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Child sex abuse - UK elite stayed silent
Comments
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Why is the Muslim population of the UK dispropotionally poor?
The most recent waves of immigrants tend to start at the bottom of the ladder. Their descendants gradually work their way up. The Irish ought to know this better than anyone - consider the status of the Irish in America between 1860 and 1960.Well, if one thousand Irish teens and one one thousand spanish teens
went to crete for a week.
Which group would cause the most drunken violence in your opinion
Is that a good argument? We Irish have your own cultue/crime issues which we are failing to address.
Im unsure. The Irish have a reputation for drinking more than the Spanish, but then the Irish also have a reputation for being able to hold their drink better than the Spanish. Have you ever seen a drunken Spanish person? There is a reason theyre not know for their drinking culture.
The Spanish teens might see the week in Crete as a once in a lifetime chance to act the fool and lose the run of themselves, buckling under the pressure of big game nerves. Irish teens are in training week in and week out all year round to handle the pressure. Irish conditioning and experience might win out.0 -
To say culture and race are the 'cause' is not only highly subjective but most of all for certain folk, convenient. Social standing and a perceived 'class' also have considerable effects on crime surely?Cork boy 55 wrote: »So you saying that culture and race play no part in crime. You are saying that Pakistani culture plays no part in this the fact that majority of victims are white
Its easy to be in opposition. Also ironic as he was minister for state in both departments under whose remit immigration came under (its obvious that this is subject has been hijacked as a concern of immigration rather than crime).Cork boy 55 wrote: »Even Jack Straw has acknowledged that 10 years too late
Thats roughly 9000 people out of how many? Around 2.5-3 million? You make this out to be an endemic invasion of criminals across the ditch.Cork boy 55 wrote: »On a macro-level can you also explain why 12% of england and wales prison population is muslim but they are 3% of population
What do you want them to do? Kick out British muslims in case they bump the crime stats up?0 -
Cork boy 55 wrote: »Thats like saying because the ryan report was published here
there was no cover up in ireland back in the day.
Well you see people have been put in jail both now and and in the past, and I have yet to here any suggestion that anyone has avoided jail time becaue of a cover up. You really will have to come up with more.Cork boy 55 wrote: »Please read my previous post and the
policemen featured. Who knows how many victims could have been saved
if the correct actions had been taken by Police,media, schools, pakistan community elders and politicans a decade ago.
The words of a single police man is hardly evidence of what you claim. Also, what about all the other ethnic groups engaged in these types of crimes, its seems a bit rich that there victims aren't worth a damn to some people. Whether you like it or not, these crimes happen amongst all communities, and your suggestion of focusing on just the one, is pretty damn pointless.Cork boy 55 wrote: »There was a culture of silence in the name of political correctness
and race relations
The culture of silence is something you are suggesting exists, but the fact that this has been brought up in the past by politicians, and arrests have taken place in the past as well, it seems to me that what people are complaining about is that peopel weren't actively demonizing Pakistani's.0 -
Ignoring the semantics of racism v xenophobia v bigotry, the poster thinks it is muslim-bashing regardless.
Human-trafficking or whatever the latest buzz-word in the likes of the Mail and Telegraph is (grooming?), is hardly exclusive to any single demographic in the UK. The common denominator is the criminal element. Not what religion, nationality, cultural background or race somebody is.
Culture has a very real bearing in this case.
Specifically the kind of patriarchal cultures that tend view women as chattel and property. This pervasive culture of female subjugation tends to lend itself to this sort of crime.
If you grow up in a household were your sister must cover her face or can be told at 17 that she has to go to pakistan to marry some thirty-five year old man that she has never met, or if you are brougt up to believe that western culture is not just different but wrong and that western women are all sluts, and child brides are culturally acceptable, then it's hardly surprising that you would have little concience about exploiting vunerable underage girls.
To dismiss a cultural element to this crime is to burry your head in the sand.0 -
Specifically the kind of patriarchal cultures that tend view women as chattel and property. This pervasive culture of female subjugation tends to lend itself to this sort of crime.
I am going to go out on a limb here as I did before, and say that people who engage in these types of crimes have a very low opinion of Women regardless of there cutlure.If you grow up in a household were your sister must cover her face or can be told at 17 that she has to go to pakistan to marry some thirty-five year old man that she has never met,
Well seeing as most Women from that community don't cover there faces to begin, it does show a hole in your argument. As for marriage, I agree that is an issue among Pakistani culture, but its an issue for both Males and Females, and is not just unique to Pakistani's but is also similar amongst most Asian communities.or if you are brougt up to believe that western culture is not just different but wrong and that western women are all sluts, and child brides are culturally acceptable, then it's hardly surprising that you would have little concience about exploiting vunerable underage girls.
I am sure some people believe that, but you would have to show that the attitude is widespread, and directly causes the behaviour. Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.To dismiss a cultural element to this crime is to burry your head in the sand.
For you claim there is a cultural element in all or most of these cases, you need to make the case first.0 -
Well seeing as most Women from that community don't cover there faces to begin, it does show a hole in your argument. As for marriage, I agree that is an issue among Pakistani culture, but its an issue for both Males and Females, and is not just unique to Pakistani's but is also similar amongst most Asian communities.
