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Refund from BA through cheaptickets.

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  • 07-01-2011 10:57am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭


    Last March I booked a flight to Montana to visit my best friend and got some good rates through cheaptickets.com. The flight was AerLingus to London then from London on to Calgary with British Airways. Same business coming back two weeks later. The whole thing worked out around €500 about 100 of which was tax.

    Literally a week before departure I was contacted by an Orbitz rep advising me that due to industrial action the BA leg of my trip was cancelled and that I could request a refund or credit on the booking. I went away to have a think about it and the date for departure came and went. Then I got very sick so I stuck a pin in it thinking (wrongly) that it would stand as credit. When I did try to contact them none of the numbers worked and I finally got in touch recently.

    They told me that I was required to make the request before the scheduled departure date, which I wasn't told at the time, and that BA are one of the 'restricted' airlines that won't process a refund after the departure date. My main bones of contention are this. Firstly that ET had more success phoning home than I did getting in contact with Cheaptickets and secondly can BA seriously refuse to refund on a cancelled flight at any point. Apparently I'm entitled to the tax but I'm still in the hole for €400. If it is what it is I'll accept it, it just seems all a bit strange.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    So almost 12 months to take up the offer and your only doing it now...it mustn't have been too much of a worry even before your sick.

    Have you read BA's T&C's as well as the crowd you booked through to know what they can or cannot do?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    I'm working on the matter seperately but was hoping to get some opinions. Nothing like hearing practical experiences.

    BTW mentioning my sickness wasn't an invitation for flippancy. You don't know what my condition was.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,998 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Practical experience tells me that you have a chance of something more back but it is slim.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Other people's experiences having no baring on your actual complaint, secondly you asking "can BA seriously refuse to refund on a cancelled flight at any point."

    BA's T&C's likely outline if they can or not, I'd recommend you read them as you agreed to them in the first place and it appears you didn't read them then. I'd also suggest the same with Cheaptickets.com.

    If they outline it in the T&C's they are not legally obliged to tell you over the telephone as you've already read and agreed to the T&C's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Apparently I'm entitled to the tax but I'm still in the hole for €400. If it is what it is I'll accept it, it just seems all a bit strange.

    I don't know. It doesn't seem strange to me. They asked did you want a refund. You did not tell them anything at the time and come back almost a year later looking for a refund.

    Seems to me they'd be in their right to say no. But you should check the t&c's they'll tell you for sure.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Sorry I should have mentioned that while the booking was made in March but scheduled for May. Late May to early December when I got through to them is just over six months. In any case 6 weeks or 6 months it appears the die was cast after 1 week.

    Look I'm not trying to act the victim, I didn't read the T&C's, but I feel I was given the impression that I had more time. I certainly wasn't told the reclaim period was one week. TBH I started the thread to look for experiences that superceded the red tape. I've worked for a number of companies that did so for customer retention purposes. According to BA's T&C's they explain that they may decide to refuse a refund beyond the ticketing period, so ity's not exactly set in stone. Just wanted to hear any experiences dealing with either company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭digital_d


    Most Airline tickets, even E Tickets have the restrictions and endorsements noted in them, for example, here's a quick copy and paste from an Aer Lingus itinerary amendment I got due to a weather cancellation:

    Restrictions/Endorsements
    INVOL DUE WX
    NO RFND/CHG FEE APPLIES
    CXL BY FLT DT OR NO VALUE

    This indicated that I could change or amend my flight further for no refund of cancellation fee, the last line indicates I must cancel by flight depart or no the ticket is of no value.

    For most special price tickets, the endorsement - CXL BY FLT DT OR NO VALUE - is very common and noted somewhere on your ticket/or itinerary, or terms and conditions when booking - as in this copy and past from ba.com

    Changes
    Time/date changes permitted at any time before each flight departure for a change fee of £ 90 or an upgrade fee of £ 90 plus any difference in fare. Changes subject to availability. Fees apply per ticket
    If you want to cancel your flight
    There are no refunds except for any government & airport taxes

    Although your change was in voluntary, not resolving it before the departure probably isn't going to override the fare conditions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    digital_d wrote: »
    Most Airline tickets, even E Tickets have the restrictions and endorsements noted in them, for example, here's a quick copy and paste from an Aer Lingus itinerary amendment I got due to a weather cancellation:

    Restrictions/Endorsements
    INVOL DUE WX
    NO RFND/CHG FEE APPLIES
    CXL BY FLT DT OR NO VALUE

    This indicated that I could change or amend my flight further for no refund of cancellation fee, the last line indicates I must cancel by flight depart or no the ticket is of no value.

