourself by attempting to lecture me on the battle system in Final Fantasy XII.

Hahahahahahaha

Mr. K

I liked exploring the world in XII. The story was really good, but it wasn't really at the forefront of the experience and (as Retr0 noted) ended rather suddenly.

XIII was cool, but the linearity made the world seem less alive. The character design, battle system and music were all excellent.

Jazzy

NeoKubrick wrote: »

You're confused. We already had this discussion where I proved that you didn't understand the design behind the gambit system in Final Fantasy XII or the difference between 'strategy' and 'execution' in games. So, I scarcely know why you're mocking yourself by attempting to lecture me on the battle system in Final Fantasy XII.

oh neokubrick. you and your brain

retr0 wrote:

The Dark Aeons ruined the end game for me. A lot of them blocked off access to most of the endgame subquests and made them impossible to do unless you defeated them which would require hours of grinding. If I ever go back to it I'll be playing the NTSC version.

noob
i love big whacky bosses like those. they make a man out of ya.

dragon quest on the ds is my first encounter with the series and its really quite good. it does seem a bit like JRPG #482432 but its well enjoyable. as far as battle systems go I liked the one in Tales of Symphonia.. well class game too

GodlessM

I think the general divide on FFXIII seems to be dependant on how hardline or conservative one is regarding FF. There will always be a group (and usually the majority) who will always like the classic old ways and won't like many huge changes to such mechanics, thus these fans will prefer titles closer to the more popular FFVII. Of course then the minority of us will always embrace radical change to see where it goes. Both sides of the coin and fair and acceptable.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

You're confused. We already had this discussion where I proved that you didn't understand the design behind the gambit system in Final Fantasy XII or the difference between 'strategy' and 'execution' in games. So, I scarcely know why you're mocking yourself by attempting to lecture me on the battle system in Final Fantasy XII.

Nice way to try of convince anybody of anything; makes claims with no links/proof, disrespect a differing opinion, and insult people. Charming.

Retr0gamer

Jazzy wrote: »

noob
i love big whacky bosses like those. they make a man out of ya.

I know but I just don't like grinding. If I have to grind I want to do it naturally while doing subquests but these bastards wouldn't let me! I should have wussed out and used Yojimbo on them.

Jazzy wrote: »

dragon quest on the ds is my first encounter with the series and its really quite good. it does seem a bit like JRPG #482432 but its well enjoyable.

Dragon Quest can seem like bog standard JRPG but it's because it was the first JRPG and is the standard that all subsequent games in the genre built upon. I still think it's got more than enough charm and variety that it's still a fantastic series and well worth getting into. Not played the DQ9 but DQ8 on the PS2 is one of my favourite games ever.

Retr0gamer

GodlessM wrote: »

I think the general divide on FFXIII seems to be dependant on how hardline or conservative one is regarding FF. There will always be a group (and usually the majority) who will always like the classic old ways and won't like many huge changes to such mechanics, thus these fans will prefer titles closer to the more popular FFVII. Of course then the minority of us will always embrace radical change to see where it goes. Both sides of the coin and fair and acceptable.

The funny thing is that FF as a series is totally non conservative. With every game Square has made massive changes to the battle system and tried new things. The only exception really is FF7 which has mechanics very similar to FF6 but was still a big change in direction by pushing what 32-bit machines could do for the FF series. If people want a series that is conservative they should be playing Dragon Quest.

Jazzy

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I know but I just don't like grinding. If I have to grind I want to do it naturally while doing subquests but these bastards wouldn't let me! I should have wussed out and used Yojimbo on them.

yeah when i look back now and I see the file and its at like 190 hours im a bit "oh... ummmmmm" but still nothing beat ringing my mate at 5.30am going "Penance is dead, this is a great day for nerdkind".

nowadays I much prefer bosses which require more of a strategy and skill. like even the actual fight with penance is a grind, there is a definded strategy which you can grind through and you will eventually win.
Sephiroth from kingdom hearts is still the biggest cheapest **** ive faced in a RPG. was just absolutely not bothered going all out to beat him

NeoKubrick

GodlessM wrote: »

Nice way to try of convince anybody of anything; makes claims with no links/proof, disrespect a differing opinion, and insult people. Charming.

It's a surreal experience to have someone lecture you on a subject you actually informed them about. It would be just as ridiculous to pay your old teacher who taught you arithmetic a visit and give a treatise on the wonders of the abacus. Here are links and proof over three threads and three separate discussions: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9).

Jazzy

NeoKubrick wrote: »

It's a surreal experience to have someone lecture you on a subject you actually informed them about. It would be just as ridiculous to pay your old teacher who taught you arithmetic a visit and give a treatise on the wonders of the abacus. Here are links and proof over three threads and three separate discussions: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9).

Retr0gamer

NeoKubrick wrote: »

It's a surreal experience to have someone lecture you on a subject you actually informed them about. It would be just as ridiculous to pay your old teacher who taught you arithmetic a visit and give a treatise on the wonders of the abacus. Here are links and proof over three threads and three separate discussions: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9).

You know what, you're still wrong. Are you trying to make out now that you are some kind of Yoda like guru dispensing truth and knowledge? I hope so because if you do think that I'm going to have a good belly laugh.

Mark Hamill

GodlessM wrote: »

I think the general divide on FFXIII seems to be dependant on how hardline or conservative one is regarding FF. There will always be a group (and usually the majority) who will always like the classic old ways and won't like many huge changes to such mechanics, thus these fans will prefer titles closer to the more popular FFVII. Of course then the minority of us will always embrace radical change to see where it goes. Both sides of the coin and fair and acceptable.

Like retro said, FF has always changed greatly, however, imo, the problem with 13 (and X2 and 12, to a lesser extent) is that its changes have been for the worse.

X-2 was an absolute shambles storywise, awful japanese pop culture influences and Pain going from somewhat interestingly moody to girl power supporter ruined what little characterisation it had going for it. Still, I have soft spot for the battle system, the jobs were done well and a fully leveled up Gunner was kick ass.

12 had a slightly more interesting battle system, though once i figured out gambets it was easy. I didn't like the story (it was damaged by makers having the early game concentrate on Vahn, who they thought would better connect with younger games than Aragorn (the disgraced knight, whatever his name is) who was originally the main chracter) and (possibly because of the story) just didn't find any of the characters interesting.

13s battle sytem is just so uninvolving, you do very little in or out of battle, at least 12 had you buy and set up gambits. Outside of battle, there isn't much choice in the levelling system (although what really annoys me about is the stupidly convoluted way you are forced to get around it) and inside of battle, while you are encouraged to make on the spot changes to win battles quicker, you dont really need to do so more than once. 13 also fails completely in storyline (goes from 20 odd hours of dullness to insanely stupid at the end), characterisations (incredibly irritating, one dimensional JRPG tropes the lot of 'em, bar Sazh, who starts off interesting, but later turns ****) and world realisation (there just is no world, there are no towns to return to, no unimportant npcs to talk to, the one sidequest is essentially a one-player MMORPG grindfest).

Incidently, thespoonyexperiment has finally finished his decimating review of FFX, if anyone has been following him. His review of FF8 is good too.