I hadn't claimed these practices were particular to Pakistani culture exclusively, merely that any culture that feels the need to tell women what to wear has a low opinion of women and an unhealthy fear of female sexuality that inevitably impacts on their view of women that do not adhere to such practices.I am sure some people believe that, but you would have to show that the attitude is widespread, and directly causes the behaviour. Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
But it does equal motivation. And yes, that attitude is widespread, as widespread as binge drinking is in our own culture.For you claim there is a cultural element in all or most of these cases, you need to make the case first.
It's common sense. Suggesting that a person's cultural upbringing has no baring on their attuitude to women and how you behave towards them is like saying that a binge drinking culture has no baring on our patterns of alcohol consumption in Ireland.0 -
I hadn't claimed these practices were particular to Pakistani culture exclusively, merely that any culture that feels the need to tell women what to wear has a low opinion of women and an unhealthy fear of female sexuality that inevitably impacts on their view of women that do not adhere to such practices.
Ok, so did it comtribute or directly lead to there crimes then? I could just as easily say there choice of victim was down to living in a community where most Women are white, and inevitably so would most of there victims.
I could also say the reason they avoided there own communties is that they felt they could be more readily identified in there own communities. I have no proof of that, but sure its certainly possible.But it does equal motivation. And yes, that attitude is widespread, as widespread as binge drinking is in our own culture.
I am sure the Men involved had a low opinon of Women, just like all men who commits such crimes probably do, regardless of there culture.It's common sense. Suggesting that a person's cultural upbringing has no baring on their attuitude to women and how you behave towards them is like saying that a binge drinking culture has no baring on our patterns of alcohol consumption in Ireland.
Saying its "common sense" is meaningless. You need to make a case for what your saying. I could just as easily claim something is "common sense" as well, and not make my case as well. Again, I have no doubt such men have horrible opinions of Women, but I would say the same of all such men regardless of culture.0 -
Saying its "common sense" is meaningless. You need to make a case for what your saying. I could just as easily claim something is "common sense" as well, and not make my case as well. Again, I have no doubt such men have horrible opinions of Women, but I would say the same of all such men regardless of culture.
Well let's attempt to apply a little common sense.
You don't doubt that such men have such men have a horrible opinion of women, correct?
What do you suppose is the source of that opinion? would it be the fact that they were raised in a culture that has a horrible opinion of women?
Being a misogynist does not of course determine that a person will become a rapist, but lets face it, all rapists are without exception misogynists. There may be many sources for a misogynists hatred of women, but a pervasive culture of misogyny in the home and in your community from birth would be a good place to start looking. No doubt other factors also come into play and I don't attribute the blame for the actions of these rapists to culture alone, but frankly, denying that culture as a factor is no different to denying the plain existence of the nose on your face.0 -
Well let's attempt to apply a little common sense.
Common sense doesn't equal proof. Now, common sense can be correct at times, but it can often be just a common assumption.You don't doubt that such men have such men have a horrible opinion of women, correct?
Of course, considering the crimes. Any man who would engage in such a crime probably has a low opinion of Women, or is some sort of sociopath, that could care less about people in general.What do you suppose is the source of that opinion? would it be the fact that they were raised in a culture that has a horrible opinion of women?
Could be, but I can't say for definite. It could be any number or reasons. You may be right in some cases, and completely wrong in others. The simple fact of the matter, unless people actually take the time to find out, we can't say anything for definite.Being a misogynist does not of course determine that a person will become a rapist, but lets face it, all rapists are without exception misogynists. There may be many sources for a misogynists hatred of women, but a pervasive culture of misogyny in the home and in your community from birth would be a good place to start looking. No doubt other factors also come into play and I don't attribute the blame for the actions of these rapists to culture alone, but frankly, denying that culture as a factor is no different to denying the plain existence of the nose on your face.
I am sure culture plays a factor in some cases, but how do you know they were all were raised in such an environment? Some people can be raised in a perfectly good family, be told to respect Women, that rape is evil and wrong and still have such attitudes, and even engage in sex abuse. The simple fact is that no one can say the exact reasons either way. Also, we can hardly know how these men were raised. You would have to show that they were raised in the environment you describe, you again have simple not shown that, just claimed that you are right on the basis of "common sense", which doesn't make it true at all.
Ultimately, we know that these criminals come from many different cultures, so why just focus on the one culture. Better to tackle this attitude amongst everyone surely.0 -
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Culture has a very real bearing in this case.
Specifically the kind of patriarchal cultures that tend view women as chattel and property. This pervasive culture of female subjugation tends to lend itself to this sort of crime.
If you grow up in a household were your sister must cover her face or can be told at 17 that she has to go to pakistan to marry some thirty-five year old man that she has never met, or if you are brougt up to believe that western culture is not just different but wrong and that western women are all sluts, and child brides are culturally acceptable, then it's hardly surprising that you would have little concience about exploiting vunerable underage girls.
To dismiss a cultural element to this crime is to burry your head in the sand.
With this so-clear-cut social psychological profiling of yours, explain the rest of the crime stats brought up. What about the other rapes? Just boys being boys is it?
Handily settling on one root cause is burying one's "head in the sand".