    For most special price tickets, the endorsement - CXL BY FLT DT OR NO VALUE - is very common and noted somewhere on your ticket/or itinerary, or terms and conditions when booking - as in this copy and past from ba.com

    Changes
    Time/date changes permitted at any time before each flight departure for a change fee of £ 90 or an upgrade fee of £ 90 plus any difference in fare. Changes subject to availability. Fees apply per ticket
    If you want to cancel your flight
    There are no refunds except for any government & airport taxes

    Although your change was in voluntary, not resolving it before the departure probably isn't going to override the fare conditions.
    It actually didn't say it on the eticket. To be honest I think in future I'll just deal with the Airline directly and cut out the middle man. As I said it's impossible to contact these resale companies. I'll just have to take this one on the chin and be more careful in future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,213 ✭✭✭daenerysstormborn3


    It would be my assumption (from regular dealings with Irish Rail) that any cancellations in relation to travel would need to be made before the date of travel, would this not be the assumption of most people?

    OP, why did it take you so long to contact them about a refund? What I understand from your post is that you booked the tickets in March for travel in May and tried to get a refund in December, is that correct?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    It would be my assumption (from regular dealings with Irish Rail) that any cancellations in relation to travel would need to be made before the date of travel, would this not be the assumption of most people?
    That's not what happened in this case at all. I didn't cancel the flight, it was cancelled by BA due to industrial action which lasted for a number of weeks, even if I had chosen to rebook they wouldn't have been able to provide it. I don't think one should have to request a refund when it is the fault of the vendor. I mean did BA think that I was letting them keep the fare out of the goodness of my heart? They have essentially kept money for a service they didn't provide.

    I think it's disgraceful that a situation is their fault yet the customer has to do the chasing not forgetting the fact that none of the numbers I was provided with were actually operational from the ROI.
    OP, why did it take you so long to contact them about a refund? What I understand from your post is that you booked the tickets in March for travel in May and tried to get a refund in December, is that correct?
    I spent a number of months suffering from a debilitating sickness and I'm still not out of the woods. I mentioned the reason in my OP.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭jor el


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Literally a week before departure I was contacted by an Orbitz rep advising me that due to industrial action the BA leg of my trip was cancelled and that I could request a refund or credit on the booking. I went away to have a think about it and the date for departure came and went.

    This is the key to your issue, and the reason you may not get any money back. They offered you a refund, or credit on the ticket, but you took neither. When the flight date came and went, you may have been classed as a no-show since you hadn't changed detail for the cancelled flight. It really all comes down to the T&Cs and what's in there regarding cancelled flights. Check with cheaptickets as well as BA, but since your contract was with cheaptickets then that's where you should start.

    The only other recourse you might have would be a credit card chargeback, though given the amount of time that's passed since you paid, it's doubtful that the bank would get involved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    jor el wrote: »
    This is the key to your issue, and the reason you may not get any money back. They offered you a refund, or credit on the ticket, but you took neither. When the flight date came and went, you may have been classed as a no-show since you hadn't changed detail for the cancelled flight. It really all comes down to the T&Cs and what's in there regarding cancelled flights. Check with cheaptickets as well as BA, but since your contract was with cheaptickets then that's where you should start.

    The only other recourse you might have would be a credit card chargeback, though given the amount of time that's passed since you paid, it's doubtful that the bank would get involved.
    To be fair I'm not expressing myself as well as I could be (I blame the meds :)). They didn't offer it they told me it was an option. The reps exact words were 'have a think about it'. That's the last I heard from him.

    Look I'm not getting the cash and this was probably a thread of desperation but I appreciate all the feedback. Life goes on. Fe*k it, it is what it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,998 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Credit card chargeback won't work for two reasons...

    1. 180 days have passed
    2. They kept within Terms and Conditions, and those terms were not anyway unreasonable. Card issuer's have a pretty cosy relationship with airlines so a "non delivery of service" chargeback won't fly (excuse the pun).

    You have to realise that modern airlines make a LOT of their revenue from breakage (unused flights). This is now a core part of their business, especially low cost airlines. No sob story, or missed connection, makes a difference. That's what travel insurance is for (in their eyes)... the old days of free changes, provisional bookings, etc, are long gone.