If its how this whole demographic is brought with attitudes to women, why aren't there figures showing hardline Sikhs, Hindi, hasidic or even orthodox Jews doing the same, given the relevant attitudes to women that these forms of their religions entail? You are assuming all muslims do what you describe. Do they really? Ineresting. What about the other religions I mentioned?
No arranged marriages, child brides, segregative practices regarding the two sexes?
Your generalisation doesn't even come close to explaining the causes of the human trafficking problem or any bloody crime at all.
And as with quite a few who take up your position, what do you propose doing about all this? Deportation? Where do you deport your own citizens to?0 -
With this so-clear-cut social psychological profiling of yours, explain the rest of the crime stats brought up. What about the other rapes? Just boys being boys is it?
Handily settling on one root cause is burying one's "head in the sand".
If its how this whole demographic is brought with attitudes to women, why aren't there figures showing hardline Sikhs, Hindi, hasidic or even orthodox Jews doing the same, given the relevant attitudes to women that these forms of their religions entail? You are assuming all muslims do what you describe. Do they really? Ineresting. What about the other religions I mentioned?
No arranged marriages, child brides, segregative practices regarding the two sexes?
Your generalisation doesn't even come close to explaining the causes of the human trafficking problem or any bloody crime at all.
And as with quite a few who take up your position, what do you propose doing about all this? Deportation? Where do you deport your own citizens to?
Of course criminals come from many different cultures.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that this sort of crime does not exist in any other culture, and I said before that culture is not the only determinate, despite your suggestion that I'm implying culture is the sole cause of the crimes, but I consider it an important contributory factor.
Sikhs, Hindi, hasidic or even orthodox Jews may well share similar attitudes, but we're talking about the specific issue that has been raised in this topic, not crime related to other cultures. When we are speaking specifically of Pakistani culture I think that there is something very rotten about it, just look at the state of Pakistan at the moment in the wake of Salmaan Taseer's assassination, the language of the mosques and the rise of an adherence to sharia law. This is what the most insular elements of that community have imported into the UK, and these extremist elements do not exist in, say, Hindi or Hasidic migrant groups, so your relativist argument is a poor comparison that just seeks to muddy the waters.
If you read the witness testimony, the language these men used, in their own words, to describe the girls, their attitude towards white women and western culture in general would point quite clearly to a cultural attitude that demeans women.
Nor did I advocate deporting people, what I am advocating is that such cultural attitudes should be no more tolerable then racist attitudes towards black people. The utter failure of multiculturalism is the double standard that it applies to what we once considered universal human rights, the cultural heritage of the West and the Enlightenment. It's time to be more culturally assertive in the West as our slide towards relativism is leading down a slippery slope. I'm reminded of the depressing sight of Brittan's Stop The War coalition, jointly led by the Socialist Workers Party and The Muslim Association of Britain, a group affiliated with the ultra islamist Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt whose aim it is to establish a theocratic state. Thus a party comitted to democracy secularism and feminism embraced a movement that is violently hostile to all of these values.
The reason that these cases of late have caused such disquiet is not down to good old fashioned racism, but the fear that they are symptomatic of a broader problem, a cultural one, and that these cases are in effect a dead canary in the mineshaft indicating that the particular brand and culture of islamism that is increasingly pervasive in the Pakistani community today is spiralling away from the normative influence of Western culture. Ignoring the cultural element of these crimes is to keep digging in the mine shaft and hoping the canary dropped dead of natural causes.0 -
The most recent waves of immigrants tend to start at the bottom of the ladder. Their descendants gradually work their way up. The Irish ought to know this better than anyone - consider the status of the Irish in America between 1860 and 1960.
I take your point that immigrants generally have a lower social status
than the majority of the country they are moving to and it takes time
for this to re-dress.
However to compare Pakistan guest workers moving to the UK
to fill labour shortages in the 1950 and 1960s A welfare state with the NHS
to Irish Immigrants coming to the 19th USA with nothing is a bogus
analogy. It fails to address also the relevant sucess of other groups compared to the pakistanis such as the Indians.0 -
To say culture and race are the 'cause' is not only highly subjective but most of all for certain folk, convenient. Social standing and a perceived 'class' also have considerable effects on crime surely?
Its easy to be in opposition. Also ironic as he was minister for state in both departments under whose remit immigration came under (its obvious that this is subject has been hijacked as a concern of immigration rather than crime).
Thats roughly 9000 people out of how many? Around 2.5-3 million? You make this out to be an endemic invasion of criminals across the ditch.
What do you want them to do? Kick out British muslims in case they bump the crime stats up?
Social standing and class have nothing to do with the crimes in the OP
Most people of any group/race are hard-working and law abiding. There is
no “criminal race"
However, culture/Race immigration and crime are all interlinked
If it can be proven that some groups are prone to crimnality or a certain type so of crimnality then it makes a compelling case for adopting a more consertive immigation policy towards these groups in favour of others.
FACT:
If the British had taken in Philippino or Hindi guest workers in
the 1950 or 1960s instead of pakistanis then the problem of "Asian" padeo grooming gangs (who are now present according to the head of bardobas charity in every nearly every city in england)
would not exist.
Ireland needs to adopt more conserative immigration polices and avoid
the fate of England.0 -
Cork boy 55 wrote: »I take your point that immigrants generally have a lower social status
than the majority of the country they are moving to and it takes time
for this to re-dress.
However to compare Pakistan guest workers moving to the UK
to fill labour shortages in the 1950 and 1960s A welfare state with the NHS
to Irish Immigrants coming to the 19th USA with nothing is a bogus
analogy. It fails to address also the relevant sucess of other groups compared to the pakistanis such as the Indians.
Well then, why do you think "the Muslim population of the UK" is "dispropotionally poor"?0 -
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Cork boy 55 wrote: »If the British had taken in Philippino or Hindi guest workers in
the 1950 or 1960s instead of pakistanis then the problem of "Asian" padeo grooming gangs (who are now present according to the head of bardobas charity in every nearly every city in england)
would not exist.
The Chief Exec of Barnados said the following:From http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition?INTCMP=SRCH
Martin Narey, the chief executive of Barnardo's, which has run projects in the areas concerned for many years, tells me that, while he is pleased to see open discussion of child sexual exploitation, he worries that "decent Pakistani men will now be looked at as potential child abusers". He insists: "This is not just about Pakistani men, and not just about Asian men. And it is happening all over the country."
While Narey acknowledges that "in the Midlands and north of England there does seem to be an over-representation of minority ethnic men in [offending] groups", he argues strongly that no useful conclusions can be drawn until the government undertakes a serious piece of research into what is a nationwide problem. (Keith Vaz, who chairs the Commons home affairs select committee called for such an inquiry today.) Narey also refutes the allegation that Muslim men are grooming white girls because of cultural assumptions about their sexual availability, as girls from minority backgrounds have been similarly abused.
(above emphasis mine)
Bloody hell, if you going to make claims about "facts", then you should make sure there are actually facts, and not stuff based on someone who you misquoted.
Secondly, your entire claims is nonsense, as there simply isn't enough data to say that Pakistani's are responsible for all the or even a majority of these crimes to being with, and to use flawed data to suggest that if there were no Pakistani's at all to suggest that it would never happen is absurd, and to be honest anyone who proposes some kind of alternative present, even with a lot of data, is essentially dealing in fiction, and no different than a charlatan with a crystal ball predicting the future, if they are actually trying to present such claims as anything other than fiction.0 -
No, of course they don't. There is no other 'group' committing crimes such as those brought up in the post.Cork boy 55 wrote: »Social standing and class have nothing to do with the crimes in the OP
If it wasn't for them, this sort of thing just wouldn't be happening...
Most people of any group/race are hard-working and law abiding. There is
no “criminal race"
However, culture/Race immigration and crime are all interlinked
If it can be proven that some groups are prone to crimnality or a certain type so of crimnality then it makes a compelling case for adopting a more consertive immigation policy towards these groups in favour of others[/quote]
I wouldn't agree in presuming an entire demograph is guilty til proven innocent. In fact, I'd be highly embarrassed if Ireland ever went down that road again (blocking Jewish refugees during the second world war except for a paltry number of 66, for example). Australia tried it in the 60s and 70s and it was obscene.
Apart from the ridiculous conclusion you post around the latest Mail buzzword, you show a clear misguided 'knowledge' of the migration history of Pakistani people to the UK. It was the 1970s and 80s when the migration from Pakistan was of the level which so outrages certain folk occurred, and for many reasons.Cork boy 55 wrote: »FACT:
If the British had taken in Philippino or Hindi guest workers in
the 1950 or 1960s instead of pakistanis then the problem of "Asian" padeo grooming gangs (who are now present according to the head of bardobas charity in every nearly every city in england) would not exist
Crime-free and in particular, Rape-free Ireland has been lucky indeed so far.Cork boy 55 wrote: »Ireland needs to adopt more conserative immigration polices and avoid the fate of England.0 -
Cork boy 55 wrote: »However to compare Pakistan guest workers moving to the UK to fill labour shortages in the 1950 and 1960s...
They didn't. There was a low number of Pakistanis migrating to the UK during the 50s and 60s, particularly in comparison to those from other countries.0 -
I taught the following was interesting:Child sex trafficking in UK on the rise with even younger victims targeted
White, black and Asian children at risk with abusers using mobiles and web to groom victims, say Barnardo's
--SNIP--
The main findings from the report, called Puppet on a String, include:
• Trafficking becoming more common and sexual exploitation more organised.
• Grooming methods becoming more sophisticated as abusers use a range of technology – mobile phones, including texts and picture messages, Bluetooth technology, and the internet – to control and abuse children.
The charity dealt with 1,098 children who had been groomed for sex last year, a 4% increase on the previous year.
A recent focus on the ethnicity of abusers risks putting more children in danger, said Carrie. "I am not going to say that ethnicity is not an issue in some geographical areas, it clearly is. But to think of it as the only determining factor is misleading and dangerous."
The issue has come under the spotlight after cases in Derby, where ringleaders of a gang of Asian men were jailed for grooming girls as young as 12 for sex, and in Rochdale, where nine mainly Asian men were arrested on Tuesday last week on suspicion of grooming a group of white teenage girls.