    I would say based on the info posted above that you haven't a chance of getting anything bsck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    3DataModem wrote: »
    You have to realise that modern airlines make a LOT of their revenue from breakage (unused flights). This is now a core part of their business, especially low cost airlines.
    Yes but when the fault is theirs? I didn't arrive late at the airport etc they cancelled my flight
    No sob story, or missed connection, makes a difference.
    the old days of free changes, provisional bookings, etc, are long gone.
    We're not talking about free changes etc, we're talking about a company that tried to screw their cabin staff and in turn their customers.

    Nobody has yet explained to me why companies such as BA are allowed to pass the onus onto the customer when they fail to conduct their business properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    Everybody is clear that BA cancelled the flight, not OP, right?

    BA's Ts&Cs can go **** themselves. They're in a heavily regulated industry so I would check out your rights under EU regulations etc.

    You may have a problem because you left it so long, but I don't see how the departure date itself can be some sort of cut-off. After they cancel the flight there is no departure date and they can't call you a no-show. However there may be some sort of cut-off between then and now, I have no idea.

    When the volcanic ash was over Europe I had an Aer Lingus flight cancelled. I didn't do anything about it for months, but when I eventually rang to arrange a new date there was no problem and no mention of original departure dates.

    Certainly unless you've left out something I wouldn't give up on this yet. Call and talk to somebody else then write them a letter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Zab wrote: »
    Everybody is clear that BA cancelled the flight, not OP, right?
    I don't think so. I was starting to wonder if anyone actually read my OP lol. Ok this is more what I was looking for. No I haven't left anything out. BA say they may decide to refuse a refund but don't expand on what determines their decision. If T&C's are so important to people then these companies should stipulate exactly what happens in all eventualties including industrial action which BA don't. And I vehemently stand by my judgement that it should be the company that pursues the customer I mean we're not talking about the price of a toaster.

    It's significant that you should mention the ash cloud because a lot of companies T&C's were seen to conflict with EU regulation whether people agreed to them or not. So I agree, T&C's don't neccessarily mean squat.

    Like I said I wish I was dealing directly with them but it's through Orbitz.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Zab wrote: »
    Everybody is clear that BA cancelled the flight, not OP, right?

    BA's Ts&Cs can go **** themselves. They're in a heavily regulated industry so I would check out your rights under EU regulations etc.


    Zab, you are clear that OP was contacted by the vendor and advised that he/she could have a refund/rebook but left it for almost a year, I'm sorry but I have absolutely no sympathy and I am surprised OP thinks he/she should have any right to a refund, why did OP not request a refund straight away and then take time to consider rebook dates?.

    As for your Ts&Cs, the purchasers agrees to them when making a booking so has no rights unless they were illegal in the first place, to any refund.

    The OP was offered the opportunity of a full refund and through his/her own neglect, blew it. OP I know you were sick but I assume you did not become ill the minute the travel company rang about the cancellation.

    You have no rights in this so qtake whatever you are being offered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    davo10 wrote: »
    Zab wrote: »
    Everybody is clear that BA cancelled the flight, not OP, right?

    BA's Ts&Cs can go **** themselves. They're in a heavily regulated industry so I would check out your rights under EU regulations etc.


    Zab, you are clear that OP was contacted by the vendor and advised that he/she could have a refund/rebook but left it for almost a year, I'm sorry but I have absolutely no sympathy and I am surprised OP thinks he/she should have any right to a refund, why did OP not request a refund straight away and then take time to consider rebook dates?.

    As for your Ts&Cs, the purchasers agrees to them when making a booking so has no rights unless they were illegal in the first place, to any refund.

    The OP was offered the opportunity of a full refund and through his/her own neglect, blew it. OP I know you were sick but I assume you did not become ill the minute the travel company rang about the cancellation.

    You have no rights in this so qtake whatever you are being offered.
    I was offered NOTHING. I was informed of my options, refund/credit, but the agent who advised me was not authorised to provide either and then gave me a number that didn't work.

    May to December is not a year.

    And lastly at no point did I ask for sympathy nor do I want it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Okay I'm gone from this thread

    *clicks unfollow*

    Goodbye


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    I'm amazed at the extremes to which people have gone to on this thread to ignore what I said and contrive judgement.

    I explained that the period was 7 months tops, yet people insist on claiming it was a year.
    I explained that I was advised of my options yet people insist that I was offered the options.
    I explained that I felt under the circumstances the onus was on BA to ensure the refund yet no one can explain why it should be me.
    I explained that I was supplied with phone numbers that didn't work.

    In any other industry this would not be allowed. If a company could not supply a good or service agreed upon they would be obliged to make the neccessary financial arrangements. What's so special about BA?

    I have no problem with being judged so long as people don't put words in my mouth.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    MyKeyG,

    You were advised that you "could request a refund or credit on the booking." You failed to act on that advice for whatever reason.