Carrie warned of the risk of the issue becoming dangerously simplified after comments from the former home secretary Jack Straw, who said some Pakistani men saw white girls as "easy meat".
The charity dealt with white, black and Asian victims, she said – whose voices were being lost. "Profiling and stereotyping is dangerous – we are scared that victims will say: 'I don't fit into that pattern, so I'm not being abused'."
The report identifies many different patterns of abuse, ranging from inappropriate relationships to organised networks of child trafficking.
Of Barnardo's 22 specialist services surveyed for the report, 21 had seen evidence of the trafficking of children through organised networks for sex, often with multiple men.
--SNIP--
Its sad that some seem more concerned with the ethnicity of some of these criminals, than actually tackling what seems to be a growing problem.0 -
Good to see we aren't getting some of the sweeping generalisations that plague these threads...
Anybody can quote half a sentence allow them to make a sweeping generalisation about a person's point. How about addressing the rest of the sentence?
.....I think that there is something very rotten about it, just look at the state of Pakistan at the moment in the wake of Salmaan Taseer's assassination, the language of the mosques and the rise of an adherence to sharia law. This is what the most insular elements of that community have imported into the UK0 -
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"The language of the mosques"??? What language? You are broad-brushing mosques in general. Unrealistic and way too generalistic which is ironic considering the quote above.Anybody can quote half a sentence allow them to make a sweeping generalisation about a person's point. How about addressing the rest of the sentence?
.....I think that there is something very rotten about it, just look at the state of Pakistan at the moment in the wake of Salmaan Taseer's assassination, the language of the mosques and the rise of an adherence to sharia law. This is what the most insular elements of that community have imported into the UK
Sharia Law is increasingly implemented in Pakistan is it?? What makes you say that?
(don't bother to quote me a wiki, a one-eyed website or the likes of the Daily Mail as 'proof' either).0 -
Anybody can quote half a sentence allow them to make a sweeping generalisation about a person's point.
Including the rest doesn't make it any less of a sweeping generalisation.How about addressing the rest of the sentence
The rant about pakistan that didn't seem to have much to do with the OP?.....I think that there is something very rotten about it, just look at the state of Pakistan at the moment in the wake of Salmaan Taseer's assassination, the language of the mosques and the rise of an adherence to sharia law. This is what the most insular elements of that community have imported into the UK
There are a number of regions within Pakistan, with seperate cultures, languages and attitudes towards religion. Somebody was good enough to mention this kind of thing earlier in the thread, if you'd bother to read it.
Sharia law and conservative Islam would be violently oppossed to "grooming" young women for sex.
The men who have been convicted for this offence could well have been born in Britain and never set foot in Pakistan.
To sum up, if you want to go on a rant about Pakistan, start a thread.0 -
Including the rest doesn't make it any less of a sweeping generalisation.
So, I look forward to your enlightening me on how in fact Pakistan has not for the last 20yrs been backsliding towards a theocracy, that militantism is in fact not on the rise and how the country hasn't become increasingly an socially conservative, Madrasa educated basket-case. And of course the fact that these developments have had no cultural impact in the country or on the attitudes it's migrant population in the UK.The rant about pakistan that didn't seem to have much to do with the OP?
It concerns a cultural attitude born in Pakistan that has been expressed by violent criminals in the UK, it is only irrelevant if you refuse to acknowledge any cultural element to the crimes committed.There are a number of regions within Pakistan, with seperate cultures, languages and attitudes towards religion. Somebody was good enough to mention this kind of thing earlier in the thread, if you'd bother to read it.
I did read it. Suggesting that you can't talk broadly about Pakistani culture is a bit like suggesting that you can't talk about Irish culture becase Kerry is so different from Dublin.Sharia law and conservative Islam would be violently oppossed to "grooming" young women for sex.
There is nothing in Catholic doctrine that encourages the sexual abuse of children but that did not stop members of the clergy perpetrating it. You could however argue that the culture of secrecy and subservience combined with the absolute authority of the priests contributed to it, just Sharia law's view of women and non-believers no doubt colors a perpetrators view of their victims, that much is clear from how the victims were spoken to by the perpetrators.
Again I look forward to your enlightening me about how Sharia law enshrines respect and equality between the sexes.The men who have been convicted for this offence could well have been born in Britain and never set foot in Pakistan.
To sum up, if you want to go on a rant about Pakistan, start a thread.
While these young men may never have set foot in Pakistan, it would seem that their minds have never set foot in Brittan.0 -
I did read it. Suggesting that you can't talk broadly about Pakistani culture is a bit like suggesting that you can't talk about Irish culture becase Kerry is so different from Dublin.
No, not accurate at all. It would more akin to comparing European countries actually e.g. you couldn't speak broadly of a European culture, because for example Ireland and Germany would be culturally very different.
So, in the case of Pakistan to compare the Punjab, which has more in common culturally with India, with the North West Frontier Province which has more in common with Afghanistan, is comparing Apples and Oranges.
Lastly, the event in Pakistan are entirely irrelevant, and you have to provide any kind of link to them, to the topic we are discussing on this thread, other than you insisting there is one. You have yet to establish that culture is the prime motivator of these criminals, and you have continually ignored the simple fact that these crimes are carried out by many different ethnic groups, and have shown a bizare and entirely pointless obsession with the ethnicity of some of these perpetrators, and I think the following shows why it is pointless:
(above emphasis mine)Children as young as 10 'groomed for sex by gangs'
--SNIP--
Earlier this month, two married British men of Pakistani origin were jailed in Derby for grooming and abusing several teenage girls. The former home secretary Jack Straw later claimed some Pakistani men believed white girls were "easy meat", but he was immediately criticised for his remarks.
Following the case, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (Ceop) announced that it had begun a study "to identify any patterns of offending, victimisation or vulnerability".
Ms Carrie said the children at the heart of the issue had "been forgotten as discussion has focused on the ethnicity of perpetrators in high-profile cases".
"Without a minister with overall responsibility the government response is likely to remain inadequate," she added.
--SNIP--
It seems to me some people are more concerned with particular agenda's against certain minorities, and don't really care about the victims, and would rather desperately grasp at straws, as opposed to looking for more data to back up there as yet unproven claims (and that is being kind imho), and have ignored new data, that actually run counter to there current claims.0 -
So, I look forward to your enlightening me on how in fact Pakistan has not for the last 20yrs been backsliding towards a theocracy, that militantism is in fact not on the rise and how the country hasn't become increasingly an socially conservative, Madrasa educated basket-case. And of course the fact that these developments have had no cultural impact in the country or on the attitudes it's migrant population in the UK.
.
The vast majority of the "migrant community" left more than 20 years ago. Even then, no small number didn't come directly from Pakistan, but from Uganda.It concerns a cultural attitude born in Pakistan that has been expressed by violent criminals in the UK, it is only irrelevant if you refuse to acknowledge any cultural element to the crimes committed..
I remember one case and a series of allegations relating to exploitation of vulnerable young girls here. There were no persons from Pakistan involved. Suffice to say that its obvious that this problem is not distinct to persons originating from that country.I did read it. Suggesting that you can't talk broadly about Pakistani culture is a bit like suggesting that you can't talk about Irish culture becase Kerry is so different from Dublin. ..
Dear o dear.....
Pakistan contains 170 Million people speaking 10/11 major languages and about 12 minor ones, largely split between Hindus, Shia and Sunni muslims, with any number of smaller congregations of other religions, further divided into 6 main ethnic groups with numerous minor ones. It's territory contains some areas only nominally part of the state and administered solely by its tribal inhabitants.
So no, it's not possible to talk broadly about "Pakistani culture".There is nothing in Catholic doctrine that encourages the sexual abuse of children but that did not stop members of the clergy perpetrating it. You could however argue that the culture of secrecy and subservience combined with the absolute authority of the priests contributed to it, just Sharia law's view of women and non-believers no doubt colors a perpetrators view of their victims, that much is clear from how the victims were spoken to by the perpetrators...
Bit odd how most women trafficked for prostitution (a quite similar crime, in many ways) apparently come from largely christian orthodox states in eastern europe then, isn't it...Again I look forward to your enlightening me about how Sharia law enshrines respect and equality between the sexes. ...
Behold ye, the man made of straw.0 -
a lot of these young men of muslim background,are in a limbo,cannot go around dating other asians,drinking or smoking like other western young men do, you can see them any night of the week cruising about the towns and cities at night ,how do i know this ? untill recently i lived in bury for 30 years,one of the towns that some of the gang members were arrested in,it has a large ethnic population,99.9% of them are intergrated with society,and the nicest gentle people you will meet, but there has always been a handfull that believe they will get away with anything, yet western youngsters would be picked up by the police,with asian lads it is a .lets not make ripples.No, not accurate at all. It would more akin to comparing European countries actually e.g. you couldn't speak broadly of a European culture, because for example Ireland and Germany would be culturally very different.
So, in the case of Pakistan to compare the Punjab, which has more in common culturally with India, with the North West Frontier Province which has more in common with Afghanistan, is comparing Apples and Oranges.
Lastly, the event in Pakistan are entirely irrelevant, and you have to provide any kind of link to them, to the topic we are discussing on this thread, other than you insisting there is one. You have yet to establish that culture is the prime motivator of these criminals, and you have continually ignored the simple fact that these crimes are carried out by many different ethnic groups, and have shown a bizare and entirely pointless obsession with the ethnicity of some of these perpetrators, and I think the following shows why it is pointless:
(above emphasis mine)
It seems to me some people are more concerned with particular agenda's against certain minorities, and don't really care about the victims, and would rather desperately grasp at straws, as opposed to looking for more data to back up there as yet unproven claims (and that is being kind imho), and have ignored new data, that actually run counter to there current claims.0 -
yet western youngsters would be picked up by the police,with asian lads it is a .lets not make ripples.
I think you will find that to be incorrect actually:Asian men targeted in stop and search
Huge rise in number questioned under anti-terror laws
--SNIP--
The use of counter-terrorism stop and search powers has increased sevenfold since the July 7 attacks on Britain, with Asian people bearing the brunt of the increase, the Guardian has learned.