    Rude and abnoxious posts and insulting other posters will not get you the answer you want to hear.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    OP we are not judging you but many readers may feel that this situation is mostly of your own making and cannot understand how this is a consumer issue per say, you were advised of the refund/rebook and it makes no difference if it was 1 year, 7 months, 7 weeks or 7 days, The Ts&Cs advised you of the vendors policy and you agreed to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭mad m


    Sorry a bit OT.

    Did you have travel insurance? If you did you can claim for a cancelled flight also.....

    Most travel insurances have this in there...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    davo10 wrote: »
    As for your Ts&Cs, the purchasers agrees to them when making a booking so has no rights unless they were illegal in the first place, to any refund.

    I think we're more or less on the same page here. OP will have some rights that can't be rescinded by Ts&Cs, and in a regulated industry such as the airline industry he will likely have even more than usual. Until you actually get into a court then Ts&Cs are just words that the airline are going to point at. Beyond your consumer rights and those added by the EU regs, if the issue goes to court the judge will decide whether the terms are fair or not, whatever those terms may be. Just because BA stick them on their website doesn't mean a judge is going to agree to uphold them.
    Zab, you are clear that OP was contacted by the vendor and advised that he/she could have a refund/rebook but left it for almost a year, I'm sorry but I have absolutely no sympathy and I am surprised OP thinks he/she should have any right to a refund, why did OP not request a refund straight away and then take time to consider rebook dates?.

    Yes, I am clear on that but I'm not sure that I understand your lack of sympathy. OP paid for a flight that BA failed to deliver, as such they should owe him a refund for the money he paid. Otherwise they've just taken his money for nothing. Realistically there has to be an amount of time after which BA can write off the debt as they can't have it on their books indefinitely, but people seem to think that the flight time is in some way reasonable for a cancelled flight situation such as this. A flight could be cancelled five minutes before departure time or even after departure time. Even if it turns out that BA are 100% legally ironclad to deny the refund (and this is obviously possible) I still wouldn't understand your lack of sympathy as to my mind they clearly owe him the money. They could have just refunded his credit card to begin with, I don't see why it's fair for them to give him rope to hang himself with, particularly if the Orbitz rep let him hang up the phone without telling him he only had a week to get this sorted.

    So I had to look up the Ts&Cs to see exactly what they said
    10e1) We may decide to refuse to give you a refund if you apply for it after the end of the ticket validity period.
    There are situations where I would consider that to be fair, but OP's is not one of them (see the Ts&Cs for examples, lost tickets, voluntary refunds etc). There are also situations in the Ts&Cs where it would be undeniably unfair (refunds for "fail to stop at your place of destination or stopover" for example) so it clearly isn't applicable to all situations.

    OP, it isn't clear to me where you are with this. Are Orbitz saying that they've contacted BA and they've refused a refund for your particular case or are they just erroneously stating BA policy? I would also be worried about your return flight, which you may be considered a no-show for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Zab wrote: »
    Yes, I am clear on that but I'm not sure that I understand your lack of sympathy. OP paid for a flight that BA failed to deliver, as such they should owe him a refund for the money he paid. .

    There it is, the reason I have no sympathy is that OP was offered a full refund but did not avail of it in time. How many times have you read posts on this consumer issue forum where the OP's feel hard done by because they are not being offered a refund, some who genuinely deserve it, in this case the OP had that offered to him and is now moaning that 7 months later, after the relevant date as per Ts&Cs, he cannot get a refund, I do not see this as a consumer issue, I see this as the OP losing out because of tardiness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    davo10 wrote: »
    There it is, the reason I have no sympathy is that OP was offered a full refund but did not avail of it in time. How many times have you read posts on this consumer issue forum where the OP's feel hard done by because they are not being offered a refund, some who genuinely deserve it, in this case the OP had that offered to him and is now moaning that 7 months later, after the relevant date as per Ts&Cs, he cannot get a refund, I do not see this as a consumer issue, I see this as the OP losing out because of tardiness.
    Could you please provide evidence where:
    A: I was offered a refund.
    B: That the time period has anything to do with it
    C: I feel hard done by
    D: I'm moaning
    E: That I'm looking for sympathy

    A: The individual who advised the refund could not offer it. He was not authorised to action anything due to the fact that it dealt with sensitive financial information. So I was NOT offered a refund by anyone.
    B: The point is moot as I was contacted a 7 days before departure, even if I had tried to avail of anything after 8 days Orbitz are telling me that I would have been a day too late.
    C&D: I clearly said that if it is what it is I'll accept it but so far all but one poster has played spin and contrivance with my posts.
    E: I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm looking for answers. BA T&C's make provision for exception to requests made after the ticket validity period and I wish to know what does exceptions are. Therefore your tardiness argument is null and void until such time as these exceptions can be established.