People of Asian appearance were five times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people, according to the latest figures compiled by British Transport police. None of the stops have resulted in a terrorism charge, the force said.
The statistics were the first from any force on the terrorism frontline and came amid rows about who police should target and how often they should use powers allowing officers to search people without having reasonable grounds to suspect them.
Unpublished figures from July 7 to August 10 showed that the transport police carried out 6,747 stops under anti-terrorism laws, with the majority in London.
The force recorded 2,390 stops of Asian people, 35% of the total, and 2,168 of white people, who were 32% of the total. In London Asian people comprise 12% of the population, while white people are 63%.
In June the force stopped 408 people nationwide, with less of a focus on Asian people than a month later. Of that month's stops, 51% were white, 8.6% were African-Caribbean, and 16.2% were Asian.
The stops and searches in July led to 25 arrests for mainly drugs and weapons offences.
--SNIP--
Now to be fair, those numbers are a few years old, and in London, but it does show me that the police aren't partilcularly sensitive to minority communities in London, and I doubt they are elsewhere.
**EDIT**
Found are more recent story, with more recent figures:Black and Asian people targeted in stop and search surge
Number of black people stopped by police rose 322% after failed 2007 London bomb attack
Black and Asian people were disproportionately targeted by police in a surge in the use of stop and search under counterterrorism laws in the wake of the failed 2007 London bomb attack, according to official figures published today.
Click here for full article
**END EDIT**0 -
you cannot compare terrorist arrests/searches to general criminal activity,the police were searching for asian terrorists,so you search asians, 10 years ago when working in security in manchester,during the IRA bombings we was told be alert for people with irish accents,i am sure irish people were searched more than any other nationality at that time,I think you will find that to be incorrect actually:
Now to be fair, those numbers are a few years old, and in London, but it does show me that the police aren't partilcularly sensitive to minority communities in London, and I doubt they are eslewhere.0 -
Yes, being the right age group and with the right accent, 60 now and from Donegal, I can remember being questioned by police at airports and ports in the UK through the 70s.you cannot compare terrorist arrests/searches to general criminal activity,the police were searching for asian terrorists,so you search asians, 10 years ago when working in security in manchester,during the IRA bombings we was told be alert for people with irish accents,i am sure irish people were searched more than any other nationality at that time,0 -
you cannot compare terrorist arrests/searches to general criminal activity,
They haven't caught a single terrorist by doing that btw.the police were searching for asian terrorists,so you search asians, 10 years ago when working in security in manchester,during the IRA bombings we was told be alert for people with irish accents,i am sure irish people were searched more than any other nationality at that time,
I am not debating the rights or wrongs of the tactic (with a 0% success rate of catching terrorists, there is no need for detate, the tactic is a failure). It does however show that the Police aren't shy about searching Asian Men randomly, and don't seem bothered even, when there tactic is shown to essentially failed in its stated aim. So I fail to see the so called sensitivity around the Asian community at all, which is why I brought it up.0 -
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Judging from what is in the news today, the likes of the police have a lot to answer for again.0
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steelcityblues wrote: »Judging from what is in the news today, the likes of the police have a lot to answer for again.
Do please elaborate.0 -
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steelcityblues wrote: »This is alleged to have been going on in Rochdale as far back as 2008. Pretty slow to act, don't you think?
.....again, you're being vague. Are you saying the police ignored the problem? Have you some evidence for this?
I looked at the reportage from the Guardian and the Beeb and I don't see what the comment "Judging from what is in the news today, the likes of the police have a lot to answer for again. " is based on. If the police aren't aware of a crime, they can't prosecute.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17117530A group of 11 men plied girls as young as 13 with drink and drugs so they could use them for sex, a court has heard.
The offences are said to have happened in and around Rochdale, Greater Manchester, in 2008 and 2009.0 -
The arrests were after a 'three month' investigation, so that means they only started investigating last Autumn. Rochdale is not a big city - only a town. Things can't be kept secret for long.
Were they afraid of offending 'cultural sensitivities' or some crap, before then?0 -
steelcityblues wrote: »The arrests were after a 'three month' investigation, so that means they only started investigating last Autumn. Rochdale is not a big city - only a town. Things can't be kept secret for long.
Were they afraid of offending 'cultural sensitivities' or some crap, before then?
For the love of christ...............we live in a small country where the worst large scale excesses imaginable were kept secret for decades.
Have you any evidence or source listing same that the police deliberately avoided prosecution due to what you claim?0 -
For the love of christ...............we live in a small country where the worst large scale excesses imaginable were kept secret for decades.
Have you any evidence or source listing same that the police deliberately avoided prosecution due to what you claim?
Yet of course certain people knew about priests abusing kids, yet had to keep their mouths shuts because of the prevailing mindset of the time. Does not make it right. Same with the brown envelopes.
Not to do specifically with Rochdale, but Ann Cryer - a former labour MP in a north of England constituency - said in a BBC interview not so long ago that as far back as about 2003 she had several talks with mothers of girls concerned about Pakistani males grooming girls. Long before widespread media coverage of this, like the excellent C4 documentary.
There ya go, a popular Labour MP saying this, and not some big, bad racist BNP or UKIP chappie. But I expect you to stubbornly cling on to your fantasy world on this.0 -
steelcityblues wrote: ».................