    And I would greatly appreciate if you would give this genuine. Why do you feel the customer and not the company should do all the donkey work in getting back a refund (again bearing in mind I wasn't offered one by phone or writing) I was told I could make the request.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Zab wrote: »
    OP, it isn't clear to me where you are with this. Are Orbitz saying that they've contacted BA and they've refused a refund for your particular case or are they just erroneously stating BA policy? I would also be worried about your return flight, which you may be considered a no-show for.
    All they're saying is that British Airways is one of the restrictive airlines. They require that the reservation must be re-booked before the scheduled flight; if not, the value of the ticket will be forfeited. Regrettably, the airlines won't provide an exception. This is what gets me a little. It's like they're suggesting that the cancellation had nothing to do with them and that this is an average run of the mill situation which it's not the strike went on for a number of weeks and got extremely high exposure.
    10e1) We may decide to refuse to give you a refund if you apply for it after the end of the ticket validity period.
    That's what a lot of other posters seem to be ignoring. Surely if any exception MAY be made for request after the TVP then it's when the matter was their fault.

    I've had no satisfaction with Orbitz. I didn't intend this to turn into a debate. I was looking for opinions and advice. I certainly didn't want to have my ears tickled but some people can't seem to be able to pull their oar out. They are of the opinion I was too late and I disagree, simple as that. I feel that the T&C's make provision for a case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    davo10 wrote: »
    There it is, the reason I have no sympathy is that OP was offered a full refund but did not avail of it in time. How many times have you read posts on this consumer issue forum where the OP's feel hard done by because they are not being offered a refund, some who genuinely deserve it, in this case the OP had that offered to him and is now moaning that 7 months later, after the relevant date as per Ts&Cs, he cannot get a refund, I do not see this as a consumer issue, I see this as the OP losing out because of tardiness.

    Sure, I've read it many times but I'd have sympathy for the OPs in the majority of those cases, this one is no different. As I've said, it may turn out to be completely legal, but I still don't get why everybody thinks it's 100% fair that BA should take the money for a service they didn't provide just because OP took over a week to phone them back.
    MyKeyG wrote: »
    All they're saying is that British Airways is one of the restrictive airlines. They require that the reservation must be re-booked before the scheduled flight; if not, the value of the ticket will be forfeited. Regrettably, the airlines won't provide an exception. This is what gets me a little. It's like they're suggesting that the cancellation had nothing to do with them and that this is an average run of the mill situation which it's not the strike went on for a number of weeks and got extremely high exposure. That's what a lot of other posters seem to be ignoring. Surely if any exception MAY be made for request after the TVP then it's when the matter was their fault.

    Perhaps you should try calling BA direct. They may not be willing to discuss your case in particular but should be able to verify whether or not this is company policy. Regardless of what's said in this thread, if BA do enforce this as company policy then attempting to force them to do otherwise might require steps that aren't realistic for you. You could talk to their regulator (the CAA I think) but I have no idea if they have any teeth in these situations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Sorry guys. One more point. I didn't wait 7 months. I did try to make a refund request at the time but none of the numbers provided worked. Anyone wants proof I'll pm them and they can see for themselves. As it turns out I would have become extrememly ill in America.

    Look the fact is we're going around in circles here. The majority of people either feel that I don't deserve a refund or I shouldn't expect one, I disagree. The T&C's allow for exception so those who claim I broke them are simply wrong. And that's a fact. Nobody appears to be ready to change their opinion so debating is futile all that happens is people start to come across offensive to people they don't even know. If people wish to pursue the topic as matter of principle regarding consumer/vendor relationship that's their prerogative.

    I wrote a long detailed letter directly to BA so I'm going to unfollow here (purely because we're getting nowhere) but will come back with a result.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    davo10 wrote: »
    OP we are not judging you but many readers may feel that this situation is mostly of your own making and cannot understand how this is a consumer issue per say, you were advised of the refund/rebook and it makes no difference if it was 1 year, 7 months, 7 weeks or 7 days, The Ts&Cs advised you of the vendors policy and you agreed to them.
    davo let me put it this way. The T&C's say that they may refuse to give a refund. I would be absolutely mad not to pursue the matter in order to see if mine is an extenuating situation.


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