There ya go, a popular Labour MP saying this, and not some big, bad racist BNP or UKIP chappie. But I expect you to stubbornly cling on to your fantasy world on this.
.......it isn't me who keeps trotting on about the police when theres a complete absence of evidence for such claims. When or if such arises, I'll be glad to discuss the matter.0 -
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.......it isn't me who keeps trotting on about the police when theres a complete absence of evidence for such claims. When or if such arises, I'll be glad to discuss the matter.
Oh there is, here's another. The last one I will post if you continue to use the evidence word, despite me providing several examples.
‘The main pressure police have is being called institutionally racist if they highlight a crime trend like this.
‘There’s a fantastic reluctance to be absolutely straight because some people may take such offence.’
The words of Mick Gradwell, a former Detective superintendent in Lancashire, from last month.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346291/Police-chief-We-speak-Asian-sex-gangs-appearing-racist.html0 -
steelcityblues wrote: »Oh there is, here's another. The last one I will post if you continue to use the evidence word, despite me providing several examples.
‘The main pressure police have is being called institutionally racist if they highlight a crime trend like this.
‘There’s a fantastic reluctance to be absolutely straight because some people may take such offence.’
The words of Mick Gradwell, a former Detective superintendent in Lancashire, from last month.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346291/Police-chief-We-speak-Asian-sex-gangs-appearing-racist.html
This is the first directly related one you've posted.
It has to be said that the words of a former cop in the Mail isn't the most convincing thing you could have come up with. However, at no stage does he state or allege that the police were "Pretty slow to act" or that an investigation was delayed or avoided because fear of "offending 'cultural sensitivities'" as you put it.0 -
This is the first directly related one you've posted.
It has to be said that the words of a former cop in the Mail isn't the most convincing thing you could have come up with. However, at no stage does he state or allege that the police were "Pretty slow to act" or that an investigation was delayed or avoided because fear of "offending 'cultural sensitivities'" as you put it.
You're being silly there. When the guy says the police fear being seen as institutionally racist, it is basically the same thing.0 -
steelcityblues wrote: »You're being silly there. When the guy says the police fear being seen as institutionally racist, it is basically the same thing.
Allow me to bold the important part there" However, at no stage does he state or allege that the police were "Pretty slow to act" or that an investigation was delayed or avoided"0 -
The same town in North West of England, and another trial on the way.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143366/Police-uncover-second-child-sex-ring-Rochdale-woman-says-abused-years.html?ito=feeds-newsxml0 -
it must be dinner time........never seen so much tripe in all my life.....0
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I am truly disgusted. Here we have liberals who are more than happy to cover up rapes by moslems to "prevent" racism. Are there no limits as to how low liberals will stoop? I consider every single liberal in England to be an accomplice to rape. They were the ones who were more than happy to sell England for 30 pieces of silver.0
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Invader_Zimmy wrote: »I am truly disgusted. Here we have liberals who are more than happy to cover up rapes by moslems to "prevent" racism.
The men are in jail, so this is probably one of the worse cover up's ever.Invader_Zimmy wrote: »Are there no limits as to how low liberals will stoop? I consider every single liberal in England to be an accomplice to rape.
Considering that there was no cover up, claiming that Liberals are accomplices, is a rather nasty little smear.
BTW, Nick Griffin nearly got the case thrown out, when he tweeted the verdict early. In fact, his stupidity may cause future legal problems in regards to this case. Seems to me the far right are the one who have put prosecution of these men in danger and not liberals.0 -
Invader_Zimmy wrote: »I am truly disgusted. Here we have liberals who are more than happy to cover up rapes by moslems to "prevent" racism. Are there no limits as to how low liberals will stoop? I consider every single liberal in England to be an accomplice to rape. They were the ones who were more than happy to sell England for 30 pieces of silver.
Yer last few sentences are OTT, but you have a point about many of today's 'liberals', who are more worried about 'keeping face', than being consistent on these issues.
Ann Cryer MP has already said that police feared being seen as racist, if they developed a no nonsense policy towards these gangs,and not many of her party colleagues seemed to back her up.
I think it is too easy for a lot of upper middle class liberals to ignore thse issues, because it happens to girls who grew up in tough estates. A touch of NIMBY about it all.0 -
steelcityblues wrote: »Yer last few sentences are OTT, but you have a point about many of today's 'liberals', who are more worried about 'keeping face', than being consistent on these issues.
......do please explain.0 -
Considering that there was no cover up, claiming that Liberals are accomplices, is a rather nasty little smear.
Excuse me, did you even read the thread? It has already been established that there was a cover-up. The liberal media are shivering in their boots at the prospect of being labeled racist for reporting the truth, so they turn a blind eye.Most agencies have publicly denied a link between ethnicity and the grooming of vulnerable girls as young as 11 on streets by criminal gangs of pimps. But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white, The Times reported.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8240202/Cover-up-claims-over-Asian-sex-gangs.html
The first step of dealing with a problem is acknowledging that a problem exists. Now, do you acknowledge that there is an endemic problem of pedophilia among the Pakistani Muslim community in Britain? Please leave your own personal religious allegiances at the door.
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